A Complicated History...and Small Acts of Redemption

[VNwalking]

From ignorance and distance I had once thought of Spain as a 'Catholic country' with a complicated history but now having walked the Camino a few times, I realize her history is even more complex than my simplistic ideas could imagine: it has been a good 'reality check.'

Yesterday, there it was again. Following links from a recent thread (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...ips-off-the-camino-frances.41811/#post-426294), I was one again struck by the irony that while we walk this old and still living pilgrimage way, we encounter ruined monasteries and sanctuaries, empty or locked churches--and many monastic jewels ironically turned into luxury hotels.

Wanting to understand more deeply about the why and how of all this, I didn't have far to go: a cursory internet search explained a lot--and how it comes that bits of Spanish monasteries turn up as curiosities in strange places like NYC and Florida:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_confiscations_of_Mendizábal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_confiscation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categ...lished_during_the_Spanish_confiscation_period

On the Camino, we walk through a very haunted landscape.

Sharing these links for interest's sake as well as in the hopes of getting your recommendations for further reading. I can't help but think that the Spanish Civil War as merely a continuation of the same power struggles in a different guise, and wonder if there is anything written about this.

Life only moves in one direction, and things are as they are...but...so much loss and human suffering is a sad thing. Good thing we can all walk, and the thousands of people who help us along the way can do what they do so beautifully. Most peregrinos are visitors to Spain, but together our presence is an undeniable force, energetically and economically--and people in the villages and towns along the way respond with kindness and support as they have for centuries. By putting our bodies there each of us keeps the spirit of the Camino alive, in spite of everything. In these troubled times, the service and our footsteps are an affirmation and a redemption.

Buen Camino everyone. And thank you.

 

[Castilian]

I can't help but think that the Spanish Civil War as merely a continuation of the same power struggles in a different guise, and wonder if there is anything written about this.

If you are asking about religion, politics and the Civil war, yes there are writtens about it. The Wikipedia in Spanish has some long articles that may be of your interest as a starting point (use an online translator if necessary because the version of these articles on the Wikipedia in English, when available, is poor):

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuestión_religiosa_en_la_Segunda_República_Española (this article talks about the Religious question on the period between the one covered on your links and the Civil war including also -some- info about the Civil war period). Among the links to other articles available on that article, this one might be of your interest because it refers to lost of religious patrimony: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quema_de_conventos_de_1931_en_España (1931's burning of convents in Spain). There were also burnings and other attacks to religious buildings during the Revolution of October of 1934 (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_de_1934).

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_católica_y_Guerra_Civil_Española (about the role played by the Catholic church on the Civil War)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecución_religiosa_durante_la_Guerra_Civil_Española (Religious persecution during the Civil War. It includes on point 4 some info about lost Religious patrimony)

 

[C clearly]

Yes, the history is certainly interesting and complicated. I am not much of a history student, but have dabbled in occasional reading about Spain, including some non-fiction and a lot of fiction too. [I like to say that most of what I know about the world, I learned not in Kindergarten but in novels.

Thanks for those links. I'll browse through them.

 

[VNwalking]

If you are asking about religion, politics and the Civil war

Obviously I'm not wanting to discuss that here as it's not the place to do that (and is against the Foum's rules)--but am glad to have that information, @Castilian. Thank you. It makes for very painful reading--and the living of those years (on either side) must have been pure hell. It makes me that much more aware that we peregrinos walk through a land that is still tender, and hopefully healing.
Hatred never ceases by hatred...so yes--let's keep walking, and talking to each other.

For anyone looking for books in English I found these about the Civil War and the church:
The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth-Century Spain by Paul Preston
Gunpowder and Incense: The Catholic Church and the Spanish Civil War by Hilari Raguer
There's not much I can find in English about the monastic clearances in the 19th Century, other than the Wikipedia entries.

 

[Kanga]

Please take care people. We usually have to close these threads. Remember - NO political discussions.

 

[Felipe]

Please take care people. We usually have to close these threads. Remember - NO political discussions.

OK, duly noted.
What impressed me the first time I walked the Camino, and read the inscriptions on the monuments and the information on interpretative panels, was the incredible succession of many different groups and cultures in the history of Spain. The hominids of Atapuerca, pre-Celts, Ancient Iberians, Romans, Basques, Visigoths, Franks, Jews, Moors...
I noticed, after Estella, many inscriptions related to Carlista wars -a movement with a complicated history, too.

