Depopulation in Spain

[peregrina2000]

A friend just sent me a pdf of a recent Financial Times article talking about the population deserts in Spain, including a few dire predictions. Made me think of the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado in the town of Fasgar, population 8, who are now essentially self-sufficient.

I've attached a copy. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[William Marques]

I had lunch in town last week, my companion knew the waiter and told me that he had two advanced scientific degrees and could not find work in Spain so was serving tables in London.

 

[Olivares]

I had the chance to talk to many locals while on the Camino (Frances) this last summer. Young and old, there seems to be a very pessimistic view of where the country is and where is heading to, more so given the tremendous young talent leaving the country by hordes. After the Camino, I went on to visit relatives in Poland. Same thing as far as young people almost forced to seek a living elsewhere.

 

[Olivares]

I had lunch in town last week, my companion knew the waiter and told me that he had two advanced scientific degrees and could not find work in Spain so was serving tables in London.

I know of Spaniards with engineering degrees that, purposely, applied for any job in the UK because they want to learn English. English classes in Spain are not cheap and they reckon this method is probably a compressed, advanced course....

 

[Icacos]

A friend just sent me a pdf of a recent Financial Times article talking about the population deserts in Spain, including a few dire predictions. Made me think of the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado in the town of Fasgar, population 8, who are now essentially self-sufficient.

I've attached a copy. Buen camino, Laurie

So sorry to hear this. (I haven't read the article yet, but I will.)

And here we are fussing about a bit of garbage on the Camino.

 

[fernandezr]

A friend just sent me a pdf of a recent Financial Times article talking about the population deserts in Spain, including a few dire predictions. Made me think of the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado in the town of Fasgar, population 8, who are now essentially self-sufficient.

I've attached a copy. Buen camino, Laurie

This is a common phenomenon in many places; I know a man who is a medical doctor in Mexico and is working here in California as a garbage collector. He makes more money collecting garbage in California than he would make as a medical doctor in Mexico (so he told me). I also know Mexicans with engineering degrees who can't find work in Mexico. Last September I was in a town called Calzadilla de los Hermanillos on the Camino just before Leon. There was almost nothing in the town and a large numbers of the houses were boarded up. Many houses were in very bad condition although some were recently upgraded and looked quite nice, although unoccupied. I encountered some elderly people at one house and asked them how many people were living in the town. They told me there were 200 houses but only about 100 people living there full time; some of the upgraded houses belonged to people who lived in the city but came out there on weekends for peace and quiet. I asked them why there were so few people and they explained that the agriculture that takes place in the fields around there used to be done by many workers but mechanization had eliminated the need for the men to do the work so they have left. Is Spain being destroyed by progress?

 

[KinkyOne]

The whole world and our culture (ethics) has being destroyed. It's turning in opposite, wrong direction for a while now, haven't you notice that?

More, more, more, more, more..................

 

[CaptBuddy]

Careful, don't judge all of Spain by the narrow Camino corridor.

But do remember, the only constant is change.

 

[KinkyOne]

Careful, don't judge all of Spain by the narrow Camino corridor.

But do remember, the only constant is change.

Me?

 

[peregrina2000]

The whole world and our culture (ethics) has being destroyed. It's turning in opposite, wrong direction for a while now, haven't you notice that?

More, more, more, more, more..................

Well, Kinky,
You'd love the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado. They had essentially decided they were never going to get ahead working in the city with low paying jobs, a child in daycare, rent, etc, and so about a year and a half ago, they moved back to the family homestead in Fasgar. It's at the end of the road, literally, the only way to get to the next stage on the Olvidado is over the mountain and through the Campo de Santiago, where Santiago supposedly appeared to help fight the Moors (or take the road 85 km around), but I digress.

