Planes & Poles … recent revision?

[Jenyat53]

In reading various airport security notes (Heathrow, Sydney) about carry on luggage it seems there is a focus on forbidding blades and knifes etc longer than 6cm. After 8 caminos of religiously packing my Pacerpoles separately as checked luggage I am wondering if more people are having success with carrying poles (with rubber tips over 1cm long spikes) in their carry on luggage?
We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.
Just thought I would check in to see what others had been experiencing post COVID.
Btw: I am sure a metal knitting needle could do much more damage than my carbon fibre poles

 

[Bradypus]

I am wondering if more people are having success with carrying poles (with rubber tips over 1cm long spikes) in their checked luggage?

I'm a bit confused. Carrying poles in checked luggage has never been an issue. Did you mean carry-on cabin baggage?

 

[Former member 92300]

This is what the TSA website currently says “Hiking Poles. Carry On Bags: No. Checked Bags: Yes.” UK website says the same. Of course it is ultimately up to the agent who checks your bag. Some agents and some airports are more permissive than others. I still wouldn’t risk it with carry on - I have seen too many poles removed from carry on bags.

 

[dougfitz]

We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.

The best advice is still here: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...sticks-into-the-airplane-cabin-with-me.73727/.

Neither the airport nor the airline is the source of these rules, that is the role of the civil aviation safety authorities in each country or area. As far as I can tell, none of them have amended their rules recently.

Some agents and some airports are more permissive than others.

That is true, although as noted in the linked thread, only the TSA explicitly states that the TSA officer has the final decision. Whether by practice this can happen elsewhere is not explicitly stated in the rules of other countries I have read over the years.

 

[RhysB]

You JUST gave me a minor heart attack haha. I had not even considered not being allowed take my new poles on the plane. I have no checked luggage. It would cost me 50 euros to add checked luggage for each flight and my poles were only 40!
I guess I will send the poles back to amazon and then buy some when I arrive!.

Is there somewhere in SDC that I can donate them before I leave again? For another pilgrim?

 

[Vacajoe]

The Pilgrims House (not the Pilgrims Office) accepts donations of poles. You may also find pilgrims headed to the coast who can use them. In general, flying TO Spain with poles in carry-on is usually okay, but flying out of Spain they must be checked. Yes, there are always exceptions but they are not the rule.

 

[Jenyat53]

I'm a bit confused. Carrying poles in checked luggage has never been an issue. Did you mean carry-on cabin baggage?

Oops … yes of course … that’s what you get when you write a post last thing at night when you know you shouldn’t be on your phone

 

[Kathor1]

In reading various airport security notes (Heathrow, Sydney) about carry on luggage it seems there is a focus on forbidding blades and knifes etc longer than 6cm

I am going to make a number of observations :

You talk about a flight from Heathrow, London, UK to Madrid, Spain. You do not talk about a flight from the USA, to the USA or within the USA. Or from Spain to London or to another city in Europe.

I checked the Heathrow website. About banned items in hand luggage, their website says in particular that these items are banned: The following items may not be carried in hand baggage: Sharp items - This includes knives (with blades over 6cm), razor blades, box cutters, scissors (with blades over 6cm from fulcrum), axes, hatchets, cleavers, ice axes, ice picks, swords, sabres and sharp or pointed martial arts equipment.

This list has been taken word for word from law that has been in force in the UK and in the EU for umpteen years. There has been no recent revision. The law names items that are banned. It is a common minimum standard for European airports. It does not mean that all items that are not listed are allowed.

When you depart from Santiago airport you are explicitly forbidden to carry poles in your hand luggage. You can check them for free with all airlines including budget airlines. I am not aware that other Spanish airports have such an explicit rule WHEN you fly domestically or within Europe (I am NOT talking about flights to the USA !!!).

Anecdotal evidence about departure from European airports to Spain and vice versa varies but there has been no change in the law about explicitly banned items in hand luggage for many many years now. Numerous people adlib to their heart‘s content about what is / could be / ought to be a banned sharp item when such an item is not explicitly listed in applicable law.

 

[RhysB]

The Pilgrims House (not the Pilgrims Office) accepts donations of poles. You may also find pilgrims headed to the coast who can use them. In general, flying TO Spain with poles in carry-on is usually okay, but flying out of Spain they must be checked. Yes, there are always exceptions but they are not the rule.

