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Ah, Feynman. Great scientist, great teacher, great raconteur. I found a video where he tells this anecdote about the brown-throated thrush. It goes on a bit further:You can know the name of that bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird.
Please elaborate.Though (oddly enough !!) the phrase "the Le Puy route" is correct !!
I’ve heard it first hand, as in “ ..... going to give Jimmy a hug.”I have never heard “Jimmy” before.
I am bit slow ... only now that I saw your comment did it occur to me that terms like "the Del Norte" or "the El Camino trail" grate mainly on the ear of those who are more or less familiar with the language from which these expressions are taken, without any modification or adaptation to English usage. All is forgiven as of now.Please elaborate.
Ah, Feynman. Great scientist, great teacher, great raconteur. I found a video where he tells this anecdote about the brown-throated thrush. It goes on a bit further:
So, I had already learnt [from my father] that names don't constitute knowledge. What he forgot to tell me was that the knowing of names is useful if you want to talk to somebody else so you can tell them what you are talking about.
I think "the Le Puy route" is correct because the name of the town where it starts is "Le Puy" not "Puy". So saying "the Le Puy route" is functionally the same as saying "the Arles route" or "the Vezelay route". If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.Please elaborate.
And does the same apply to “the Del Norte”?
Thank you for your clarification. I did not appreciate that Le Puy was the name of a town. I could have at least checked that out.I think "the Le Puy route" is correct because the name of the town where it starts is "Le Puy" not "Puy". So saying "the Le Puy route" is functionally the same as saying "the Arles route" or "the Vezelay route". If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.
I don't think it is the same with the Norte. Del Norte is not itself a place name. It is either a description or part of a longer name.
Just curious (I have an assumption about it): how do you say "I'm in O Cebreiro" in Spanish and in Galician?
BTW, he who says "the Del Norte" must also say "the Du Puy".
Just curious (I have an assumption about it): how do you say "I'm in O Cebreiro" in Spanish and in Galician?
If I were to drop the definite article in French, out of fear of duplication, and just say "Puy", that would not be the correct name of the town.
Perhaps the Camino Angel reference was made as like in the U.S. the long distant trails: the Appalachian, the Pacific Crest Trail and the Continental Divide Trail have people who volunteer their time, their gas and even homes to help out, give shelter and feed hungry hikers. These people are called Trail Angels. They are very helpful to backpackers.hmmmmm, well IMO people do sometimes overemphasise their "Camino Families" to the detriment of the pilgrimage as such, but to each his own, people can and do have their own purposes on the Camino that won't be in line with my own ideas. No probs.
The second is not wrong, but it's VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused -- it refers to those sorts of weird occurrences where things that you absolutely need just appear to come together for or on a Camino of their own volition, as if spontaneously or through some Hand of God. It does NOT refer to completely mundane and ordinary stuff like getting the last bed in the albergue hours after several people told you it was completely full !!
Again, the third is not wrong, but it's also VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused -- it refers to those other strange occurrences when likely the ONLY person who can help you in some sudden and unexpected distress, for miles and miles around, just pops up seemingly out of the blue at the exact right instant and with the exact right equipment or disposition to provide the exact assistance you need. If it's not seriously weird in that manner, then it's not a "Camino Angel" -- it's just a simple, ordinary, helpful person ....
Yeah, this one seriously annoys me --- just for starters, because no it isn't ; It's our Camino.
But mostly because it's become the trite go-to "excuse" for those wanting to "do the Camino", but without necessary patience to pure and simple walk the Camino.
This one's wrong, sorry -- I've alternately used "the Way" since LONG before that film was ever released, alongside such other expressions as "the Camino", "the Way of Saint James", "the Francès", and so on and so forth ... it's NOT just the title of a certain film.
That one actually amuses me rather than annoys, and I've a lot of forbearance with it, after all not everyone has a knack for foreign languages, and some people can have great difficulties with them through no fault of their own, so one should sympathise and perhaps kindly correct their mistake, with a smile and good will.
