USC Camino Course - Módulo II: El Patrimonio Histórico del Camino

[jungleboy]

Hi all,

This is the thread to discuss the second module - El Patrimonio Histórico del Camino (Historic Heritage of the Camino) - of the online course titled El Camino de Santiago, Patrimonio de la Humanidad para un mundo global being offered by the University of Santiago de Compostela and MiríadaX.

This is the module that I've been looking forward to the most, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Feel free to discuss the course content, any dudas (doubts) you have may have with language or anything else relevant to the second module in this thread.

If you have not yet signed up at MiríadaX and registered for the course, see this general thread - Free online course about the camino (in Spanish) - that includes details and tips about how to join. The course is open until May 3 so it's not too late to join!

Happy studying!

 

[Kathor1]

This is the thread to discuss the second module

This second module looks more daunting ... there is also a encuesta with some of the questions looking a little out of place at this early stage. Is there a question about this on the foro? I don't understand all of the foro posts but I understood yours .

Also, there's a tarea in the second module ... OK, we will cross this bridge when we get to it.

 

[jungleboy]

This second module looks more daunting ... there is also a encuesta with some of the questions looking a little out of place at this early stage. Is there a question about this on the foro? I don't understand all of the foro posts but I understood yours .

Yes there is. Someone asked why it was in module II and the answer was that it's because that's the module of the course director, but he said we could do it at the end of the course if we prefer.

Also, there's a tarea in the second module ... OK, we will cross this bridge when we get to it.

¡Vamos a ver!

 

[Kathor1]

Someone asked why it was in module II and the answer was that it's because that's the module of the course director, but he said we could do it at the end of the course if we prefer

Ah, it now makes sense to me. Thank you so much, @jungleboy! What would we do without you ... .

 

[Kathor1]

Do not do what I did and fill in the encuesta and leave some fields empty, with the remark To be filled in later. As I have now found out, the questionnaire cannot be edited once you have clicked on Guardar.

 

[jungleboy]

Just glancing at the second module, it looks better structured than the first one. There are six videos and each one has complementary reading and/or web links to consult that are presumably directly related to the video topic. I'll try to do one video + complementary material each day this week.

 

[jungleboy]

Here are some basic notes for one of the two texts presented in the first section of the module: Los monumentos y los núcleos históricos del Camino Francés. The text is about the statue of the apostle in the cathedral of Santiago and what it represents. It's another academic text so it's not light reading but I found it quite interesting.

El Apostol está Presente: La Estatua de Santiago y sus Peregrinos en el Siglo XIII

(The Apostle is Here: The Statue of Santiago and his Pilgrims in the 13th Century)

• From the 12th century, there was a paradigm shift in Europe in religious devotional practices in which the church began to promote the visibility of the sacred in the form of relics and in the visibility of the communion wafer (this last part was a bit tricky).
• The exhibition of relics satisfied the needs of the faithful and pilgrims to contemplate the sacred.
• On the camino, some examples were at Santo Domingo de la Calzada and San Millán de la Cogolla (Suso), where saints’ bodies could be seen from the early 13th century in their primitive burial places.
• Paradoxically, this did not happened with Santiago himself. Instead, works began in the late 11th century to ‘update’ the monument from its old Romanesque form. Further work between 1168 and 1211 had as one of its objectives to create a better visual reception for devotion to Santiago.
• The author argues that this had the effect of transforming the iconography of Santiago in the 13th century, as Santiago now began to be depicted in art together with his pilgrims.
• In 1211, the statue of Santiago (modelled on that at the Pórtico de la Gloria) was enthroned behind the high altar of the cathedral with the purpose of consecrating the building.
• The statue was heavily restored in the Baroque era but its original form can still be seen in a famous AD 1324 miniature of Tombo B in the cathedral of Santiago.
• With the creation of this effigy, pilgrims could contemplate Santiago in a three-dimensional image for the first time in the same location where his body was interred according to tradition; the statue was like a ‘double’ or substitute for the apostle.
• The inspiration for this iconography of Santiago probably came from Italy and France, where similar images existed. (The article notes this examples in details on pp.68-69 for those interested.)
• In the first decades of the 12th century, the success of the devotion of Santiago found powerful rivals in places like the diocese of Braga and the abbey of Reading (England), who also acquired Jacobean relics and put in doubt the existence of the entirety of the apostle’s body in the cathedral in Santiago. This was further questioned when the supposed head of Santiago arrived in Iberia from Jerusalem.
• The installation of the statue at the altar and in the portico between 1188 and 1211 signalled a new longitudinal axis of the church that changed the perception of the cathedral for the faithful.
• This change included the idea of the saint waiting at the doors of the church to welcome pilgrims and also appearing at the altar as a pseudo funerary monument to remind visitors that he was interred within the church.
• In this way, Santiago went from being an apostle, pilgrim and bishop to becoming an ‘intersubjective’ image, in which the he interacts with pilgrims and plays a role in their experience.
• (The final part of the text references other depictions of the apostle elsewhere in Spain and how they were influenced by this new projection of the apostle in Santiago.)

 

[jungleboy]

The second complementary reading for the first video is about pilgrim rituals over time at the cathedral. That sounds interesting but the first part of the article seems to be mostly a lamentation that the camino is not as religious as it once was, which turned me off it a bit. After that, it seems to go back in time starting in the 19th century telling anecdotes about pilgrims. I will try to come back to it later today but for now I'm not hooked by it.

 

[Kathor1]

A general word of encouragement for those who are in a similar situation as I am: I find Module II a tough nut to crack, especially because of my limited Spanish vocabulary and the homework ... I'm going to rely more and more on @jungleboy's generous offer to summarize for us. I skipped some tasks in Module II but may return to them again. It gets better later on in the course and there will even be some stuff in English. I found some unexpected delights. I also discovered that it is more helpful for me to first watch the video and then work on the texts that are listed above the video.

 

[Kathor1]

After that, it seems to go back in time starting in the 19th century telling anecdotes about pilgrims

It is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.

And another word of encouragement for those who struggle with Spanish as I do: it isn't 30 pages, it's less as the text consists of two language versions: Spanish and Galician.

