Re: Current Lunch Prices

[CWBuff]

@Victoria65 - so.... are you still walking the Camino? Back and forth? Like Forrest Gump?

 

[Opiemoore]

Why not? It's as cheap to make so an increased price is likely due to tax. If there is no extra tax on the beer then the cost should reflect the production cost.

Greetings all!

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Greetings all!

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.

What an excellent question, I have no idea! I've always thought of wine costing far more than water - Spain maybe the exception to the rule .

I guess it may depend in part on how big the bottle was. A 500 ml bottle I would say definitely not, if it was a one and a quarter litre - ???

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Greetings all!

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.

I would always take the water with me. They are not going to give someone else an opened bottle of water. It will probably just go to waste if you leave it.

 

[MikeyC]

As if the authors want applause for having achieved some miraculous feat beyond mere mortals like their readers....

As I am prone to the odd blister or two (hence I now routinely wear sandals) I'm in the market for some miraculous feet.

 

[pjacobi]

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

 

[SabsP]

Greetings all!

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.

Not a faux pas at all!

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

I do try and always respond in a reasonable manner to everybody but your clinging to this unreasonable theme and the rubbish contained in your responses is unbelievable!
I'm only bothering to speak out because I would hate it if somebody actually began to think that your 'advice' was correct. It is not.
I have 40 years travel experience, including throughout Asia, America, Canada, Russia, Africa and much of Europe. (The list of European countries I haven't been to is significantly shorter than the list of countries that I have). And the first time I've ever come across the custom originally referred to in this thread ( re: wine) was last year in Spain. Therefore it is not unreasonable of @Opiemoore to question the situation re-water, and as I've only been in Spain twice I myself would not give a categorical answer to the question.

I would most definitely not describe the custom with regards to wine as typical, let alone proper European dining etiquette. So what you're suggesting is complete, total, and absolute rubbish, and you very clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Alternatively you are spouting this nonsense purely to get a reaction such as I have just given.

Congratulations.

 

[C clearly]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

Your are being silly and smug, and either digging in your heels or making a joke. I have been to Europe at least 20 times and I don't know what clear answer there would be.

Perhaps you could be helpful and answer the question.

 

[Kathor1]

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

I can tell you what I did as a Camino pilgrim: I either asked or said that I would take the bottle with water left in it to my room (when I had a private room) or I filled the water into my own container (when I had my backpack with me). If my own container was full and if the water was served in a glass bottle, I would just leave it (too heavy to carry); if in a plastic bottle I might have taken it - I simply don’t remember.

As to the wine included in the price of a menu del peregrino, I mentioned earlier that I had never heard that it is “bad manners” to drink the whole bottle, and unless I hear this from others I don’t believe it to be true. I googled for such a rule without success. Needless to say that it is foolish to drink it all and then get sick or drunk or both. But to leave some for the bar or restaurant so that they can serve it to the next guest seems an absurd idea to me.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I couldn't help but revisit the definition of paternalism after reading Paul Jacobi's comments.

 

[Opiemoore]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

oooh, ouch!

I have TONS of previous traveling experience in Europe, thankyou very much, but the camino is the ONLY place where I have routinely been given a choice of a bottle of wine or a bottle of water along with a meal.

But hey, thanks for the ...

 

[CWBuff]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

I would think that this stubborn clinging to the very much strange notion that Paul tries to convince us of would be hilariously funny if it wasn't so persistently annoyzing.
.. WOW!!! A proper European dining etiquette...

 

[Molly Cassidy]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

Just for anyone who isn't familiar with Europe, there is no "European dining etiquette". Every country is different.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Just for anyone who isn't familiar with Europe, there is no "European dining etiquette". Every country is different.

Indeed! You will need a lots of practice trips. I reckon at least 100 per country to cover all the different regions within a country… how about the upscale versus the lower scale, the restaurants owned by folks from other countries.

Don’t come to the UK and ‘train’ in fish and chip restaurants… we eat as much Chicken Tikka Masala, and we eat it very differently!

 

[SabsP]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

Well, I can tell you about our subjective take on etiquette in this small corner of this part of Europe.
If you would tell these ideas in my local pub the reactions could be the following:

1. A derisive snort.
2. A blank stare.
3. Full laughter. And offering you a drink if you just would stop talking gibberish.

 

[CWBuff]

Well, I can tell you about our subjective take on etiquette in this small corner of this part of Europe.
If you would tell these ideas in my local pub the reactions could be the following:

1. A derisive snort.
2. A blank stare.
3. Full laughter. And offering you a drink if you just would stop talking gibberish.

What? No waffles?

