Bronze age burial site in Spain suggests women were among rulers

[DoughnutANZ]

This article says that excavation of a site at La Almoloya in the southern Spanish region of Murcia suggests that the Bronze Age settlement that flourished here from 2200 BC to 1550 BC was more advanced than the rest of Western Europe at the time and may have had women among its rulers.

Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ite-in-spain-suggests-women-were-among-rulers

Spectacular site to visit.

Map links -
What3words: ///wickets.mister.marina

Google maps: XF3R+3M Pliego, Spain

 

[wayfarer]

It was the same in Ireland for a while, look up "Brehon Laws" women and men had equal rights, they could do with bringing them back again these days but sadly they disappeared with the arrival of Christianity as far as I remember.

 

[David]

I don't think finds like this can be extrapolated to females being rulers. That the wife of a king was covered in gold doesn't make her powerful, only draped in beautiful things. Throughout history high status females have been seen as bearers of children, lineage providers of rulers and dynasties and the means to make alliances.
Pompey Magnus when in argument with civic leaders on an island (Corsica I think) where he landed with his troops for supplies ended the dissent by saying "don't talk to us of rules, we carry swords" - and this seems to be how it has always been, as far back as you can go - the rulers are the ones carrying the swords.

But behind that .. females without swords? They would have used cunning and guile and persuasion to be a force ... think Cleopatra. Think Elizabeth 1st. Also the other high status females; sisters of a queen, a hidden network ... the original Illuminaunties .

Further back on the timeline the oldest city, stone age, that housed about ten thousand people ... lots of work has been done on the skeletons and it shows that males and females did exactly the same work, that it was not polarised into male and female roles and that is suggestive of an equality that would surely have been spread throughout the society.

Though ... it is very easy to be retrodictive, to view the past with the eyes of the present and we should be careful not to do this, don't you think?

 

[Stroller]

We should also not present speculation in the absence of proof as fact or make the evidence we have fit the story we want to believe. Bad science.

 

[Kathor1]

There is a link in the Guardian article that points to the published research article where the difference between prestige objects and emblematic objects is explained , such as the diadems, and what kind of conclusions it allows about the economic and political structure of this ancient society.

 

[chinacat]

the original Illuminaunties

Though ... it is very easy to be retrodictive, to view the past with the eyes of the present and we should be careful not to do this, don't you think?

Indeed we should!


PS Boudicca?
... a woman with a sword ...

 

[Former member 49149]

I don't think finds like this can be extrapolated to females being rulers. That the wife of a king was covered in gold doesn't make her powerful, only draped in beautiful things. Throughout history high status females have been seen as bearers of children, lineage providers of rulers and dynasties and the means to make alliances.
Pompey Magnus when in argument with civic leaders on an island (Corsica I think) where he landed with his troops for supplies ended the dissent by saying "don't talk to us of rules, we carry swords" - and this seems to be how it has always been, as far back as you can go - the rulers are the ones carrying the swords.

But behind that .. females without swords? They would have used cunning and guile and persuasion to be a force ... think Cleopatra. Think Elizabeth 1st. Also the other high status females; sisters of a queen, a hidden network ... the original Illuminaunties .

Further back on the timeline the oldest city, stone age, that housed about ten thousand people ... lots of work has been done on the skeletons and it shows that males and females did exactly the same work, that it was not polarised into male and female roles and that is suggestive of an equality that would surely have been spread throughout the society.

Though ... it is very easy to be retrodictive, to view the past with the eyes of the present and we should be careful not to do this, don't you think?

I will dare: a new word for me today: retrodictive. Thank you. I do understand it, but I just have never seen it. A good friend is a proper historian, so I know about being careful with lenses. I dare not comment on the topic though, as I have not read the article referenced by OP.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I will dare: a new word for me today: retrodictive. Thank you. I do understand it, but I just have never seen it. A good friend is a proper historian, so I know about being careful with lenses. I dare not comment on the topic though, as I have not read the article referenced by OP.

Retrodictive was a new word for me today, too. Remembering what I learn is sometimes the hard part.

 

[wayfarer]

Retrodictive was a new word for me today, too. Remembering what I learn is sometimes the hard part.

We were always told "Its a bad day that you don't learn something new"

 

[Former member 49149]

This article says that excavation of a site at La Almoloya in the southern Spanish region of Murcia suggests that the Bronze Age settlement that flourished here from 2200 BC to 1550 BC was more advanced than the rest of Western Europe at the time and may have had women among its rulers.

Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ite-in-spain-suggests-women-were-among-rulers

Spectacular site to visit.

