Frances vs Portugues for self-reflection

[dtoug]

Hello!

I am planning a first-time Camino starting in mid-September 2023 and wondering from those who have done the Portugues from Porto vs the Frances from SJPDP if you felt there was a significant difference in the experience in terms of time for self-reflection, spirituality and growth between the 10-14d Portugues and the 30-32d Frances. I can find lots of information about both routes online but not much specifically on the inner experience with the two routes.

I would ideally like to have a mixture of some space and time to myself as well as some time meeting others. I think the Portugues is appealing for the beautiful coastal vistas (if starting on the coastal route) and for being a little less busy than the Frances but still having developed infrastructure especially if not going in the off-season but I wonder if there is something about the length of the Frances and/or the pilgrim experience that others have found irreplaceable when considering the self-reflection/spiritual experience of the camino.

A bit about me in case it will help with specific suggestions for me:
- I'm a 20-something woman from Canada going alone. I'm comfortable traveling by myself in North America but I have not traveled to Europe alone before.
- I'm conversant in French but don't speak Spanish or Portugese.
- I would be interested in stopping at churches/participating in masses along the way
- I'm not particularly physically active but young and healthy enough that I feel I could handle the walking requirements of either route with some training, which I should have time to do.
- I'm fortunate to not have a specific end date required as I'm graduating and will be looking for work on my return home so time-wise I could do either route. I can leave later than mid-September but not earlier.

Thank you for any suggestions/advice!

 

[JimG59]

Having completed the Camino Frances last Sept/Oct (32days) and just about to commence the Camino Portuguese from Lisbon on 6 April I’m afraid I just lack the experience to answer your questions.
What I would suggest is that don’t be too hung up on a spiritual/ self reflection experience. You will “feel it“, or maybe not, no matter which Camino you chose. Ask yourself why you are walking to Santiago?

A question I do have is why not start from Lisbon for a comparable length of journey of self reflection ?

 

[Bradypus]

I've walked the Camino Frances from SJPDP and the Portugues from Porto. For me a longer journey is a greater aid to reflection. The Portugues was a little too short for my taste. But that's not something specially related to the route itself.

 

[Lindsay53]

There is plenty of time for reflection on both Caminos, however, as Bradypus has noted, the Porto-SDC way is short so if you want more time then the Frances is the way to go, or even start the Portugues from Lisbon, which will be a longer and less crowded experience than starting from Porto. I also noticed that the churches in Portugal seemed more likely to be shut than in Spain, however that may just have been my luck when passing.

 

[Rick M]

I agree with @Bradypus . I don't think the choice of the route is the main factor, but do agree that Size Matters. Besides that, with all things being equal, everyone's first Camino should be the Frances.

 

[Bradypus]

I agree with @Bradypus Besides that, with all things being equal, everyone's first Camino should be the Frances.

I disagree. For most of the year the Frances is far too busy for my liking. And I think that others with my preference for solitude might think so too. It was my first Camino and has a special place in my affections but it has changed almost beyond recognition since my first walk. There are many more options these days which might suit a first-timer better if they are of similar mind to me. I walked the Frances in September 2016 to experience for myself the modern Camino in full swing. If that had been my only experience of walking a Camino it would probably have ended prematurely and been my first and last Camino walk.

 

[Rick M]

Absolutely. After all, for you, all things are not equal.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

A question I do have is why not start from Lisbon for a comparable length of journey of self reflection ?

That was my reaction, as well (my bias towards Portugal shows, as often it does.)

One extra plus for Portugal: a lot of older Portuguese speak some French; for many years it was the second language taught in schools. Nowadays, the younger learn English as a second language. So linguistically, you may find it easier than Spain, especially if you consider the longer trip.

Certainly you're likely to have way more time walking alone, if you like that, on the southern half of the Lisbon>Santiago route.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I'd recommend the Francés.

If you want to have time to walk in solitude, walk late in the afternoon (or maybe even during the night, for example in the Meseta). Use alternative routes whenever you see one (there are quite a few that will lead you away from the main path for at least a while). Stay inbetween the usual stages in small towns.