 

[Kathor1]

The statue was heavily restored in the Baroque era but its original form can still be seen in a famous AD 1324 miniature of Tombo B in the cathedral of Santiago.

My Spanish vocubulary is very limited so I shouldn't criticise the author for style and elegance of phrases and he hasn't written his text for a reader like me but I often feel that one could express things more simply and clearly ... so I majorly failed to grasp this restoration in the Baroque era. Does it mean that they equipped the statue of Saint James on the High Altar with a cape and a staff and a gourd to make him look more like a pilgrim and less like a bishop or an apostle?

And can someone confirm that the statue that is currently on display on the High Altar in the cathedral is indeed the one from 1211 and not a replica?

I knew that some authors (16th, 17th century) describe the statue as a wooden statue and that's what I thought, too. I didn't check when I was close to it. So is this Saint James indeed a painted stone statue?

 

[Kathor1]

(The final part of the text references other depictions of the apostle elsewhere in Spain and how they were influenced by this new projection of the apostle in Santiago.)

At the very end of the text, there is a summary of the evolution of the pilgrim rituals at the Cathedral from the 13th century to today:

• First, there was only seeing the statue and the sacred with one's eyes, only a visual contact.
• Then pilgrims came closer to the statue, climbed the ladder behind the altar and put their hats on the statue or put the crown that was on the statue on their own heads.
• From the 17th century onwards, the ritual of hugging the statue became established practice.

 

[linkster]

Here is a link to my Google Drive that contains the first two translated documents. I used the https://www.onlinedoctranslator.com/en/translationform to do the translation. The Ceremonial fiesta had a combination of Gallego and Spanish which initially caused a problem. So, I extracted all of the pages, ran them thru individually, and then recombined them into a single file. You guys are way ahead of me, but I will try to post translated files if you find them useful.

Google Drive

El Camino de Santiago: Patrimonio de la Humanidad ... - Google Drive

drive.google.com

PDFEN - ImagLiturgia2015_Manuel_Antonio_Castineiras_Gonzalez
PDFES - ImagLiturgia2015_Manuel_Antonio_Castineiras_Gonzalez
PDFEN - Ceremonial fiesta y liturgia en la Catedral de Santiago_Antón Pombo
PDFES - Ceremonial fiesta y liturgia en la Catedral de Santiago_Antón Pombo

 

[linkster]

Hey just a note on file naming conventions. I will try to stick to a PDFEN / PDFES prefix for files ran through the translator, and OCREN / OCRES for files requiring OCR character recognition prior to translation.

 

[linkster]

Can you please check the link? I get an error message. Will delete this post when it's done. Thanks.

I updated the post with the correct link to the folder. I must have had one of the file names in the clipboard. Sorry for the confusion. I will continue to post updates to that folder, so additional files should become visible.

El Camino de Santiago: Patrimonio de la Humanidad ... - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[jungleboy]

It is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.

I also found it a bit unusual. The author specifically mentions doing this but as I read the sentence below on the last page, it sounds like he's saying that he did it in reverse order but now has to flip it back to actually see the conclusions, which would seem to make reversing the order in the first place a bit pointless.

Invirtiendo el orden, y adoptando ahora el devenir cronológico, podríamos vislumbrar un proceso lineal, que va desde la plena sacralidad de la iglesia a la progresiva secularización de algunos de sus elementos y que culminaría en la musealización, auspiciada por sus valores artísticos.

I will say that I read a book once that also worked backwards in time and it was brilliantly done, so much so that the reader is not really aware until the end that that's what is happening (or at least, I wasn't) and then it all makes perfect sense. The name of the book is:

Spoiler

'City of Djinns' by William Dalrymple

 

[jungleboy]

These are my notes from the article we've been discussing in the last few posts from the first section of this module. I chose to skip the middle part going through anecdotes of pilgrim behaviour over the centuries and just looked at the introduction and the conclusion. The purpose of the article is to show what these rituals are but also to discuss the secularisation of the cathedral in our time, which, as I read it, the author does not like.

Ceremonial fiesta y liturgia en la Catedral de Santiago

Ritos de los peregrinos en la Catedral de Santiago a través de los tiempos: del contacto con lo sagrado a la atracción por lo curioso

(Ceremony and liturgy in the Cathedral of Santiago: pilgrim rites in the cathedral over time: from contact with the sacred to attraction for the curious)

• In the late 20th century, coinciding with the rebirth of the camino, certain pilgrim rituals of old were also reborn, but their sense has been altered given the changing image of the pilgrim and the blurred lines between pilgrimage and tourism.
• Among these rituals are the embrace of the apostle, which is still the principle act that marks the end of the pilgrimage, the observing of the botafumeiro and the daily midday mass.
• The mass is still well attended by pilgrims but the sacraments of communion and penitence are not, except by Catholics who have religious motivations for undertaking the camino.
• Apart from walking through the Holy Door during Holy Years, there usually aren’t any further rituals for most pilgrims than those already described.
• These days, the cathedral has been converted into a museum, open all day, and has so far resisted the idea of charging for entry at certain times, which happens in most other Spanish cathedrals.
• The 19th century represented the lowest point in the history of the pilgrimage.

Conclusion:

• It’s easy to look at the secularisation of pilgrim rituals as a linear progression, but these rituals reached their peak in the late medieval period and were maintained at that level during the 16th century, when religious fervour and piety gained steam during the Counterreformation.
• In the 20th century, the old traditions were respected although some fell into oblivion.
• Only in the postmodern period has mass tourism come into contact with the pilgrimage, and the weight of this tourism has swung the balance of the cathedral towards its conception as a museum.
• The author suggests that limiting the access of mass tourism to some pilgrim rituals could be the best solution to avoid losing the sense of those rituals definitively.

 

[Kathor1]

The author suggests that limiting the access of mass tourism to some pilgrim rituals could be the best solution to avoid losing the sense of those rituals definitively.

I found that a truly strange suggestion.