Yeah, this is another one of those that's VERY frequently both misunderstood and misused (spoiler alert, there's a FAR larger number of "real pilgrims" than most people realise) -- to be a bit tongue-in-cheek though, could I suggest that you're not a real pilgrim unless you've rid yourself of that sort of judgmentalism ? (which doesn't prevent jokes about busgrinos and taxigrinos and tourigrinos etc)
Perhaps the Camino Angel reference was made as like in the U.S. the long distant trails: the Appalachian, the Pacific Crest Trail and the Continental Divide Trail have people who volunteer their time, their gas and even homes to help out, give shelter and feed hungry hikers. These people are called Trail Angels. They are very helpful to backpackers.
This doesn't tell us anything definitive but I did a Google books search for "trail angel" and "Camino angel" on 20th century books and I got nothing for "Camino angel" but a 1994 use of "trail angel" that didn't even need defining.Nice theory, but the term "Camino Angel" predates the arrival of the PCT crowd on the Camino by about 10 years at least.
It is a superficially similar concept though, and thanks for drawing attention to that !!!
So... why exactly does it bother you?Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!
Listen...because it irritates!So... why exactly does it bother you?
I had a look at Pacific / Appalachian "trail talk" and noticed that they use "The trail provides". It also occurred to me that I hear "Camino angels" and "The Camino provides" mainly in English, so I would not be at all surprised that that's where the phrases originate.This doesn't tell us anything definitive
There is an apocryphal textbook of Dermatological Therapeutics. "If it's wet, dry it. If it's dry, wet it." That covered pretty well everything.Immediately reminded me of this famous flowchart explaining how either duct tape or WD40 are the solution to most engineering problems
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@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)
My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.
One reason they don't pronounce "albergue" correctly is because they think that it is spelled with a "u" in the middle (I just wish that people would learn to pronounce albergue properly.
Like, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.Listen...because it irritates!
Or in the case of politicians...patronises and the use of the word strengthens (in a psychological way) for the “listener” to agree...but, listen, I agree with your point about the English.Like, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.
Me neither.I have never heard “Jimmy” before.
Not Jimmy Bond (007)Me neither.
Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!
Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so”!
I love that podcast tooA recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!
So there are no other threads on this forum for stuff that has nothing to do with the Camino?Personally, I dislike the modern trend of starting a sentence with “so” and a politician who answers a question with the starting word “listen”. Nothing to do with “Camino speak”!
Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.Spanish: Estoy en O Cebreiro
Galician: Estou en O Cebreiro. The expresion "Estou no Cebreiro" would be confusing because Pedrafita do Cebreiro.
As a non-native (English) speaker I would say that native English speakers are adding "sounds" to foreign words. Same as in word Albergue. I call it "singing" and pronouncing "al-bear-gay" (or even al-bear-gee) is just that. This "gay" ending should be pronounced something like "hate" but you have to stop before the "...te". It's not G, it's almost H which is not pronounced as H in English. Hard to explainLike, you need to accept the fact that English speakers quite enjoy adding words that, er, don't exactly add a lot of value but, well, they give us time to think what we are going to say next, you know what I mean. Spanish speakers have their own words that fulfill the same function, in a manner of speaking.
Thanks for the info. Anyone on here know the title of the podcast?A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!
Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.
But there goes my theory. I expected it to be no Cebreiro.
When I first noticed that there are place names starting with O in Galicia, like O Cebreiro or O Castro, I thought it means at or in, like the French word au. I know now that it denotes the definite article the, similar to French place names starting with the definite article le, such as Le Puy-en-Velay.
PS: Ooh, we can add something to the "annoyance" list: people who use an apostrophe and write the name of the village as O'Cebreiro. I was once one of them.
Do this: go to Google Translate, set-up as shown below, enter albergue into the box for English and click on the loudspeaker icons in the English box and in the Spanish box. Endless fun guaranteed ... ;-).Hard to explain
Did find the title...will listen with interest!I love that podcast too
Just to be clear about it: this thread is not about accents or mistakes when speaking or writing in a foreign language. It's about language use and pronunciation in one language only (i.e. one's own language or a language one is reasonably fluent in). Perhaps it's difficult to explain why this can be a funny / intriguing / interesting / educational topic of conversation ...Anyone who teaches a foreign language will tell you that the goal of language is to communicate! So I would not worry too much about whether the accent is in the wrong place.
