New Name Format on Compostelas

[Steve Taylor]

I completed the Camino Portugués from Porto today and noticed that my name on the certificate was included as it is usually written, rather than in Latin, as was the case for my previous three compostelas.
Is this the new format, or was it because that was how I spelled my name in the online form?
As I’ve had precious compstelas, I’m not too bothered, but I did kind of like seeing the Latin version of my name on the certificate.

 

[David Tallan]

That's strange. This is the first report of that change. Are you sure you weren't accidentally looking at your distance certificate? I think that is unlikely as you've got three previous Compostelas and can be presumed to know the difference. But it also seems unlikely that this change would happen without a whole bunch of people remarking on it.

 

[Steve Taylor]

 

[Steve Taylor]

As you can see, my name is the same on the Compostela and distance certificate. I’ve got previous Compostelas because I’ve walked the Camino Frances and Ingles.

 

[Steve Taylor]

Also, it doesn’t look like it’s handwritten nowadays. The previous May have been printed, but they looked handwritten.

 

[grayland]

It will be interesting to hear from others that have received Compostelas in the last few days.

I have worked in the Pilgrim office and issued Compostlas. There was no way to do anything but hand write the names and always in Latin (as best we could )

 

[SabsP]

Mine last week definitely came out of a printer while I stood at the desk. Nothing handwritten by the person at the desk. I guess they have a specific IT tool for this.
We registered our code only three hours before arriving that day so I cannot imagine someone writing all those 1500 ( average number that moment of the day ) names.
Like I told in another thread : I have had longer conversations with the cashier of my local supermarket.

 

[Kathar1na]

The Compostelas get printed since at least April/May 2023, perhaps even earlier. They use a cursive font for pilgrim name and date etc. that resembles handwriting.

As to the Latinisation of given names with a latinised track record (for example known latinised given name in Catholic parish registers from the 16th until the 19th century) - that appears to be a bit haphazard.

@Steve Taylor, can you say for certain that nobody had their given name latinised on the day you got your Compostela and since then?

 

[good_old_shoes]

The Compostelas get printed since at least April/May 2023

I'm not sure why that makes me sad, but it does.

 

[Steve Taylor]

That's strange. This is the first report of that change. Are you sure you weren't accidentally looking at your distance certificate? I think that is unlikely as you've got three previous Compostelas and can be presumed to know the difference. But it also seems unlikely that this change would happen without a whole bunch of people remarking on it.

I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.

The Compostelas get printed since at least April/May 2023, perhaps even earlier. They use a cursive font for pilgrim name and date etc. that resembles handwriting.

As to the Latinisation of given names with a latinised track record (for example known latinised given name in Catholic parish registers from the 16th until the 19th century) - that appears to be a bit haphazard.

@Steve Taylor, can you say for certain that nobody had their given name latinised on the day you got your Compostela and since then?

no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.

 

[Sidknee]

I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.

no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.

Hi Steve, did you ask for a Compostela for your Camino where the purpose was religious?

My experience in the last week was:
(A) Distance (both) - my name as I input it
(B) Compostela for religious purposes - Latinised name (at least the first name)
(C) Compostela for non-religious reasons - my name as I input it

Just wondering what type of certificate you requested?

 

[Steve Taylor]

I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.

no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.

Hi Steve, did you ask for a Compostela for your Camino where the purpose was religious?

My experience in the last week was:
(A) Distance (both) - my name as I input it
(B) Compostela for religious purposes - Latinised name (at least the first name)
(C) Compostela for non-religious reasons - my name as I input it

Just wondering what type of certificate you requested?

I asked for a religious Compostela and got the document I posted earlier.

 

[SioCamino]

I got a Compostela last week and my name was in latin as usual. I would guess that this was an error. If you have the time and are so inclined you could go back - there will be some staff and or volunteers who speak English and Spanish. Or keep this one as the v special one off that it is?

 

[Kathar1na]

no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her

@Steve Taylor, this is rather unfortunate.

I noticed that there are two given names on your Compostela. I wonder whether the algorithm of the software that looks for a Latin version of a given name does not deal well with such a situation and that is why it did not assign Latin names to each of your given names. Perhaps the volunteer did not know how to redress this.

I would follow @SioCamino's advice if feasible.