I will be flying internally in Spain, so maybe I will be OK?

 

[Kathor1]

I will be flying internally in Spain, so maybe I will be OK?

Maybe yes and maybe no. You can always let us know afterwards what your own personal experience was. Have a good journey and Buen Camino.

You do know about the specific rules for flights from Santiago airport, don’t you? If not, they’ve put specific posters up at Santiago airport. I wish I‘d taken a photo when I was there but it was close to the glass door to the security area and it also said on another note that taking of photographs was not allowed.

 

[RhysB]

I think I will return my poles to amazon and then buy them again to be delivered to a collection point in Oviedo. At the end of the primitivo I can decide if I want to donate or pay the postage to send them home. Thanks!

 

[Kathor1]

I think I will return my poles to amazon and then buy them again to be delivered to a collection point in Oviedo. At the end of the primitivo I can decide if I want to donate or pay the postage to send them home. Thanks!

I see that you said you fly on a low-cost ticket from Barcelona to Oviedo. That is always the problem with such tickets, isn’t it? The additional cost at the airport when you unexpectedly have to check luggage or other items after all!

 

[henrythedog]

This covers it and AFAIK is still correct:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/am-i-allowed-to-carry-hiking-poles-walking-sticks-into-the-airplane-cabin-with-me.73727/

At Heathrow - as pretty much everywhere apart from Santiago - it remains a toss-up

We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.

Gov.uk: says’no’

Hand luggage restrictions at UK airports

Hand luggage restrictions at UK airports - carry-on luggage, checked-in baggage, restricted items and liquids, electronic devices carried from Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt and Saudi Arabia

www.gov.uk

 

[RhysB]

I see that you said you fly on a low-cost ticket from Barcelona to Oviedo. That is always the problem with such tickets, isn’t it? The additional cost at the airport when you unexpectedly have to check luggage or other items after all!

I have never had an extra charge in 20 years of flying budget But this one almost got me! I will just get some sticks when I arrive or order them to an amazon locker in Oviedo. Sorted!

 

[Mark Greenwood]

Dam, looks likes I might travel by train. Anyone else done this London to SJPP?

 

[Kitsambler]

Just to clarify, is the prohibition only on assembled poles? Are disassembled poles allowed? I have on, on at least one occasion, got my disassembled (3-piece) Pacerpoles through TSA here in Seattle.

 

[BigT]

Surely would be nice if poles could be tagged by the owner and gate checked as one enters the plane, to be picked up on arrival as one is exiting the plane.
Silly me.
I must have had my "common sense solution" pill yesterday.

 

[dutchwalkagain]

I've always taken my poles from Miami to Madrid in a special cheap bag as checked luggage my previous 5 Camino's. However this year I won't. We were able to book super cheap flights for end of April from Miami to Madrid for $450 round trip . However to check a bag would be $100 each way. Not worth it for hiking poles. We will go without this time and buy some cheap ones in Spain and donate them (if possible) at the end of our walk. Problem solved (unless all cheaper hiking poles are sold out upon arrival )

 

[BobY333]

My strategy (from the US > Spain) has been to put my poles inside my backpack and carry my backpack onto the plane. This has worked all three times I've gone. I also carry a zippered IKEA indestructible bag on the bottom of my pack. For my return flight from Spain > US I put my backpack and everything else into the IKEA bag and check it for the ride home.

 

[C clearly]

I will be flying internally in Spain, so maybe I will be OK?

In general, flying TO Spain with poles in carry-on is usually okay

No, this is not a safe generalization.

Just to clarify, is the prohibition only on assembled poles? Are disassembled poles allowed? I have on, on at least one occasion, got my disassembled (3-piece) Pacerpoles through TSA here in Seattle.

This is an important point that usually gets ignored in these discussions. It seems that folding carbon fibre poles are OFTEN allowed.

only the TSA explicitly states that the TSA officer has the final decision.

Maybe only the TSA explicitly states this on their website, but that does not mean that authorities in other countries do not exercise their own policies and interpretation. The website language is a public service communication and is purposely kept simple.

