Proof of income, accommodation and return travel.

[Jopoke]

I have heard for the second time this week, one coming from Simon Calder. Is it true that we are having to prove where you are staying, how much you have in the bank and proof of return travel home. If it is true, how do you get round this on a Camino when we don't have accommodation set up and we don't know what date we finish. Has anyone else heard of this.

 

[Bradypus]

That is the official position for visitors from the UK. It is spelled out in the FCO advice for travel to Spain: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements. I think the important phrase is that "you may need to...." It is up to the Spanish border officers how much of this is actually applied in any individual case. My own entirely unofficial prediction is that in most cases a relatively prosperous looking Brit entering the country on a UK passport is unlikely to be challenged to provide all the evidence you cite.

 

[Mananath]

Where is your passport from?

 

[Jopoke]

Where is your passport from?

UK

 

[Former member 102963]

I have heard for the second time this week, one coming from Simon Calder. Is it true that we are having to prove where you are staying, how much you have in the bank and proof of return travel home. If it is true, how do you get round this on a Camino when we don't have accommodation set up and we don't know what date we finish. Has anyone else heard of this.

There are many ‘small print’ rules across many countries that are pretty much never enacted and probably never will be. I would be amazed if you had any problems!

 

[J Willhaus]

Usually we are asked why we are coming to Spain. We say the Camino de Santiago, get a Buen Camino and a wave through.

 

[Former member 102963]

Usually we are asked why we are coming to Spain. We say the Camino de Santiago, get a Buen Camino and a wave through.

I don’t think UK citizens are asked for a reason for travel (certainly never in my experience) and there is no landing cards so again there is no issue as such!

 

[Kathor1]

coming from Simon Calder

I had to look up the name: Simon Calder is a British travel journalist and broadcaster (and I see that you are from Manchester). Yes, the info is basically correct. UK citizens belong now to the category of TCNs - third country nationals, and they are subject to the same EU entry rules as citizens from the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand for example. This topic has been discussed several times on the forum. To cut a long story short: it is very unlikely that you will ever be asked for proof of accommodation, financial means and return ticket. In the unlikely event that you even will be asked anything in this respect, it will be enough to make it plausible that you comply. Just answer truthfully what your Camino plans are and that’s it. Buen Camino!

 

[Former member 102963]

I had to look up the name: Simon Calder is a British travel journalist and broadcaster (and I see that you are from Manchester). Yes, the info is basically correct. UK citizens belong now to the category of TCNs - third country nationals, and they are subject to the same EU entry rules as citizens from the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand for example. This topic has been discussed several times on the forum. To cut a long story short: it is very unlikely that you will ever be asked for proof of accommodation, financial means and return ticket. In the unlikely event that you even will be asked anything in this respect, it will be enough to make it plausible that you comply. Just answer truthfully what your Camino plans are and that’s it. Buen Camino!

Simon Calder is pretty much the most authoritative media voice on ‘airline travel’ in UK and is constantly on TV/ Radio taking about issues such as impact of brexit, disruption, and so forth. He breaks it down for the mass travel population in an engaging and simplified way. He’s quite famous and certainly carries a lot of credibility. He will of course talk of rules as a starting point.

 

[trecile]

Simon Calder is pretty much the most authoritative media voice on ‘airline travel’ in UK and is constantly on TV/ Radio taking about issues such as impact of brexit, disruption, and so forth. He breaks it down for the mass travel population in an engaging and simplified way. He’s quite famous and certainly carries a lot of credibility. He will of course talk of rules as a starting point.

If he's giving the impression that UK citizens always need to show proof of income, accommodations, and return flight, then he's not doing a very good job.

 

[Former member 102963]

If he's giving the impression that UK citizens always need to show proof of income, accommodations, and return flight, then he's not doing a very good job.

I have not seen the quotes, piece to camera, or whatever the OP has seen. I would be amazed if he wouldn’t have caveated any rules he quoted with real world reality! That’s his strength! The vast majority of UK citizens will not be under the impression that all these things are needed!

 

[dougfitz]

The vast majority of UK citizens will not be under the impression that all these things are needed!

Perhaps just one of the many adjustments to being outside the EU that they will need to make. It is, after all, the same treatment the UK gave non-EU travellers on arrival in the UK in the past. We have always been asked where we will be staying, and depending on where we were travelling in Europe, proof of return travel bookings.

Similar questions have always been part of the international travel process for as long as I have been travelling outside of Australia. They are nothing new to many of us. At a practical level, I always use the first address I will be staying at, or intend to stay at, if I know that. Alternatively, I provide contact information that will allow me to be found should that be required. Proof of return travel and financial sufficiency is easy if you have apps to manage these aspects of your life, but in the past I have carried paper documents just in case I was asked.

I haven't faced the situation raised by the OP of not having return travel to Australia booked, but I have regularly travelled to Spain and elsewhere in Europe without all the connections confirmed. Perhaps I am being naive here, but simply explaining that is likely to be sufficient, unless the immigration officer involved knows of some reason to deny you entry if you cannot show you are going to leave.

 

[Former member 102963]

Perhaps just one of the many adjustments to being outside the EU that they will need to make. It is, after all, the same treatment the UK gave non-EU travellers on arrival in the UK in the past. We have always been asked where we will be staying, and depending on where we were travelling in Europe, proof of return travel bookings.

Similar questions have always been part of the international travel process for as long as I have been travelling outside of Australia. They are nothing new to many of us. At a practical level, I always use the first address I will be staying at, or intend to stay at, if I know that. Alternatively, I provide contact information that will allow me to be found should that be required. Proof of return travel and financial sufficiency is easy if you have apps to manage these aspects of your life, but in the past I have carried paper documents just in case I was asked.

I haven't faced the situation raised by the OP of not having return travel to Australia booked, but I have regularly travelled to Spain and elsewhere in Europe without all the connections confirmed. Perhaps I am being naive here, but simply explaining that is likely to be sufficient, unless the immigration officer involved knows of some reason to deny you entry if you cannot show you are going to leave.