 

[domigee]

Please take care people. We usually have to close these threads. Remember - NO political discussions.

And if I may...the same in Spain. One pilgrim last year on VdlP was making loud random comments about a well-known political figure, now deceased.... He thought he was funny but the poor hospitalera was very upset. I had to soothe things up but it wasn't nice.

 

[VNwalking]

Remember - NO political discussions.

Yes, thank you Kanga--trying to understand history that is too recent can too easily devolve into a discussion about politics which wasn't my intention. We'll try to play nicely.
What moves me while walking (and now also in retrospect) is the many layers of human pain that have occurred in Spain from antiquity until very recently--what you refer to @filipe. Yet in spite of all the complicated history, the thread of the Camino has survived and thrives.

And if I may...the same in Spain.

@domigee, thank you for that. Yes. It is impossible for those of us from other places to understand how the events of the Civil War still resonate painfully--especially as most of us are pretty ignorant about it to begin with.
Forum members who live in Spain might have more nuanced advice, but without fluency and sensitivity it's probably a good rule of thumb to talk about something else.

 

[Kanga]

It is a very divisive topic. Hence off-limits.

 

[VNwalking]

Is it really so simple?

You're right @Kathar1na...it probably never is.
Am I the only one who feels sadness about the ruined (or depleted/repurposed) monasteries? Once I would have been more interested in the archtecture and art...but now am mostly aware of the emptiness.

It is a very divisive topic. Hence off-limits. Nuanced or not.

Please forgive me, @Kanga, I didn't mean to stray into a minefield--a perfect example of the cultural insensitivity that @domigee described. So on that particular topic, enough said.

 

[Kanga]

All is well. I'm trawling through our own election results. 5 days after the election and we are waiting on a handful of votes to get a result. And no, this is NOT an excuse to discuss any country's politics!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I've asked similar questions endlessly since moving to Spain. There are some simplistic answers, but very little English-language material.
If you study history and economics you can see why the monasteries in Spain had to go -- a third of the adult population was under religious vows, and the rest of the country was expected to support them, as well as a wastrel ruling class. The center couldn't hold.

The Mendizibal seizure and sale of monastic houses is especially difficult to source. I recently co-wrote a history of Monastery San Anton in Castrojeriz, which ceased to exist just before then. Much of its artistic patrimony simply vanished. The rich got a lot richer through those years.

The 1920s were a gold-rush in Spain, too, with priceless cloisters and entire walls and ceilings of frescoes vanishing from the countryside and reappearing in uptown Manhattan, Milwaukee, and all over "private collections." The little church in my village was stripped of its retablo -- legend says it was sold off by the parish priest, who thought the locals didn't know what they had and didn't care.

There still seems to be masses of monasteries and churches in Spain, but there once were twice that number, each tiny village with its priest or monastic house. Think about the artistic patrimony they contained. Where did it all go? Where is it now? Fascinating. Someone should write a book.

 

[Kanga]

Gosh @Rebekah Scott I wonder who would be good at that? Looking forward to the new one!

 

[SYates]

... Think about the artistic patrimony they contained. Where did it all go? Where is it now? Fascinating. Someone should write a book.

Look in a mirror SY

 

[VNwalking]

Someone should write a book.

Someone should. Next?
Meanwhile I hope the most recent one has found the perfect agent!!

 

[VNwalking]

Where did it all go? Where is it now? Fascinating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
This place is astonishing. @Kathar1na, you're right but maybe not in the way you intended. This is only one of the places artistic patrimony went...and it's not just from Spain. There's plenty of French treasure there too.

 

[NualaOC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
This place is astonishing. @Kathar1na, you're right but maybe not in the way you intended. This is only one of the places artistic patrimony went...and it's not just from Spain. There's plenty of French treasure there too.

Interesting thread @Viranani - thanks for starting it and thanks to all who have contributed so sensitively.

I agree 100% about The Cloisters - it's a fascinating place in so many ways. I couldn't quite decide how I felt about these treasures being preserved (bought, transported etc.) so far from their natural home. Having read the links in this thread, I'm thinking about it again - but I suppose that's an important function of good museums and curators. They make us think (and not just about the artefacts) long after our visit.