They have become essentially self-sufficient. They have a huge garden, sell some high quality foodie type potatoes to some ag company, keep some animals. During the summer months, the town gives her the concession in the town "bar" because there are about 82 homes occupied in summer months. During the winter they are 4 (husband, wife, grandpa, 3 year old) of the town's 8 or 9 year round residents. They opened their home to me and they talked quite openly about their decision. It wasn't entirely a "oh wow, let's get back to the basics and live off the grid" kind of decision, it was more a decision based on the fact that hard as they worked they were always behind at the end of the month. The husband is in construction and gets the occasional job. A school bus picks up the 3 year old for school about 20 km away, which will work till high school/instituto age. Then they don't know what will happen.

It's not a bed of roses, of course, I know it's easy to romanticize about this. But they will both tell you without hesitation that their quality of life has improved many times over and that they are determined to make their lives in town. It's hard work, of course -- in fact I just got the pictures from the matanza, which I'll put here in the bottom. Even the three year old helped making the sausage! I've got an open invitation to go help out and I would absolutely love to be a part of this some year.

They would love to have an albergue if the traffic on the Olvidado ever picked up, but who knows how long that will take. In any event, they are certainly well poised to do it. I could go on and on, but they should give you some optimism that not everything is going in the wrong direction. I'm doubtful that they are part of a back to the land revolution, I'm pretty sure the statistics all point towards depopulation and relentless urbanization, but there are some bright spots like this.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[Deleted member 3000]

the only constant is change

Almost every town in France has a train station. But no trains. New high speed trains are designed to compete with airplanes.
French towns may have three boarded up bakeries. Bread is purchased in cities.
Before World War I, land outside of villages was divided into paddocks with rock walls. The walls remain, but trees and scrub brush have taken over the paddocks. So many men were killed in the war that no one was left to farm the parcels. Corporate farms now use heavy equipment.
Very little French wine sees an oak cask. Wine is made to drink now, so no aging is needed. Farmers sell their grapes to stainless steel wine producers. Few small vintners make their own wine. Oak forests are disappearing, since they are not needed for casks. Cork orchards, too, are disappearing in Portugal, replaced by the synthetic bottle cork.
Similar factors have changed Spain, but 20% unemployment dominating the economy for a decade.

 

[KinkyOne]

Nicely put, Laurie!

It's not about romanticizing or being over idealistical. That's the plus which I wasn't talking about. But let's not get into negative things. They've chosen (mostly because there was no other option) the life they live now. And that's the life I remember as a child. Asking myself now what's wrong with it??? Nothing really...
I didn't eat tripes for years because my mother made me clean them (and other intestines) when we've slaughtered a pig/calf etc. The smell. Ugghhhhhh... But right now I'm a master of preparing tripes. Why? Asking forgiveness and developed kind of devotion to prepare best food for loved ones. I kind of figured it out that was essential in the times before me. Nature of things.
Nowadays it's hard even in my country although unemployment isn't so high as in Spain, but overall situation is almost the same (young highly educated fleeing abroad etc.). EU (with help of other international financial institutions) is pushing us slowly to the edge. That's why my "protest" against: more, more, more, more, more,....

But I guess I'm just hijacking the thread. Sorry for my bitterness regarding the topic

 

[peregrina2000]

Nicely put, Laurie!

It's not about romanticizing or being over idealistical. That's the plus which I wasn't talking about. But let's not get into negative things. They've chosen (mostly because there was no other option) the life they live now. And that's the life I remember as a child. Asking myself now what's wrong with it??? Nothing really...
I didn't eat tripes for years because my mother made me clean them (and other intestines) when we've slaughtered a pig/calf etc. The smell. Ugghhhhhh... But right now I'm a master of preparing tripes. Why? Asking forgiveness and developed kind of devotion to prepare best food for loved ones. I kind of figured it out that was essential in the times before me. Nature of things.
Nowadays it's hard even in my country although unemployment isn't so high as in Spain, but overall situation is almost the same (young highly educated fleeing abroad etc.). EU (with help of other international financial institutions) is pushing us slowly to the edge. That's why my "protest" against: more, more, more, more, more,....