From a UK standpoint its quite a fuzzy arena and there are a number of segments I guess. There is EU, Europe (non EU) a number of ‘preferred’ long distance countries (I. E . USA, Canada, Australia, NZ) which may benefit from E gates for example, and the the rest. UK folks now get their passport stamped on arrival at EU member countries for example but no landing cards.

As an aside I was refused check in whilst going to Colombia last month from Ecuador as had no onward travel ticket!


The other salient point (and this is not political) is that ‘ease of travel’ has become a huge battleground post the EU referendum. So pro remain press (esp print) will use quotes to emphasise that thing are more difficult now and pro leave will use different quotes to suggest that sit business as usual. Just the way it is!

 

[Ian Salsbury]

Similar rules in most European countries, but I've never been asked. Scare mongering, don't worry about it. I've just got back to the UK from Santiago, no such issues. The only time you are likely to be checked as to what funds you have is when applying for a visa to stop more than 90 days, it is part of the application process . The border controls don't have the time or inclination to check such things. Besides if you are in possession or a credit card you are likely to have adequate funds. Simon Calder is just stating the regulations and the media jump on such things as click bait to get your attention.

 

[Former member 102963]

Similar rules in most European countries, but I've never been asked. Scare mongering, don't worry about it. I've just got back to the UK from Santiago, no such issues. The only time you are likely to be checked as to what funds you have is when applying for a visa to stop more than 90 days, it is part of the application process . The border controls don't have the time or inclination to check such things. Besides if you are in possession or a credit card you are likely to have adequate funds. Simon Calder is just stating the regulations and the media jump on such things as click bait to get your attention.

Correct. Similar story about UK folks travelling to France. Something about registering at the Town Hall if you are staying with friends!

 

[Sue127]

That is the official position for visitors from the UK. It is spelled out in the FCO advice for travel to Spain: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements. I think the important phrase is that "you may need to...." It is up to the Spanish border officers how much of this is actually applied in any individual case. My own entirely unofficial prediction is that in most cases a relatively prosperous looking Brit entering the country on a UK passport is unlikely to be challenged to provide all the evidence you cite.

I was not asked at the beginning of July.

 

[Kathor1]

UK folks now get their passport stamped on arrival at EU member countries for example but no landing cards.

Of course they get their passport stanped with an Entry stamp and an Exit stamp and of course there are no landing cards. As I said, British travellers from the UK to the EU/Schengen area had been treated as EU citizens until 31 December 2020 (I think) and since then they are treated as Third Country Nationals like thousands of travellers from other non-EU countries who also benefit from the visa waiver program, like the USA and many others - no more and no less.

 

[Former member 102963]

Of course they get their passport stanped with an Entry stamp and an Exit stamp and of course there are no landing cards. As I said, British travellers from the UK to the EU/Schengen area had been treated as EU citizens until 31 December 2020 (I think) and since then they are treated as Third Country Nationals like thousands of travellers from other non-EU countries who also benefit from the visa waiver program, like the USA and many others - no more and no less.

Yes I know all that! UK citizens will need to apply for an ETIAS from May 2023, effectively a Schengen zone visa waiver scheme.

 

[lt56ny]

I have been to Europe many, many times and traveled directly into Spain 7 times and I have never been asked. In fact I can't remember a customs agent doing anything more than scanning my passport, stamping it and handing it back. Barely a mumble out of the agent. That is only my experience.

 

[Jopoke]

I did the Norte in May and had other trips to Spain this year and I haven't been asked. I just thought they might be tightening the rules now. If this rule has been about done time then I'm not worried. Thank you everyone for further info.

 

[Former member 102963]

I did the Norte in May and had other trips to Spain this year and I haven't been asked. I just thought they might be tightening the rules now. If this rule has been about done time then I'm not worried. Thank you everyone for further info.

Funny enough Simon Calder just appeared on my news feed about this weekends disruption at Dover. He made the point that one of the factors is that UK passports have to be stamped now on entering France so it takes longer. He then said and ‘theoretically other check led may be needed’ so it sounds like sensible positioning to me!

 

[Vince Rollason]

I have heard for the second time this week, one coming from Simon Calder. Is it true that we are having to prove where you are staying, how much you have in the bank and proof of return travel home. If it is true, how do you get round this on a Camino when we don't have accommodation set up and we don't know what date we finish. Has anyone else heard of this.

This is the case I walked Sarria to SDC at the end of May/begining of June with 3 family members. We were prepared with our Camino credentials. banking apps on our phones and Spanish Travel Health apps. At Madrid airport they just stamped our passports and waved us through with no questions asked. Although I am a born and bred Brummie my mother was Irish and were it not for the others only having British passports I would have used my Irish passport to avoid the queue.

 

[VeronicaF1]

I have heard for the second time this week, one coming from Simon Calder. Is it true that we are having to prove where you are staying, how much you have in the bank and proof of return travel home. If it is true, how do you get round this on a Camino when we don't have accommodation set up and we don't know what date we finish. Has anyone else heard of this.

If you check the official details it is true - but ( at the moment anyway) rarel enforced. If requested you need to show a return ticket and be able to show that you can access sufficient funds ( c€85 per day). English people can sign up to receive alerts from our government covering changes in entry and Covid requirements.

 

[VNwalking]

If you check the official details it is true - but ( at the moment anyway) rarel enforced.

Similar rules in most European countries, but I've never been asked. Scare mongering, don't worry about it. I've just got back to the UK from Santiago, no such issues. The only time you are likely to be checked as to what funds you have is when applying for a visa to stop more than 90 days, it is part of the application process . The border controls don't have the time or inclination to check such things.

'Rarely' is right, but it really matters if you happen to be one of the rare cases of official scrutiny. So it pays to be prepared.

"Scare mongering, don't worry about it" based on the experience of one trip is totally misleading.
In May this year I was pulled off a train between Switzerland and Italy - and can tell you from very unpleasant experience (and later stories from others) that there are border officials who certainly do have time for such things.