 

[Barbara]

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

Not again! I think everyone learns basic table manners as a child, which is all anyone expects. I can learn any big differences in about five minutes, which leaves plenty of time for thinking about anything else I want to think about. Funnily enough, it doesn't include listening to or reading a lecture by someone who considers foreign travel either unusual or difficult. I won't ask if you have travelled elsewhere, as I don't wish to encourage you.

 

[Kathor1]

What a long thread about the "price(s)/price range for lunches on the Sarria to Santiago de Compostela route" . I hope the prices did not increase in the meantime.

@Molly Cassidy and @Opiemoore make actually a valid point: Not only is there no such thing as "the proper European dinning etiquette", there is also no "proper European tipping etiquette" and there is not even a "proper European water on the table etiquette".

My European dining experience may not be as vast as @pjacobi 's but what do we know. He has not shared what the pilgrim must do with the water left after having consumed a pilgrim's menu. I've dined in restaurants in plus/minus 20 European countries - this must be the first time in my life that I felt compelled to count them . Spain is unique among them: It is the only country where I noticed that it is common to include "water or wine" in a set menu that does not cost a lot. No prior European travel experience will prepare you for this.

There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where a jug of tap water is put on your table, whether you asked for it or not. There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where you must order and pay for a bottle of mineral water if you want water with your meal and you can chose the volume, ranging from "a small bottle" to 500 ml or 1 l. Oh, and there are Europeans on a European travel experience who whine endlessly about the fact that they have to pay when they want to have water with their meal in a European restaurant because that's not what they are used to in their European home country. Or who complain about their fellow Europeans because they habitually order bottled water with their restaurant meal when tap water would be good enough for everybody as everybody knows.

We are such a diverse lot.

 

[SabsP]

What? No waffles?

Believe it or not but" gewaffel" in our dialect means " gewauwel " or talking nonsense .

 

[Pafayac]

Unopened bottles? Full open bottles? Half full open bottles?

It depends:
- if you are pessimistic, half empty open bottles.
- if you are optimistic, half full open bottles.

 

[Kathor1]

It depends:
- if you are pessimistic, half empty open bottles.
- if you are optimistic, half full open bottles.

The comment you quote was made ages ago. All the bottles of pilgrim's menu wine have been emptied in the meantime. Whether by the pilgrim or the staff of the bar or restaurant is not known.

 

[Kathor1]

Believe it or not but gewaffel in our dialect means gewauwel or talking nonsense .

Reminds me of waffle and piffle in English (BE).

 

[dick bird]

There is a lot wrong with this post, not least the assumption that what is correct etiquette in one European country must also be correct in another.

If you had previous travel experience in Europe, you would have already learned the proper European dinning etiquette. That leaves more time to think about the Camino.


-Paul

 

[Molly Cassidy]

What a long thread about the "price(s)/price range for lunches on the Sarria to Santiago de Compostela route" . I hope the prices did not increase in the meantime.

@Molly Cassidy and @Opiemoore make actually a valid point: Not only is there no such thing as "the proper European dinning etiquette", there is also no "proper European tipping etiquette" and there is not even a "proper European water on the table etiquette".

My European dining experience may not be as vast as @pjacobi 's but what do we know. He has not shared what the pilgrim must do with the water left after having consumed a pilgrim's menu. I've dined in restaurants in plus/minus 20 European countries - this must be the first time in my life that I felt compelled to count them . Spain is unique among them: It is the only country where I noticed that it is common to include "water or wine" in a set menu that does not cost a lot. No prior European travel experience will prepare you for this.

There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where a jug of tap water is put on your table, whether you asked for it or not. There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where you must order and pay for a bottle of mineral water if you want water with your meal and you can chose the volume, ranging from "a small bottle" to 500 ml or 1 l. Oh, and there are Europeans on a European travel experience who whine endlessly about the fact that they have to pay when they want to have water with their meal in a European restaurant because that's not what they are used to in their European home country. Or who complain about their fellow Europeans because they habitually order bottled water with their restaurant meal when tap water would be good enough for everybody as everybody knows.

We are such a diverse lot.

And in some countries you may be brought a bottle of water when you sit down without asking for it. If you drink the water you will pay for it. If you choose not to drink it you don't pay for it.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Well we've talked long enough about the water and the wine ( but not yet water into wine), probably time to talk about the bread.....

 

[CWBuff]

Believe it or not but gewaffel in our dialect means gewauwel or talking nonsense .

Seems we've been served a lot of that lately, albeit with "the proper European dinning etiquette"

 

[dick bird]

Greetings all!

I’ve been watching this thread and now wondering if I made a faux pas?