But I guess I'm just hijacking the thread. Sorry for my bitterness regarding the topic

Hi, Kinky, I think the obvious solution here is for you to walk the Olvidado and spend a few days in Fasgar!

 

[KinkyOne]

Hi, Kinky, I think the obvious solution here is for you to walk the Olvidado and spend a few days in Fasgar!

Or start living in any of the desolated villages on either Camino

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola Laurie - looks like that's another small town we will have to add to our list after we reach SDC in early Oct next year. Thanks for a great post, "getting back to nature" or becoming self-sufficient is not all that new and is starting to take-off in many parts of the Western World (USA/Aust etc). Cheers.

 

[Bajaracer]

I met a girl from Bilbao who was cycling the Camino last summer, she told me that 57% of young adults under 25 are unemployed. She got her Masters in Statistics from Oklahoma State University, and told me she was probably going to have to go to the US to find work commensurate with her degree.

 

[cherrys]

A friend just sent me a pdf of a recent Financial Times article talking about the population deserts in Spain, including a few dire predictions. Made me think of the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado in the town of Fasgar, population 8, who are now essentially self-sufficient.

I've attached a copy. Buen camino, Laurie

Thanks for posting that, Laurie. It definitely makes one think and worry about all the sparsely populated/abandoned villages that we've all walked through, and what their fates may be. My daughter-in-law's family, who live in tiny Herreruela, about an hour or so west of Madrid, have hit hard times with their sheep and pig farming, and have had to give up a lot of it, her sisters now live and work in Madrid. Incidentally, one of them married a hospitalero she met in Estella. Most of the family has walked at least part if not all of the camino, and were very pleased that I wanted to do it to honor my father, whom they all met at my son's wedding.

 

[scruffy1]

We walk through parts of Spain through populated settlements which can offer food and a place for out weary heads (feet). More than a decade ago this population issue was easily noticed by anyone driving a car at night. Many highways sign marked towns and villages which were pitch dark as you drove past, not a soul. Hotels and restaurants abandoned, shut down, or boarded over. People then moved to the cities where employment was better, farming not supported as well as say France. Distances can be huge in Spain so transportation of goods or people expensive. Ambitious people left for the cities. There was a small movement back by those who could work from a distance by computer but the economy sagged again and many left. Rural France is not much better, the Vezelay Camino passes places that were once thriving towns now sad-easy to find a kebab shop hard to find a French restaurant, local churches offer mass once or twice a month, another issue not only tied to population. Sad but people have to make a living.

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Lots of us in the UK - and the USA? - are really fortunate: we have jobs, we have funds and we have hope. Sometimes 'all' we can do is say a prayer for those millions who are worse off than we are, and be grateful and content with what we have.

 

[bystander]

This thread and the FT article remind me of somewhere else where the same depopulation occurred.
Different causes and reasons but similar results.
Where?
The 18th and 19th century Scottish Highland clearances.

 

[wayfarer]

We have had something similar during the recent recession and of course during all previous recessions. All the young people emigrate to Australia, America, Canada and any place else they can get work. Many parishes here did not have enough players left to field a parish football team during this recession. This has been a re occuring theme in my lifetime and before but has not been as bad as described by the FT since our famine.

 

[Olivares]

It is because of many reasons posted above that I had no doubt or hesitation on the ocassion I paid a little extra to stay in a private room or even the ocassional bag transfer. No different today than in the 9th Century when those who could helped sustain economies along the Camino.

 

[Al the optimist]

We have had something similar during the recent recession and of course during all previous recessions. All the young people emigrate to Australia, America, Canada and any place else they can get work. Many parishes here did not have enough players left to field a parish football team during this recession. This has been a re occuring theme in my lifetime and before but has not been as bad as described by the FT since our famine.

Personally (tongue in cheek) I will be happy when you don't have enough to field a strong national rugby team for us to worry about in the 6 Nations!