I remember an earlier forum discussion where I got the impression (can be wrong of course) that this author views travelling to the Saint James site in Santiago as a kind of prerogative of the burdensome long distance pilgrimage on foot that, in his opinion, was "international" from day one, and not as a phenomenon that started locally and regionally and grew into an international (for most of the time European though not encompassing all of Europe in equal measure and now also reaching parts of other continents) phenomenon and a huge success story.

I also would love to share some comments on the history of the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz (middle column) of the Portico de la Gloria and on the Cartulaire de Tournai but I don't want to derail this thread into all sorts of directions as it is better when we concentrate on working through the course material as such. Perhaps at the end of this thread or in a general purpose thread at the end of the course?

I'm enjoying the course and I am now thinking of eventually doing Module IV, too.

I also know how important this aspect - the Patrimonio Histórico del Camino - had become for me. It wasn't as pronounced at the beginning of my long walk to Santiago as it became during the walk (which I did in sections over several years) and as it is now.

 

[David Tallan]

I found that a truly strange suggestion.

I remember an earlier forum discussion where I got the impression (can be wrong of course) that this author views travelling to the Saint James site in Santiago as a kind of prerogative of the burdensome long distance pilgrimage on foot that, in his opinion, was "international" from day one, and not as a phenomenon that started locally and regionally and grew into an international (for most of the time European though not encompassing all of Europe in equal measure and now also reaching parts of other continents) phenomenon and a huge success story.

I also would love to share some comments on the history of the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz (middle column) of the Portico de la Gloria and on the Cartulaire de Tournai but I don't want to derail this thread into all sorts of directions as it is better when we concentrate on working through the course material as such. Perhaps at the end of this thread or in a general purpose thread at the end of the course?

I'm enjoying the course and I am now thinking of eventually doing Module IV, too.

I also know how important this aspect - the Patrimonio Histórico del Camino - had become for me. It wasn't as pronounced at the beginning of my long walk to Santiago as it became during the walk (which I did in sections over several years) and as it is now.

I was also thinking that the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz was a very important one from my first pilgrimage, which didn't seem to have been discussed (going by the summary). It seemed to be one that had a long history (judging from the impressions in the column) and is one that has been discontinued only recently.

 

[Kathor1]

I was also thinking that the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz was a very important one from my first pilgrimage, which didn't seem to have been discussed (going by the summary). It seemed to be one that had a long history (judging from the impressions in the column) and is one that has been discontinued only recently.

From memory: The author of the article laments the fact that today's pilgrims are no longer allowed to place their hand on the portaluz. However, it will be difficult to find a report from a pilgrim who came to Santiago before say the 19th century who reports that this was a pilgrim ritual. More perhaps later ... Does anyone remember in which year this ritual was reported for the first time? Does the author even mention a date and a name? He cites a lot of years and names for the other rituals.

 

[jungleboy]

And can someone confirm that the statue that is currently on display on the High Altar in the cathedral is indeed the one from 1211 and not a replica?

It seems so. Quoting from the third video of this module at the 6:10 mark: "...la misma escultura que todavía hoy esta dentro del cámara en barroco" (the same statue we find today in the Baroque alcove).

 

[longwayhome]

It is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.

And another word of encouragement for those who struggle with Spanish as I do: it isn't 30 pages, it's less as the text consists of two language versions: Spanish and Galician.

And the Google translations are interesting to compare

 

[Kathor1]

Does anyone remember in which year this ritual [placing hand on mullion] was reported for the first time? Does the author even mention a date and a name? He cites a lot of years and names for the other rituals.

@linkster did a fantastic job with producing ORCs of the text, then a machine translation from Spanish to English and then putting it all into searchable PDFs! I ran a search for hand through the Rituals text by A. Pombo.

Pombo writes in footnote 9: We do not know when this rite [of putting a hand on the column] arose. He quotes a text from clergyman Zádory who visited in 1868 and was told that pilgrims “put their five fingers on the stone ornaments of the column located in the middle to get the certificate of the pilgrimage with their prayers." I think this is the earliest mention of the hand ritual. He also quotes a travel report published in 1909 that says that women had put their hand on the column 'during centuries' to pray to God to have their wish fulfilled of getting pregnant and having a child. That must refer mainly to local pilgrimage, I guess.

Earlier pilgrims do not mention the hand ritual.

• 1726: Pilgrim Manier. One of the few travellers who says something about the configuration resembling five fingers on the column. However, Manier does not mention a pilgrim ritual of placing one's hand on it. Instead, Manier reports that it is an imprint of the hand of God/Christus who pushed the Cathedral building into a different orientation.
  
  
• 1672: Pilgrim Jouvin. He reports that Christus walked through the Holy Door when he came to adjust the physical orientation of the Cathedral and “as the truth of this fact they showed us his hand, imprinted on the stone of one of the pillars that is at the entrance of the nave, where Our Lord pushed to move the building."

The same silence about such a ritual in all other reports before the 19th century although these same pilgrims report, sometimes with emotion, that they placed their hand on the apostle's staff, a relic that was on display in the Cathedral and that is gone now.

 

[Kathor1]

He also quotes a travel report published in 1909

The wonders of the internet: Project Gutenberg's Galicia, the Switzerland of Spain, by Annette M. B. Meakin

For centuries poor women from all parts of Spain and Portugal have implicitly believed that by placing their right hand where the branches of the Tree of Jesse are thickest, and praying at the same time that God will grant them children, they will receive the desired end. At the spot where so many thousands of hands have been placed the marble is literally worn away, like the toe of St. Peter at Rome. Priests shake their heads at this superstition, but the women’s faith is not shaken, and the custom continues to be practised.​

​

That was 1909. Females tend to get edited out of history or are only good for a footnote . Now back to 2021 and the USC course, module II .

 

[linkster]

FYI, for anyone that struggles with Spanish ... I do this a lot on my Windows PC when reading a PDF in Google Chrome.

1) Left double click on a word to highlight the word.
2) Right click brings up a popup menu with a search option.
3) Then it searches the internet. I like to use spanishdict.com for the SPA phonetic spelling.

 

[jungleboy]

I've watched all the videos for this module but haven't yet looked at the reading 'Pobres, peregrinos y enfermos' attached to the third video.