Not much of a wine drinker, so when the pilgrim meals offered it, I chose water. It wound up being a new (sealed) bottle of water every time, so when the meal was over, I took the bottle with me. Should I have left it?

Everybody else at the table was drinking wine.

You could ask. I am 100% sure they’ll say yes. I wouldn’t try it on with the wine though.

 

[trecile]

There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where a jug of tap water is put on your table, whether you asked for it or not. There are European countries, or restaurants in European countries, where you must order and pay for a bottle of mineral water if you want water with your meal and you can chose the volume, ranging from "a small bottle" to 500 ml or 1 l. Oh, and there are Europeans on a European travel experience who whine endlessly about the fact that they have to pay when they want to have water with their meal in a European restaurant because that's not what they are used to in their European home country. Or who complain about their fellow Europeans because they habitually order bottled water with their restaurant meal when tap water would be good enough

I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.

Well we've talked long enough about the water and the wine ( but not yet water into wine), probably time to talk about the bread.....

If you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.

 

[Pafayac]

I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.

In France this is also mandatory.
If the waiter asks you "Plate ou gazeuse ?", answer "carafe !". It is the way to get free water.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.

Not sure about this in Greece. Usually they will bring tap water if you ask. Some places will bring tap water (or spring water) by default. Some islands have no fresh water, so bottled water is the only option.

However, the price of bottled water (0.5l and 1.5l bottles) is regulated, so you shouldn't pay more than 50c for a small bottle or €1 for a big bottle. Mind you, some restaurants deliberately only stock other non-regulated bottle sizes, so they can charge more.

 

[dick bird]

If it is a menú, bottled water is a choice of drink so not charged extra. Otherwise you can ask for ‘agua de grifa’ - tap water. What intrigues me is that red wine is included, but if you have white wine with a menú, they charge for it.

 

[trecile]

What intrigues me is that red wine is included, but if you have white wine with a menú, they charge for it.

I usually go for the red wine, but have had white included with the menú.

 

[Kathor1]

I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.

I checked online for Germany. Below is the link to one of many similar articles. Restaurants are not obliged by law to serve free tap water if requested. In general, they are also reluctant to do so when a guest asks for it. Some restaurants (the article mentions restaurants owned by celebrity chefs and by an actor) have started to charge for tap water - and at a relatively high price like 4 € for one litre. On average, one litre of tap water as such costs apparently 0,20 € in Germany. The article mentions that French law obliges restaurants to serve tap water for free.

Leitungswasser im Restaurant - wo liegt das Problem?

Auf die Bitte um Leitungswasser reagieren Gastronomen meist verschnupft - und servieren lieber teures Mineralwasser. Warum eigentlich?

www.sueddeutsche.de

 

[pjacobi]

Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy. Even the beer drinking Germans mostly drink wine with dinner. Many Europeans prefer sparking water so that why the water must be bottled. Each country has their own customs but there are many similarities.

Order a Diet Coke with your meal in a French restaurant and the waiter will have a heart attack!


-Paul

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

I have a question about this. I have read that by law, Spanish restaurants must serve you (free) tap water if requested. What are the rules in other European countries? I really don't like having to buy bottled water.


If you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.

Not true if you order a menu do dia. It will always include the couvert which is bread, olives, and sometimes butter. If you order a la carte, the couvert, covering the same, will likely be billed at a euro or two, on top of the cost of your other choices.

In tourist-type restaurants, they will often put a platter of fish pates, sometimes cheese, sometimes other appetizers, on the table at the start. If you eat them, you will be charged. If at the beginning of the meal, you make it clear youre not interested in them, they will take them away and not charge you. Complaints from tourists about this practice are everywhere in comments re Portuguese tourism. Almost every tourist guidebook I have read warns you about it. Another case where knowing a bit about local practices in advance (maybe by reading a book or onlne comments) can prevent this kind of surprise!

This practice is not very common in economical, not-tourist cafes and restaurants--it happens occasionally in fancier ones--the Portuguese understand it and like these starters, sometimes, and are prepared to pay extra for them if they do. Definitely the tourist restaurants will capitalize on the fact that many tourists get "caught out" at least once. Be warned.

 

[SabsP]

Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy. Even the beer drinking Germans mostly drink wine with dinner. Many Europeans prefer sparking water so that why the water must be bottled. Each country has their own customs but there are many similarities.

Order a Diet Coke with your meal in a French restaurant and the waiter will have a heart attack!