 

[Al the optimist]

Some years ago I taught a residential English course in a small Sergovian pueblo north of Madrid. The place was almost uninhabited during the week as many went to Madrid to work Monday to Friday. I think that the population was some 300 but most of the time there were only a couple of dozen or so around. I find that because of this time teaching in Spain I have friends scattered around the country. Nearly all of them are well educated, mostly middle-aged ex-professionals. I say ex because many of them held high salaried positions in companies that have either closed/reduced staff because of the recession or were let go when their company was taken over by a foreign company, often German. For many Spanish people the need to speak a high level of English proves a barrier. One friend who speaks Portuguese found that he had to take short term work in Brazil, leaving his family behind in Bilbao. We have worked on his English and now he has work in Tineo but the family has had to uproot. Others some years later others are still unemployed. It saddens me, especially when they talk of their children having to emigrate. I love Spain and really hate the problems it has.

 

[Albertinho]

I know of Spaniards with engineering degrees that, purposely, applied for any job in the UK because they want to learn English. English classes in Spain are not cheap and they reckon this method is probably a compressed, advanced course....

The last two years I was and still am a volontairy mental-and (dutch) language coach for an engineer from Madrid who was hoping to find a new job here in the Netherlands due to the unemployment in his own country. he succeeded in talking acceptable Dutch and reasonably fast found a new and good job in his own field here. He must have been a lucky one .

 

[Kitsambler]

The southern half of France is in similar straits. Agribusiness removes agricultural jobs, while the TGV makes it easy to get into and out of the metro areas. Several sections of the Le Puy route keep going on the strength of the expat economy. On the other hand, large swathes of the US have been depopulated in similar fashion (think Nebraska and the Dakotas, at least before the fracking boom).

 

[joe g texas aggies]

The southern half of France is in similar straits. Agribusiness removes agricultural jobs, while the TGV makes it easy to get into and out of the metro areas. Several sections of the Le Puy route keep going on the strength of the expat economy. On the other hand, large swathes of the US have been depopulated in similar fashion (think Nebraska and the Dakotas, at least before the fracking boom).

Don't want to get into a political debate here, but the loss of small farms to larger agribusinesses is the natural order of the world. We all want less expensive food and the low cost producer will replace the higher cost producer. At the end of the day, competition is good as it raises the standard of living for all of us. There will always be creative destruction - think of the buggy and buggy whip makers when the horseless carriage arrived on the scene.

I read an interesting paper several years ago that noted that the birth rate in northern Europe is very low and the populations in many countries will decline. Except for immigration, the US is close to being in the same situation.

 

[Al the optimist]

In England the concern is of it rising without the birth rate increasing.

 

[Mark Lee]

Well, Kinky,
You'd love the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado. They had essentially decided they were never going to get ahead working in the city with low paying jobs, a child in daycare, rent, etc, and so about a year and a half ago, they moved back to the family homestead in Fasgar. It's at the end of the road, literally, the only way to get to the next stage on the Olvidado is over the mountain and through the Campo de Santiago, where Santiago supposedly appeared to help fight the Moors (or take the road 85 km around), but I digress.

They have become essentially self-sufficient. They have a huge garden, sell some high quality foodie type potatoes to some ag company, keep some animals. During the summer months, the town gives her the concession in the town "bar" because there are about 82 homes occupied in summer months. During the winter they are 4 (husband, wife, grandpa, 3 year old) of the town's 8 or 9 year round residents. They opened their home to me and they talked quite openly about their decision. It wasn't entirely a "oh wow, let's get back to the basics and live off the grid" kind of decision, it was more a decision based on the fact that hard as they worked they were always behind at the end of the month. The husband is in construction and gets the occasional job. A school bus picks up the 3 year old for school about 20 km away, which will work till high school/instituto age. Then they don't know what will happen.

It's not a bed of roses, of course, I know it's easy to romanticize about this. But they will both tell you without hesitation that their quality of life has improved many times over and that they are determined to make their lives in town. It's hard work, of course -- in fact I just got the pictures from the matanza, which I'll put here in the bottom. Even the three year old helped making the sausage! I've got an open invitation to go help out and I would absolutely love to be a part of this some year.