If you want to meet more pilgrims, enjoy communal dinners in the parroquial albergues like Granon. On the Francés there are church services/masses often even in the small towns. When you stay at a parroquial albergue you will be invited to mass of course. Carrion de los Condes albergue with the singing nuns for example, Granon, Logrono parroquial... The Zabaldika parroquial albergue on the hill... The monks in Rabanal...

There's something special to the Francés. Many will disagree, of course, some enjoy the more deserted Caminos more.

More quiet path = more inner reflexion is not necessarily true though.

For me the people of the Camino were a huge part of what helped with inner reflection. Because you talk to people you'd never meet/talk to at home: locals, hospitaleros. Pilgrims from all kinds of countries and social, cultural and economic backgrounds... They make it easy to see things from a totally different perspective, which can be immensely helpful.

I had quite a problem with social anxiety before my first Camino, and I'm an introvert. I still love the Francés. I learned to love people and the sun and the heat. It even taught me some spanish, too, which I didn't speak before!

Anyway. You make your own choice, trust your gut.

Whatever your decision may be, I'm sure you'll have a great time.

Buen Camino!

 

[502550]

Hi, my husband and I walked our first camino this past April/May 2022. We started on the Coastal Portugese but quickly turned inland due to the strong winds on the Coast. We loved the scenery and the amount of people we encountered on the route (not crowded but not lonely either - just the right amount to repeately bump into a reconizable number of people as we walked). We were disappointed to find that most of the little churches we encountered along the way were locked unless it was Sunday. We were totally surprised by this as we had been in France previously where all the little churches were wide open, even in the smallest villages. It was a bit better in Spain. That said, we both managed to have a spritual awakening. We committed to walking into every open church we saw and saying a quick prayer - sometimes we only found one other times 3 or 4; I think only once or twice did we walk a day without an open church at all. As for length, we were concerned that the route from Porto would be too short and planned to walk the Spiritual Variant and the route to Finisterre after we reached Santiago but in the end, our bodies defeated us - we forewent the Spiritual Variant, and rested for a few days In Santiago rather than walk to Finisterre. Good luck with your decision making and “Buen Camino!”

 

[CarolamS]

I agree with others who have suggested that the length of the walk is the bigger decision for you. Maybe if you have the time then take it.
My first Camino was the Portuguese from Porto (Central route) and last year I walked the Frances from Logrono. Remember you can start where you like, provided you walk the final 100km if you want a Compostela. On the Frances you will witness more evidence of historical pilgrimage; that feeling-connection with pilgrims back through time did play a part in my experience on the Frances. On the Portuguese I felt a greater connection with the Roman soldiers who'd walked the path, and I wondered about their feet experience!
What does your gut tell you? I live on the coast so a Coastal Camino doesn't call me. Whatever you choose it will be a great experience and it will be the right one for you.

 

[lt56ny]

Both caminos will be crowded during that time period. Both will probably be pretty hot. I personally walk long caminos (about 1000k) as I need time to "warm up" then to clear my brain and then to walk light and without a lot of clutter or thought. You could always start the from Lisbon if you so choose. There are much fewer pilgrims from Lisbon to Porto than Porto to Santiago. More people walk the central route than the coastal route. I have only walked the central and it was mid October before I left Porto. There were still way more pilgrims from Porto. They are very different caminos in many ways. I would always opt for a longer camino for someone who wishes for contemplation. When it comes to language I speak Spanish well enough to have a decent conversation but I would say overall there are many more Portugues people who speak English than Spaniards. That is just my experience of course.

 

[curlylottie]

I walked the Frances from SJPP last Sept-Oct and am planning on walking the Porto from Lisbon next, maybe this fall. For me, I had plenty of time “to myself” on the Frances, regardless of whether there were people around, and I felt the whole experience was one big conversation with God, regardless of whether there were churches open. I think it’s all up to you.

My recommendation would be to walk the Frances as a first-time pilgrim. I doubt there is anything like it, e.g., it is the most walked and most remembered path and the route most often called “the Camino” by non-pilgrims. Buen Camino!