 

[VNwalking]

I couldn't quite decide how I felt about these treasures being preserved (bought, transported etc.) so far from their natural home.

I had the same mixed feelings, Nuala. They're preserved and shared rather than deteriorating...but a town or village someplace is missing its retablo (or whatever)--and there are no longer the monastic communities bringing the life to the stones that the builders intended.
I find places like San Anton haunting--I can't help but think as I walk under the arch of its planning, building, and joyful dedication--to say nothing of the labor and love that happened there for so long to heal the sick and leave food for pilgrims. Now? Pffft...Empty windows, roofless arches, and the rattle of tree branches in the strong March wind.
Everything changes, nothing remains.

 

[NualaOC]

I had the same mixed feelings, Nuala. They're preserved and shared rather than deteriorating...but a town or village someplace is missing its retablo (or whatever)--and there are no longer the monastic communities bringing the life to the stones that the builders intended.
I find places like San Anton haunting--I can't help but think as I walk under the arch of its planning, building, and joyful dedication--to say nothing of the labor and love that happened there for so long to heal the sick and leave food for pilgrims. Now? Pffft...Empty windows, roofless arches, and the rattle of tree branches in the strong March wind.
Everything changes, nothing remains.

Indeed. But I suppose that mixed feelings are a good thing - there are many layers of meaning and simplistic interpretations can be disrespectful, especially when we are visitors in another land. But then again, we're global citizens too and the same issues crop up in different guises throughout the world......

To be honest, I have more mixed feelings when in elaborate and gold-adorned cathedrals (not specifically in Spain) than in ruined monasteries. But that's another issue and definitely not for this forum!

 

[domigee]

Interesting thread @Viranani -
I couldn't quite decide how I felt about these treasures being preserved (bought, transported etc.) so far from their natural home. Having read the links in this thread, I'm thinking about it again - but I suppose that's an important function of good museums and curators. They make us think (and not just about the artefacts) long after our visit.

I'm extrapolating a bit here as it isn't about Spain (sorry) but ...Turkey. The archaeological museum in Ankara is full of treasures that were transported there from every corner of the country, even whole murals detached from their original home. I was delighted to have it all there but at the same time was horrified at the destruction of the 'original' place.
Then I thought 'Of course! How could they possibly be protected and preserved in such large, unpopulated areas?!" (Lots came from the Anatolian desert).

Food for thought.

 

[GettingThere]

Where did it all go? Museums in virtually every major (and minor) city in western countries with historical art collections have a section of early medieval art - this art is often largely from churches and monasteries all over Europe. I have long found these collections profoundly uncomfortable to wander through, knowing that much of that art was either looted during wars, taken as souvenirs by traveling aristocrats, or simply sold off, not always by the rightful owners. I stand in front of some glorious masterpiece of a retablo, or a painting which was once a panel of a much larger work, and just feel sad and a little angry. Yes they are being preserved, wonderfully cared for by dedicated museum staff, but a piece of German or French or Spanish monastery is sitting in a museum on the other side of the world. And maybe the place they came from is gone now, or maybe it's not. Of course, the same has happened with sacred artefacts from many non-European cultures too, now sitting in foreign museums and in some cases, finally, starting to be reclaimed as their owners' voices start to be heard, and finding their way home.

 

[Pelegrin]

To give an example:
The monastery of Sobrado dos Monxes in Camino del Norte was abandoned in 1835 after the Mendizábal law and completely ruined. Fortunately in 1966 was recovered by the Cistercian Order and now is an important point on Camino del Norte.
The same happened to Monfero monastery, about 30 Kms from Sobrado, but in this case it still under reconstruction.
Before Mendizabal law, both Monfero and Sobrado were the owners of almost all the land and the peasants had to pay a rent for it. My ancestors had to pay rent to Monfero. After Mendizábal law the peasants bought the confiscated land and 1 hectare of this land now is mine.

 

[VNwalking]

To be honest, I have more mixed feelings when in elaborate and gold-adorned cathedrals (not specifically in Spain) than in ruined monasteries. But that's another issue and definitely not for this forum!

Me too.

