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Is the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Rocenvalles open now?
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I'm pretty sure the closure begins 1 November each year.After 1 April, the Pilgrim Office, #39 Rue de la Citadell, provides up to date conditions and forecasts. It is possible to encounter snow through the end of May.
Several years ago, after a spate of very serious rescues of unprepared and under-trained pilgrims on the mountain, local authorities imposed a blanket seasonal closing until 1 April. I do not recall what the starting date for the closure is.
All pilgrims should check in there to receive their first sello, and a current status briefing on the Napoleon Pass and onward...
The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!Thank to all for usefull information. Crossed the route on April 6 in 2014. Will start on March 27 this year, but not in the footsteps of Napoleon.
Rumour has it he never went that way(...) but not in the footsteps of Napoleon.
I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.Rumour has it he never went that way
I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.
It's actually the other way round. Until a new road was built in the Valcarlos valley around 1880, the higher route was the only one where coaches could travel and artillery (canons) could be transported during the time of Napoleon because sections of the old Valcarlos road were too steep for them. The higher road was in fact called Camino de la artillería o de Napoleón.I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.
No it's closed untill 1rst of April and today it's snowing on the topIs the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Rocenvalles open now?
"Steep sided valleys aren't great places to march armies during times of war" should have said Roland.Until a new road was built in the Valcarlos valley around 1880, the higher route was the only one where coaches could travel and artillery (canons) could be transported during the time of Napoleon because sections of the old Valcarlos road were too steep for them.
Thank to all for usefull information. Crossed the route on April 6 in 2014. Will start on March 27 this year, but not in the footsteps of Napoleon.
Totally agree! I love the Valcarlos route for the same reasons you mention!The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
It is gorgeous.The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
No it's closed untill 1rst of April and today it's snowing on the top
Remember well these days,in 2013, on the Camino Norte. Terrible weather for a couple of weeks, rain , wind and low temperature. Read reports from the Pyrenees about snow and wind.April 26, 2005 walked on about 3 feet of packed snow at the pass.
May 28, 2013 (memory???) pass was closed. Several small groups in trouble from ignoring the warnings.
Please follow t2andreo advice to check in SJPdP and FOLLOW THEIR RECOMMENDATION.
If it isclosedthen one cannot stay at Orisson?No it's closed untill 1rst of April and today it's snowing on the top
Orisson is closed too untill 1st of AprilIf it isclosedthen one cannot stay at Orisson?
You can stay at Refuge Orisson during all of their season. Their season lasts from early April until middle to late October.If it is closed then one cannot stay at Orisson?
Thanks for this post @Kathar1na but let me add to the above what you usually do but forgot this time. Not only will you be fined but if the Burgette firefighters are sent to rescue you there will be high costs to pay.To clear up some common misunderstandings or misinterpretations:
There is a section of the Route Napoleon where it is against Spanish law to walk during all of the months of November, December, January, February, and March. There are heavy fines in place in relation to this law. It's the same every year. There is no way around it. From 1 November until 31 March you need to walk via Valcarlos.
The napolean route officially opens 1 April BUT is weather dependent - so it may remain closed until it is safeIs the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Rocenvalles open now?
@domigee, are you sure you posted this into the appropriate thread? In this thread, I just see people who talk calmly about what they know and what they experienced in the way of weather in late April and May - not exactly winter months ...Wihat is it people don’t understand??? IT IS NOT SAFE to walk in the Winter.
[...]
Really annoys me. So unnecessary.
Rant over.
Deep breath
But didn't you suggest that there is some kind of authority in your previous post??As we are approaching the end of March and the start of the "pilgrim season" that lasts from April to October, I felt it is important to point out that the Route Napoleon is not a trail in a National Park. There are no National Park authorities, no Camino authorities, no Pyrenees authorities that declare the trail open or closed on a specific day during April to October when weather or trail conditions may be bad or dangerous. Some forum messages here and there suggest this but it is not so.
There is a section of the Route Napoleon where it is against Spanish law to walk during all of the months of November, December, January, February, and March. There are heavy fines in place in relation to this law. It's the same every year. There is no way around it. From 1 November until 31 March you need to walk via Valcarlos.
Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.Orisson is closed too untill 1st of April
However, pronunciation varies depending on country, sadly.The Napoleonic war 1808/1814 in Iberia which is known as the Peninsular War had an impact on the Camino Frances near Roncesvalles and Pamplona.
Although Napoleon Bonaparte himself never was on this route the French troops were successful at the Battle of Roncesvalles 25 July 1813 against the British. Read more here of this event in the Peninsular war and check out the map of the battle.
Roncesvalles, Uppper Canada or Ontario, was named after the battle of Roncesvalles.
Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the battle, would after emigrating to Upper Canada mid-century name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighborhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.