 

[KellysMom]

I was a solo female pilgrim on the Camino Frances in 2019. I walked in the spring and found it to be just right as far as the number of pilgrims. My reason for going was for self-reflection as well. I stayed in a private room wherever I went because, for the most part, I wanted to be alone. I met some wonderful people along that way who are now my "Camino family" so I had the choice to join in or do things by myself. This May, I am doing the Camino Portuguese from Lisbon and I would have to agree with the others who state it is the time not the route that makes the difference. I don't believe Porto to SDC would be long enough for reflection. Just like in my mind, doing half the CF wouldn't have been enough time either. Hope this helps and Buen Camino!

 

[Bill632]

Hi dtoug, having done both: the Frances Camino from St Jean Pied de Port and the Portuguese from Lisbon, I think both have advantages for different reasons.

I liked the Camino Frances because of the people that I met. Friendships have formed that have continued. It starts with the difficult climb over the Pyrenees which bound many of us as we met over the rest of the Camino. The camaraderie on this Camino is hard to beat.

In contrast, I liked the Camino Portuguese (internal) because unlike the Frances, we only met about thirty people in the walking between Lisbon and Porto. I found the start so different with a long flat walk along the river Tagus. Plenty of time to reflect and ponder life.

So, if you reflect better with lots of people around to discuss big questions (and small) \, I would go the Frances; if you find a need for time alone with long quiet stretches, then the Portuguese is for you. This also has the added advantage of a short trip off the Camino at Tomar to visit Fatima if you like.

We did not find language a big issue in Portugal nor Spain as English seems to be widely understood. We hope to start the Podiensis Camino from Le Puy next month. I wish I knew more French! Buen/Bon Camino!

 

[trecile]

In contrast, I liked the Camino Portuguese (internal) because unlike the Frances, we only met about thirty people in the walking between Lisbon and Porto

That's about twice as many pilgrims as I met between Lisbon and Porto last May!

 

[mferrara]

I've walked the Camino Frances from SJPDP and the Portugues from Porto. For me a longer journey is a greater aid to reflection. The Portugues was a little too short for my taste. But that's not something specially related to the route itself.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[OZAJ]

I tend to agree with those who say that longer is better for the contemplative experience. That is because it takes a while to get into the space where the small stuff goes away. How long varies of course. I have also found that I can spend too much time on a Camino. I have met people who have overdone it to such a degree that they appear demented.

As for which route, I don't think this is the most important matter, provided that you are able to practise detachment whilst in company. Khilwat dar anjuman.

 

[dtoug]

Having completed the Camino Frances last Sept/Oct (32days) and just about to commence the Camino Portuguese from Lisbon on 6 April I’m afraid I just lack the experience to answer your questions.
What I would suggest is that don’t be too hung up on a spiritual/ self reflection experience. You will “feel it“, or maybe not, no matter which Camino you chose. Ask yourself why you are walking to Santiago?

A question I do have is why not start from Lisbon for a comparable length of journey of self reflection ?

Thank you - I will reflect on the "why walk to Santiago" question!

Re: why not start in Lisbon - I'm a bit apprehensive about starting from Lisbon because my understanding is it's a bit more challenging for a first camino as there's less infrastructure and although I would prefer a path that's not TOO crowded I also want to make sure that there's enough people that I feel safe walking alone. So I felt either Porto or SJPDP would be a good origin point.

With that said, I'll definitely take another look at Lisbon and see what I can find out!

 

[dtoug]

I disagree. For most of the year the Frances is far too busy for my liking. And I think that others with my preference for solitude might think so too. It was my first Camino and has a special place in my affections but it has changed almost beyond recognition since my first walk. There are many more options these days which might suit a first-timer better if they are of similar mind to me. I walked the Frances in September 2016 to experience for myself the modern Camino in full swing. If that had been my only experience of walking a Camino it would probably have ended prematurely and been my first and last Camino walk.

Thank you for mentioning this - I think I've been mentally thinking of the Frances as one of the routes appropriate for beginners while the Lisbon to Porto segment is perhaps more "advanced"... but your reference to your first Camino on the Frances before the "modern Camino" is a good reminder that people have been walking first Camino along many routes, developed or not, for a long time and it's not necessarily the case that one cannot start with a "harder" Camino as long as you are prepared.

 

[dtoug]

That was my reaction, as well (my bias towards Portugal shows, as often it does.)