As far as I have heard, nobody gives a precise definition of a hiking pole. Is a dissassembled pole still a hiking pole? Is a 14" folding contraption a "pole."

put my poles inside my backpack

Inside or outside makes no difference. The scanner sees them.

 

[mattythedog]

In reading various airport security notes (Heathrow, Sydney) about carry on luggage it seems there is a focus on forbidding blades and knifes etc longer than 6cm. After 8 caminos of religiously packing my Pacerpoles separately as checked luggage I am wondering if more people are having success with carrying poles (with rubber tips over 1cm long spikes) in their carry on luggage?
We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.
Just thought I would check in to see what others had been experiencing post COVID.
Btw: I am sure a metal knitting needle could do much more damage than my carbon fibre poles

I unscrew the carbide tips from my Carbon ZZ's and role up the poles in my sleep sack which fits into 8L dryback with my spare clothes, which all goes into my small Osprey Talon 33L pack. Name and address already marked on the dry bag in case they catch it and make me check the poles last minute. Never been caught, even leaving Santiago.

 

[lt56ny]

Oops … yes of course … that’s what you get when you write a post last thing at night when you know you shouldn’t be on your phone

Even writing posts on your phone can be a dicey situation!!!

 

[Former member 92300]

Dam, looks likes I might travel by train. Anyone else done this London to SJPP?

No - but I have done Paris to London and then Paris to Bayonne on separate occasions. You might want to look to see if there are any luggage restrictions for the train from Paris to London - I know I did have to have my bag scanned for that route.

Otherwise - hiking poles are usually allowed on trains - I just don't want to assume that is the case for the Eurostar routes.

Beyond that - I love travelling by train! The Eurostar IS a bit more expensive though - usually anyway.

 

[Former member 92300]

Neither the airport nor the airline is the source of these rules, that is the role of the civil aviation safety authorities in each country or area. As far as I can tell, none of them have amended their rules recently.

That is true, although as noted in the linked thread, only the TSA explicitly states that the TSA officer has the final decision. Whether by practice this can happen elsewhere is not explicitly stated in the rules of other countries I have read over the years.

First - if you are going to quote me - please make sure to actually quote my post. I said nothing about "We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security." - that was the original poster who said that - but you quoted it as if I said it. I didn't. I have never travelled from Australia to Madrid through Heathrow - therefore I didn't have that conversation the OP stated they had.

Second - I didn't say other country websites say anything on their websites about the officer having the final decision. Heck - I didn't even say that the TSA website says it - even though I know it does. But the truth is - whether it is stated or not - ultimately the officer/agent who scans your bag is the person who says you can pass with all contents or not. You can go through an airport a thousand times and 1 agent can let something slide that the other agents don't let slide - which is why some people have their poles removed from their bags and others do not. As I said - some airports and some agents are more lax than others with the rules regarding poles. I still wouldn't take the chance my poles might be confiscated.

Nothing in my reply was inaccurate.

 

[henrythedog]

As far as I have heard, nobody gives a precise definition of a hiking pole. Is a dissassembled pole still a hiking pole? Is a 14" folding contraption a "pole."

When you remove a part from a hiking pole, is it still a hiking pole. Congratulations; I think you’ve come up with another variation on one of the oldest questions of logic. Apparently it’s possible to infer a great deal about the speaker from the version they identify with .

A well educated classicist - the ship of Theseus

A traditionalist - my grandfathers axe

A fan of 1990s British sitcoms - Trigger’s broom

Someone considerably younger than I - the line up of the Sugababes (a popular vocal ensemble, m’lud)

 

[Kathor1]

We have gone through this a thousand times. This is where I have taken umbrage in the past: the insinuation that “some airports are more permissive than others”, that “1 agent can let something slide that the other agents don't let slide” and (not a direct quote) that we - and here I mean we who have travelled from EU airports to Spain and other European destinations and actually ASKED at the airport of departure and were TOLD at the airport of departure that we can take our poles on board and had attached them to the OUTSIDE of our backpacks in plain view - that we are somehow dodging the law or are “just lucky” and that we are scofflaws. We who don’t care about TSA agents and TSA rules because they don’t apply to where we fly.

Nowadays I am less sensitive because I know that these threads will end up being closed soon.



PS: Edited to emphasize: “in the past”.
PPS: Edited to remove quote.