-Paul

Au contraire, mon ami. This means : on the contrary, my friend.
A soda/ coke as your main beverage is perfectly ok in all those countries you mention.
It might be different in a top resto , genre Michelin, but then you go for the total experience with foodpairing.
Simpler places and brasseries : totally ok with soda!
Living in Belgium myself which is culinary perfectly balanced between Germany and France! And I have enough knowledge of different restos in all the neighbouring countries.
Just texted an Italian friend and she confirmed that ordering a coke or lemonade in a trattoria is perfectly ok.
Afterall some people do not drink alcohol by choice and do want other options than water.

Btw , when I order water in a resto here it is always still and in a sealed bottle.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

Au contraire, mon ami. This means : on the contrary, my friend.
A soda/ coke as your main beverage is perfectly ok in all those countries you mention.
It might be different in a top resto , genre Michelin, but then you go for the total experience with foodpairing.
Simpler places and brasseries : totally ok with soda!
Living in Belgium myself which is culinary perfectly balanced between Germany and France! And I have enough knowledge of different restos in all the neighbouring countries.
Just texted an Italian friend and she confirmed that ordering a coke or limonade in a trattoria is perfectly ok.
Afterall some people do not drink alcohol by choice and do want other options than water.

Btw , when I order water in a resto here it is always still and in a sealed bottle.

In Portugal, tap water is not commonly drunk at meals away from home. I get the feeling the sentiment is, if you can afford to eat in a restaurant, you're affluent enough to pay for bottled water (though I'm inferring this just from the fact that noone ever offers it as a choice, and eating in a restaurant is definitely considered a bit of a luxury--and of course, if you're a tourist--including being a peregrino--you're by definition, better off that the person working in the restaurant. This may not be true, but from their perspective, it almost certainly is!)

Usually, a server will say, "Para bebida?" (To drink?) when you order at a restaurant. Choices will typically be beer, wine, soda or water (agua). If you say "agua," the usual response will be "con gaz?" (bubbly) or "sem gaz?" (still). Then you will be asked (sometimes) "fresca" or "natural?" This I always get wrong. Fresca (fresh) means cooled; natural means room temperature. Whichever option you choose, you will pay for it. Typically little 250 ml. bottles if just you; 1 litre bottle if it looks like 2 or more people will share it.

Bottled water is about the same price as sodas; typically slightly more than a local beer or a glass of wine. Go figure!

These are comments on what is typical in Portugal, in local restaurants/cafes--the ones typically sought out by peregrinos and other less-affluent tourists. I suspect Spain is similar, but haven't spent enough time there to be sure.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Here in Greece, you can drink what you want. Nobody cares. Beer, wine, water, coke. Anything else you fancy.

 

[tammi]

I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.
Q
I suggest taking one or more training trips, starting in the UK where there is little language barrier, then move on to the continent. Between trips, you can train at home with a backpack and learn to walk long distances. All this training will result in a much better Camino experience.

As an analogy, Calculus is much more difficult to understand if you don't have a solid background in the mathematical prerequisites.


-Paul

My first, second, and upcoming third trips to Europe have all been to walk the Camino.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

you're in Portugal they will bring you bread, but it's not free! Eat one piece and you will be no charged. Same with olives and other things they may bring to the table before the meal.

Oh dear I had to start it didn't I! I thought that we were all familiar with this hence my jocular reference. It was supposed to be a pun, sorry!

Yes, it's quite common and we've actually discussed this on the forum before. This custom varies a little from country to country. Bread, sometimes olives or other such things are often bought, and in some countries are actually charged (Cover charge) regardless as to whether or not you eat it.

I forget exactly how many countries I've experienced this in, however definitely in
Italy, Greece and Portugal, a few times in nicer restaurants in Spain. It is one of those things that can cause upset between restaurants and foreign tourists when the tourists go "but I didn't even touch it I'm not paying for it! "

Technically the cover charge (Kover/couvert/ coperto - literally meaning 'covered' I believe) is a charge for the table linen, tableware, and bread - though there sometimes won't even be bread! I'm told in Italy it's charged regardless as to whether or not you eat, so if you sit, you pay.

It can get particularly tricky in Portugal, and here I quote from the internet:

"Some menus state the couvert cost per person while others have it per item (for example, per cheese). So bear in mind that if the couvert is charged per person, if one person on the table has something, everyone gets charged for it – regardless of whether they had something or not."

I have had direct experience of the latter, whilst it was a surprise it wasn't expensive, and it was clearly spelled out in the menu when we double checked.
In Portugal it can be an excellent way to try some of the local cheeses for a very reasonable cost, I've also been served a small octopus salad - absolutely delicious and I think only three or four euros, incredible value. In another I got a cheese board which also included pickles olives and pâte, absolutely delicious and just €4/5 .