My guess is that in all probability, law of averages wise, the Napoleon route will be open on 14 April. In the event it is not you will either have to take the Valcarlos route, or just not walk that day and wait for better weather.Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
As others have said, no. The split is at the bottom of the hill as you're leaving SJPP.is Orisson on the way to the alternate route
Amen. And (also as others have said), the Valcarlos is actually the older route. It's not the the 'alternate route' except in modern Hollywood-driven mythology - nor is it a consolation prize for those who can't walk the 'real' way, but a glorious walk in its own right.I think many pilgrims are way too hung up on the Napoleon route.
Orisson is 7kms into the route that may be closed. If so, you'll have to take the Valcarlos route, which is lovely in its own way. You can break up the walk to Roncesvalles by stopping in Valcarlos on that route. If the Napoleon route is open, your night in Orisson is on that route. Just check with the pilgrim office in SJPDP.Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
nor is it a consolation prize for those who can't walk the 'real' way, but a glorious walk in its own right.
ORISSON is at 10 km from SJPP on Napoleon Route but 14 April Orisson will be open. When you arrive you have to go to the pilgrims office the volunteers will give you all advices you needYes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
The Pilgrim's Office in SJPdP has a paper handout map of "Les ports de Cize" showing the two routes from SJPdP to Roncevalles. Here is an online copy:Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
Rick, you are often very helpful and provide extra information in your replies to questions people ask.The Pilgrim's Office in SJPdP has a paper handout map of "Les ports de Cize" showing the two routes from SJPdP to Roncevalles. Here is an online copy:
Thank you Chris. And the rest of the time I can be snarky without the risk of being physically beat up.Rick, you are often very helpful and provide extra information in your replies to questions people ask.
Oh, I've beat you up plenty, but you are winning me over on other threads!Thank you Chris. And the rest of the time I can be snarky without the risk of being physically beat up.
This map is obsolete, we have one more recentThe Pilgrim's Office in SJPdP has a paper handout map of "Les ports de Cize" showing the two routes from SJPdP to Roncevalles. Here is an online copy:
Oh please put a copy out on the web. It is so handy to use in responding to queries like Sheree's.This map is obsolete, we have one more recent
Both routes have a stretch of 3 km with an average slope of 15%. The Napoleon has it earlier, in the first part before Orisson, and the Valcarlos route has it in the second part.Valcarlos to Roncesvalles is no easy walk, especially the last 5k, which is solidly and relentlessly uphill
That depends on which 'sense' we are talking about. Perhaps in a 'normal' (if you will) sense - sure.I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.
Well I thought that if one were moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment whilst under non-combat conditions, or in a no threat area it would make sense to take the low road, but these troops and equipment was doing so under combat. So it makes total sense to take the high road/high ground. I did not realize that at first until I read the historical record of the campaign in that area that was attached to another post on here.That depends on which 'sense' we are talking about. Perhaps in a 'normal' (if you will) sense - sure.
However, 'military' sense is quite different and in so many ways it plays off the 'normal' sense which says - NAH...SURELY they won't DO this, because..... and that is how we surprise our enemies...doing exactly the opposite of what is 'normal'
When the main question has been answered [Question: Is the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Roncesvalles open now? - Answer: No.], we are allowed some leeway by the PTB.History is great, but don't we need two SEPARATE threads here???
The snow is still there but the French, British, Spanish and Portuguese forces are gone now.Is the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Rocenvalles open now?
And he is obviously not first to do so. Think of Hannibal crossing the Alps in218 AD and Suvorov doing the same in 1799. Napoleon himself will cross the Alps in 1800 so technically crossing the Pyrenees 13 years later is a 'piece of cake' (I know i am pushing it here )Well I thought that if one were moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment whilst under non-combat conditions, or in a no threat area it would make sense to take the low road, but these troops and equipment was doing so under combat. So it makes total sense to take the high road/high ground. I did not realize that at first until I read the historical record of the campaign in that area that was attached to another post on here.
Bernard Cornwall's stories of soldier Sharpe traipsing about, serving in Wellington's army in various parts of Spain and Portugal are great fun, if you like that kind of thing.
I used to work at the Toronto Public Library branch on Roncesvalles Avenue. It was a Carnegie library, built with a grant from the Carnegie Corporation.Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the battle, would after emigrating to Upper Canada mid-century name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighborhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.
And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly.I used to work at the Toronto Public Library branch on Roncesvalles Avenue. It was a Carnegie library, built with a grant from the Carnegie Corporation.
True. I don't believe I ever heard anyone pronounce it "Ronthesvayes" as it should be. But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either.And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly.
For those not familiar with T.O> -- locals call it "Ronces-Vales" or, sometimes "Ronces valley". :/
Seulement pour m'amuser et ennuyer les autres la, je préfère qualifier le quartier de "Roncevaux", comme une propre Canadienne bilingue.