O'Dang it! I'm not supposed to use an apostrophe like that any more?Thank you. I had noticed that a Galician speaker was following the thread and hoped you would reply.
But there goes my theory. I expected it to be no Cebreiro.
When I first noticed that there are place names starting with O in Galicia, like O Cebreiro or O Castro, I thought it means at or in, like the French word au. I know now that it denotes the definite article the, similar to French place names starting with the definite article le, such as Le Puy-en-Velay.
PS: Ooh, we can add something to the "annoyance" list: people who use an apostrophe and write the name of the village as O'Cebreiro. I was once one of them.
I suppose this whole area of conversation could be a new thread in and of itself. You launguage buffs are O'so smart and I get completely lost. Hey, I'm having fun using apostrophes inappropiately, seriously! I was at least able to learn to do that!Just to be clear about it: this thread is not about accents or mistakes when speaking or writing in a foreign language. It's about language use and pronunciation in one language only (i.e. one's own language or a language one is reasonably fluent in). Perhaps it's difficult to explain why this is can be a funny / intriguing / interesting / educational topic of conversation ...
Can’t help it...I can’t be serious!BB, you always come up with such hilarious comics and videos!
I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.I suppose this whole area of conversation could be a new thread in and of itself. You launguage buffs are O'so smart and I get completely lost. Hey, I'm having fun using apostrophes inappropiately, seriously! I was at least able to learn to do that!
Ive’ been using apostrophes’ even more inappropriately since the 50s’I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.
Smart cookie, CC!O'Dang it! I'm not supposed to use an apostrophe like that any more?
Sir, you must be the one who set them all loose one day. I nearly choked when I saw: Soup’s, sandwiche’s, tea’s. I now still grimace, but it is not the end of the world, far far from it!I've been using apostrophes inappropriately ever since the 60's.
@C clearlyOne reason they don't pronounce "albergue" correctly is because they think that it is spelled with a "u" in the middle (alburgue" . I see it misspelled frequently here on the forum.
Regarding the pronunciation of foreign words in an English sentence, I agree that it can sometimes sound pretentious. For example, I never refer to "Roma" or "Sevilla" in an English sentence. However, I would always put the stress on the first syllable of Mérida, even though English-speakers have a natural tendency to put it on the second syllable. In the case of "albergue", there is no adequate translation to English, so we must use the Spanish word. It is entirely possible for an English-speaker to pronounce "Al (as in Al the Optimist) - bare - gay" without sounding pretentious.
I think that's often autocorrect. I've experienced it myself.Sir, you must be the one who set them all loose one day. I nearly choked when I saw: Soup’s, sandwiche’s, tea’s.
A recent(ish) episode of the excellent podcast Lexicon Valley was dedicated to the history of that trend and the reasons behind it. Very interesting. Great podcast in general, I recommend it!
I guess.... except the movie “The Way” came out several hundred years after the Camino was called “The Way” ...... of St James or The French Way, The North WayPeople who call the Camino "the way" after the film. No reason, it is the direct translation I guess, but it just annoys me.
Haha I heard that one yesterday and just chuckled and shut up."the El Camino"
Or in extreme cases "the El Camino trail"
but I have found myself referring to Sevilla in either the Spanish or English form, with no particular reason that I can determine,
I agree that I get inconsistent as well, find it hard to decide how to pronounce some Spanish place names in an English sentence.I am certain that it has nothing to do with being pretentious, but it is a curious inconsistency.
I should clarify - I don't think it is pretentious in most cases, but it can sometimes "sound" a bit so.Regarding the pronunciation of foreign words in an English sentence, I agree that it can sometimes sound pretentious.
Or would that be "Roma?"Perhaps it’s a case of when in Rome..
Touché ....Oh! Here we are again!Or would that be "Roma?"
I don’t think it’s pretentious at all! Everything doesn’t have to be Anglicised! I like a coq au vin...but don’t pronounce the vin as in bin!
Perhaps it’s a case of when in Rome..