I've only now seen the writing tasks for this week and they look very challenging! Someone asked on the course forum if they could write in Portuguese and it was approved, so I have asked if English is permitted too and will report back. The papers are peer graded so it really depends on the English levels of the other students rather than the professors, but we'll see. Even in English, these will be difficult papers to write and it's hard to imagine writing 3-5 pages and 2-3 pages as requested.

 

[Kathor1]

I have asked if English is permitted too and will report back

Thank you so much for asking this question, @jungleboy! Does folio really mean the same as pagina, namely an A4 page? The number of pages suggested for the two tasks seems indeed high.

Is this correct: It doesn’t matter how many points you get (if any)?

 

[Canche]

Hi all,

This is the thread to discuss the second module - El Patrimonio Histórico del Camino (Historic Heritage of the Camino) - of the online course titled El Camino de Santiago, Patrimonio de la Humanidad para un mundo global being offered by the University of Santiago de Compostela and MiríadaX.

This is the module that I've been looking forward to the most, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Feel free to discuss the course content, any dudas (doubts) you have may have with language or anything else relevant to the second module in this thread.

If you have not yet signed up at MiríadaX and registered for the course, see this general thread - Free online course about the camino (in Spanish) - that includes details and tips about how to join. The course is open until May 3 so it's not too late to join!

Happy studying!

I am really enjoyig it. Gracias

 

[Albertagirl]

I am now working on the second module and have read and enjoyed the chapter on the statue of Santiago. I had a hard time with the first module, since remembering what happened in multiple dates is not my forte. I found the article on the new mode of relating to the saint, encouraged by changes in the set up of the cathedral to produce a gradual introduction to the statue as a kind of "stand in" for Santiago, much more interesting, if rather repetitive. Now, I am watching some of the videos. I am still too busy to give all the time to this course that would be desirable. I find myself reading the English texts, then referring to the Spanish when I need to clarify the precise meaning of a word or phrase. This is certainly the reverse of my usual practice.

 

[David Tallan]

@linkster did a fantastic job with producing ORCs of the text, then a machine translation from Spanish to English and then putting it all into searchable PDFs! I ran a search for hand through the Rituals text by A. Pombo.

Pombo writes in footnote 9: We do not know when this rite [of putting a hand on the column] arose. He quotes a text from clergyman Zádory who visited in 1868 and was told that pilgrims “put their five fingers on the stone ornaments of the column located in the middle to get the certificate of the pilgrimage with their prayers." I think this is the earliest mention of the hand ritual. He also quotes a travel report published in 1909 that says that women had put their hand on the column 'during centuries' to pray to God to have their wish fulfilled of getting pregnant and having a child. That must refer mainly to local pilgrimage, I guess.

Earlier pilgrims do not mention the hand ritual.

• 1726: Pilgrim Manier. One of the few travellers who says something about the configuration resembling five fingers on the column. However, Manier does not mention a pilgrim ritual of placing one's hand on it. Instead, Manier reports that it is an imprint of the hand of God/Christus who pushed the Cathedral building into a different orientation.
  
  
• 1672: Pilgrim Jouvin. He reports that Christus walked through the Holy Door when he came to adjust the physical orientation of the Cathedral and “as the truth of this fact they showed us his hand, imprinted on the stone of one of the pillars that is at the entrance of the nave, where Our Lord pushed to move the building."

The same silence about such a ritual in all other reports before the 19th century although these same pilgrims report, sometimes with emotion, that they placed their hand on the apostle's staff, a relic that was on display in the Cathedral and that is gone now.

That's really interesting. One wonders whether the imprint of the hand was carved there or whether there was an earlier custom of placing a hand on the pillar that created the imprint and then fell out of use, leaving the imprint to inspire later stories, only to be revived years later by women and pilgrims. Or whether women have always been doing it but the results of their actions were later attributed to God as in the reports from the 17th and 18th centuries above.

 

[Albertagirl]

I hope that someone who knows what is going on can help me with this. At present, I have two problems with Modulo II:
1. I don't know whether there is any way to get the text of "Pobres, Peregrinos y Enfermos" in English. I am not up to attempting the technical procedures done by @linkster to provide us with the English texts for Modulo I, and am not aware whether this would be possible with this text as received.
2. I have tried to copy the text of the following: Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia por el emperador Carlos V (1524) y Constituciones… por el rey Felipe II (1590), Santiago: Sebastián Montero y Frayz, 1775 (reimpresión): http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3216 in any language, and I just get a message from the Galician library that id#3216 does not exist.
I can work my way through the 14 pages in Spanish of the first text, if I can find the time, but I am wondering whether the second text, which apparently does not exist in the library, is essential for composing one of the essays. I don't really know what to do about the essays, but I figure to fight that battle when I get to it.
Any assistance would be most welcome.

 

[linkster]

Wait for it ....
OCREN - Pobres_peregrinos_y_enfermos.pdf
OCRES - Pobres_peregrinos_y_enfermos.pdf

Same Google Drive folder as the others.

I have been side tracked this last week. I will be starting my Spanish tutoring on Monday. The conversions are not difficult, just tedious. This one had to be separated, and combined. It only took 15 minutes. I have not read it, but it does look like English.

Buena Suerte!

 

[linkster]

I just tried the other link that @Albertagirl referenced above, and I received the same message.

El registro con nº de control o id 3216 no existe.

 

[Albertagirl]

I just tried the other link that @Albertagirl referenced above, and I received the same message.

El registro con nº de control o id 3216 no existe.

Thanks so much. I have been working on the 14 pages of the Spanish text, since I was unsure of what OCR meant. I have made it through more than half of the Spanish text, although it is desperately boring. I guess that my Spanish is not as bad as I thought. By sometime tomorrow, I hope to have finished reading it. But I don't know what to do about the missing text, or whether it is significant for the two compositions that I am supposed to make to finish Modullo II. I don't really understand the compositions, which apparently seem to be done in a group, as we are supposed to comment on others' compositions? I connot quite figure out whether my confusion is the result of my inadequate Spanish, or whether it is a result of a new online course being tried out on volunteers who don't have to pay for it if we don't like the muddle that it seems to be in.