 

[Kathor1]

Funny enough Simon Calder just appeared on my news feed about this weekends disruption at Dover. He made the point that one of the factors is that UK passports have to be stamped now on entering France so it takes longer. He then said and ‘theoretically other check led may be needed’ so it sounds like sensible positioning to me!

He did his “podcast of the week“ and linked it to his Twitter account on 22 July.

Quote: “They [French border police at Dover] have to check your passport and make sure that you haven’t stayed for more than 90 days in the last 180 days. They are supposed to ask you if you have got enough money to go on your trip, whether you got accommodation booked, have you got a ticket out of France at the end of your stay. All of those questions have to be addressed. Now, in practice of course they are not but you still have to get your stamp in your passport.“

So this is the reason why we have this thread. From all I know and from all I’ve read, he is wrong in saying that they “are supposed” to ask. They could ask, they can ask (based on EU law) but they don’t have to question every TCN traveller, or are “supposed” to do so and they don’t, whether that‘s at an external EU land border in Dover or at an external EU air border in Madrid. Nothing has changed for EU border control, they’ve been processing third country nationals at external EU borders in the same way for umpteen years. The only difference now: there are a lot more of them to process on summer holiday weekends in Dover than before 11 pm local time on 31 December 2020.

 

[Harland2019]

That is the official position for visitors from the UK. It is spelled out in the FCO advice for travel to Spain: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements. I think the important phrase is that "you may need to...." It is up to the Spanish border officers how much of this is actually applied in any individual case. My own entirely unofficial prediction is that in most cases a relatively prosperous looking Brit entering the country on a UK passport is unlikely to be challenged to provide all the evidence you cite.

"in most cases a relatively prosperous looking Brit" - You've not seen me going to start a Camino, especially if I have decided to look like a pilgrim and have grown my hair (thankfully I still have some!) and I've not shaved for a week or so!

 

[Anniesantiago]

On the other hand I know of an American acquaintance who was between jobs and was not admitted to the UK one year because she couldn't provide proof of employment and couldn’t remember the address of the woman hosting her. (Mostly being flustered by the questions being asked.).

 

[VNwalking]

(Mostly being flustered by the questions being asked.).

Sigh. If you look different or stand out in some way, you're much more likely to be grilled - and it can be pretty disconcerting. Getting us flustered seems the point of the exercise.
So to avoid unnecessary trouble, it pays to look tidy and as bland and conventional as possible, even while carrying a pack and wearing camino clothes.

 

[MikeJS]

If you check the official details it is true - but ( at the moment anyway) rarel enforced. If requested you need to show a return ticket and be able to show that you can access sufficient funds ( c€85 per day). English people can sign up to receive alerts from our government covering changes in entry and Covid requirements.

I never have a return ticket until near the end of my hikes as I never know exactly when I will be leaving.

 

[JoanL]

That is the official position for visitors from the UK. It is spelled out in the FCO advice for travel to Spain: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements. I think the important phrase is that "you may need to...." It is up to the Spanish border officers how much of this is actually applied in any individual case. My own entirely unofficial prediction is that in most cases a relatively prosperous looking Brit entering the country on a UK passport is unlikely to be challenged to provide all the evidence you cite.

The way I read the refs is not proof of income, but enough resources for your stay, and only if flying into Spain, not walking over the border. That said, three weeks ago the only asked where I was going, no request for proof of resources

 

[dbier]

As a non Schengen country resident flying to Spain thru Germany last year, it was the immigration control in Frankfurt who wanted to see my itinerary and my return ticket. Did I mention that my husband and I were going from Sarria to Santiago and then on a 10 day guided tour? And flying back through Lisbon on Tap Portugal?

He gave up after the 3rd email on my phone...all in English, of course. ;/

 

[Kathor1]

and ‘why now’

I can’t wait for it to be the end of the first week of September and all this will be over … I am of course referring to the increase of the number of crossborder travellers where the focus will shift away from Dover and Folkestone and back to SJPP with their traditional seasonal increase of the number of international pilgrims setting out from there and the traditional bottlenecks in that area.

 

[Kanga]

If I were a citizen of the UK, I would be grateful for the information. Problems usually come when people are unprepared.

There was a news story here in Australia recently about a young man who arrived in one advanced western country and was refused entry and returned immediately to Australia, despite actually meeting all the requirements. His problem was that he was not able to prove it - all his information was on his mobile phone (with an Australian SIM card) and while he was being interrogated by the customs officer he could not access that information because his phone would not connect to the local network or wifi. He could not even make a telephone call, and the customs officer was not prepared to allow him to use someone else's phone.

It was considered by the media here as rather mean spirited, as the young man had worked a second job to save up for this big trip, but it was completely within the law of the relevant country.

As an Australian I have always had to comply with the regulations as a "stranger" entering Europe. My situation has been exactly as @dougfitz describes - knowing the visa requirements, having a return ticket (with paper proof), having a passport with an expiry date at least 6 months after the date of my return ticket, having the means to cover my expenses for the whole of my trip and the ability to prove it, and knowing the address of at least the first night's accommodation and my planned activities. I have often been asked what I intend to do, and happily reel off the detail.

 

[Former member 102963]

If I were a citizen of the UK, I would be grateful for the information. Problems usually come when people are unprepared.

There was a news story here in Australia recently about a young man who arrived in one advanced western country and was refused entry and returned immediately to Australia, despite actually meeting all the requirements. His problem was that he was not able to prove it - all his information was on his mobile phone (with an Australian SIM card) and while he was being interrogated by the customs officer he could not access that information because his phone would not connect to the local network or wifi. He could not even make a telephone call, and the customs officer was not prepared to allow him to use someone else's phone.

It was considered by the media here as rather mean spirited, as the young man had worked a second job to save up for this big trip, but it was completely within the law of the relevant country.

As an Australian I have always had to comply with the regulations as a "stranger" entering Europe. My situation has been exactly as @dougfitz describes - knowing the visa requirements, having a return ticket (with paper proof), having a passport with an expiry date at least 6 months after the date of my return ticket, having the means to cover my expenses for the whole of my trip and the ability to prove it, and knowing the address of at least the first night's accommodation and my planned activities. I have often been asked what I intend to do, and happily reel off the detail.