Nor "Regina"...True. I don't believe I ever heard anyone pronounce it "Ronthesvayes" as it should be. But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either.
I think that lots of people don't want to pronounce it property because of what it rhymes with.Nor "Regina"...
Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.'But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either.
But in Latin, it does not rhyme with what you are thinking of.I think that lots of people don't want to pronounce it property because of what it rhymes with.
Can't do it. I can't stand to be thought of as a person who fails to enunciate. I honeslty prefer to be thought an elitist snob. I was taught that well enunciated speech could be given away but never stolen from me. I make a point of not mangling my students' names as well... and often get chosen as the orator for convocation as a result. My students say my speech is intimidating, especially for a woman... but also seek to learn how to do what I do.Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.'
What's proper and correct is cotextual. So when in Rome, say Roncesvalles as the Romans do. You will be more easily undertood that way.
How do you think English became English?Where I live now I am observing a vowel shift
Well aware of the perpetual shift, and of the “great vowel shift”… But I refuse to concede my own speech habits. There remain stratifications in speech and I won’t tumble down the route of ”up-talk” and abbreviated endings, that sound both nasal and vapid to my ear. I admit to being in the minority in my views. It does not bother me to be so.How do you think English became English?
Or any other language for that matter.
Any language is a fluid thing, subject to fashion, trends, and change. Unstoppable. So good luck, Faye. It's a losing battle in a lost war.
(What bugs me is how the ends of sentences are all becoming questions even if they're not. But change happens, and we may as well get over ourselves.)
I would give a fulsome response to this, about how we have to accept the changing nature of language, but accepting the changing semantics of the word "fulsome" hurts too much.How do you think English became English?
Or any other language for that matter.
Any language is a fluid thing, subject to fashion, trends, and change. Unstoppable. So good luck, Faye. It's a losing battle in a lost war.
(What bugs me is how the ends of sentences are all becoming questions even if they're not. But change happens, and we may as well get over ourselves.)
Of course not. Your speech us what it is.Well aware of the perpetual shift, and of the “great vowel shift”… But I refuse to concede my own speech habits
There's a county in Northern California called Del Norte county, but the locals insist on leaving the E off the end and say Del Nort. Fortunately, I've never had occasion to visit there.Pragmatism and respect for local customs means it's better to use the pronunciation people of that place use, even if it grates on our ear, for whatever subjective reason.
Awww, your mum must have some (broad) Aussie in her!!Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.'
Agree walked it in 2018 and having walked both enjoyed it more.The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
in 2018 after reaching Ronc. a lady walked in bragging how she had come over the Napoleon route and being also an Australian I was so not happy and asked why. I gave her an ear full how stupid and not caring about those that had to go out and rescue fools like her. That afternoon it started to snow heavily and a few days later 5 had to be rescued........They are walkers/hikers but noway are they pilgrims as they only think about themselves.Wihat is it people don’t understand??? IT IS NOT SAFE to walk in the Winter.
No-one ever thought of closing the road until some idiot walkers who didn’t know ( and didn’t listen) still thought it was ok to walk, whatever the locals said. DOH.
Hence lots of expensive and risky rescue operations.
Really annoys me. So unnecessary.
Rant over.
Deep breath
There is also the joy of the path less travelled. It's never going to be the ant trail the Napoleon route is, so if you want peace and quiet, this is the way for you.Agree walked it in 2018 and having walked both enjoyed it more.
Not a speck. Ontario born and bred, 4 or 5 generations back. But life is short. Why say 'To-ron-to' when you can say 'T'rona'?Awww, your mum must have some (broad) Aussie in her!!
So when in Rome, say Roncesvalles as the Romans do. You will be more easily undertood that way.
Can't do it. I can't stand to be thought of as a person who fails to enunciate. I honeslty prefer to be thought an elitist snob.
Nor "Regina"...
Do you pronounce "Regina" (referring to the city) like the hoi polloi in Canada, or do you say it in correct Latin?But in Latin, it does not rhyme with what you are thinking of.
Since the title of this thread has "Napoleon" in it, a relevant question: Roncesvalles and Waterloo are both place names in Canada; the latter is also known for its university.And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly.
For those not familiar with T.O> -- locals call it "Ronces-Vales" or, sometimes "Ronces valley". :/
Seulement pour m'amuser et ennuyer les autres la, je préfère qualifier le quartier de "Roncevaux", comme une propre Canadienne bilingue.
I suppose as we go forward the utopian view might be that in the end the world will have one shared tongue… but the downside will surely be that origins and history and specificity are evacuated. What is *the point* of naming a child “Genevieve” only to call her “Jenny-veeve” (and that kid hates the sound of her name so much that she just uses “Jen”)? That one sticks out because I did roll-call in one my first-ever classes and Genevieve had never heard her name pronounced in French. She said she would use her full name if people would say it as I had.Of course not. Your speech us what it is.