 

[Kathar1na]

Best of luck, @Steve Taylor, in case you do go back and let us know how it went. Not every volunteer may know all the ins and outs of the current computer program, ask to be helped by more experienced staff if necessary.

 

[andonius]

I got my last compostela in July. For the first time, it was fully printed (including the name) and the name was in the latinised form. My name is very common in Spain,(Antonio, latinised Antonius). Maybe the problem is that the data base of names they're using does not contain still all latinised forms of non common Spanish names. But that's just a guess.

 

[dugavski]

My name is Slavic and not latinised on the Compostela and distance certificate, although it is easy to translate... Case from May this year.

 

[JohnLloyd]

When I got my first Compostela in 2018, I remember rehearsing in my mind what I would say at the office, giving my reason for walking the Camino.

That little ritual meant the world to me, as did the unexpected treat of seeing my name in Latin, and beautifully written by hand.

Then on my second Camino, in 2019, I felt the process had been speeded up, and there was less "chit-chat" as we were all fed in and out of the office quite quickly.

When it came to my third Camino in 2022, I was somewhat dismayed to find QR codes and timeslots ruling the roost, as if I was checking in to catch a flight or see a film.

Volume and capacity issues have inevitably reduced the romance and spiritual uplift of the moment of climax on the Camino.

That moment takes place on Praza do Obradoiro now.

Another reason I am grateful that I walked when I did.

​

 

[Pafayac]

It will be interesting to hear from others that have received Compostelas in the last few days.

I got one on 2023/8/25:
- My name is printed, given name in latin form
- I asked for a Vicarie pro, mention has been hand-written
- On the distance certificate, my name is printed in french form

HTH

 

[Bradypus]

When I got my first Compostela in 2018, I remember rehearsing in my mind what I would say at the office, giving my reason for walking the Camino.

At the end of my first Camino I was gently but thoroughly grilled for about 20 minutes by one of the cathedral priests about my religious motivation and understanding of pilgrimage. As a Protestant theology student I was clearly an exotic specimen at the time. I found it a very generous and helpful debriefing exercise. Not a realistic idea with the numbers these days and probably not acceptable to many nowadays anyway. A pity.

 

[JohnLloyd]

At the end of my first Camino I was gently but thoroughly grilled for about 20 minutes by one of the cathedral priests about my religious motivation and understanding of pilgrimage. As a Protestant theology student I was clearly an exotic specimen at the time. I found it a very generous and helpful debriefing exercise. Not a realistic idea with the numbers these days and probably not acceptable to many nowadays anyway. A pity.

That's it, isn't it? The more people that walk, the less opportunity there might be for that sweet interrogation.

 

[Bradypus]

That's it, isn't it? The more people that walk, the less opportunity there might be for that sweet interrogation.

Impossible with today's numbers. There were more Compostelas issued on a single day last year than in the entire year of my first Camino. It is quite remarkable that the new system can manage the daily traffic at this time of year.

 

[JabbaPapa]

They were already printing the names last year, though mine was hand-written as my Windows Phone does not support pre-registration.

And that should of course have been Stephanum Robertum Taylor ...

 

[Flog]

I noticed that there are two given names on your Compostela. I wonder whether the algorithm of the software that looks for a Latin version of a given name does not deal well with such a situation and that is why it did not assign Latin names to each of your given names. Perhaps the volunteer did not know how to redress this.

This is categorically correct. The translation software as it's currently configured, can't cope with two given names and will print them just as they appear on the online form by default. The simple workaround (currently) is to look them up in Latin as before, and manually type them into the compostela. This is what's normally done.

 

[Flog]

They were already printing the names last year, though mine was hand-written as my Windows Phone does not support pre-registration.

This is categorically incorrect. Your details were written in manually the same as everyone else's last year, because printers only came into use around March 2023.

 

[JabbaPapa]

This is categorically incorrect.

What is "categorically incorrect" ? I talked in Santiago last year with pilgrims who had the names on their Compostelas computer printed.

 

[t2andreo]

In 2021, the Pilgrim Office started collecting all the pilgrim-specific information online, instead of using paper forms on clipboards and pens, shared by many people, and which could cause the spread of COVID. By 2023, they rolled out the planned use of this advance input information to laser print Compostelas and Distancias, using a beautiful calligraphic font.