Map links -
What3words: ///wickets.mister.marina

Google maps: XF3R+3M Pliego, Spain

Thank you for this article. I do not give one whit about proving anything or disproving it either. I have not got the kind of discipline for that, although I do seriously respect and appreciate the offerings of those who do - how else would I keep on learning? there are many members on the forum who teach me many things. I just like learning about things I know nothing about. I mean, it will not add a cubit to my span of life to know that "Among the exquisitely crafted items were bracelets, rings and a rare type of crown, known as a diadem. In total 230 grams of silver were found at the burial site – an amount that at the time would have been worth the equivalent of 938 daily wages." - but it is still interesting to know.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I do not give one whit about proving anything or disproving it either. I have not got the kind of discipline for that, although I do seriously respect and appreciate the offerings of those who do - how else would I keep on learning?

And similarly, I learned a bit more by googling this...I never knew so many queens had fought in battle. I only knew of one.

 

[David]

There is a link in the Guardian article that points to the published research article where the difference between prestige objects and emblematic objects is explained , such as the diadems, and what kind of conclusions it allows about the economic and political structure of this ancient society.

Well actually they are merely trying to introduce the use of 'emblematic' in place of 'prestige' as more can be developed from it. The report also has an error, quite a grave one (pun intended) as the diadem, the simple crown, found on the female has led them to think in terms of female leaders, queens, whereas the opposite is true. If such an object were a sign of leadership, male or female, then they would be found in both male and female high status tombs, but they are not. It is a device specifically worn by females, whereas the high status male does not have any form of crown and the reason is obvious. The next male in line then wears that crown.
If the female were a leader then the same would happen, the grave would not have a diadem as the next female leader would be wearing it. Consider female Pharaohs - they wore the same 'leader' emblems as the males, even down to a false beard.

They have made assumptions that are not based upon clarity of mind. Nothing that they have found has in any way given power or leadership (or equality in any form) to high status females of that period. Unless a lost society had writing and records are found all can only be assumptions, and assumptions are based upon the fashionable beliefs of our present time.

By the way I am not suggesting in any way that there were no female leaders, queens, with absolute power, history is filled with them ...

 

[Kathor1]

The report also has an error, quite a grave one

I was looking for the email addresses of the authors, Vicente Lull , Cristina Rihuete-Herrada , Roberto Risch , Bárbara Bonora , Eva Celdrán-Beltrán , Maria Inés Fregeiro , Claudia Molero , Adrià Moreno , Camila Oliart , Carlos Velasco-Felipe , Lourdes Andúgar , Wolfgang Haak , Vanessa Villalba-Mouco , and Rafael Micó, so that this grave error in their report could be pointed out to them but looking for their email addresses is easier said than done.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

And all this connects to the Camino de Santiago... how?

 

[David]

I was looking for the email addresses of the authors, Vicente Lull , Cristina Rihuete-Herrada , Roberto Risch , Bárbara Bonora , Eva Celdrán-Beltrán , Maria Inés Fregeiro , Claudia Molero , Adrià Moreno , Camila Oliart , Carlos Velasco-Felipe , Lourdes Andúgar , Wolfgang Haak , Vanessa Villalba-Mouco , and Rafael Micó, so that this grave error in their report could be pointed out to them but looking for their email addresses is easier said than done.

Please be kind.
read the article yourself and you will see the error. ('grave' error was a pun joke)
Please be kind - if you want to be rude please message me privately.

 

[peregrina2000]

The Guardian seems to be on a roll with fascinating articles about deserted Spanish villages coming back to life, how to become a female shephard in Spain, and now this.

And all this connects to the Camino de Santiago... how?

Well, I suppose if you want to be a stickler, we could suggest that it must have some relation to the Ruta de Argar from Lorca, which appears on the fabulous Spanish map and which @JillGat asked about recently. The Argar, I learned in the article, is the name given to the society located near Murcia during the Bronze Age. More research needed to determine whether the route actually goes through this site. But I think we have long been tolerant of interesting threads and articles about Spain, be they about history, art, society, music, etc.... just so long as they don’t enter that tempting forbidden territory.

 

[malingerer]

The Guardian seems to be on a roll with fascinating articles about deserted Spanish villages coming back to life, how to become a female shephard in Spain, and now this.



Well, I suppose if you want to be a stickler, we could suggest that it must have some relation to the Ruta de Argar from Lorca, which appears on the fabulous Spanish map and which @JillGat asked about recently. The Argar, I learned in the article, is the name given to the society located near Murcia during the Bronze Age. More research needed to determine whether the route actually goes through this site. But I think we have long been tolerant of interesting threads and articles about Spain, be they about history, art, society, music, etc.... just so long as they don’t enter that tempting forbidden territory.