Yes what you describe is relatively standard worldwide as policy and enforcement varies a lot! I checked in for a flight to Colombia last month and they insisted on seeing a ticket for my journey out of Colombia which I didn’t have!!! !

 

[Camino Chrissy]

If I were a citizen of the UK, I would be grateful for the information. Problems usually come when people are unprepared.

Agree, and it is relevant as many UKer's come to the EU to walk Caminos.

His problem was that he was not able to prove it - all his information was on his mobile phone (with an Australian SIM card) and while he was being interrogated by the customs officer he could not access that information because his phone would not connect to the local network or wifi.

Although our phones are invaluable and often provide ease of use for us when traveling, I am one who always prefer to print each and every item I may be required to prove ahead of time. I can get easily frustrated if asked questions by authorities and easily flustered when trying to locate and retrieve the correct information on my phone; much easier for me to hand them a piece of paper...I am old fashioned.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

There was a news story here in Australia recently about a young man who arrived in one advanced western country and was refused entry and returned immediately to Australia,

I thought you were going to tell the story about the other Australian sent home because his onward ticket didn't go far enough. It was only to a neighboring country. He was not able to get a phone or internet connection to buy a qualifying ticket before being locked up for a day and then deported.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

In addition, I was shocked when a forum friend from the US posted this last April...

"I don’t know about France, but I flew into Madrid yesterday from Chicago, and they wouldn’t let me board until I made a return reservation or had a visa. I stood there making a reservation on my phone. It’s hard to argue with them when the plane is going to take off soon!"

 

[Former member 49149]

I just realised this question applies to me...
I used my UK passport ( I have not yet got my Irish one, that will be seen to when I get home to Dublin) and the only difference in Bilbao, where I landed, was a stamp in the passport. I have not had one of those for years. I guess I will get another one when I leave early August...

 

[Bristle Boy]

I just realised this question applies to me...
I used my UK passport ( I have not yet got my Irish one, that will be seen to when I get home to Dublin) and the only difference in Bilbao, where I landed, was a stamp in the passport. I have not had one of those for years. I guess I will get another one when I leave early August...

And now your passport (at least your UK one) will bring back happy memories and tell a story...much like the credencial.

 

[JabbaPapa]

If you walk across the border you need provide none of these things, and to be honest, only a troublemaker would likely be importuned by such requirement inside the country.

One particular exception would be a UK pilgrim seeking to travel by air to elsewhere in the EU at the end of his Camino, without having had his passport stamped near Roncesvalles, in the scenario where he had residency papers from no EU country.

But from what I have read today, a typical pilgrim would need only to provide proof of access to €750, rather than the full amounts expected of someone renting or purchasing accommodation in the country.

 

[henrythedog]

Nothing needs to be dangerous as long as people act like adults in the room.
Every country you enter requires , if asked, that you have sufficient funds to support yourself for the duration of your stay. This just makes sense.

It is unfortunate to see the Brexit issue still rearing its ugly head.i would have thought by now that this would have been consigned to Twitter, where it belongs, and off the Camino forum where it doesn't.
Like any divorce there are faults on both sides. Nobody is perfect and once divorced it is up to both to make things work for the sake of the children and for a little harmony to prevail.
To rely on the media (and to quote) because it suits an entrenched view is for the gullible unable to see the bias and lack of facts which are only there to sell the product and to appeal to a like-minded readership/consumer.

There are times that I am reminded of the Dickensian character Miss Haversham, still refusing to take off her wedding dress after being jilted at the altar.

Asked in 2016 what the matter is...and she is still going.

It was the best of times...it was the worst of times.

I’ll see your Dickens and raise you a ‘Bleak House’ in which appears Jarndyce vs Jarndyce; the probate case which lasts so long that no one can remember the basis of the suit and all the money is consumed by lawyers’ fees.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Seems we've swung full circle. I remember my first visit to Spain in 1964 when my parents were warned to make sure we got our ENTRADA stamp on the family passport otherwise we could not get a SALIDA stamp to leave.
Now, of course, I would welcome an enforced stay in Spain!

 

[Jeff Crawley]

I just realised this question applies to me...
I used my UK passport ( I have not yet got my Irish one, that will be seen to when I get home to Dublin) and the only difference in Bilbao, where I landed, was a stamp in the passport. I have not had one of those for years. I guess I will get another one when I leave early August...

Still (emerald) green with envy

 

[JabbaPapa]

We are entering dangerous forum territory now.

Quite so.

Though I cannot shake the impression that after a number of years, the UK/France border crossing by ferry will just return to what it used to be, pre-Schengen, and that the advice will return to being "insist on getting a stamp upon arrival in Calais". Except for some short trips, this used to be an essential precaution !!

 

[Corned Beef]

Best to read the official guidance and not whatever the "clickbait media" wants to peddle. Journalism seems to have taken a dive off the deep end in the last 10 years.

From the FO pages

 

[Bristle Boy]

Best to read the official guidance and not whatever the "clickbait media" wants to peddle. Journalism seems to have taken a dive off the deep end in the last 10 years.

From the FO pages

It never pays to get your information from the "clickbait media" least of all republish on this or any other site. To do so risks hypocritical gullibility.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It never pays to get your information from the "clickbait media" least of all republish on this or any other site. To do so risks hypocritical gullibility.

It was from some press release or other, not clickbait, though I have been suffering from precursor to sunstroke, so cannot tell you where. Thank you for the "hypocritical" word.

The amounts that Kathar1na mentions concern those wishing to live in Spain for some months or longer, unemployed, not simple holidaymakers.

And no, that is not spelled out in the texts, as that would make them illegal.

My point about ordinary activities and troublemaking stands, as anybody familiar with Spain should realise.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

The amounts that Kathar1na mentions concern those wishing to live in Spain for some months or longer, unemployed, not simple holidaymakers.

Yes, it seems applying for a visa is much more scrutinized than those visitors entering Spain (or elsewhere in the EU) for a much shorter vacation.

 

[JabbaPapa]

They are the amounts that are the topic of this thread and of the first post.