The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes, pre laser printing, and now about one minute per pilgrim with pre-printed Compostelas and Distancias. Most of this time is social pleasantries to welcome and congratulate the pilgrim.

I confirmed this in 2022 when I worked as a volunteer and ran ad hoc timings on random pilgrim processing on different days, and times of days, at different staff positions. The two minutes was virtually all taken up by searching for the Latin name, then writing the information on the pre-printed Compostela forms.

For now, the "Vicare Pro" add-on is being done by manual annotation at the counter. However, it is being contemplated as an additional data input element for the advance data collection. Click on the question mark to learn about it, then tick a box to choose yes or no, then enter the exact name of the person you are dedicating the Compostela to a drop down box. The result is that the laser printer will add the annotation in a perfect calligraphic font, as the rest of the Compostela. Stay tuned on this one. Changes move differently in Spain. But, eventually, everything works out.

Regarding the use and printing of actual given names, versus Latin equivalents, one must remember that Latin is a dead language. Many names used now, do not have an original Latin root. I specifically recall an American pilgrim named "Todd" who was upset that we could not discern an original Latin root name. It turns out, by questioning that he was christened as "Todd." It was never intended to be a nickname for a traditional name like Thaddeus or Theodore - for which Latin equivalents do exist.

So, if you happen to have a given name for which no Latin equivalent exists, don't blame the system. Consider entering a traditional version of the usual spelling of your name to increase the chance of a database match. For example: "Christie" might be better submitted as "Christine" - resulting in a Latin "Cristina." The database table lookups are literal. They do NOT employ AI concepts and cannot look at the Latin tables flexibly.

Some people have complained about how fast the new system works and how there are no queues at many times of the day. Let me tell you that this is preferable to two-to-three hour waits outside in all weather. Once the pilgrim arrival volumes regularly exceed about 1,500 daily, no amount of human staff could handle the volume. Introducing automated assistance was crucial to the Pilgrim Office and Compostela process keeping its head above water - so to speak.

This was especially true during the extended Holy Year. Presently, the volumes are NOT declining steeply from Holy Year levels, as would usually be expected.

Then, in 2027, we have yet another Holy Year. coming So all the work being done during this interregnum, to develop and improve the automated assist system, is vital to ensure that future pilgrims can obtain their certificates in a timely manner.

I have seen and been part of the process at all levels - since 2013, arriving as a pilgrim, and working as a volunteer. I have even made some of the process improvement recommendations that are referenced here. Trust me when I tell you that this is the only way to sustain future growth.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[JohnLloyd]

Thanks for that thoroughly detailed explanation, Tom! A categorical response, perhaps...

John / Ioannem

 

[Kathar1na]

"Vicare Pro"

Typo. It is "vicarie pro". r-i-e.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes, pre laser printing, and now about one minute per pilgrim with pre-printed Compostelas and Distancias. Most of this time is social pleasantries to welcome and congratulate the pilgrim.

Well personally last year, given that I made sure to go in at a very non-busy point in the day, despite my Compostela needing to be done "the old-fashioned way" by hand after the traditional interview -- given that my Christian name is an obvious Classical Latin one, and surnames are apart from odd exception invariable, and that it was blatantly obvious I had fulfilled the conditions, my stop at the counter was about the average for that point in the day, bit more than those couple of minutes as there was no queue, and the volunteers could consequently take a bit more time with each pilgrim.

Some who had entered before me were still at the desk as I left.

I also did not wish to horrify the poor young woman with a request for a distance certificate ...

Regarding the use and printing of actual given names, versus Latin equivalents, one must remember that Latin is a dead language.

Moribund, but not quite dead -- as this very discussion thread attests to !!

So, if you happen to have a given name for which no Latin equivalent exists, don't blame the system. Consider entering a traditional version of the usual spelling of your name to increase the chance of a database match. For example: "Christie" might be better submitted as "Christine" - resulting in a Latin "Cristina."

Being pedantic I know, but it's a Mediaeval name, so probably would be better as Christinam on a Compostela. It's originally a Greek Χριστίνα, and Greek Χριστ- > Mediaeval Latin Christ-.

 

[Flog]

In 2021, the Pilgrim Office started collecting all the pilgrim-specific information online, instead of using paper forms on clipboards and pens, shared by many people, and which could cause the spread of COVID.