I stand in front of some glorious masterpiece of a retablo, or a painting which was once a panel of a much larger work, and just feel sad and a little angry. Yes they are being preserved, wonderfully cared for by dedicated museum staff, but a piece of German or French or Spanish monastery is sitting in a museum on the other side of the world. And maybe the place they came from is gone now, or maybe it's not.

I guess we're witnessing the inevitable slow transformation that takes something historical and moves it into the realm of archaeology. We still understand what these buildings were, and have a connection with that--hence the poignancy--but the conditions that allowed them to function have long since dissolved. Interesting middle ground.

Food for thought.

Indeed!
Thanks everyone, and to @Kanga for her even-handed moderation--this discussion has definitely been thought provoking. And I see that what I thought was sadness is actually a romantic nostalgia for something both unknowable and irretrievable. And perhaps not so nice.

My ancestors had to pay rent to Monfero. After Mendizábal law the peasants bought the confiscated land and 1 hectare of this land now is mine.

See? How good is that?! Fortunate indeed, @Pelegrin, no doubt for many others too--the best of both worlds, much better than before.
OK. I can definitely see it's time to let go of the sadness thing about this.

 

[Felipe]

I admire and respect the religious orders, and religious in general. But we can't forget that in Spain they were frequently feudal lords that exacted forced labor and taxes from peasants and city dwellers (the "burgueses"). When we say that "this religious order built this or that marvelous monastery", well, we can't take that literally. True, the relationship between lords and serfs was typical of this age, and had its reasons; sometimes it was of mutual benefice in those violent times. But sometimes it went very wrong. The village and peasants of Sahagún revolted many times against the benedictines; and the much admired bishop Gelmirez (the main builder of Compostela cathedral) suffered serious revolts against his authority and demands. That's why kings became very popular (as we can see in traditional folktales), as they gave some kind of protection against local abuses.

 

[Castilian]

Think about the artistic patrimony they contained. Where did it all go? Where is it now? Fascinating

Tons of examples, of different cases, of different destinations... Some info about the case of the Monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos can be found at http://tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com/2013/04/monasterios-burgaleses-santo-domingo-de.html just to quote an example.

The village and peasants of Sahagún revolted many times against the benedictines

It reminds me when back in 2009 and 2010 some locals of Rabanal del Camino requested the Benedictines in town to go home. I don't recall how it ended though. But surely an online search will give you plenty of info about what happened (mostly in Spanish, I guess) if you were interested.

 

[mspath]

Read more about the Rabanal protest mentioned by Castilian in this earlier Forum thread.
The monks left but eventually returned to Rabanal. See this later Forum thread re the changes made at the abbey.

 

[Albertagirl]

We have seen, perhaps particularly in Carrion de los Condes, how the religious orders serve pilgrims today. Time and change happen to all things. But the impulse to service which is central to the religious life continues on the camino, in both the active and contemplative communities. They have let go of their past to a great extent, and are going on with their service. I regret real losses, such as libraries sold off and works of art disappearing. But the meaning and the activities of religious life continue. Thanks to all who respond to their calling and serve pilgrims through worship and hospitality.

 

[Tincatinker]

It was not all just greed and power grabs and violence, it was also progress - beneficial progress for many.

"...and when the beatings stopped I thought perhaps they cared, but actually they just didn't need my labour any more." Sorry Kathar1na but I can't source the quote at the moment - I'll need to ask my mum. The usurpation of church property by secular power did indeed occur throughout Europe from C15c onwards, a continuance of the suppression of the Templars (though that was an interesting consistence of church and state), and as a means of securing land and wealth without resorting to war. The lot of the landed or un-landed peasant in Europe remained much the same until the agrarian and industrial revolutions. It didn't really matter which master you served it was still the master that carried the stick.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Thank you all for such an interesting thread. Belief, dogma, religion, power, fear, greed, envy....nothing to see here then

 

[stevenjarvis]

Thank you all for such an interesting thread. Belief, dogma, religion, power, fear, greed, envy....nothing to see here then
"Usurpation" ... great word , thank you Tincatinker

Is anyone else having difficulty with the forum being s l o w ..... to load ? and the weirdest error message ....
The following error occurred:
You must wait at least 171 seconds before performing this action.

 

[Tincatinker]

they just were not needed anymore.

Yes, their 'raison d'etre' declined but it was the seizure of property and artefact that brought about their fall. Most monasteries were essentially agrarian communes with access to 'free' labour and donated wealth. The seizures of land and the popular revolts against indentured labour broke the business model.