Please let's not have this same argument all over again, I am on the Camino and that's quite enough for me to be worrying about for the time being.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Please let's not have this same argument all over again, I am on the Camino and that's quite enough for me to be worrying about for the time being.

Just wishing you a buen camino Jabba...you deserve it.

 

[Kathor1]

Please let's not have this same argument all over again, I am on the Camino and that's quite enough for me to be worrying about for the time being.

Really, it does not matter to me one way or the other. I’ve zapped my two recent posts with the info about the reference amounts.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I’ll see your Dickens and raise you a ‘Bleak House’ in which appears Jarndyce vs Jarndyce; the probate case which lasts so long that no one can remember the basis of the suit and all the money is consumed by lawyers’ fees.

And there was I harnessing my inner Charles Dickens whilst others elsewhere harness their inner Jane Austen

 

[Former member 102963]

Maybe as kinda closure… Just to advise this story is getting ‘major play’ in the English media today. Last weekend was about ports and France and this weekend it’s about airports and Spain as it’s the busiest weekend for departures of the year?Connoisseurs of the UK media can probably guess how it’s being positioned by some of the outlets!!

 

[VNwalking]

Just wishing you a buen camino Jabba...you deserve it.

Participation in these more heated discussions while on the camino is completely optional.
The best way to have a buen camino is to tune out of such things.
So buen camino, @ Jabbapapa - please feel free to ignore us over here.

only a troublemaker would likely be importuned by such requirement inside the country.

My point about ordinary activities and troublemaking stands, as anybody familiar with Spain should realise.

Well, 99% of the time. But as posts here have confirmed, you can be totally innocent and not in any way a troublemaker to run afoul of authorities. Sometimes it's ignorance on the part of the traveler, sometimes it's bloody-mindedness or even bullying on the part of the official, sometimes both at the same time - as in the case the @Kanga mentioned. If those guys were half human, they would have found a way to allow the traveler to prove his story, rather than being rigid bureaucrats and just sending him home.

There was a news story here in Australia recently about a young man who arrived in one advanced western country and was refused entry and returned immediately to Australia, despite actually meeting all the requirements. His problem was that he was not able to prove it - all his information was on his mobile phone (with an Australian SIM card) and while he was being interrogated by the customs officer he could not access that information because his phone would not connect to the local network or wifi. He could not even make a telephone call, and the customs officer was not prepared to allow him to use someone else's phone.

much easier for me to hand them a piece of paper...I am old fashioned.

That's just smart. Fumbling on your phone with a long immigration queue behind you makes everyone ill-disposed to treat you kindly.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I have two passports and there used to be some value for me to keep renewing my UK passport but now that it no longer gives me any advantage in entering Europe I may as well save some money and let it expire.

This also simplifies things and will mean that I am not hassled by Swiss border staff when showing them my ANZ passport and them getting upset because it didn't contain an entry stamp.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Participation in these more heated discussions while on the camino is completely optional.
The best way to have a buen camino is to tune out of such things.
So buen camino, @ Jabbapapa - please feel free to ignore us over here.




Well, 99% of the time. But as posts here have confirmed, you can be totally innocent and not in any way a troublemaker to run afoul of authorities. Sometimes it's ignorance on the part of the traveler, sometimes it's bloody-mindedness or even bullying on the part of the official, sometimes both at the same time - as in the case the @Kanga mentioned. If those guys were half human, they would have found a way to allow the traveler to prove his story, rather than being rigid bureaucrats and just sending him home.



That's just smart. Fumbling on your phone with a long immigration queue behind you makes everyone ill-disposed to treat you kindly.

Ho hum.
If needed to reply to someone saying Buen Camino then you are going to be a busy little beaver.
And to all those on the camino at present (and in the future) after the hellish few years we have encountered let me extend, my second sentence with an unqualified....You do deserve it,

 

[Bristle Boy]

I’ll see your Dickens and raise you a ‘Bleak House’ in which appears Jarndyce vs Jarndyce; the probate case which lasts so long that no one can remember the basis of the suit and all the money is consumed by lawyers’ fees.

And far be it for me to have the temerity to correct such a sage and worthy contributor to this forum and such a nice dog but......
In the game of Dickensian poker the "full bleak house" is a hand not to be shown until the final declaration and not a raising stake.

 

[henrythedog]

And far be it for me to have the temerity to correct such a sage and worthy contributor to this forum and such a nice dog but......
In the game of Dickensian poker the "full bleak house" is a hand not to be shown until the final declaration and not a raising stake.

Mornington Crescent!

 

[Bristle Boy]

Mornington Crescent!

If you are not careful I might be tempted to cheat and behind my Dickensian whiskers I'm secreting a couple of Thackerays.

 

[Kanga]

Neither @Bristle Boy or @henrythedog are referencing Rosalia de Castro, or Lorca, so should be disregarded. This is a Camino forum.

Back to the topic please, or the thread will be shut down. It would be good to leave it open for a while to see if anyone reports a relevant current experience.

 

[Purple Backpack]

The only time we've needed proof of income is when my kids studied abroad in Ireland and Italy for student visas. Even then, it was only a copy of a bank statement in their name for whatever the amount was required for those countries.

 

[chinacat]

Maybe as kinda closure… Just to advise this story is getting ‘major play’ in the English media today. Last weekend was about ports and France and this weekend it’s about airports and Spain as it’s the busiest weekend for departures of the year?Connoisseurs of the UK media can probably guess how it’s being positioned by some of the outlets!!

In this week’s ‘The New European‘ there is an article by a journo who queued in traffic for 7 hours, for the Eurotunnel, and whose family was processed by French border officials within 60 seconds. I’d say this was not a long-winded procedure, once they were at the border.

 

[Tincatinker]

I’m minded of the sage advice offered in legend by many of the peasantry: “if I were going there I wouldn’t start from here…”

 

[henrythedog]

I have two passports and there used to be some value for me to keep renewing my UK passport but now that it no longer gives me any advantage in entering Europe I may as well save some money and let it expire.