This long planned, streamlined registration system wasn't introduced to mitigate against covid spread, nor was it introduced as a result of any volunteer claiming to have influence over policy and decision making at any level. I was reliably informed it was planned and implemented to cope with the anticipated flood of pilgrims for the 2021 holy year and beyond, plain and simple.

But it was a perfect storm, certainly. And a coincidence, yes that too.

 

[dbier]

Off topic a bit, but related:

I and my husband waited in very long and (at the time) very confusing lines on July 24th, 2021, where they stopped letting pilgrims in at all to the Pilgrim's Office some 7 people after me and my husband at about 12:30 in the afternoon (the guard was counting in Spanish, we were veinte dos and veinte tres), where our numbers (issued at the second desk, all the way around the complex to the back basement) were in the 1400s, and the desks were then servicing the early 700s. We were allowed to leave, and went and got lunch at Don Quixote before returning, 20 minutes before our numbers were called.

BL: The current process is, IMHO, completely necessary, even if In Vicarie Pro may need some work. I'll tell you whether that's true round about 28 September, God willing.

My read on the original post is that the volunteer keyed in the name wrong on Steve's Compostela (should have probably been Stephanus, like my husband). Whether the volunteer didn't have access to or didn't know how to use the Latinized lookup tables is a subject for the Pilgrim's Office to resolve.

 

[trecile]

The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes

I'm sure that lots of paper has been saved as a result too.

 

[Kathar1na]

kind of like seeing the Latin version of my name on the certificate.

@Steve Taylor, did you go back and had it changed?

 

[Damien Reynolds]

In 2021, the Pilgrim Office started collecting all the pilgrim-specific information online, instead of using paper forms on clipboards and pens, shared by many people, and which could cause the spread of COVID. By 2023, they rolled out the planned use of this advance input information to laser print Compostelas and Distancias, using a beautiful calligraphic font.

The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes, pre laser printing, and now about one minute per pilgrim with pre-printed Compostelas and Distancias. Most of this time is social pleasantries to welcome and congratulate the pilgrim.

I confirmed this in 2022 when I worked as a volunteer and ran ad hoc timings on random pilgrim processing on different days, and times of days, at different staff positions. The two minutes was virtually all taken up by searching for the Latin name, then writing the information on the pre-printed Compostela forms.

For now, the "Vicare Pro" add-on is being done by manual annotation at the counter. However, it is being contemplated as an additional data input element for the advance data collection. Click on the question mark to learn about it, then tick a box to choose yes or no, then enter the exact name of the person you are dedicating the Compostela to a drop down box. The result is that the laser printer will add the annotation in a perfect calligraphic font, as the rest of the Compostela. Stay tuned on this one. Changes move differently in Spain. But, eventually, everything works out.

Regarding the use and printing of actual given names, versus Latin equivalents, one must remember that Latin is a dead language. Many names used now, do not have an original Latin root. I specifically recall an American pilgrim named "Todd" who was upset that we could not discern an original Latin root name. It turns out, by questioning that he was christened as "Todd." It was never intended to be a nickname for a traditional name like Thaddeus or Theodore - for which Latin equivalents do exist.

So, if you happen to have a given name for which no Latin equivalent exists, don't blame the system. Consider entering a traditional version of the usual spelling of your name to increase the chance of a database match. For example: "Christie" might be better submitted as "Christine" - resulting in a Latin "Cristina." The database table lookups at literal. They do NOT employ AI concepts and cannot look at the Latin tables flexibly.

Some people have complained about how fast the new system works and how there are no queues at many times of the day. Let me tell you that this is preferable to two-to-three hour waits outside in all weather. Once the pilgrim arrival volumes regularly exceed about 1,500 daily, no amount of human staff could handle the volume. Introducing automated assistance was crucial to the Pilgrim Office and Compostela process keeping its head above water - so to speak.

This was especially true during the extended Holy Year. Presently, the volumes are NOT declining steeply from Holy Year levels, as would usually be expected.

Then, in 2027, we have yet another Holy Year. coming So all the work being done during this interregnum, to develop and improve the automated assist system is vital to ensure that future pilgrims can obtain their certificates in a timely manner.

I have seen and been part of the process at all levels - since 2013, arriving as a pilgrim, and working as a volunteer. I have even made some of the process improvement recommendations that are referenced here. Trust me when I tell you that this is the only way to sustain future growth.