 

[Tincatinker]

Is anyone else having difficulty with the forum being s l o w ..... to load ? and the weirdest error message ....
The following error occurred:
You must wait at least 171 seconds before performing this action.

Nope. But I just did burn my supper 'cos I got locked into this thread. Looks like me & Little Dog are on 'fridge remnants tonight. Any-one fed up with the Menu Peregrino is welcome to meatballs with charcoal rice

 

[C clearly]

I see that what I thought was sadness is actually a romantic nostalgia for something both unknowable and irretrievable. And perhaps not so nice.

I had an ongoing discussion on my last camino with a walking companion along those lines.

You are not necessarily "being hard on yourself" in drawing that conclusion. I have found that it frees me from the compulsion to constantly "know" and "retrieve," and allows me to enjoy the present as it is.

You may recall that I questioned your use of the word "sad" on the thread about technology. I think it is a similar situation.

A bit of romantic nostalgia is wonderful, but we should be aware that it is a limited picture.

 

[VNwalking]

Thank you all for such an interesting thread. Belief, dogma, religion, power, fear, greed, envy....nothing to see here then

Don't be so harsh with yourself.

Thank you Katharina, I wasn't. It as more of an 'aha moment' when I saw something clearly that I hadn't been aware of before.

We have seen, perhaps particularly in Carrion de los Condes, how the religious orders serve pilgrims today.

back in 2009 and 2010 some locals of Rabanal del Camino requested the Benedictines in town to go home

As a relative newbie, I as unaware that this had happened. It makes for 'interesting' reading--actually I felt like a voyeur at a family squabble. Fascinating and repelling at the same time. I had always assumed the presence of peaceful religious would be welcome in a community. But obviously even in very small villages things can get complicated (actually, especially in very small villages, but that's another story).
This sheds a different, harsher, but more realistic light on the effect we all have en masse on small local communities: even the 'redemption' is complicated. I hope in the years since that harmony and mutual sensitivity has been purposefully and carefully cultivated so that the Benedictines can continue to remain and serve there for a long time.

A bit of romantic nostalgia is wonderful

Nah, C clearly...total waste of time.
Besides, as this thread has amply demonstrated...the truth is much more interesting. As @stevenjarvis says...whew.

I feel a bit elated by all the things that I discovered by following various lines of happy investigation initated by this thread.
I'm a fan of the principle of "fundamental interconnectedness of all things" and, among other stuff, I found an interesting map of the settlements of the Antonine order, paid a virtual visit to the Isenheim altar and discovered a serious mistake on page 202 of the Complete Cultural Handbook for the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago - all interconnected.

Love it, Katharina!
But am very sorry your supper got burnt, @Tincatinker. If we ever meet on the way, allow me to shout you one-- I suspect the conversation would be most interesting!

 

[VNwalking]

Tons of examples, of different cases, of different destinations... Some info about the case of the Monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos can be found at http://tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com/2013/04/monasterios-burgaleses-santo-domingo-de.html just to quote an example.

Having just been there, I found this fascinating--SDdS didn't end up gutted (like San Pedro de Arlanza) thanks to the Abbot's foresight when things turned bad, a bit of luck, and locals hiding invaluable books in attics...what a story.
@Rebekah Scott...it would definitely make a good book.

 

[domigee]

But am very sorry your supper got burnt, @Tincatinker. !

Me too

 

[Tincatinker]

Me & Little Dog made do with salad & stuff from the garden - the Jackdaws had the 'crispy' rice and other stuff. And I continue to count myself lucky that I have sufficient wealth and strength to never depend on church or state for my very existence or to be subject to force of arms against my will. Very lucky...

 

[SYates]

I hope little doggie (pretty picture pretty please) also got some meat balls ;-) SY

 

[Castilian]

It was not all just greed and power grabs and violence, it was also scientific and social progress - beneficial progress for many.

The word scientific reminded me of the role played by the church on the creation of universities like the University of Santiago de Compostela. A brief history of that university can be found, in English, at www.usc.es/en/info_xeral/historia/index.html

P.S.: I'm glad to see that @Tincatinker and his dog had a dinner despite this thread... but it's a pity the original supper got burnt.