 

[Doingit]

You JUST gave me a minor heart attack haha. I had not even considered not being allowed take my new poles on the plane. I have no checked luggage. It would cost me 50 euros to add checked luggage for each flight and my poles were only 40!
I guess I will send the poles back to amazon and then buy some when I arrive!.

Is there somewhere in SDC that I can donate them before I leave again? For another pilgrim?

check Decathlon stores - it is a chain of french sports store with good equipment. There are poles in all price ranges. This is what i will be doing when i start in 3 weeks. Im sure there are other stores in SJPP or on the Spanish side

 

[Tom Cartwright]

The Pilgrims House (not the Pilgrims Office) accepts donations of poles. You may also find pilgrims headed to the coast who can use them. In general, flying TO Spain with poles in carry-on is usually okay, but flying out of Spain they must be checked. Yes, there are always exceptions but they are not the rule.

I have been told in the US the last 3 times to check..before that it was not bad..I always them in a tube in my pack to the airport in case they tell me I have to check. But try first to get in carry on...you cannot count on it in the US.

 

[Former member 92300]

and here I mean we who have travelled from EU airports to Spain and other European destinations and actually ASKED at the airport of departure and were TOLD at the airport of departure that we can take our poles on board and had attached them to the OUTSIDE of our backpacks in plain view - that we are somehow dodging the law or are “just lucky” and that we are scofflaws. We who don’t care about TSA agents and TSA rules because they don’t apply to where we fly.

Nowadays I am less sensitive because I know that these threads will end up being closed soon.

Yes, I mentioned TSA - but I also mentioned the UK website. The UK website does apply in the situation the OP asked about and the UK website says poles are not permitted in carry on (like the TSA website). This person mentioned HEATHROW which is IN THE UK. Again - I did not mis-speak. In the UNITED KINGDOM hiking poles are not technically allowed in Carry On according to the UK government website. And if Heathrow, which is IN the UK, is allowing them - then that is proof that some airports are more permissive. And if an agent at Heathrow says they are OK in an airport in a country where poles are not permitted in carry on according to the government website - then that is proof that the agent is more permissive. But the fact remains - they are not technically not permitted according to the UK website.

And yes - some airports are more permissive. And some agents are more permissive. This is a fact in MANY countries where they are not permitted in carry on.

I did NOT say that you were somehow dodging the laws or are just "lucky" or that you are scofflaws if you are allowed on the plane with them - you are making that supposition, not me. Don't put words in my mouth (or in my written page)

Again - nothing I said was incorrect. And my saying "I wouldn't risk it" - well - just stating what "I" would or wouldn't do. My poles at home are expensive. Not willing to lose them at the airport when some agent could chose to follow the government regulation about poles in carry on, and I am also not willing to check them with check in luggage. That is my choice. Every one of us makes their own choices. I didn't say "don't do it, it is against the law!", did I?

 

[henrythedog]

I have been told in the US the last 3 times to check..before that it was not bad..I always them in a tube in my pack to the airport in case they tell me I have to check. But try first to get in carry on...you cannot count on it in the US.

Similar in the UK. The rules - which are set nationally and published on a government website are crystal clear; no poles in hand-luggage; yet at least one airline (earlier post - which I’ve no reason to doubt) says ‘it’s OK’, and numerous posters in the very many times this has been revisited say they carried poles on.

I’ve no wish to pronounce on luck or rule-breaking, but whether you choose to aquaint yourself with the law, or not, IF your poles were not allowed at security the advice or assurance of any third-party would get you nowhere.

 

[AchimBerlin]

Dam, looks likes I might travel by train. Anyone else done this London to SJPP?

Did it from Berlin. Very comfy and relaxing despite having to change trains three times (Cologne, Paris, Bayonne) and in Paris even between train stations. Nice training walk from Gare du Nord to Montparnasse anyway, if you have the time. This took me around 20 hours but slowed me down enough for the experience of walking the next morning from SJPP.
Anytime again. Pitty that European train-connections aren't better and faster. Otherwise I would like to travel back from Spain to Germany. So far that would be a matter of two days.