 

[jungleboy]

2. I have tried to copy the text of the following: Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia por el emperador Carlos V (1524) y Constituciones… por el rey Felipe II (1590), Santiago: Sebastián Montero y Frayz, 1775 (reimpresión): http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3216 in any language, and I just get a message from the Galician library that id#3216 does not exist.

The correct link was posted in the forum. Here it is via @Kathar1na:

http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3214

I downloaded two pdf files. You need to click on Recurso electronico first and then on the link that lets you download the scanned pages in one whole document. The system then generates two documents (obra 1 and 2) which you can download.

 

[Kathor1]

the muddle that it seems to be in

Although I enjoyed the three modules, and while I have already forgotten much of it, I agree about the course being in a bit of a muddle, both technically and as to the content.

I've completed the three modules, entered my two compositions, evaluated the compositions of six other participants and had my compositions evaluated by five participants so far. I am still waiting for the sixth person but fear that he/she may have abandoned the course and may never produce an evaluation.

Here are some replies that the lecturer, Miguel Tain Guzman, posted on the forum:

• The text [Constituciones], in old Castilian, is the regulation containing the rules for the operation of the hospital for the sick (enfermerias in the text), located on the first floor of the building, and the pilgrims' albergues, which was on the ground floor, towards the Obradoiro, and separated by sex. You have to look up the rules that applied to pilgrims.
  
  
• Remember that the two compositions are voluntary work (not compulsory) The idea is to locate which rules of the Hospital Real are dedicated to pilgrims.
  
  
• The course belongs to the University of Santiago de Compostela where, according to its regulations, the official languages are Spanish and Galician, and Portuguese is accepted for academic work. English is not accepted (for the moment). Officially we cannot accept it because of our regulations.

I assume that this means it is not necessary to submit own work to successfully complete the course and to obtain any of the two certificates and/or ECTS credits.

It also means that we cannot enter essays in English and must enter them as Spanish text. I cannot write more than very simple sentences in Spanish. However, it was doable to produce something that I felt was satisfactory, both to me and apparently also to my peers, with the help of Deepl/Google Translate and by repeated forwards and backwards translations and by adapting my original text when the machine translation into Spanish looked iffy to me and I didn't feel confident to be able to correct it properly in Spanish itself.

 

[Albertagirl]

Although I enjoyed the three modules, and while I have already forgotten much of it, I agree about the course being in a bit of a muddle, both technically and as to the content.

I've completed the three modules, entered my two compositions, evaluated the compositions of six other participants and had my compositions evaluated by five participants so far. I am still waiting for the sixth person but fear that he/she may have abandoned the course and may never produce an evaluation.

Here are some replies that the lecturer, Miguel Tain Guzman, posted on the forum:

• The text [Constituciones], in old Castilian, is the regulation containing the rules for the operation of the hospital for the sick (enfermerias in the text), located on the first floor of the building, and the pilgrims' albergues, which was on the ground floor, towards the Obradoiro, and separated by sex. You have to look up the rules that applied to pilgrims.
  
  
• Remember that the two compositions are voluntary work (not compulsory) The idea is to locate which rules of the Hospital Real are dedicated to pilgrims.
  
  
• The course belongs to the University of Santiago de Compostela where, according to its regulations, the official languages are Spanish and Galician, and Portuguese is accepted for academic work. English is not accepted (for the moment). Officially we cannot accept it because of our regulations.

I assume that this means it is not necessary to submit own work to successfully complete the course and to obtain any of the two certificates and/or ECTS credits.

It also means that we cannot enter essays in English and must enter them as Spanish text. I cannot write more than very simple sentences in Spanish. However, it was doable to produce something that I felt was satisfactory, both to me and apparently also to my peers, with the help of Deepl/Google Translate and by repeated forwards and backwards translations and by adapting my original text when the machine translation into Spanish looked iffy to me and I didn't feel confident to be able to correct it properly in Spanish itself.

Wow. This is technically far beyond my ability. So far, I have replied in my (very basic) Spanish, whenever required to do so, and managed to get through Modullo I. I think that I shall be able to respond to questions to finish Modullo II, but, being a stubborn sort who finishes what I start, I am beginning to wonder why I started. I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modullo II? How can I avoid or work around any technical challenges? I admit that I need all the help I can get.

 

[Kathor1]

I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modulo II?

There are no requirements for starting Modulo III. It can be started independently of the other two modules.

In addition, the content of module 3 is also independent of the content of modules 1 and 2. I myself started and finished module 3 before I tackled the essays in module 2.

In fact, although I have done everything I can possibly do, my module 2 is still shown as "not finished" because one of the peer evaluations is still missing and I may never receive it. Needless to say that seeing this "not finished" tag each time I sign in annoys me mightily . I just like to see the "Terminado" tag, whether it matters in the greater scheme of things or not.

Any other questions ... I am more than happy to share what I know.

 

[Former member 49149]

Wow. This is technically far beyond my ability. So far, I have replied in my (very basic) Spanish, whenever required to do so, and managed to get through Modullo I. I think that I shall be able to respond to questions to finish Modullo II, but, being a stubborn sort who finishes what I start, I am beginning to wonder why I started. I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modullo II? How can I avoid or work around any technical challenges? I admit that I need all the help I can get.

I would like to say that although I also prefer to finish what I start, i know my limitations. The timing of this course is not the best for me. Also, I do not need it, in terms of a step on any ladder. I am very interested in any new knowledge connected with the Camino (multi-faceted) but on my own terms. I will keep the links, and read the documents in my own time. There are learning curves for those producing the course, and this experience will be very useful for them.
I hope you manage to reconcile yourself to the demands of the course, and succeed in getting to the end of unit 3.