One extra plus for Portugal: a lot of older Portuguese speak some French; for many years it was the second language taught in schools. Nowadays, the younger learn English as a second language. So linguistically, you may find it easier than Spain, especially if you consider the longer trip.

Certainly you're likely to have way more time walking alone, if you like that, on the southern half of the Lisbon>Santiago route.

Very interesting re: French in Portugal! I had no idea it was taught in schools at one point. Portugal does sound lovely as well. I'm hopeful that having knowledge of French will make it a bit easier to learn a bit of Portuguese and/or Spanish prior to going as well.

 

[dtoug]

More quiet path = more inner reflexion is not necessarily true though.

Such a good point! And your description of the Frances sounds truly wonderful Thank you for the tips on ways to break away from crowds if desired - I like the idea of being flexible and having some days with companions and some time for solitude.

 

[dtoug]

Thank you all for your input! It seems clear that most people found a longer time helpful and both the Frances and the Portugues (as well as its variants!) sound like beautiful options. I'll look into Lisbon some more and I feel reassured that there are many ways to do the Frances as well

 

[trecile]

Very interesting re: French in Portugal! I had no idea it was taught in schools at one point

I walked from Lisbon (almost) to Porto last year. One evening there were only two of us at the albergue - me and a French pilgrim. The albergue was attached to a restaurant that was very busy on the Sunday that we were there - I think that it was the only restaurant in town and it seemed that the entire population was there. We were planning on eating dinner there, but apparently the kitchen closed early on Sundays. It was all rather confusing. The owner didn't speak English, but he spoke French so the French pilgrim was able to translate for me, and fortunately I was able to have dinner! As it was Sunday none of the shops were open and I was afraid that I'd have to go to bed hungry.

 

[dtoug]

The albergue was attached to a restaurant that was very busy on the Sunday that we were there - I think that it was the only restaurant in town and it seemed that the entire population was there.

What an experience! Good to know French could definitely be helpful and I’m glad you didn’t have to go hungry!

 

[dick bird]

for many years it was the second language taught in schools.

The schools it was being taught in were quite possibly in France. From the sixties on, thousands of Portuguese workers went to France to work in factories or as concierges and took their children with them so they grew up bilingual. But even by the late 80's when I went to teach English there, my students' language competence was impressive - every summer we'd receive busloads of candidates for the Cambridge exams. Spain is catching up, however. It is noticeable now how many younger Spanish people speak very good English compared to a few years ago.

 

[TrvlDad1]

That was my reaction, as well (my bias towards Portugal shows, as often it does.)

One extra plus for Portugal: a lot of older Portuguese speak some French; for many years it was the second language taught in schools. Nowadays, the younger learn English as a second language. So linguistically, you may find it easier than Spain, especially if you consider the longer trip.

Certainly you're likely to have way more time walking alone, if you like that, on the southern half of the Lisbon>Santiago route.

I’m on the CP Central (From Lisbon, now in Tomar) and find the language here harder than on the CF. I speak poor but functional Spanish but the rural Portuguese who don’t speak English (and even some of the young ones with some English) do not understand my Poor Spanish. All that said, communicating on the Camino is a matter of smiles and patience, I think.
More on your subject, my most reflective Camino (I’m limited to 2-3 weeks) was Burgos to Rabanal across the Meseta in March… cold, wet, windy, solitary and beautifully reflective. Call me wierd.

 

[Suzanne H]

Congratulations to you! What an exciting time to start your Camino journey.
I walked most of the route from Lisbon to Porto last year, and I've walked the Frances and other caminos. I agree with those here that a longer journey is more beneficial. Based upon your profile (having not traveled in Europe before, interested in participating in masses, "not particularly physically active, but young" ...)

The pro side of walking from Lisbon is that you'll only meet a handful of people every day and you'll have plenty of time for reflection. There will be churches available to you, but fewer than on the Frances. Probably fewer opportunities for mass. Re. services, everything, frankly, is "fewer". It's a nice walk, but the services are less and distances between can be much longer. Therefore, I'd not recommend it for your 'first' Camino.

I would recommend the Frances. Although it's likely to be busy in the mid-Sept timeframe, you'll have more churches and more masses. Although there will be more people, there will always be time for you to be reflective. And the increased number of services may make your first Camino easier to adapt to.