 

[Aysen Mustafa]

I flew interstate in Australia with a very small pocket knife in hand luggage, which I forgot to check. It was confiscated but it wasn't worth much so I didn't care. I did the same in China once but it was my Swiss army knife which I had for years. So to keep it, I had to have it packed in a box, taped, and then checked it in. I am flying with Qatar Airways to Milan from Melbourne, and they told me I could bring along hiking poles in checked luggage.

 

[Dennis Pack]

Can we please not have any more postings/discussions about *%#"' poles? I find it hard to believe this "issue" hasn't been resolved in hundreds of other posts. Use the search function ...
Solution: Just buy them locally and support the people that make the caminos possible ... it's not expensive and it's not difficult ... and much appreciated.

 

[dougfitz]

I have been travelling, and had limited opportunity to look at forum posts, and this one in particular. I did craft a response to some of the matters, but it looked too much like it needed to be dealt with outside the thread. The one item that might be of general interest is @jeanineonthecamino's concern about being misquoted.

First - if you are going to quote me - please make sure to actually quote my post and not the post I was quoting.

I apologize for that. I don't know how that occurred, but I can assure you that it was not my intention to attribute that comment to you. Given I only use the forum 'Reply' or 'Quote' features, it puzzles me what might have happened.

 

[trecile]

Can we please not have any more postings/discussions about *%#"' poles? I find it hard to believe this "issue" hasn't been resolved in hundreds of other posts. Use the search function ...
Solution: Just buy them locally and support the people that make the caminos possible ... it's not expensive and it's not difficult ... and much appreciated.

I agree, we already have this rather definitive thread about poles on planes, but you know that there are those who want to tell their tale of woe about their poles being taken from them, or those who want to proudly proclaim that they have never had any problem carrying their poles onto the plane.

 

[C clearly]

I find it hard to believe this "issue" hasn't been resolved in hundreds of other posts.

Yes, it is surprising, but apparently the whole world just hasn't been paying attention to our threads.

if you are going to quote me...

Given I only use the forum 'Reply' or 'Quote' features, it puzzles me what might have happened.

My explanation might not be exactly what happened, but it illustrates a hazard... I have found that If I have two quotes selected and placed, and then backspace in the second quote, it is very easy to backspace right into the quote above without noticing. This places the words of the second quote under the name of the first one. Once you are aware of this possibility, it is good to be watchful for it.

 

[Susan Peacock]

So as we all know the debate of taking your poles from your home country comes up often and the consensus is that is not a “ one size fits all answer”, but I would add that while you may get them to SJPdP you will most likely not take them on at the Santiago airport when you return home.
Also, has anyone been asked to check them for free in the US since they are not technically allowed in carryon’s?

 

[C clearly]

has anyone been asked to check them for free in the US since they are not technically allowed in carryon’s?

I haven't heard of this happening. After all, they don't offer to check other disallowed things (liquids, sharps, etc.) for free. I suspect that Santiago airport is the exception because so many passengers would be trying to leave with poles in their hand baggage and arguing about fees, etc., that the disruption at security would be too much of a problem. Simpler to have this agreement among airlines.

 

[GailGwyn]

In reading various airport security notes (Heathrow, Sydney) about carry on luggage it seems there is a focus on forbidding blades and knifes etc longer than 6cm. After 8 caminos of religiously packing my Pacerpoles separately as checked luggage I am wondering if more people are having success with carrying poles (with rubber tips over 1cm long spikes) in their carry on luggage?
We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.
Just thought I would check in to see what others had been experiencing post COVID.
Btw: I am sure a metal knitting needle could do much more damage than my carbon fibre poles

We flew out from the UK a couple of weeks ago, from Manchester to Madrid, with Ryanair. I too have Pacerpoles, but didn't want to chance having them confiscated, so found a cheap pair in the garage that I didn't mind having to give up.

I got through security, no problem. Whilst queuing up to board, they were glanced at, but I wasn't challenged. I will see what happens on the way home.

I did miss my Pacerpoles though

 

[Tigger]

I thought the idea was to help each other. This thread looks very similar to one recently closed. A list from a participant or poll of how many folks have been able to carry on their hiking poles will unfortunately not change any laws or luck... (Nor temporarily convert a hiking pole into something else for the flight.)