 

[Tincatinker]

Little Dog on Hadrian's Wall - and she says the meat-balls were 'interesting'..

 

[VNwalking]

I love this place. In less than 24 hours we went from empty monasteries to 'that which must not be named' to the usurpation of church property to the Rabinal monks' eviction* to romantic nostalgia to Tincatinker and Little Dog's dinner and pics of her on Hadrian's Wall. Marvelous.
Thanks everyone, this is an unexpectedly rich thread!
*[Only slightly off topic--I wonder how things stand for the monks in Rabinal now, 7 years on. Does anyone know if things have gotten truly healed--or has the rift there just been 'papered over' ...??]

 

[SYates]

Actually the original monks came all from Santo Domingo de Silos, near Burgos, the change to be under the supervision of a Bavarian monastery is a completely other story. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Priscilla NC]

I'm just catching up on forum reading, and I love this thread. Thank you all.

I've been back from the CF for a month, and one of the things I vowed as I walked was to get a better grip on Spanish history. But one of my interests has to do with the fact that the church (Basilica, really) that I worship in was built by the Spanish architect Guastavino in the early 1900s. It's an amazing place, and the main altar piece (I know there's a better name for this) that holds the crucifix, is known to have come from a church in northern Spain. All along the Camino I found likenesses of this.

Evidently we do not know anything more about this piece. I'd love to learn! Sounds like part of the complicated history of foraging in Spanish churches.

I will bookmark this thread and do more research. Thanks, all!

 

[mspath]

I'm just catching up on forum reading, and I love this thread. Thank you all.

I've been back from the CF for a month, and one of the things I vowed as I walked was to get a better grip on Spanish history. But one of my interests has to do with the fact that the church (Basilica, really) that I worship in was built by the Spanish architect Guastavino in the early 1900s. It's an amazing place, and the main altar piece (I know there's a better name for this) that holds the crucifix, is known to have come from a church in northern Spain. All along the Camino I found likenesses of this.

Evidently we do not know anything more about this piece. I'd love to learn! Sounds like part of the complicated history of foraging in Spanish churches.

I will bookmark this thread and do more research. Thanks, all!

I trust that you have read this web account re Rafael Gustavino who was the architect of your church, the Basilica of Saint Lawrence. Gustavino is well known in American architectural history especially for his unique system of tile and mortar supporting arches used late 19thc mainly in northeast US, including your church, nearby Biltmore, and particularly in Boston and New York City. His NYC buildings which are city landmarks include Grant's Tomb, the Great Hall at Ellis Island, Grand Central Station, and Carnegie Hall. How fortunate you are to worship in such a special space as he designed for Saint Lawrence Basilica.

 

[Priscilla NC]

I trust that you have read this web account re Rafael Gustavino who was the architect of your church, the Basilica of Saint Lawrence. Gustavino is well known in American architectural history especially for his unique system of tile and mortar supporting arches used late 19thc mainly in northeast US, including your church, nearby Biltmore7, and particularly in Boston and New York City. His NYC buildings which are city landmarks include Grant's Tomb, the Great Hall at Ellis Island, Grand Central Station, and Carnegie Hall. How fortunate you are to worship in such a special space as he designed for Saint Lawrence Basilica.

Yes, mspath, I am indeed blessed to be worshiping here, it is an amazing space. When I moved here last summer, I had already been planning my Camino, so I was fascinated to learn the history of this Basilica. So when I walked, I was interested in church architecture along The Way. After I returned, I cried when I re-entered this space, now having a deeper appreciation. This is one reason why I really want to know more about the history of Spain through the ages.

There's a woman in the congregation who has a vast knowledge of Guastavino, and she leads the tours of the church. I will be meeting with her soon to show her some of my pictures and to ask more questions!

 

[VNwalking]

Pricilla, it would be amazing if you found out that the retablo in St Lawrence had been foraged from someplace with a Camino connection.
Stranger things have happened...
welcome back and happy learning!

 

[Priscilla NC]

Pricilla, it would be amazing if you found out that the retablo in St Lawrence had been foraged from someplace with a Camino connection.
Stranger things have happened...
welcome back and happy learning!

Yes, Viranani, I would love to find that connection. You can bet that I will share any connections I find!

 

[VNwalking]

. You can bet that I will share any connections I find!