This also simplifies things and will mean that I am not hassled by Swiss border staff when showing them my ANZ passport and them getting upset because it didn't contain an entry stamp.

It does offer an advantage. There is no centralised EU system for recording those who enter and leave. They rely on the physical stamps in your passport. There is categorically no EU system which knows that DoughnutANZ with a NZ passport is the same DoughnutANZ with a UK passport. You could then easily bypass the 90/180 rule.

I’ve just given up my third UK passport (leaving me with two) which has have allowed me to do just that - I had three for decades when I was working, going back to the days when having a South African stamp was an issue in some countries and when you simply couldn’t have an Israeli and Saudi stamp in the same passport and when visa applications could take weeks.

I had a friend who was a ‘queens messenger’ (a diplomatic bag-carrier really) who had six concurrent UK passports.

For the cost, personally, I’d keep it. You just never know.

 

[Albertagirl]

I am aware that British citizens no longer have the same travel status as EU citizens, but the lack of a return ticket for someone from Britain still makes practical sense to me. Travel to and from the EU for British residents is so cheap, compared to travel to and from Canada, for example, that British citizens may put off buying a return ticket if they are not sure of their return date, without risking a large expense for the purchase of a last-minute fare. I have been keeping my eye on my own air tickets, as my booking has, so far, been changed five times by Air Canada and now gives me an official 88 days in the EU. I am hoping not to get sick shortly before my return date, as I have very little leeway.

 

[dougfitz]

This also simplifies things and will mean that I am not hassled by Swiss border staff when showing them my ANZ passport and them getting upset because it didn't contain an entry stamp.

Was this post-Brexit?

 

[Marbe2]

I have been to Europe many, many times and traveled directly into Spain 7 times and I have never been asked. In fact I can't remember a customs agent doing anything more than scanning my passport, stamping it and handing it back. Barely a mumble out of the agent. That is only my experience.

I have flown at least 60-70 times to various parts of Western Europe and I have never been asked about funds. However, I have been occasionally asked where I would be staying and how long I planned to travel. Most of the time, they check the passport and hand it back and that is it.

 

[CAJohn]

When I did the Camino Frances, I was questioned by the airline in Chicago about how I was going to get back. I was sailing back. The airline employee said that they needed something in their records because the airline can be fined by the EU and forced to fly me back if I overstay. I pointed out that I have an Irish Passport and could stay as long as I wanted. He asked if he could add the Irish passport to my file and I said fine. Dual citizens must always use their US passport on entering or leaving the US.

I have been questioned in both Ireland and Great Britain when I have entered with my US passport. They wanted to know the purpose of the trip, where I would be staying etc. The English guy corrected the pronunciation of the town that my ship was going to be sailing from. I was not asked about my finances. I have also been asked by German and French border agents about my plans in the country. I always am allowed to enter. It is hilarious in Ireland, since I have a quintessentially Irish name (first, middle and last) with tons of relatives in Ireland.

I have watched passengers from Eastern European non-EU countries get grilled in front of me about their plans, and they were most certainly required to provide proof of income. I moved to another line, because I knew that was going to take forever.

When my kid did a semester in Japan, I had to provide the Japanese government proof about my financial ability to support my son in Japan and get him home after his studies. This was all required to get the visa.

So, none of this is new, but probably not a big deal unless you are a citizen coming from a country that has a history of overstaying and creating financial difficulties.

 

[henrythedog]

My only issue was going the other way - UK to the US. I was sent on business, and reluctantly. Many years ago.

Arriving at O’Hare I was asked ‘Why do you want to enter the United States?’; to which I replied honestly but unadvisedly ‘I don’t; I’ve been sent’.

Three hours later; after being searched more thoroughly than my last prostate examination I was released. Not into the US; but to the back of the immigration queue with advice to take the time to rethink my answer.

Never assume any sense of humour at immigration.

It was just after that that I tripped and fell on the drug-dog, which I’m sure I have related previously.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Arriving at O’Hare I was asked ‘Why do you want to enter the United States?’; to which I replied honestly but unadvisedly ‘I don’t; I’ve been sent’

Well, that's what you get for being a bit of a smart aleck, even if being truthful, Henry's owner. I do, however, appreciate your humor when you add it to some of your posts.

 

[Former member 102963]

It does offer an advantage. There is no centralised EU system for recording those who enter and leave. They rely on the physical stamps in your passport. There is categorically no EU system which knows that DoughnutANZ with a NZ passport is the same DoughnutANZ with a UK passport. You could then easily bypass the 90/180 rule.

I’ve just given up my third UK passport (leaving me with two) which has have allowed me to do just that - I had three for decades when I was working, going back to the days when having a South African stamp was an issue in some countries and when you simply couldn’t have an Israeli and Saudi stamp in the same passport and when visa applications could take weeks.

I had a friend who was a ‘queens messenger’ (a diplomatic bag-carrier really) who had six concurrent UK passports.

For the cost, personally, I’d keep it. You just never know.

great post @henrythedog . I also have multi UK passports (2 in my case!) which I got as I did a lot of work travel to places where visas are required. I also have an Irish one which is recent. The two UK ones really helped as I do a lot of personal travel! For example, I went by train(s) from London to Beijing once which required 4 visas so passport was away for a month which would have been a real issue! So I would endorse your view that to have a second passport can be very useful!

Thank you for you insight into the EU passport system. that quite surprised me!!








as req

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Arriving at O’Hare I was asked ‘Why do you want to enter the United States?’; to which I replied honestly but unadvisedly ‘I don’t; I’ve been sent’.

Three hours later; after being searched ...

It was just after that that I tripped and fell on the drug-dog, which I’m sure I have related previously.

Please continue the story. How long after all that was it until you got your diplomatic passport?

 

[VNwalking]

Never assume any sense of humour at immigration.

Absolutely. These people are serious, and seem to take it as a mark of disrespect if you are not.

 

[Albertagirl]

I tripped and fell on the drug-dog

I have been searched by the drug dog at the Calgary airport, which was thorough in its interest in me, less so in my luggage. I don't think that I have checked any luggage since. I now prefer not to wait for luggage delivery.