Isn't that what tempting forbidden territory is for as I used to try and explain to a variety of coppers in the days of me youth in her Majesty's Royal Navy afore legging it like the clappers with them in hot pursuit!

I could run in them days. They used to have dogs to get me. Now I just wave me bus pass and claim a temporary aberration"

Samarkand.

 

[Pelegrin]

By the way I am not suggesting in any way that there were no female leaders, queens, with absolute power, history is filled with them ...

In fact. these days is also a news that a woman called Ana Martinez is going to be the president of the Autonomous Community of Murcia after a motion of censure to the current president.

 

[alexwalker]

This article says that excavation of a site at La Almoloya in the southern Spanish region of Murcia suggests that the Bronze Age settlement that flourished here from 2200 BC to 1550 BC was more advanced than the rest of Western Europe at the time and may have had women among its rulers.

Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ite-in-spain-suggests-women-were-among-rulers

Spectacular site to visit.

Map links -
What3words: ///wickets.mister.marina

Google maps: XF3R+3M Pliego, Spain

Nothing has changed, then...

 

[Marzar]

And all this connects to the Camino de Santiago... how?

spain

 

[Bristle Boy]

spain

Historical interest. It's all a journey when I think about it.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

The Guardian seems to be on a roll with fascinating articles about deserted Spanish villages coming back to life, how to become a female shephard in Spain, and now this.



Well, I suppose if you want to be a stickler, we could suggest that it must have some relation to the Ruta de Argar from Lorca, which appears on the fabulous Spanish map and which @JillGat asked about recently. The Argar, I learned in the article, is the name given to the society located near Murcia during the Bronze Age. More research needed to determine whether the route actually goes through this site. But I think we have long been tolerant of interesting threads and articles about Spain, be they about history, art, society, music, etc.... just so long as they don’t enter that tempting forbidden territory.

Unfortunately that route seems to go to the West and the closest reasonable size village/town is about 35klm away but there is another route to the East that is a little closer and it sits in a national park so definitely worth a side trip

 

[Kathor1]

Unfortunately that route seems to go to the West and the closest reasonable size village/town is about 35klm away but there is another route to the East that is a little closer and it sits in a national park so definitely worth a side trip

This Wikipedia article lists about 20 known Argar settlements. It seems that one of them in particular, near Lorca, has been opened for visitors.

Excavated Argar objects can be admired in museums, again in particular in Lorca. Google Arts & Culture has a nice presentation about the Prehistory: The Society of El Argar.

I had no idea of the existence of this amazing Bronze Age culture of the Argar. If I were to walk there, I would not want to miss it !!!

 

[Kathor1]

Nowadays, one would be hard-pressed to find a location in Spain that is not on or near a camino de Santiago.

 

[peregrina2000]

but there is another route to the East that is a little closer and it sits in a national park

And which Camino is that? I am having trouble figuring that out!

 

[DoughnutANZ]

And which Camino is that? I am having trouble figuring that out!

I am not sure of the name as I am a meer amateur here but it is on my Google Maps via the excellent overlay from one of the other posters last year. I am going to be off-line for a bit so not able to look it up at the 'mo, sorry.

 

[peregrina2000]

A recent article updates the study of the Argar. A doctoral student in Barcelona has recreated faces. Genetic testing has been done.

The article notes that “the gender politics of El Argar continues to be debated,” and there is some fascinating research that shows that during the Bronze Age, the women stopped marrying “local boys” and turned to “steppe-descended men.” Within a century, the steppe-descended men had replaced the locals entirely.

You Should See Her in a Crown. Now You Can See Her Face. (Published 2021)

New research is solving mysteries linked to the La Almoloya burial site and revealing a genetic history of an ancient European people.

www.nytimes.com

 

[OzAnnie]

A recent article updates the study of the Argar. A doctoral student in Barcelona has recreated faces. Genetic testing has been done.

Such an interesting topic! -the article took my attention for some time.

I find it so ‘wow’ - that this sort of information can be gleaned nowadays due to advances in science.

]] from the NYTimes article above in peregrina2000’s post.

[[[. Ms. Bruno proposed that the two were related — and genomic analysis proved her right. The man was the girl’s father.

“The fact that AY38/2 is the father of AY30/2 gives further support to retrognathism as a relevant marker of Argaric populations,” said Cristina Rihuete Herrada, a professor of prehistory at the Autonomous University of Barcelona and one of the discoverers of the burial site.]]]

As @Kathar1na quoted earlier this year …

I had no idea of the existence of this amazing Bronze Age culture of the Argar. If I were to walk there, I would not want to miss it !!!

I wouldn’t miss it either.

 

[alexwalker]

We men are the rulers. I have my wife's permission to say so.

 

[alexwalker]

Bronze age woman and husband. Guess who is who.