It reinforces the idea that there is, and always was, one narrowly defined way, the one marked by yellow arrows. I know how much many people love the yellow arrows but following them sometimes gave me the feeling as if walking in a hamster wheel ... but then for a huge first part of my walk to Santiago I did not follow any arrows or any "official" way or Way whatsoever.I guess.... except the movie “The Way” came out several hundred years after the Camino was called “The Way” ...... of St James or The French Way, The North Way
Same here, and strangely enough, I noticed that I do this with the name of Sevilla in particular, like you do. This reminds me that, initially, I knew the monastery in the Pyrenees only as Roncevaux and it took me a while to think of it as Roncesvalles. I noticed that the English Wikipedia has an entry on the location of Roncesvalles but calls the (real or fictive) Charlemagne battle the Battle of Roncevaux Pass.@C clearlyI have wondered myself why I use one or the other, but I really don't know. I am certain that it has nothing to do with being pretentious, but it is a curious inconsistency.
I once tried to find out when it became common usage to call that long sequence of roads from SJPP - or from Puente la Reina - the Camino Frances, or its Latin equivalent, but failed.
I knew the monastery in the Pyrenees only as Roncevaux and it took me a while to think of it as Roncesvalles. I noticed that the English Wikipedia has an entry on the location of Roncesvalles but calls the (real or fictive) Charlemagne battle the Battle of Roncevaux Pass.
I'm trying to find out when the "100 kilometer requirement " began.
Is the year 1993 correct?
Truly...was it a Galician marketing gimmick?
And, what does the cathedral have to do with that requirement? Nothing I'm guessing.
In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela" or certification other than a shell, which I believe was received at the finish, not the beginning.
Correct?
Thanks!
When someone says they are going to do the “full Camino”.
What the?!?
The certificates that preceded the contemporary Compostela were not called a Compostela but they have been in existence for hundreds of years. As you can see in the image of one of these certificates shown in an earlier post, there's a fundamental difference between now and then: the earlier certificates usually confirmed that the pilgrim had visited the Cathedral ("the most holy church"), had made confession, had been granted absolution and had taken the Holy Eucharist. The pilgrimage certificate was given to Christians only, and after the Reformation to Catholics only, who qualified and had fulfilled their religious obligations. Today, to receive a Compostela, you don't have to be Catholic, you even don't need to be baptised, you just have to (tacitly) confirm that you made the pilgrimage with "at least an attitude of search" and "for spiritual reasons". I'm not sure that it's clear to everyone what they mean. It isn't to me.In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela" or certification other than a shell, which I believe was received at the finish, not the beginning. Correct?
I have to say that I never tire of hearing or saying "Buen Camino". I just wish that people would learn to pronounce albergue properly. And I almost hit one pilgrim over the head with my hiking poles when he kept calling the Meseta the Masada.
In deference to those who dislike the “click clack” of walking sticks I Always put mine away when walking thru cobbled or paved areas. It annoys me too espwcially at 5:00 a.m. as the early risers get up and get clackingThe solution to the "click clack" of unsheathed walking sticks is to buy and hand out inexpensive rubber tips (gomas de bastones). I usually carry a half-dozen spares for this purpose, and to replace the one that is usually always sacrificed to the 'mud god' on each of my Caminos so far...never fails.
In most China Bazars and outdoor stores in Spain, you can usually find them near the cash register, in a bowl and CHEAP, like a euro or so each. Compare that to 2 for maybe USD 10 at REI.
The size is fairly standard, 12 mm inner diameter IIRC. So, anyone can use them. The very few times that the tips have been too large, I recommend a turn or two of Duck tape to fill the gap. Works every time...
WHAT, you don't carry a small roll of Duck tape or Gorilla Tape? Get thee to thy nearest DIY or office supply store! You can find a variant of duck tape in 1 inch or less widths. I was able to get 1/2 inch Duck Brand tape at a office supply store. My DIY stores typically do not have less than 1" widths. It is all good. There is no end to the clever stuff you can do with this tape.
You might do this out of simple consideration for others. If picking up other folks rubbish is considered a good thing, then giving out noise-pollution silencing rubber tips is as good, at least IMHO.