 

[Kathor1]

For those who are adventurous and have time on their hands, as I am and as I do, I recommend starting with the second written task in Modulo II. I will keep my opinion on the level of difficulty, the purpose of the set tasks, the relationship with the rest of the content of this module etc to myself. They suggest between two and three pages of "analysis" which I regard as a bit of a joke. If your peers are like mine and like I am, they will not care about the number of pages that you filled. So grab your chance and explore how this peer-to-peer review system works and help to evaluate the work of some of your peers who may be impatiently waiting for an assessment. All you have to do is watch the movie snippets from 1955 and look at the text to the right of each short scene. The tasks are:

Written work of between two and three pages where the following points are analysed:​

1. Identify which monuments of the French Way appear in the documentary, ordering them from the Pyrenees to Compostela (low level of difficulty)
2. Describe the differences between the cathedral of Santiago in the documentary and the present-day cathedral (low level of difficulty).
3. Analysis of the procession of the Apostle in 1955: identify the route of the procession through the streets and squares of Compostela; the image of the Apostle that is paraded; and the groups and authorities who participate (high level of difficulty).

Ad 1: As I described in the first paragraph above.
Ad 2: Anybody's guess. I produced a few points. Others said none and I found that justified, too.
Ad 3: I misunderstood this and thought I had to produce the whole length of the procession in 1955. In fact, all you have to do is identify the places in Santiago that you recognise in the short video clips that you see here and there in the 2-hours movie from 1955. It's again fairly easy to do. Ditto for the statue of the Apostle in the procession. Skip the groups and authorities or describe them in vague terms. Use the text on the right hand side of the movie scenes to skip what you don't need to view for this task.

Give it a go and good luck!

 

[jungleboy]

In fact, although I have done everything I can possibly do, my module 2 is still shown as "not finished" because one of the peer evaluations is still missing and I may never receive it. Needless to say that seeing this "not finished" tag each time I sign in annoys me mightily . I just like to see the "Terminado" tag, whether it matters in the greater scheme of things or not.

You might want to check that you have completely watched all the videos to the very end. Mine says Terminado even though I haven't done the writing tasks.

 

[Kathor1]

You might want to check that you have completely watched all the videos to the very end. Mine says Terminado even though I haven't done the writing tasks.

Oh yes, you are right of course, my memory had failed me, tsk tsk tsk. I, too, see "Terminado" on my screen and all the dots are green when I open module 2 but there is a tag in my mind and that one says "not finished". As to the videos, I had already watched them all, and attentively, and yet one or two dots remained yellow. So I fired up the videos again and let them run unattended, just to see the dots change from yellow to green.

 

[Albertagirl]

I shall have very little time for this today, since it is my birthday and will be the first time that I have been with my family (barring one drop-in visit from a brother) since Christmas. But I do want to go on with it. I was up for a while about 4 am and tried to download the text in Old Castilian. For some reason, I had challenges with the download, and doubt if I shall have time to go through all of it bfore the third of May. Would anyone like to give me a hint and tell me on what pages the relevant information (about regulations for the pilgrims and the local sick) can be found. I know a little already, from reading Pobres, Peregrinos y Enfermos. Separate dormitories by gender for the pilgrims, who may only stay three days. I am finding this article, although somewhat tedious to read in Spanish, has some interesting historical information. It appears that the authorities in Santiago were not nearly as interested in housing and caring for pilgrims as were the Reyes Católicos. I shall return to this later, probably tomorrow, and thanks to all for help.

 

[Kathor1]

¡Feliz cumpleaños, @Albertagirl! Savour the time with your family!

 

[muddy-mama]

Happy birthday Albertagirl

 

[Former member 49149]

I shall have very little time for this today, since it is my birthday and will be the first time that I have been with my family (barring one drop-in visit from a brother) since Christmas. But I do want to go on with it. I was up for a while about 4 am and tried to download the text in Old Castilian. For some reason, I had challenges with the download, and doubt if I shall have time to go through all of it bfore the third of May. Would anyone like to give me a hint and tell me on what pages the relevant information (about regulations for the pilgrims and the local sick) can be found. I know a little already, from reading Pobres, Peregrinos y Enfermos. Separate dormitories by gender for the pilgrims, who may only stay three days. I am finding this article, although somewhat tedious to read in Spanish, has some interesting historical information. It appears that the authorities in Santiago were not nearly as interested in housing and caring for pilgrims as were the Reyes Católicos. I shall return to this later, probably tomorrow, and thanks to all for help.

Have a lovely

 

[linkster]

Happy birthday @Albertagirl! carpe diem

FYI, I have bookmarked the videos, so that I can go back to them later if I want. Just right click on the video, there should be a pop-up menu, select copy video URL. You can then save or bookmark as desired.

 

[David Tallan]

Happy birthday, Albertagirl!

 

[C clearly]

I would like to say that although I also prefer to finish what I start, i know my limitations. The timing of this course is not the best for me. Also, I do not need it, in terms of a step on any ladder. I am very interested in any new knowledge connected with the Camino (multi-faceted) but on my own terms. I will keep the links, and read the documents in my own time. There are learning curves for those producing the course, and this experience will be very useful for them.
I hope you manage to reconcile yourself to the demands of the course, and succeed in getting to the end of unit 3.

Exactly my sentiments. I dropped out of active participation in this thread, but am glancing at it each day. I hope to get some more of the materials covered before the course closes, so all these tips are helpful.

Happy birthday, @Albertagirl !

 

[VNwalking]

since it is my birthday

Happy birthday, @Albertagirl, and may you have many caminos in you yet!

 

[linkster]

The correct link was posted in the forum. Here it is via @Kathar1na:

Here are the trnalted documents. No that was not a typo, but a simulated OCR error. This document did not translate as well as the others. It might be like speed reading.

Same Google Drive folder as the others.

OCREN - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf
OCRES - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf

 

[Kathor1]

Here are the trnalted documents. No that was not a typo, but a simulated OCR error. This document did not translate as well as the others. It might be like speed reading.

Same Google Drive folder as the others.

OCREN - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf
OCRES - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf

Wow, you attempted to OCR and machine translate the Regulations of the Hospital that is now the Parador hotel next to the Cathedral in Santiago. Bravo!