I will pose another alternative since you mentioned that you do not have time limits: Start in Le Puy. Walk all the way to Santiago. This is a 2+ month endeavor. I had not even contemplated this, but while I was walking from Le Puy to SJPdP, I met several young (20-30 something) women (French, Irish, and Austrian) doing the full walk. The Le Puy route is a joy to walk, and there is much contemplative time, and lovely people and lovely surroundings. Once you reach SJPdP, the experience will change, with more people to interact with. I was amazed they were walking the whole route and shocked that I had not even considered it for myself. But what a wonderful experience!

I find the interaction with other pilgrims is as important as the contemplative spaces.

This last option may find you walking in more rain, however, as you'd be ending in November vs October and the rainy season will be upon you... I don't have experience walking in Spain in November. Perhaps it's something to consider before choosing...

There isn't a bad route. Follow your intuition.
Good luck finding your path!

 

[RJM]

I've walked the Frances multiple times and also the Portugues (central route from Porto all the way to Finisterre). There's no wrong decision in choosing either, but they are different. I definitely found that the Portugues had less that a pilgrim vibe to it, so if that's what you are seeking it is not the Camino route for you, but even without the vibe I really enjoyed it and met some really cool fellow pilgrims. From Porto it's not a long Camino walk and even after reaching Finisterre I still had time so I bused to Pamplona and walked some for the Frances.
I would always recommend that the first time pilgrim walk the Frances. That's just my opinion and I say that because it has what I think the average pilgrim is looking for in terms of pilgrim vibe and infrastructure as well as diversity of landscape and cities, towns etc.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

I’m on the CP Central (From Lisbon, now in Tomar) and find the language here harder than on the CF. I speak poor but functional Spanish but the rural Portuguese who don’t speak English (and even some of the young ones with some English) do not understand my Poor Spanish. All that said, communicating on the Camino is a matter of smiles and patience, I think.

Typically, people do NOT want to speak or respond to Spanish, in rural Portugal. Historical and cultural reasons. That's why I, and others, have suggested you may have better luck with French.

"From Spain neither good winds nor good marriages" is a common proverb among the Portuguese. The proverb refers to royal weddings of several centuries ago, when Spanish and Portuguese royals married for dynastic reasons, to the detriment of the Portuguese, in their view. Very long memories!

Edit/postscript:

The Portuguese themselves acknowledge that theirs is a difficult language, and they don't expect visitors to be able to speak it. And in the small towns, the dialect that is spoken is especially difficult--they cut off the beginnings and ends of words a lot, so that a phrase you recognize on paper may be really difficult to distinguish when spoken. (I know this for sure; I have been studying for a couple of years now, and though I can pick my way through newspapers and websites, talking to my neighbours is still a challenge.) They're pleased if you try to speak Portuguese, but certainly don't expect you to.

Anyway...the small-town Portuguese are extremely gracious hosts, in the sense of being happy to welcome you to their country. And willing to go out of their way to be helpful. The upshot is that no-one will be insulted if you have to resort to one-word requests and mime to get what you need along the way. They will do their best to make your stay in Portugal as good as it can be.

 

[peregrina2000]

I am planning a first-time Camino starting in mid-September 2023

Hi, dtoug, and welcome to the forum! I will throw out a suggestion that falls in the category of “off track, unsolicited advice” but I see you are wrestling with trying to find a good balance between good infrastructure and solitude based on what you know about yourself.

As of right now, I think the Invierno from Ponferrada might be at that sweet spot. The infrastructure is very good, lots of albergues opening up, but no where near the freuency of places on the Francés or Portugués. In terms of numbers, the numbers are steadily growing and forum members this winter have reported running into other pilgrims. As recently as 4 or 5 years ago, I walked the Invierno in summertime and didn’t meet another soul. I know that’s not what you’re looking for, but I think the recent uptick may make it more appealing to you. In mid September, the Primitivo from Oviedo might also be a good call, but it has gotten very popular lately.