This is a great icebreaker at a rest stop too. If you follow someone who does the 'clicky-clacky' thing, just introduce yourself and give them tips. It is a win-win. You meet someone new. They might buy you a beer. That could balance out your original investment...
Pay it forward pilgrims...
Thanks for my morning laugh. Is it similar to what @Al the optimist said in #47, "What annoys me is that nothing anyone says annoys me."?What annoys me is annoyance over annoyance that ought not to be annoyed about.
These days seems a lot of people get annoyed over anything. It's like starting the day with:
"Well, let's see what I can be annoyed about today". Now that annoys the annoyance out of me!
Let it Be. Be Happy!
Now, how's that to start the day? Better than being annoyed I guess!Thanks for my morning laugh. Is it similar to what @Al the optimist said in #47, "What annoys me is that nothing anyone says annoys me."?
I usually wake up grumpy....but her mood improves..Now, how's that to start the day? Better than being annoyed I guess!
The certificates that preceded the contemporary Compostela were not called a Compostela but they have been in existence for hundreds of years. As you can see in the image of one of these certificates shown in an earlier post, there's a fundamental difference between now and then: the earlier certificates usually confirmed that the pilgrim had visited the Cathedral ("the most holy church"), had made confession, had been granted absolution and had taken the Holy Eucharist. The pilgrimage certificate was given to Christians only, and after the Reformation to Catholics only, who qualified and had fulfilled their religious obligations. Today, to receive a Compostela, you don't have to be Catholic, you even don't need to be baptised, you just have to (tacitly) confirm that you made the pilgrimage with "at least an attitude of search" and "for spiritual reasons". I'm not sure that it's clear to everyone what they mean. It isn't to me.
The question was: "In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela".With the greatest respect, Kathar1na, you're quibbling -- the important things are the realities, not the names we attach to them. This is indeed a fundamental lesson of the Camino !!
This topic has been passionately discussed in the past on this forum. I just came across an article in La Voz de Galicia from 2013 that deals with a written reply that the Dean of the Santiago Cathedral gave to R. Joos, the author of Camino guidebooks in German. The title of the article is El Cabildo considera que hay que vivir el Camino 4 o 5 días», asegura el deán Segundo Pérez and there is a similar sentence at the end of the article: "pasar en el Camino 4 o 5 días para vivir la experiencia interior"."100 kilometer requirement"
The question was: "In older writings on the Camino, I don't see any reference to a "Compostela".
My answer was: "That's because they did not call them a Compostela in those days".
Then I pointed out an important difference between prior and current content of the text.
@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)
My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.
Have you seen plan bon YouTube?I hate that one too!
For me, it's "Plan B".
Same difference .
Jill
How about Camino Gang or Camino Posse?@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)
My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.
In deference to those who dislike the “click clack” of walking sticks I Always put mine away when walking thru cobbled or paved areas. It annoys me too espwcially at 5:00 a.m. as the early risers get up and get clacking
Ha, sure, why not!How about Camino Gang or Camino Posse?
It may be my age, it may be the damage that I have absorbed during my time on this earth, but I sometimes get annoyed! Some of the random titles applied and phrases used about the Camino really annoy me. I here include a few for your honest appraisal.
My Camino Family!!!!!!!
The Camino will provide!!!!!
Camino Angels!!!!!!
I will await with baited breath your honest and sincere reply
I hate that noise too, but I couldn’t walk without my poles. BUT I have big nobbly rubber tips on them all the time so as not to annoy anyone (or at least I certainly hope I don’t)Now the poles get to me too, but they do come in handy sometimes
I totally concur.@rector, Pilgrims who say the three things you have listed I believe are being sincere and not trite. What better place to express such phrases than while walking these amazing pilgrimages. They most likely have...
1. Had a "camino family" they walked with and gotten to know, thus enriching their personal experience
2. Had the "camino provide" for them in a small way, possibly as small as some chocolate given to them when they'd run out of food
3. Have had some person come to their aid in a helpful and sincere fashion, thus becoming a "camino angel" to them. (There is a "David" on this forum who is literally a walking first aid kit to anyone who needs assistance. I would call him a camino angel.)
My honest appraisal is that I personally am not annoyed by these phrases.