This text, written in the 16th century and reprinted in the 18th, is surprisingly easy to read for a human but not so easy for machines because the letter "s" at the beginning and in the middle of a word looks more like the letter "f" and in some words the letter "b" is a "v" in today's orthography and a "v" has become a "b".

For example berano (in the old text) is now written as verano for summer and vacinicas (in the old text) is now written as bacinicas for chamber pots.

 

[Kathor1]

http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3214
I downloaded two pdf files. You need to click on Recurso electronico first and then on the link that lets you download the scanned pages in one whole document. The system then generates two documents (obra 1 and 2) which you can download.

Somewhat belatedly, I have now discovered that there is a link that lets you download a pdf file without going through the hoops described above. Why the course organisers did not provide this link is a question I cannot answer.

https://minerva.usc.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10347/7132/b11165716.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Click on this link and you are done and have the complete text of the Constituciones on your computer and your screen.

 

[Kathor1]

Below are some of the points that I highlighted. Be aware that I may have misunderstood some of what I tried to decipher. The numbers refer to the page numbers printed on the top left or top right corner of the pages of the Constituciones:

• p. 59 - pilgrims can stay three nights in summer and five nights in winter; sick pilgrims who are not contagious and similar patients can stay until they are healthy again; contagious pilgrims (lepra, plague) are not admitted;
  
  
• p. 3 & 14 - the hospital must recruit chaplains who know foreign languages; details about how many chaplains and the foreign languages they must know; English is not among the required foreign language knowledge;
  
  
• p. 27 - one or two members of the staff have to go to the cathedral and through the streets of Santiago, at least twice per day, to look for sick pilgrims and take them to the hospital/albergue as they may not be aware of its existence and service for pilgrims;
  
  
• p. 28 - don’t let pilgrims wait during the night in front of the main door and find them dead in the morning;
  
  
• p. 33 - sick patients have to draw up a testament but are not obliged to donate any of their possession to the hospital;
  
  
• p. 39-42 - beds must be of good quality, chestnut or walnut wood, equipped with cushions and other material; necessity to have calmness and quietness in the hospital and albergue area; patients and pilgrims must be treated with respect, no bad words against them (each of them represents Jesus Christ);
  
  
• p. 12-13 - when a pilgrim dies, a member of the hospital staff must go through the streets of Santiago with a bell and announce the death so that those who wish to do so can attend the funeral; the funeral has to be a proper funeral with clergy staff present and religious ornaments in use.

The text does not always make a clear distinction between the poor, the pilgrims and the patients, in my opinion. One of the essays I saw contained some actual analysis and drew comparison between then and now and found some of the attitudes towards patients and their treatment surprisingly modern. There are also instructions about religious acts to be performed at various times throughout the day and at special occasions and the obligation of pilgrims to participate.

 

[longwayhome]

Below are some of the points that I highlighted. Be aware that I may have misunderstood some of what I tried to decipher. The numbers refer to the page numbers printed on the top left or top right corner of the pages of the Constituciones:

• p. 59 - pilgrims can stay three nights in summer and five nights in winter; sick pilgrims who are not contagious and similar patients can stay until they are healthy again; contagious pilgrims (lepra, plague) are not admitted;
  
  
• p. 3 & 14 - the hospital must recruit chaplains who know foreign languages; details about how many chaplains and the foreign languages they must know; English is not among the required foreign language knowledge;
  
  
• p. 27 - one or two members of the staff have to go to the cathedral and through the streets of Santiago, at least twice per day, to look for sick pilgrims and take them to the hospital/albergue as they may not be aware of its existence and service for pilgrims;
  
  
• p. 28 - don’t let pilgrims wait during the night in front of the main door and find them dead in the morning;
  
  
• p. 33 - sick patients have to draw up a testament but are not obliged to donate any of their possession to the hospital;
  
  
• p. 39-42 - beds must be of good quality, chestnut or walnut wood, equipped with cushions and other material; necessity to have calmness and quietness in the hospital and albergue area; patients and pilgrims must be treated with respect, no bad words against them (each of them represents Jesus Christ);
  
  
• p. 12-13 - when a pilgrim dies, a member of the hospital staff must go through the streets of Santiago with a bell and announce the death so that those who wish to do so can attend the funeral; the funeral has to be a proper funeral with clergy staff present and religious ornaments in use.

The text does not always make a clear distinction between the poor, the pilgrims and the patients, in my opinion. One of the essays I saw contained some actual analysis and drew comparison between then and now and found some of the attitudes towards patients and their treatment surprisingly modern. There are also instructions about religious acts to be performed at various times throughout the day and at special occasions and the obligation of pilgrims to participate.

Thank you so much for this!

 

[longwayhome]

I successfully completed Module 1 and 3 (very interesting!) and am now back to tackle this one which was interrupted by Easter. I am loving adding some historical depth to my Camino experience. I appreciate that is strengthening my Spanish skills ( poor to a little at best). Thanks all for the feedback and discussion I read here.

 

[Canche]

I successfully completed Module 1 and 3 (very interesting!) and am now back to tackle this one which was interrupted by Easter. I am loving adding some historical depth to my Camino experience. I appreciate that is strengthening my Spanish skills ( poor to a little at best). Thanks all for the feedback and discussion I read here.

OK Now I'm really lost. I completed Modelulo II thru Entrevista a Daniel Lorenzo and then can't seem to go on from there. I try to open "EL Hospital Real de la Plaza.." and it sends me to a strange page with a link to biblioteca.galiciana which is no good. Darn it! Then below is says Entregar tu tarea? What tarea was that. Geez and I was really enjoying this.

 

[jungleboy]

Dinah, see @Kathar1na's solution:

Somewhat belatedly, I have now discovered that there is a link that lets you download a pdf file without going through the hoops described above. Why the course organisers did not provide this link is a question I cannot answer.

https://minerva.usc.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10347/7132/b11165716.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Click on this link and you are done and have the complete text of the Constituciones on your computer and your screen.

 

[Kathor1]

It was a delight for me to have access to the text of the charter of the Gran Hospital. I had been curious about it ever since I had read in Davidson/Gitlitz's book that by tradition and by Fernando and Isabella's charter, pilgrims walking to Compostela were entitled to 3 days' free food and lodging at the hospice. When we arrived in Compostela in 1974 with our group at the end of our first pilgrimage, the doorman's eyes popped with surprise, but we were duly housed and fed for free.