Hope this helps.

Tom

I love it. Gracias. Damianus

 

[Kathar1na]

I had often wondered about the databases that are used by the Pilgrim Office and why they latinise given names and not surnames like in the case of the OP where this would be easy to do.

We know of course names from Roman times: Gaius Iulius Cesar and Marcus Iunius Brutus would account for the latinisation of modern English names such as Julian, Jules, Mark and Marc.

There are the saints and their widely known names in Latin: Iacobus for English James, Jake, Jim, or Stephanus for Stephen, Steve, or Ioannis for John and Jack.

We know of thousands and thousands of medieval contracts, donations, biographies and scientific books written in Latin and where the parties' names or authors' names are latinised. For example, Robertus Anglicus or Robert the Englishman was an English astronomer of the thirteenth century and he authored books under his Latinised name. Or, when he published in Latin and not in German where he helped to create and shape standard German, a certain Martinus Lutherus who is more commonly known to us as Martin Luther.

What I did not know until recently is the fact that until late into the years 1800s, entries into Roman Catholic parish registers were made in Latin and not in English, in particular in Ireland of course: baptisms, marriages, deaths. In these parish registers, placenames and surnames were not transposed into Latin but first names were. The modern Compostelas are issued along the same principle.

Enter Latin names in Irish baptism records into Google to find examples, often with long lists of English or Irish names and their Latin equivalent.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I had often wondered about the databases that are used by the Pilgrim Office and why they latinise given names and not surnames like in the case of the OP where this would be easy to do.

Surnames are only very exceptionally of Latin/Greek origin, and so purviewed of regular and variable form in the Mediaeval Latin Accusative.

99% of surnames are invariable in Latin.

An Anglicised form of a name of Anglo-French origin certainly should be invariable in nearly every case.

 

[t2andreo]

This long planned, streamlined registration system wasn't introduced to mitigate against covid spread, nor was it introduced as a result of any volunteer claiming to have influence over policy and decision making at any level. I was reliably informed it was planned and implemented to cope with the anticipated flood of pilgrims for the 2021 holy year and beyond, plain and simple.

But it was a perfect storm, certainly. And a coincidence, yes that too.

The process changes occurred at about the same time the COVID pandemic hit hard at the end of 2019 into 2020. The former, fully manual, and paper-based system used clipboards, forms and pens - all of which were used my many people daily. Early on, these items were identified as a disease vector for the spread of COVID.

Staff knew that they were working on the automated data collection scheme. This just gave it a new urgency. The timing may or may not be coincidental. But, that is the way it happened. I concur that all elements taken together certainly do make a perfect storm of sorts. I do not care who suggested what. All I care about is that it happened.

I never claimed to influence process changes. As a friend and frequent, repeat volunteer, I had a lot of knowledge about the entire process. In my capacity as a volunteer, I had NO authority or decision making capability, whatsoever. But, I did have many discussions with staff over various alternatives, and over several years.

In any event, when the actual formal ideas surfaced, they all came from staff - not volunteers - at least to the best of my knowledge. So, I may have planted the seeds of thoughts. But, claiming influence is a far different thing.

I hope this clarifies matters,

Tom

 

[Flog]

I hope this clarifies matters,

It does of course, Tom.. you're too modest.

 

[Pafayac]

in the Mediaeval Latin Accusative.

Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.

 

[Bradypus]

Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.

On the Compostelas I have received my first name has always been given in the accusative form - Rolandum - rather than the nominative Rolandus. Though 45 years after leaving school without practising the language my Latin grammar is now so poor that I cannot understand from the text why that should be!

 

[SabsP]

On the Compostelas I have received my first name has always been given in the accusative form - Rolandum - rather than the nominative Rolandus. Though 45 years after leaving school without practising the language my Latin grammar is now so poor that I cannot understand from the text why that should be!

My recent one is certainly in the accusative.