And so is everyone else's, as language moves on.
What is correct is subjective.
Speaking in line with local usage of place names is a matter of a pragmatism and respect for local customs. It's better to use the pronunciation people of a particular place use, even if it grates on our ear, for whatever subjective reason.
I am constantly raising these points exactly as you note them, but not in the service of saying that the locals who dominate now should be allowed to trash a language. Language and power and domination, colonialism… we stray into politics I fear. But I do think that “Weber” street (Waterloo) should be pronounced as we do for the socio-political theorist, Max Weber, and not as “Weeburr” nor, even worse: Webber”.Since the title of this thread has "Napoleon" in it, a relevant question: Roncesvalles and Waterloo are both place names in Canada; the latter is also known for its university.
When speaking English in Canada, if the proper pronunciation of Roncesvalles must be the one used by Spanish-speaking Spaniards, is the proper pronunciation of Waterloo the one used by French-speaking Belgians? Like watɛʁlo or optionally like ˈʋaːtərloː but certainly not like wɔːtə(r)ˈluː. (Click on links to listen).
- Roncesvalles is named after a location in Spain where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1813.
- Waterloo is named after a location in Belgium where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1815.
If not, why, in Canada, would one place name of a Canadian geographical location have to be treated as an exonym and the other as an endonym? I'm really curious to understand this reasoning.
The Euskadi Wikipedia page for Luzaide says (Google translation):we do not generally refer to the “Luzaide” route… but to be honest, I want to know what “Luzaide” means… what it refers to…
The Basque name, Luzaide , means "long way", luza ("long") and ide ( way = "way"). According to Basque philologist Jean-Baptiste Orpustan , the place refers to the long journey that shepherds from Lower Navarre had to make with their flocks when crossing the valley, before establishing a stable population center in the valley.
Oh! I love knowing the reference to local working life! Thank you!The Euskadi Wikipedia page for Luzaide says (Google translation):
We're not talking about absolute reality here, Faye, just pronunciation. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Refer to local places with local pronunciation or names and we'll be understood - and appreciated.if all things are true as defined only by the local, we could be in real trouble
In the Pais Vasco, people like it if you ask about the Basque place name - and use it. Fortunately, there is no need to learn Basque (or Catalan, Galician, whatever) to call a place by its local name.And I despair because I am much too old to learn a new language, Basque, that has no point of reference for entry for me
Well, I guess I think that there is such a thing as ignorant disregard for the history....We're not talking about absolute reality here, Faye, just pronunciation. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Refer to local places with local pronunciation or names and we'll be understood - and appreciated.
I aim to try to ask such things on this trip. On my first go in the region I was *so shy* that I could not manage even to be seen in the crowded bars, and I would have starved had 2 older men not taken my money and delivered back to me whatever they came away with from the crowded bars. Fortunately, I am not picky.In the Pais Vasco, people like it if you ask about the Basque place name - and use it. Fortunately, there is no need to learn Basque (or Catalan, Galician, whatever) to call a place by its local name.
What does "ignorant disregard for the history" have to do with pronouncing a place name as locals do? I'm simply suggesting we be pragmatic. And courteous.Well, I guess I think that there is such a thing as ignorant disregard for the history....
100% of the people do not follow 100% of the rules 100%
You do realize that rules are arbitrary human inventions? It's a losing battle, so I genuinely feel for you. It sounds like suffering.see it as all of a piece. And I have *zero chill* about it.
The joy of being a transient far from home is that no-one will see us again.in real life I am extremely extremely introverted and loath the idea that I might disturb a busy bar-keeper with my request -- even for that pinxto.
I abhor chaos. Pronouncing a name in a grossly distorted manner just because the locals have decide to do so is a capitulation to majority-rule even if it is a stupid majority. "T'rana" is not anything close to the Huron word "Tkoronto", 4 syllables, a quasi-digraph, and the emphasis on the final long "O". "T'rana" communicates, "I don't care whose land I am on".... "Ronces-vales" (or whatever weird variant) communicates an ignorance about the history of the glorification of old-world battles and land-grabs... is proabably part-and-parcel of the disregard of Canada for all things to do with Spain (because the "founding nations" of England and France made it so).What does "ignorant disregard for the history" have to do with pronouncing a place name as locals do? I'm simply suggesting we be pragmatic. And courteous.
You do realize that rules are arbitrary human inventions? It's a losing battle, so I genuinely feel for you. It sounds like suffering.
The joy of being a transient far from home is that no-one will see us again.
I'm with you there! So, it may be time to close this thread.I abhor chaos.