There have also been heated discussions on the forum about who has a "right" to the 10 free tickets for a meal at the Parador hotel that are daily handed out to contemporary pilgrims who had just arrived in Santiago; in previous years, you had to queue at the backdoor of the hotel in the morning, with your Compostela in hand, while these days the Pilgrim's Office hands out the tickets on a first come first served basis.

I've become a bit doubtful about both "by the charter" and "by tradition". Perhaps it was more due to the surprise factor and the convincing professors from the United States that got them, in 1974, free lodging and food at this five star Parador with its long history . Ferdinand and Isabel's/Charles V's charter got replaced by another charter in the 19th century, and the emphasis shifted even more from hospitality for pilgrims to hospital care for patients from the town and from the region. It was no longer a king or queen who set the rules but the secular authorities. Today, no longer is mass read at least three times a day, no longer are eight chaplains employed who live and sleep there, no longer must pilgrims go to confession when they stay there, and no longer, I guess, do they all commemorate and pray daily for Charles V, as stipulated in the Constitutiones (p. 21), and for his health, and for his soul and the souls of Ferdinand and Isabel, and for Charles V's successors who had already died, and for all the kings who ruled in Charles V's huge empire that reached far beyond Spain.

 

[Canche]

Dinah, see @Kathar1na's solution:

Thanks but that doesn't help me continue with the lessons.

 

[muddy-mama]

Thanks but that doesn't help me continue with the lessons.

The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrow

 

[Canche]

The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrow

OK. I'll try that.

 

[Canche]

The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrow

It worked. I just took the test and passed with 75! On to Modulo 3.

 

[Kathor1]

A word of encouragement on the homework/two essays of Modulo 2: A participant said that, at first, she found it very difficult but she did read the two Constituciones and became more and more interested and found the texts intriguing ('curioso'). She also read the essays of the three other participants that the system had allocated to her and found it an enriching experience. She encourages others to read the Constituciones and to put themselves in the shoes of the pilgrims of the 16th century.

 

[Albertagirl]

I am having a problem. When downloading items for Modulo II, I downloaded a free item from academia.edu which appeared on my screen, with the title of "Las tres fiestas en honor a Santiago: el martirio, la traslacion y la aparicion de Clavijo" by Miguel Tain Guzman. I thought this was part of the course material, but soon discovered that it was not on the list or readings. Now, I am receiving unsolicited and irrelevant email advertisements, some from academia.edu and one from someone calling himself Jose Manuel Garcia Iglesias, which did not come through academia.edu. They are arriving at the rate of one or two a day. I have done my best to block these emails, and can only hope that I will succeed.

 

[Kathor1]

unsolicited and irrelevant email advertisements, some from academia.edu

There is an "Unsubscribe" link at the bottom of these emails. When you click on it, you are taken to a webpage where you see two buttons, one saying "Don't send me emails like this". Click on it to confirm.

The other button is labelled as "Manage all my email settings". It takes you to another webpage where you can remove the "ticks" for all other email notifications from Academia.edu.

 

[Albertagirl]

There is an "Unsubscribe" link at the bottom of these emails. When you click on it, you are taken to a webpage where you see two buttons, one saying "Don't send me emails like this". Click on it to confirm.

The other button is labelled as "Manage all my email settings". It takes you to another webpage where you can remove the "ticks" for all other email notifications from Academia.edu.

Thank you. I have done so, although I am not sure about the email which came in under someone's name. And I am somewhat concerned that Academia.edu might also manage all the references which I receive for a journal on Ancient Near Eastern Studies. But as I never get around to actually reading these articles, it may be time that I admit to myself that I never will.

 

[Albertagirl]

I have just completed the test for Modulo II, with a grade of 95%. This seems fair to me, although the test went very oddly. I went through it quite rapidly the first time, since I felt that I had gone over the material so many times that I either had it or I didn't. Then I looked at my grade and discovered a large number of questions to which I had supposedly marked an answer which I had not marked at all, and a few that I had not known and marked wrongly. I went through it again quite quickly, correcting those answers of which I had not been certain the first time through, and was given a mark of 95% with one supposed error, that of which caminos had been added to the UNESCO list of world heritage sites in 1993. I marked the exact same caminos as I had the first time, copying them from the list which I had in front of me. Both times through, I was marked wrong for a list supposedly beginning with the Camino Mozarabe, which I had not marked either time. The whole process was very odd. The mark is not really significant to me, but it might be for someone who has paid for the course, particularly if given a failing grade or if the grade given wrongly was recorded on a certificate. Unless, of course, a higher grade than earned was on record.
I have already spent some time on Modulo III and shall finish the course by May 3. I hope. In any case, I have the time to review the texts and watch the videos. This has been challenging so far, but interesting and worth doing. In addition to learning about the caminos, my major project has been to get my brain working again, which has been successful so far. I think.

 

[Canche]

Well, I got through all the modulos passing I and II. I flunked Modulo III three times even though I went back and listened to it. They only give you three tries. Damn! Well, there goes 40 Euros! I never was a good test taker. Bummer

 

[Albertagirl]

Well, I got through all the modulos passing I and II. I flunked Modulo III three times even though I went back and listened to it. They only give you three tries. Damn! Well, there goes 40 Euros! I never was a good test taker. Bummer

My sympathies. I found Modulo III challenging, in particular, the multiple choice test. But I found much of the material interesting, and had no desire to go on beyond Modulo III, so the grade did not much matter. I can see how it would be frustrating to have paid for the course and not be able to get credit for it.

 

[Canche]

My sympathies. I found Modulo III challenging, in particular, the multiple choice test. But I found much of the material interesting, and had no desire to go on beyond Modulo III, so the grade did not much matter. I can see how it would be frustrating to have paid for the course and not be able to get credit for it.

Thank you. Yes I was very frustrated as I passed the other two practically guessing and really
worked on the third one. Pero así es la vida