Let's encourage others being mindful that this is an international group. People may have different considerations based on where they live or how they will travel. Objects, chemicals, medications, etc vary and this forum is very helpful sort these things when people stick to the issues. No need to kill the topic with debate and controversy.

 

[Jenny1003]

In reading various airport security notes (Heathrow, Sydney) about carry on luggage it seems there is a focus on forbidding blades and knifes etc longer than 6cm. After 8 caminos of religiously packing my Pacerpoles separately as checked luggage I am wondering if more people are having success with carrying poles (with rubber tips over 1cm long spikes) in their carry on luggage?
We were told at Heathrow (heading from Australia to Madrid) by British airways not to bother checking the poles and had no problem with security.
Just thought I would check in to see what others had been experiencing post COVID.
Btw: I am sure a metal knitting needle could do much more damage than my carbon fibre poles

I tried to fly from Stansted last week with collapsible trekking poles in my hand luggage (as I only brought one rucksack). They were taken off me at security, as the ‘joints’ were deemed sharp and dangerous. Walking poles are only allowed if you are visually impaired, apparently. Reclaiming them in person on return is not possible (as the office will be shut when I fly in) and the postage charge is more than the cost of a new set!

 

[Jenyat53]

Might be time to close this off now
It was simply an inquiry to see if I had missed a policy change.
All the factual information has been very helpful and I will continue to pack my PacerPoles with their challengingly large handles in whatever box I can find and check them … for me they are definitely too precious to lose.
Thanks to all contributors

 

[Susan Peacock]

Might be time to close this off now
It was simply an inquiry to see if I had missed a policy change.
All the factual information has been very helpful and I will continue to pack my PacerPoles with their challengingly large handles in whatever box I can find and check them … for me they are definitely too precious to lose.
Thanks to all contributors

I agree. Won’t leave home without my Pacer Poles. Buen Camino

 

[Kathor1]

It was simply an inquiry to see if I had missed a policy change.

And the answer to your question is that none of the participants in this thread, myself included, knows whether there has been a policy change at Heathrow airport as to walking/hiking poles on flights from London Heathrow to Madrid Barajas.

I did write to Heathrow airport though via the contact page on their website. My question is unlikely to reach the actual security department, it will probably be answered by the Helpline staff. If I find something worthwhile to report in their reply, I’ll let you know.

 

[Kathor1]

I find something worthwhile to report in their reply, I’ll let you know.

The answer came quickly and I did not find anything worthwhile in it to report but I am doing it nevertheless. As expected, it came from a Customer Service Advisor and not from the security department of Heathrow itself. Despite the fact that I had pointed out that links to websites and reports from travellers are contradictory and confusing and that I had quoted (without naming names) that one of many similar reports appear to indicate that [folded up walking sticks] are allowed on flights from Heathrow to Madrid, this was completely ignored by the customer service person. As expected, btw. The answer in all its glory:

Thank you for reaching out to Heathrow regarding taking walking poles in your hand baggage.​

I have checked this with gov.uk and they confirm that walking/hiking poles are not allowed to be carried in hand luggage. I have provided a link which you can access by clicking here. ​

Thank you for taking the time to contact Heathrow and if you have any further questions please do not hesitate in getting back to us.​

​

[No final icon from me at the end of this post … I am spoilt for choice]

 

[henrythedog]

whoever is ‘tweeting’ for Heathrow replied to a similar query from me with less certainty as follows:

Hi walking polls may be permitted through hand luggage however we advise checking the Government website: http://ms.spr.ly/6017gGQwD as well as liaising with your airline directly: http://ms.spr.ly/6018gGQwE as they can as they can further assist you with this as well as provide all relevant information on their allowance through hand luggage.

I’ll go for a

Perhaps poles are permitted if you remove the ‘e’

 

[C clearly]

Might be time to close this off now
It was simply an inquiry to see if I had missed a policy change.

Yes, this is a good time to call it. We have all had a chance to address the OP's question, and she is satisfied with the information.

For those who think we should have no future discussion of this question of poles on planes, you will need to grit your teeth and accept that it will arise again. The facts are summarized in this post but people seem to need a regular airing of the anecdotal evidence, before they get an appreciation of the risks and solutions.

 

[trecile]

Perhaps poles are permitted if you remove the ‘e’

And add an L