 

[henrythedog]

Please continue the story. How long after all that was it until you got your diplomatic passport?

I haven’t a diplomatic bone in my body!

To clarify, a little, if one travels constantly the several months which it can take to renew a passport or the several weeks to be granted a visa or, historically, the presence of one stamp in a passport being an issue in another country; permit multiple passports (at least, in the UK) . Specifically these are not ‘copies’ of a passport; they are totally separate travel documents - thus, the EU for example, do not know that my two passports are owned by the same person.

Anyway - the drug dog.

After a long day of international flight, extended immigration; missing baggage and generally short temper; whilst trying to exit O’Hare I stumbled on a down-escalator and fell on a drug-dog. It was a spaniel and its owner was tall and mirror-shaded. And armed.

Within seconds sufficient men-with-guns arrived to have invaded a small African country.

I’ve had better days.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I haven’t a diplomatic bone in my body!

To clarify, a little, if one travels constantly the several months which it can take to renew a passport or the several weeks to be granted a visa or, historically, the presence of one stamp in a passport being an issue in another country; permit multiple passports (at least, in the UK) . Specifically these are not ‘copies’ of a passport; they are totally separate travel documents - thus, the EU for example, do not know that my two passports are owned by the same person.

Anyway - the drug dog.

After a long day of international flight, extended immigration; missing baggage and generally short temper; whilst trying to exit O’Hare I stumbled on a down-escalator and fell on a drug-dog. It was a spaniel and its owner was tall and mirror-shaded. And armed.

Within seconds sufficient men-with-guns arrived to have invaded a small African country.

I’ve had better days.

I think that I have also told my Swiss border story before but in a similar vein and to complete my prior post on this thread.

Some years ago I attended a conference in Corfu and then went on to visit a friend in Portugal.

My return to ANZ entailed a bus journey from Vila Real to Oporto, a flight from Oporto to Lisbon where I picked up my international flight that went from Lisbon, Zurich, Dubái, Bali, Melbourne to Auckland! Around 43 hours counting the delay in Dubai.

Anyway, I entered Greece using my UK passport and it wasn't stamped. In Lisbon, on my return, I duly presented my UK passport to the Emirates check in. After studying it hard I was told that I could not board the flight because I didn't have a Visa for ANZ and so I whipped out my ANZ passport to show that I didn't need a visa and got told off for presenting my UK passport and was told to use my ANZ one. No problem.

My friends in Portugal had loaded me up with presents when I left including half a dozen bottles of expensive Port. I told my friends that this would be a problem for me when I got home, paying the duty and so I convinced them to help me drink two of them before I left (not the same day).

This helped a little but still represented quite a bit of extra weight and I didn't want to pay excess baggage charges and knowing that it would be Winter when I got back to ANZ I put on lots of layers of clothes with a long overcoat on last to cover everything.

It also helps to know that I have a darkisk complexion and a long beard.

So, I get to immigration in Zurich (exit from Schengen) and hand over my ANZ passport as I was told and leant on the counter as I waited for the officer to examine my passport.

I see him going through it page by page, twice, and then he looks up at me and asks me when I entered Schengen. I tell him 5 weeks prior and he asks me where I entered and I tell him Athens. He again looks through my passport and I can see from his facial expression that something is definitely wrong.

I finally click that he has been looking for my entry stamp and so just as he starts looking back up at me I step back from the counter and go to put my hand inside my bulky overcoat so that I can reach my UK passport to show him.

Quick as a flash he steps back and in one movement raises his Uzi (or whatever submachine gun that he is armed with) and has it pointed at my chest with his hand on the trigger.

It is interesting how much detail one notices in such moments.

He doesn't say anything but I instinctively stop all movement with my hand mid-movement. All the other passengers behind me scatter and it is absolutely quiet.

We stand like this for a couple of seconds and then I feel the urge to break the deadlock and so in a quiet, calm and clear voice I say.

"I have dual UK and ANZ citizenship. I used my UK passport to enter Greece and that is why you can't find an entry stamp in my ANZ passport. My UK passport is inside my coat. If you will permit me to move I will put my hand into my coat and get out my UK passport. Is that okay?" Still without moving.

He looked at me for a while and then nodded but kept his gun pointed at me with his finger on the trigger. Gingerly, using only the tips of my fingers I reached into my coat and pulled out my UK passport.

At this point he relaxed, put away his gun and motioned me forward. I gave him my passport and after examining it he handed it back and said "it would have been much easier if you had given me this passport to start with".

I did eventually get home although I had another run in with Australian border control but that didn't involve anyone pointing a gun at me from 3 metres away and so was merely annoying.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

'Rarely' is right, but it really matters if you happen to be one of the rare cases of official scrutiny. So it pays to be prepared.

"Scare mongering, don't worry about it" based on the experience of one trip is totally misleading.
In May this year I was pulled off a train between Switzerland and Italy - and can tell you from very unpleasant experience (and later stories from others) that there are border officials who certainly do have time for such things.

Why in the world were you pulled off of a train between Italy and Switzerland? And how? Did the conductor call the authorities on you? I’m pretty sure Switzerland and Italy are both part of the Schengen zone so there would be no border checks? Apparently not fading into the background…., ha!

I know of one person, an American friend who was refused entry, actually to the UK. He had no return ticket , and was probably looking like a punk rocker back in those days. They sent him back to New York. The airline probably should’ve never let him board….

I think all that fine print is just to give the border/passport control people some regulations they can rely on if they feel uncomfortable with someone. It’s rarely enforced.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Wow, @DoughnutANZ, this reads like something that happens in an action movie or a novel.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Wow, @DoughnutANZ, this reads like something that happens in an action movie or a novel.

It is amazing (to me) how large the barrel of a gun looks when it is pointed at you from a close distance.

 

[Kathor1]

Why in the world were you pulled off of a train between Italy and Switzerland? And how? Did the conductor call the authorities on you? I’m pretty sure Switzerland and Italy are both part of the Schengen zone so there would be no border checks?