They would love to have an albergue if the traffic on the Olvidado ever picked up, but who knows how long that will take. In any event, they are certainly well poised to do it. I could go on and on, but they should give you some optimism that not everything is going in the wrong direction. I'm doubtful that they are part of a back to the land revolution, I'm pretty sure the statistics all point towards depopulation and relentless urbanization, but there are some bright spots like this.

Buen camino, Laurie

View attachment 15275 View attachment 15276 View attachment 15277 View attachment 15278 View attachment 15279 View attachment 15280

Nice photos. Thanks.
Yum. Love that Spanish chorizo. Could eat a big piece of it right now with some fresh, crusty Spanish bread. Goes good with a cold San Miguel beer.

 

[KinkyOne]

Don't want to get into a political debate here, ...
At the end of the day, competition is good as it raises the standard of living for all of us.

Neither do I, but it's quite obvious that competition doesn't mean equal (or rising) standard of living for each of us...

 

[fernandezr]

Well, Kinky,
You'd love the family I stayed with on the Camino Olvidado. They had essentially decided they were never going to get ahead working in the city with low paying jobs, a child in daycare, rent, etc, and so about a year and a half ago, they moved back to the family homestead in Fasgar. It's at the end of the road, literally, the only way to get to the next stage on the Olvidado is over the mountain and through the Campo de Santiago, where Santiago supposedly appeared to help fight the Moors (or take the road 85 km around), but I digress.

They have become essentially self-sufficient. They have a huge garden, sell some high quality foodie type potatoes to some ag company, keep some animals. During the summer months, the town gives her the concession in the town "bar" because there are about 82 homes occupied in summer months. During the winter they are 4 (husband, wife, grandpa, 3 year old) of the town's 8 or 9 year round residents. They opened their home to me and they talked quite openly about their decision. It wasn't entirely a "oh wow, let's get back to the basics and live off the grid" kind of decision, it was more a decision based on the fact that hard as they worked they were always behind at the end of the month. The husband is in construction and gets the occasional job. A school bus picks up the 3 year old for school about 20 km away, which will work till high school/instituto age. Then they don't know what will happen.

It's not a bed of roses, of course, I know it's easy to romanticize about this. But they will both tell you without hesitation that their quality of life has improved many times over and that they are determined to make their lives in town. It's hard work, of course -- in fact I just got the pictures from the matanza, which I'll put here in the bottom. Even the three year old helped making the sausage! I've got an open invitation to go help out and I would absolutely love to be a part of this some year.

They would love to have an albergue if the traffic on the Olvidado ever picked up, but who knows how long that will take. In any event, they are certainly well poised to do it. I could go on and on, but they should give you some optimism that not everything is going in the wrong direction. I'm doubtful that they are part of a back to the land revolution, I'm pretty sure the statistics all point towards depopulation and relentless urbanization, but there are some bright spots like this.

Buen camino, Laurie

View attachment 15275 View attachment 15276 View attachment 15277 View attachment 15278 View attachment 15279 View attachment 15280

Laurie:
Having been a kid from a California farm family of Portuguese/Italian background, many of the things seen in your pictures are things I saw in my childhood. That is a life that is "back to basics" and hard work but, as Jesus once said, "the cup may be dirty on the outside but it is clean on the inside". The older, traditional values that go with that life style served people very well for centuries; I don't think some of the modern world's values are very good for us and for society. The easy way to do something isn't always the best.

 

[Julio Gone Camino]

Interesting article!

In a way, travel - walking in particular - can have a real impact on small, local communities in the way other efforts at regeneration can't.

The Camino Frances is a unique phenomenon in that it is a path with unusually high traffic. The benefits to local businesses and villages along the route are huge, and walkers, in particular, tend to spend a little here and a little there, spread out across the whole route, rather than buy a package where the profits and benefits are largely confined to areas away from the local area.

However, those businesses a little off to the side may not share as abundantly in proceeds. Perhaps the Camino can help with that as it's ability to influence the local economy is relatively high.