If it is a menú, bottled water is a choice of drink so not charged extra. Otherwise you can ask for ‘agua de grifa’ - tap water. What intrigues me is that red wine is included, but if you have white wine with a menú, they charge for it.

On the handful of occasions I had a pilgrims menu I always got white wine if I asked for it at no additional charge. Served in a carafe or an unmarked bottle.

 

[CWBuff]

As per above @tammi post:

pjacobi said:
My first, second, and upcoming third trips to Europe have all been to walk the Camino.

DANG. if only he really said that. It would be simply hilarious because by default he'd be on Camino on the 1st trip to Europe which would negate aboout 1/2 of this thread......
But I think it is @tammi who says it....
Oh Well...

Now ... Au contraire,.... I have to decide if I want to drink Eau Diet Coke with my dinner or Eau Cointreau

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Cointreau with dinner? Afterwards I understand but with?

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Cointreau with dinner? Afterwards I understand but with?

I prefer it in my coffee!

 

[Bob008]

In tourist-type restaurants, they will often put a platter of fish pates, sometimes cheese, sometimes other appetizers, on the table at the start. If you eat them, you will be charged. If at the beginning of the meal, you make it clear youre not interested in them, they will take them away and not charge you.

I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.

It will just be put to one side and served to the next client. The regulations are very, very different.

 

[jsalt]

But to leave some for the bar or restaurant so that they can serve it to the next guest seems an absurd idea to me.

I agree that would never happen where I live. But several times, in Spain, as a lone diner, after ordering the cheap menu del dia a half empty bottle of wine has been plonked on the table in front of me . . .

 

[CWBuff]

Cointreau with dinner? Afterwards I understand but with?

call me au Barbarian! I admittedly can drink cognac with my dinner and have no problem. Probably would give a French waiter a heart attack faster than asking for Diet Coke and technically going against not only the European dinner etiquette but Polar Penguins as well but heck - its MY CAMINO!
(Fading into a sunset whistling the theme from Le pont sur la rivière Kwaï)

 

[Barbara]

Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy. Even the beer drinking Germans mostly drink wine with dinner. Many Europeans prefer sparking water so that why the water must be bottled. Each country has their own customs but there are many similarities.

Order a Diet Coke with your meal in a French restaurant and the waiter will have a heart attack!


-Paul

Sorry, wrong again. The French drink what they want and waiters don't have heart attacks if your choice is unusual. Either bottled or tap water is normal and wine is of course another option. You really don't know much about France, less than I do, but then I've only lived here for thirty five years.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

I'm a little puzzled about this practice. After the appetizers are taken away, what do the restaurants do with that food? Do they throw away? Serve to another table? In the US, the health codes suggest that once the food is put on a table, that food cannot go to another table for a different customer.

The fish pastes and butter are always packaged (plastic or tiny tins). If you open them, they're yours. But if still sealed, they can definitely be redirected.

As for sliced cheese, I don't think any such rule must exist in Portugal; I've many times seen the small plates of cheese, usually with toothpicks on each slice so you don't have to touch them en route to mouth, go back in the cooler for next target table. The rule must say, if someone at the table touches it, it can't go back.

Olives--no one cares. The assumption is that everyone wants bread and olives prior to their meal; and they're so cheap that no-one really cares about their being wasted. Olives are so ubiquitous in bars, cafes, and restaurants--I can't think what would be the North American equivalent--ketchup, maybe? Same with bread, in most cases. Ordinary bread and buns are ridiculously cheap by North American standards. Baked every morning, with no preservatives added, so stale quickly.

 

[CWBuff]

ed. Olives are so ubiquitous in bars, cafes, and restaurants--I can't think what would be the North American equivalent--ketchup, maybe?

Peanuts

 

[David Tallan]

Au contraire, mon ami. This means : on the contrary, my friend.
A soda/ coke as your main beverage is perfectly ok in all those countries you mention.
It might be different in a top resto , genre Michelin, but then you go for the total experience with foodpairing.
Simpler places and brasseries : totally ok with soda!
Living in Belgium myself which is culinary perfectly balanced between Germany and France! And I have enough knowledge of different restos in all the neighbouring countries.
Just texted an Italian friend and she confirmed that ordering a coke or lemonade in a trattoria is perfectly ok.
Afterall some people do not drink alcohol by choice and do want other options than water.

Btw , when I order water in a resto here it is always still and in a sealed bottle.

Perhaps @pjacobi needs a few more practice and research trips to Europe, never mind before attempting a Camino, but before proclaiming proper European customs.

 

[C clearly]

Bottled water or wine are the only "proper" beverages to be consumed with a meal in countries such as Spain, France and Italy.