I know nothing about trains between Italy and Switzerland but I have experience of spot checks / random checks on transborder trains elsewhere in Schengen. Several years ago, I was questioned (but not pulled off the train) on an international high speed train going from Brussels (Belgium) to Cologne (Germany). The team of (German) border / custom police officers board the train at the last station before the border and walk through the train while it is moving forward at full speed, checking passengers and maybe even luggage, posing questions, asking for ID. It was several years ago and I don't even remember what they asked me. I am a rather mature EU citizen and look the part if I may say so. I don't even have a beard. I have no idea why they picked me. Maybe they have a random pattern that they follow. When they pull people off the train, they do so at the first station after the border.

Reasons for spot checks/random checks: fight against terrorism; fight against money laundering; fight against smuggling of goods (beyond what is allowed to be carried by non-commercial travellers); fight against human trafficking; fight against what they call illegal secondary migration.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I know nothing about trains between Italy and Switzerland but I have experience of spot checks / random checks on transborder trains elsewhere in Schengen.

I see, so there still are border checks on trains? I’ve only done the international train travel in the EU since Schengen a few times, and I guess I just never noticed, or it didn’t happen on my train. The last time I crossed from Switzerland into Italy was in a German registered car that I was driving, And I don’t recall getting stopped at all.

 

[Lindy Loo]

As a non Schengen country resident flying to Spain thru Germany last year, it was the immigration control in Frankfurt who wanted to see my itinerary and my return ticket. Did I mention that my husband and I were going from Sarria to Santiago and then on a 10 day guided tour? And flying back through Lisbon on Tap Portugal?

He gave up after the 3rd email on my phone...all in English, of course. ;/

How did you find TAP Portugal?

 

[dbier]

Actually, liked them quite a bit. Especially the part where you can fly into Lisbon or Porto and then spend up to 72 hours before traveling on to your destination. No additional airline ticket cost.

 

[Lindy Loo]

What is this? Could I fly to Porto via a stopover in Lisbon?

 

[C clearly]

What is this? Could I fly to Porto via a stopover in Lisbon?

Probably, but the previous post was referring to special fares with stopovers in Lisbon or Madrid. This thread is about requirements for documentaition. For specific advice about airlines and routing, you'll probably get better advice if you post a new thread with your question. To do that click here and then on the orange Post Thread button at the top.

 

[Roscoe]

I never have a return ticket until near the end of my hikes as I never know exactly when I will be leaving.

I am in the same situation. After Santiago, I have no idea where I'm going. My concern is that my stay might exceed the 90 days without a visa.

 

[trecile]

I am in the same situation. After Santiago, I have no idea where I'm going. My concern is that my stay might exceed the 90 days without a visa.

Well, you just need to keep track of how long you have been in the Schengen zone and leave before 90 days.

 

[VNwalking]

My concern is that my stay might exceed the 90 days without a visa.

Don't do it - otherwise you may not be able to get into the Schengen Zone again for a while afterwards. Just make sure you keep track - immigration folks (correctly) consider that it's your responsibility to do that. It is not hard. You just need to count to 90.

Edit. I see you're from Oz. I believe there's a special visa you can apply for? Maybe do a search because I read about it here on the Forun.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Edit. I see you're from Oz. I believe there's a special visa you can apply for? Maybe do a search because I read about it here on the Forun.

See this post (the whole thread might be useful too):

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/a-stay-of-greater-than-90-days.71132/#post-948176

 

[Roscoe]

See this post (the whole thread might be useful too):

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/a-stay-of-greater-than-90-days.71132/#post-948176

My understanding was that as an Australian, I could enter the Schengen area for a maximum of 90 days, however, after reading the article you shared, it appears I can visit many countries within the area for 90 days each.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I am in the same situation. After Santiago, I have no idea where I'm going. My concern is that my stay might exceed the 90 days without a visa.

It worth remembering that the following countries are not in the Schengen zone: Ireland, UK, Romania, Bulgaria.

 

[henrythedog]

My understanding was that as an Australian, I could enter the Schengen area for a maximum of 90 days, however, after reading the article you shared, it appears I can visit many countries within the area for 90 days each.

You’ve got 90 days in any one rolling 180 day period in Schengen; without a specific visa permitting otherwise.

Whilst they overlap considerably ‘Europe’ and Schengen are not the same thing.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

My understanding was that as an Australian, I could enter the Schengen area for a maximum of 90 days, however, after reading the article you shared, it appears I can visit many countries within the area for 90 days each.

There are indeed some older agreements between individual countries that may give you this additional time.

However, it would be unwise to plan on staying longer than 90 days on the basis of an article.

If you talk to the embassies involved and you get documents supporting your plans for more than 90 days then you will probably be okay but be prepared to produce your documents when leaving because these agreements are not widely known about.

You will also need to document when you arrive and depart from specific countries.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

If you talk to the embassies involved and you get documents supporting your plans for more than 90 days then you will probably be okay but be prepared to produce your documents when leaving because these agreements are not widely known about.

Yes, you might be allowed to visit a country after your initial 90 days but there may be a requirement for a visa stamp in your passport, if you leave the country you may possibly not legally be allowed back in, the method of transportation for your entry and exit might be specified, you may have to stop for stamps at border crossings. It can be done but it may not be easy to do.

Edit: The thought just entered my mind that doing all this is similar to all the preparations that 18th and 19th century explorers had to do.

You will also need to document when you arrive and depart from specific countries.

I'll play it safe and try to have some proof of where you were every day. Google Maps can be set to keep a history of your locations but I'd try for some other way too.

 

[Albertagirl]

Last fall I returned from Spain after 89 days in the country. I had originally booked for 88 days, but the numerous and inconvenient changes made by my airline, while not changing the date of return, had turned my return travel into a lengthy nightmare. With help from an airline employee, I was able to revise it from four flights to two, but my final return to Canada was a day later than I had originally planned. In the future, I intend to give myself a few more days to play with on my return, allowing for changes before the 90 day limit. Whatever your plans, leave space for last minute changes to avoid breeching the legal conditions of the country or countries where you are travelling and possibly being refused entry in the future.