I'm looking forward to seeing that thread, Priscilla; good luck and have fun!

 

[Castilian]

There's a woman in the congregation who has a vast knowledge of Guastavino, and she leads the tours of the church.

Pricilla, it would be amazing if you found out that the retablo in St Lawrence had been foraged from someplace with a Camino connection

Yes, Viranani, I would love to find that connection.

That's an interesting research to make. Best of luck! Meanwhile, you could take a look at www.hpo.ncdcr.gov/nr/BN0007ad.pdf to get started.

 

[DurhamParish]

For anyone looking for books in English I found these about the Civil War and the church:
The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth-Century Spain by Paul Preston

My current "read". It makes me glad that I had the foresight to keep my big mouth shut about this subject while walking through Spain. When I see people over 80 years of age I can't help but remember that they were alive during those terrible times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloisters
This place is astonishing. @Kathar1na, you're right but maybe not in the way you intended. This is only one of the places artistic patrimony went...and it's not just from Spain. There's plenty of French treasure there too.

I will visit this place the next time I'm in NYC.

Viranani, thanks for an interesting thread.

 

[Priscilla NC]

That's an interesting research to make. Best of luck! Meanwhile, you could take a look at www.hpo.ncdcr.gov/nr/BN0007ad.pdf to get started.

Oh my, Castilian, thanks so much for this! I just devoured it, I don't have a lot of words right now. I knew a lot of the history of the Basilica, but this is in so much detail! I actually live in Black Mountain, where Guastavino lived and had his kilns. This is sacred ground too.

OK, more later, I'm about to babble on... Again, deep gratitude!

 

[VNwalking]

OK, more later, I'm about to babble on...

Babble all you want, Priscilla--there will always be interested ears here.
And your post makes a wonderful full circle.
Abandoned sacred places are what moved me start the thread. Sacred places happen where we create and nurture them--where there is interest, supportive economic conditions, and the wisdom to keep them going.

So at a time when conditions in Spain supported dispersal rather than creation, Guastavino built something sacred in America, bringing his all his cultural heritage to the task--as well as artistic patrimony from somewhere in Spain (we know you will somehow find out where!) . Once the sacred objects went across the water they formed a new sacred space for people like you, who then bring that energy back to the Camino.

Many small exchanges like this don't in any way begin to make up for the losses of artistic patrimony in countless Spanish communities--but it is kind of cool. And at least (in your case) that retablo is doing what it as made to do, rather than quietly dissolving or sitting in a museum someplace.

 

[Priscilla NC]

Babble all you want, Priscilla--there will always be interested ears here.
And your post makes a wonderful full circle.
Abandoned sacred places are what moved me start the thread. Sacred places happen where we create and nurture them--where there is interest, supportive economic conditions, and the wisdom to keep them going.

So at a time when conditions in Spain supported dispersal rather than creation, Guastavino built something sacred in America, bringing his all his cultural heritage to the task--as well as artistic patrimony from somewhere in Spain (we know you will somehow find out where!) . Once the sacred objects went across the water they formed a new sacred space for people like you, who then bring that energy back to the Camino.

Many small exchanges like this don't in any way begin to make up for the losses of artistic patrimony in countless Spanish communities--but it is kind of cool. And at least (in your case) that retablo is doing what it as made to do, rather than quietly dissolving or sitting in a museum someplace.

So beautifully stated, Viranani. Yes to all... I felt the pain all along the CF of closed and locked churches, in villages that also seemed closed and locked, except for the establishments that catered to us pilgrims -- who are now overwhelmingly first world people, as I am.

Some of my moments of deepest beauty and peace happened in the sacred places that were lovingly tended to by the villagers who were compelled to keep the sacredness alive in some significant (or some small) way. There were many of these.

We are in another cycle of massive change, in all parts of the globe. Old forms dissolve, new forms are birthing, but we have no idea what to make of the new forms. But I hope that we collectively have the wisdom to keep the artifacts, the art, of the old forms, because it's these forms that give us such a deep sense of continuity with those people and orders that have gone before us. Even if they do end up in museums!

I had tears this morning as I sat in morning Mass with the new depth of knowledge of the history of our Basilica (thanks again, Castilian!) and the genius that was Guastavino.

 

[Castilian]

Oh my, Castilian, thanks so much for this

You're welcome. God bless you!