By "proper," I assume you are talking about the stereotype of fancy restaurants that cultivate a tradition of snobbery and specific behaviour according to arbitrary and dated rules. You aren't talking about places where real European families eat. I cannot imagine that dining in the fancy places will provide any knowledge or insight that can readily be transferred to the Camino pilgrim experience.

This reminds me of a pilgrim at the communal dinner in Orisson. I'll just say he was European. The person sitting next to him (also European, sort of) offered to pour him a glass of wine from the bottle on the table. He sniffed with dismay and said something like "not with the soup." Whose behaviour was proper?

 

[SabsP]

Could it be that @pjacobi uses some trusted reference books about the Grand Tour? It might explain things .
Things have changed...

Grand Tour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.

Paul,

In looking back on your comment history (since early 2023), it seems you are rather preoccupied with the notion that one is deemed ready for a camino...only by pre-practice trips to Europe, in order to "gain travel skills". It's extremely paternalistic and off-putting. And...I also seriously question if you realize Europe is, in fact, not a monolith.

It's also tone deaf to suggest to forum members (many of them new here and seeking information) that they somehow try and squeeze a trip to "Europe" so they can "gain experience" before daring to set foot on the camino. Not everyone has that kind of budget.

Yes, you've traveled to Europe many, many times. Perhaps try dispensing your wisdom in a way that doesn't detract from the conversation, or downright insult someone.

 

[Pafayac]

By "proper," I assume you are talking about the stereotype of fancy restaurants that cultivate a tradition of snobbery and specific behaviour according to arbitrary and dated rules. You aren't talking about places where real European families eat. I cannot imagine that dining in the fancy places will provide any knowledge or insight that can readily be transferred to the Camino pilgrim experience.

Indeed, making the whole world believe that, apart from water, our french overrated wines are the only allowed beverage, is a good thing. Our wine growers need to sell their bottles...

He sniffed with dismay and said something like "not with the soup." Whose behaviour was proper?

In France it used to be not acceptable to drink anything before finishing the soup. My grandmother said in this case: "you will see clearly in your grave !"
However, please do not be shocked if you see a peasant like me finishing its soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate (when it remains warm): it is a country custom named "chabrau" (or "chabrol", "godaille" in some places...).

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

However, please do not be shocked if you see a peasant like me finishing its soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate (when it remains warm): it is a country custom named ""chabrau (or "chabrol", "godaille" in some places...).

I'd forgotten about this! Decades ago I had a French girlfriend and we visited her family for Christmas.
After several days her mother did exactly that, (chabrot). Initially the family expressed shock, she simply pointed out that I was like family and should be treated as such. Where upon everybody did the same! I'd thought they were accepting of me up till then, it was even more relaxed afterwards.

 

[Kathor1]

[wine] not with the soup

finishing [...] soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate

Thank you for this! I had not been aware of either! This makes interesting reading about table manners in Europe unlike @pjacobi's post #135 - a post that is nearly irresistible to not comment on because one wants to protest these generalising claims that just do not correspond to the everyday experience of those who have lived in European countries all their lives or at least for many years.

These examples reminded me that I come from a rural area in Europe where the daily main meal at the family table always started with soup and there was never any drink on the table. That was just the regional tradition at home - though not for a meal in a restaurant or rather a country inn when you ordered whatever you liked to drink, be it soft drinks, beer, wine, water, and even white wine mixed with sparkling water which is a tradition in this wine-growing area.

Lately, I've started to do this in a restaurant occasionally - I just say that I don't want a drink with my meal and that I will have coffee later. If it is on offer I then have what is called in French "un café gourmand". Oh, this selection of tiny tiny desserts! Oh, the ones we had in Tours on the way to Santiago ... oh, to be a pilgrim again and enjoy the gastronomic delights of every region you walk through ...

 

[Frankybaby66]

I have only been there once. Way back in another century. If I go back again I think I might take a language course in preparation. Would six months be long enough? Do Duolingo have a course in American for Brits?

Duolingo tried to put a course together, but after many months of effort, realised that there were just TOO many differences.
They decided that the the old saying that ' America and England are two nations, separated by a common language' was more accurate than they initially thought

 

[Kathor1]

They decided that the the old saying that ' America and England are two nations, separated by a common language' was more accurate than they initially though

And can you think of any differences between AE and BE that might be relevant in the context of the thread topic, i.e. originally the price of lunches on the Camino but now expanded to table manners in selected European countries? The majority of Europeans including Spaniards who know English will have been taught BE at school and if they come from a large country like Spain, France or Germany they will not have heard AE in movies because they are dubbed.