 

[Pafayac]

I did not pay attention but in fact mine too (Vincentium). Probably the sentence requires it, my latin rememberings are vanishing…

 

[Kathar1na]

Probably the sentence requires it, my latin rememberings are vanishing…

Not only yours are vanishing or have vanished. But luckily we have the web and this forum .... We've had endless discussions about this in the past so before we engage in yet another one:

It is the notum facit that does it. It is not followed by a quod (that) as in English and other European languages, it is followed by the given name in Latin accusative form and then an infinitive (visitasse). One of hundreds of websites with the explanation: Accusative with infinitive / Subordinate clause conjunctions

What ought to be more widely known: If your latinised given name on your Compostela ends in -um (male name) or -am (female name), then you should not use this name as your "name in Latin". Drop the -um and replace it by an -us if your name is a boy's name and drop the -m if your name is a girl's name. That's your name in Latin.

If the Latinised given name on your Compostela has an ending other than -um or -am then it's a little more complicated. You may have to look up a Latin declensions table on the internet.

 

[Kathar1na]

Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:

1. Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
2. Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form

In case 2:

• Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
• Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.

Note: If you entered two given names in your online registration form, your two given names will always appear exactly as you entered them. This is a software bug that has been known for a few months now, since the time when they started to print Compostelas instead of completing them by hand. It is the reason for this thread.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.

The pilgrim's name is the noun part of an Accusative Absolute ; which is why, in the rare case of a surname that were variable in Latin, it too should be in the Accusative.

 

[David Tallan]

Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:

1. Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
2. Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form

In case 2:

• Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
  
  
• Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.
  
  
• If you entered two given names in your online registration form, your two given names will appear exactly as you entered them.
  
  This is a software bug that has been known for a few months now, since the time when they started to print Compostelas instead of completing them by hand. It is the reason for this thread.

Wait, isn't the third bullet in case 2 actually case 1? In what ways will your full name be different from how you entered it?

It sounds like:

Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:

1. Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
2. Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form

In case 1:
This may be because you entered more than one given name in your online registration form [I am presuming this bug applies to more than two, too.] This is a software bug that has been known for a few months now, since the time when they started to print Compostelas instead of completing them by hand. It is the reason for this thread.

In case 2:

• Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
• Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.

 

[Kathar1na]

Wait, isn't the third bullet in case 2 actually case 1?

I prefer the categorisation that I had chosen in post #45. I have changed the formatting of post #45.

The thread is about this question: Why, in 2023, does the current Compostela get printed with Stephanum Taylor, Robertum Taylor, and Stephen Robert Taylor on it and why does it not get printed with Stephanum Robertum Taylor on it?

PS: Edited to replace "do we see" with "does .... get printed with". This is a fun thread . Sheer unlimited possibilities for honing my skills of trying to express something clearly and simply .

 

[JabbaPapa]

Why, in 2023, do we see Stephanum Taylor, Robertum Taylor, and Stephen Robert Taylor on current Compostelas and why do we not see Stephanum Robertum Taylor?

Because most Pilgrim Office volunteers and most pilgrims have not good enough Latin to immediately spot the mistakes.

FWIW Taylor is basically an Accusative (really, Old French Oblique Case Form -- Taillor), and so correct on a Compostela.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Properly, every given name should be given in its Latinate Accusative, even when the Accusative form is a non-Latin form.

Else its native Accusative.

But Pilgrim Office volunteers are not experts in philology, so that they should be thanked for their good will.

 

[Kathar1na]

For clarification: I am participating in this thread because I think (wrongly perhaps) that some people who are not familiar with Latin vocabulary and grammar are interested in understanding this Compostela name business as far as it concerns them.

That's really all.

I myself have figured out the structure of the Compostela text a long time ago. There is nothing new to learn or to discuss about the Latin text as far as I am concerned.

 

[michal.don]

Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:

1. Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
2. Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form

In case 2:

• Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
• Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.

I disagree - there is a case 3....
- My given name appeared in a latinased form, in the accusative form
- My surname appeared in a different form, because of the " ˇ " and " ´ " slavic surnames often have, and I guess Spanish people are not accustomed to. They appeared over different letters than they should have. Which is a proof that at least during November of last year, the name was handwritten on the Compostellas

 

[Kathar1na]

I disagree - there is a case 3....
- My given name appeared in a latinased form, in the accusative form
- My surname appeared in a different form, because of the " ˇ " and " ´ " slavic surnames often have, and I guess Spanish people are not accustomed to. They appeared over different letters than they should have. Which is a proof that at least during November of last year, the name was handwritten on the Compostellas

I suggest that we stick to a minimum of habitual logic.