If you are at all intrigued by this Invierno idea, and since you aren’t going to start till mid-September, you can sit back and see what the numbers look like on the Invierno this summer and have a better idea about what late summer will look like. Just a thought — but the Invierno is one of my favorites (lots of good forum info, including a forum-written guide). The terrain isn’t overly challenging, the towns and the scenery are wonderful backdrops for reflection, and it is a good two-week (or thereabouts) option.

Not sure how much time you are going to walk, but yet another option would be to start the Francés and if when you get to Ponferrada you think you are ready for a more solitary option, you could always veer left after the albergue when the Camino Francés continues straight ahead and the Invierno mojón takes you over the old bridget and out of town.

If you’re set on the choice as being between the Francés or the Portugués, just ignore all of what I just said.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[TrvlDad1]

Typically, people do NOT want to speak or respond to Spanish, in rural Portugal. Historical and cultural reasons. That's why I, and others, have suggested you may have better luck with French.

"From Spain neither good winds nor good marriages" is a common proverb among the Portuguese. The proverb refers to royal weddings of several centuries ago, when Spanish and Portuguese royals married for dynastic reasons, to the detriment of the Portuguese, in their view. Very long memories!

Indeed, I saw an historical marker today (Almoral Castle?) that referred to its history as repelling the Moors and the Spanish.

 

[Karl Oz]

My first Camino was the final 10 days of the Frances: the supposed 'crowded' sector. I found it a very spiritual experience, not least due to listening to stories of other pilgrims and realising why they were on pilgrimage. You don't have to walk alone to reflect and experience the spirituality - at least, that was my experience.

 

[Roland49]

Hello!

I am planning a first-time Camino starting in mid-September 2023 and wondering from those who have done the Portugues from Porto vs the Frances from SJPDP if you felt there was a significant difference in the experience in terms of time for self-reflection, spirituality and growth between the 10-14d Portugues and the 30-32d Frances. I can find lots of information about both routes online but not much specifically on the inner experience with the two routes.

Welcome to the forum.

Me think that this is foremost depending on you.

If you are a first timer and/or never been to Europe, than I would go for the frances. In average you need 3-5 days to adapt to the life of a pilgrim. The CF has better infrastructure, too.

The days I walked through the Meseta was the time that I had the most insights and really had the time to reflect what's important for me and my future life. Therefore I recommend not to skip this part. The input you'll get through talks with your fellow pilgrims will help you. It's like fast paced counselling

I wonder how you will decide, please share your decission if possible.

Buen Camino!

 

[Trekker One]

Having done both the Francis route and the Porto to Santiago route, might I suggest the Primitivo route starting in Oviedo. It is about 100 kilometers longer than Porto to Santiago but it is by far my favorite route. Far less people, gorgeous countryside. Lots of time for reflection.
It is a route I will walk again one day.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I personally would always advise for the longer walk, and to avoid peak seasons. Adjust your daily walking schedule in a way to avoid peak times and you will find plenty of time for self reflection. Not necessarily every day, but if you walk for almost a month there will be plenty of chances. Plus that varying degrees of solitude and crowdedness might give you some extra inspiration in the end.

When you train your muscles you also go through phases of contraction and relaxation ... the same could work for your mind and soul ;-)

 

[annemaried]

Hi, I am a 60-something from Canada and doing my first Camino next month. I too am looking for self reflection and have chosen to do the CF as my first time. When you asked this question my first thought was take as much time as you can. Once you start work it is so hard to get away for a long long walk. Porto to Santiago is doable in a vacation where the longer walks, not so much. I look forward to hearing about your choice. Buen Camino.

 

[Walktheway]

Hi, I am a 60-something from Canada and doing my first Camino next month. I too am looking for self reflection and have chosen to do the CF as my first time. When you asked this question my first thought was take as much time as you can. Once you start work it is so hard to get away for a long long walk. Porto to Santiago is doable in a vacation where the longer walks, not so much. I look forward to hearing about your choice. Buen Camino.

Yes I agree with the timeframe. Walking the full Camino Frances takes more time than people generally have when they are working and have an annual leave allowance. If you are not pressed for time walk the Camino Frances. I walked some of this with a friend and some 'on my own'. When I was 'on my own' I talked and walked to people and I also spent some days walking without talking to people, you can choose how to walk your Camino.

 

[Lexicos]

Both are good. Both are good for what you want.