The only thing that I can think of is not to ask in a bar or restaurant where the bathroom is ... it is a question that really puzzles us Europeans. Better yet, just say "Aseos?". One of the ten or so useful words to know in Spanish. And yet another thing that you don't learn on one of Paul's Highly Recommended Pre-Camino Preparation Trips to Europe.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

And can you think of any differences between AE and BE that might be relevant in the context of lunches on the Camino? The majority of Europeans including Spaniards who know English will have been taught BE at school and if they come from a large country like Spain, France or Germany they will not have heard AE in movies because they are dubbed.

The only thing that I can think of is not to ask in a bar or restaurant where the bathroom is ... it is a question that really puzzles Europeans. Better yet, just say "Aseos?". One of the ten or so useful words to know in Spanish. And yet another thing that you don't learn on one of Paul's Highly Recommended Pre-Camino Preparation Trips to Europe.

The schoolchildren I was teaching in Spain certainly picked up American English from somewhere. Possibly netflix or similar, but there were also a lot of children from Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas.

 

[Kathor1]

The schoolchildren I was teaching in Spain certainly picked up American English from somewhere. Possibly netflix or similar,

Of course! You are right. Who goes to the movies or watches a movie on the TV these days? It is Netflix and other streaming platforms. Sigh. My age is showing ...

 

[Kathor1]

Duolingo

And a reminder for those who learn Spanish on Duolingo to be able to order their drink in a Camino bar or restaurant: They will have taught you to say jugo de naranja but in Spain they say zumo de naranja.

No worries though, they'll understand both terms and bring you orange juice and in any case you'll pick up the commonly used vocabulary very quickly. As quickly as café con leche.

 

[CWBuff]

Not sure if it applies as a difference between AE and BE but asking someone to take my picture vs. my photo

 

[Barbara]

Indeed, making the whole world believe that, apart from water, our french overrated wines are the only allowed beverage, is a good thing. Our wine growers need to sell their bottles...

In France it used to be not acceptable to drink anything before finishing the soup. My grandmother said in this case: "you will see clearly in your grave !"
However, please do not be shocked if you see a peasant like me finishing its soup with a bit of wine poured in the bowl or the plate (when it remains warm): it is a country custom named "chabrau" (or "chabrol", "godaille" in some places...).

It's certainly still current in Poitou Charentes. We call it godaille and usually mop it up with bread. I have heard that it's acceptable to drink a dry sherry with a consommé but that was a long time ago in a country far away. I'll drink wine with anything except chocolate, and I might even make an exception to that if there is a decent loupiac available. In any case, on Camino I'll drink whatever is available and preferably sit between two non drinkers. Not that I would be trying to get more than my fair share, perish the thought...

 

[dick bird]

I would not recommend doing the Camino on your first trip to Europe. You have so much to learn about European travel and culture that this will only distract from your Camino experience.

I suggest taking one or more training trips, starting in the UK where there is little language barrier, then move on to the continent. Between trips, you can train at home with a backpack and learn to walk long distances. All this training will result in a much better Camino experience.

As an analogy, Calculus is much more difficult to understand if you don't have a solid background in the mathematical prerequisites.


-Paul

And if you plan to visit the USA, be sure to spend some time in Mexico and Canada first to accustom yourself to their funny North American ways.

 

[C clearly]

What an interesting discussion, although @pjacobi has not shown much interest! It really emphasizes the point that walking the Camino, and being introduced to the variety of people and customs found among pilgrims on the Camino, is a perfect first international trip. The Camino helps dispel the misconception that Europe (or any continent) is uniform and the people can be stereotyped.

Of course, only one trip can be the first trip, and no trip cannot be/do everything. But I would definitely say that the Camino would provide a better overall introduction to international cultures than any other trip I can think of.

Does the complexity of such an introduction detract somehow from the Camino experience? I don't think so - rather, it enriches it and sets a stage for future trips. However, if a person wants a more solitary and meditative Camino, that is an option, too.)

 

[David Tallan]

I think all of this misses the essential point that @pjacobi was making: that some preparation and knowledge gathering, some on the ground experience, can make a Camino a better experience. My moderate experience shows this to be true. There is valuable experience in Europe that has resulted in significantly improved Caminos for me: more enjoyable with less pain and confusion.

Where I differ from @pjacobi is where I think that the most useful preparatory experience can be found. Clearly, and I think that this can be readily seen in the comments above, the most relevant and useful experience can only be found on the Camino. What you learn on your first Camino will make your second Camino better. What you learn on your first and second Camino will make your third Camino better. And so on.