I was not talking about last year.
I was not talking about Spanish people entering your name on their keyboard into the data processing system. Or writing your name with a pen on paper.

I was talking about now, about this current year, from about spring onwards.
I was talking about you entering your name on your mobile phone, your tablet or your desktop computer in the online registration form.

I understand that this comment is about names with special characters such as the surname Dvořáček for example.
I checked the online registration form.

It won't accept the spelling Dvořáček.​

Nor Dvoráček.​

Nor Dvořácek.​

It says Formato incorrecto in bold red letters.​

It will accept the spelling Dvorácek.​

Or Dvoracek.​

I would not be surprised if it turns out that a number of other special characters of the alphabets of the world are not accepted in the online registration form. Whether on purpose or as an oversight ... I don't know. Anyone who is concerned by this or about this - email them. And if and when you get a reply ... report back here.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Which is a proof that at least during November of last year, the name was handwritten on the Compostellas

No, generally they are computer-printed, which has been the case for years.

But for some of us, by exception, they can still be written by hand. Mine was in October, yours in November, but the vast majority of pilgrims have them computer printed.

 

[Marbe2]

I'm not sure why that makes me sad, but it does.

I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.

Documents in Latin do use a Latin form where one exists, which is just a rule of the language. English by contrast does what it can to keep original forms. The two languages simply treat proper names in quite opposite ways.

These are not "generic" forms, but they are (or should be) the equivalent proper forms in Latin. Where they exist. Where they don't, the original name is used, and it becomes invariable instead of being generically Latinised, so that for example :

Matthew : {1:13} Zorobabel autem genuit Abiud. Abiud autem genuit Eliacim. Eliacim autem genuit Azor.

None of these names have any "generic" Latin forms, but only invariable transcribed ones. If Abiud were to get his Compostela, he would be referred to as "Abiud" therein.

And BTW, that same chapter tells us that the names David, Joseph, and Isaac are invariable in Latin, and there are quite a few names of Ancient origin but still used today without "generic" Latin forms for a Compostela.

As for modern names that have drifted far from some Latin origins or Mediaeval Latin cognates, it would be silly for example to use Theodorem for Todd or Alfredum for Freddy. Virginiam for Ginny.

OTOH if Julius Caesar were to get his Compostela, his name should appear : Gaium Iulium Caesarem.

A Compostela will use a proper Latin form when there is one, whereas volunteers should not erroneously "latinize" a name that simply has no Latin form.

 

[JabbaPapa]

And to make a certain point in a silly way -- if Jabba Papa were my real name (unsurprisingly it isn't), it should appear on a Compostela as :

Dnum. Iabba Papam. First name invariable, surname variable -- opposite to what most pilgrims get.

 

[Flog]

No, generally they are computer-printed, which has been the case for years.

But for some of us, by exception, they can still be written by hand. Mine was in October, yours in November, but the vast majority of pilgrims have them computer printed.

For the last time: There were no printers in the pilgrims office last October. Your unexceptional compostela would have been handwritten along with all the rest of them at that time.

A Compostela will use a proper Latin form when there is one, whereas volunteers should not erroneously "latinize" a name that simply has no Latin form.

Volunteers don't erroneously "latinize" anything. They are tasked to work from a specific database of names.

 

[Kathar1na]

@JabbaPapa, you are making stuff up based on your very limited observation as a pilgrim who passed through the Oficina last year and what is visible online - which is an extremely limited sample of Compostelas. You have no hands on experience with their current or previous computer system as a volunteer or staff user, no insight into how their database has been established, no insight into which rules they actually apply to latinise names.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.

It is more about the fact that it is not hand written anymore but printed. With the hand written name it felt somewhat personal.

Of course that ist only my stupid emotions and nothing else.

 

[Pafayac]

OTOH if Julius Caesar were to get his Compostela, his name should appear : Gaium Iulium Caesarem.

I do not think so.
I rather think, he will be told: « Wait some centuries, and come back, please ! »

 

[JabbaPapa]

@JabbaPapa, you are making stuff up

No I'm not.

And this claim of yours is extremely unhelpful.

 

[peregrina2000]

Ok, I admit that I haven’t followed this debate, but the sniping is being reported. Even with all of this back and forth, it looks to me like the ball has not been advanced much beyond the original question, so I think it’s time to close.