The best comparisons for other parts of Spain may well be the other pilgrim routes. These paths, though, can still do the same in bringing passing trade into the area as, again, passers-by spend a little here and a little there as they go.

Not everywhere has the benefit of a "Camino" or a pilgrimage route to tap into, but what could be achieved by establishing new long distance paths in these less-well-known areas? Pilgrims may choose to walk for many reasons, one of which is a love of a long walks! And other countries do well from their long distance paths - in the UK, for instance, it is understood that every £1 invested in walking infrasturcture yields about £7 to the local economy - in other words, income generation for all sorts of small businesses in those areas, so money well spent.

Perhaps, then, a new LDP could bring income from outside and increased prosperity in a low-impact, evenly spread way to areas such as those described? After all, one of the attractions to long-distance walkers is untouched, off-the-beaten-track places and remote landscapes.

 

[JillGat]

A number of friends of mine in the US have moved out of cities and gone to live in rural parts of the country, because their jobs are online. With Covid, more and more is moving online and this is kind of a good trend in some ways.

 

[C clearly]

There's an article in El Pais about this.

How remote work is bringing life back to Spain’s rural villages

Small communities are trying to attract residents with initiatives focused on improving internet connection and cheap renewable energy

english.elpais.com

 

[peregrina2000]

Thanks for posting that recent update. Very interesting! I was a little surprised that the most important service everyone went on and on about was internet - important, sure, but what about schools and health care, etc?

In some ways, the situation in Spain is even worse than it looks. From what I understand, in Spain you can choose where to be “censado” (counted for the census), and many people use their “pueblos” where they own property for purposes of preserving services and keeping the town alive. I’ve had so many sad conversations with people in Spain who see that unless a child moves in the school will close next year (and I think the minimum is something incredibly generous like 6), or that the bar will close, etc.

@Rick of Rick and Peg once posted a link to a Spanish TV show “Me Vuelvo al Pueblo” that had a segment about a family who returned to Montamarta (on the Sanabrés). It’s in this thread. I just did a little searching and see that this show is still going strong and there are lots of episodes to choose from.

Me vuelvo al Pueblo

El programa descubre las ventajas de vivir en el medio rural a través del testimonio de sus protagonistas, gentes que han elegido distintos pueblos de Castilla y León para vivir.

www.cyltv.es

I wonder if @JillGat’s observation will turn into a real trend.

 

[David Tallan]

Thanks for posting that recent update. Very interesting! I was a little surprised that the most important service everyone went on and on about was internet - important, sure, but what about schools and health care, etc?

In some ways, the situation in Spain is even worse than it looks. From what I understand, in Spain you can choose where to be “censado” (counted for the census), and many people use their “pueblos” where they own property for purposes of preserving services and keeping the town alive. I’ve had so many sad conversations with people in Spain who see that unless a child moves in the school will close next year (and I think the minimum is something incredibly generous like 6), or that the bar will close, etc.

@Rick of Rick and Peg once posted a link to a Spanish TV show “Me Vuelvo al Pueblo” that had a segment about a family who returned to Montamarta (on the Sanabrés). It’s in this thread. I just did a little searching and see that this show is still going strong and there are lots of episodes to choose from.

Me vuelvo al Pueblo

El programa descubre las ventajas de vivir en el medio rural a través del testimonio de sus protagonistas, gentes que han elegido distintos pueblos de Castilla y León para vivir.

www.cyltv.es

I wonder if @JillGat’s observation will turn into a real trend.

I think internet is important because it is what allows them to work from the pueblo.

As to amenities like bars: after we had finished our Camino in 2016, my son and I spent some time in Madrid. We were bar hopping on the street of mesones by the Plaza Mayor and chanced into a conversation with a fellow from one of the pueblos on the Camino Frances. He said that when he was growing up there, there were no shops, bars or other amenities. Just regular visits from the vans bringing bread, groceries, etc. Now there are two albergues, a bar, a grocery store...