Sure, I could take a trip to England, and another to France, and a third non-Camino trip to Spain before finally embarking on my fourth trip - a Camino. And a little bit of what I learned on the first pre-Camino trips might be relevant and improve that fourth trip (maybe a bit more from the third trip). But if all four of those trips were Caminos (a) it would probably cost me significantly less, (b) I would have four Caminos instead of just one, and (c) that fourth trip Camino would be so much better because of the much more relevant learnings from the first three than if the first three trips had been elsewhere in Europe.

The math is really quite simple.

 

[AlexanderCook]

Message to all transatlantic forummembers : you are safe here in Europe! You are safe with us .
Most of us know one or two other languages. Police and civil servants are in general very friendly and helpful.

When you are exhausted after a 25k " hike ", pubs and restaurants will serve you good food and drink. You do not even have to tip if you do not want to.

When the ATM eats up you card we will help you out if needed.

There is more chance an electric step hits you than that someone puts a gun to your face.

More free traveladvise by simple request .

Chill!

What an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.

 

[AlexanderCook]

My very first Camino (2014) AND trip to Europe were also one and the same, I loved both so much that this year is my forth Camino, and I never went home! Still enjoying the awesome experience of both!

Victoria - It's inspiring that you're on your fourth Camino. I have a feeling that after my first Camino I'll be well and truly hooked on the Way. Buen Camino.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I think all of this misses the essential point that @pjacobi was making: that some preparation and knowledge gathering, some on the ground experience, can make a Camino a better experience. My moderate experience shows this to be true. There is valuable experience in Europe that has resulted in significantly improved Caminos for me: more enjoyable with less pain and confusion

I think it's safe to say most people understand the concept of preparation. It was the manner in which those "essential points" were dispensed.

 

[Kathor1]

all of this misses the essential point that @pjacobi was making

The essential point is perhaps this: When reading @pjacobi's advice, does any newcomer actually believe that they must first travel to Europe once or several times to gain experience with travelling in Europe before they travel to Spain for their Camino and do they even consider following this advice? Or do we get worked up about this unusual advice for nothing and rebut it for nothing because newcomers will simply continue to pursue their plan to travel to Spain soon and go on Camino soon - whether they have travelled to Europe before or not.

 

[CWBuff]

What an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.

I enjoy your enthusiasm but keep in mind that you WILL be surrounded by "other humans". Just in a very slight chance that you are not aware - they are quite unpredictable. So, be mindful

Victoria - It's inspiring that you're on your fourth Camino. I have a feeling that after my first Camino I'll be well and truly hooked on the Way. Buen Camino.

Some folks here probably lost count of how many times they walked "their 4th Camino". I know someone who did 13 and most likely will try to squeeze in 2 more this season....

and yes you absolutely will be hooked! Buen Camino!

 

[SabsP]

What an encouraging message - thank you, SabsP. I'm thrilled to be travelling to the other side of the pond in three weeks and I have no doubt that everyone will be most hospitable. Cheers.

My post was a tongue in cheek answer to @pjacobi. Enjoy your Camino but @CWBuff is right. The Camino is no fluffy Disneyland but overall you will meet wellmeaning people with time to time some lesser nice encounters. Bit like life itself .

 

[AlexanderCook]

My post was a tongue in cheek answer to @pjacobi. Enjoy your Camino but @CWBuff is right. The Camino is no fluffy Disneyland but overall you will meet wellmeaning people with time to time some lesser nice encounters. Bit like life itself

Good to know. I appreciate the advice.

 

[AlexanderCook]

I enjoy your enthusiasm but keep in mind that you WILL be surrounded by "other humans". Just in a very slight chance that you are not aware - they are quite unpredictable. So, be mindful


Some folks here probably lost count of how many times they walked "their 4th Camino". I know someone who did 13 and most likely will try to squeeze in 2 more this season....

and yes you absolutely will be hooked! Buen Camino!

I'll be sure to be mindful. I appreciate the advice.

 

[AlexanderCook]

Hi Alexander.

Not exactly on point, but… depending on how many time zones you’re crossing on the way to Europe, I’ve found that the first few days are kinda blurry because of jet lag. Roughly 12 hour difference from where I start, so I’ve learned to fly into a place that I’d like to see, a little bit, and just kinda mosey around for two or three days adjusting to the time zone, THEN launch off into whatever the main focus is. Makes the memories sharper, if time permits.

Buen Camino!

Thanks for the advice.

 

[pjacobi]

Since everyone has a different response to jet-lag, it is helpful to use experience from a previous trip to better prepare for jet-lag. Many people underestimate the effects of jet-lag on their first experience, sleep at the wrong time and further prolong the jet-lag.


-Paul

 

[Barbara]

Since everyone has a different response to jet-lag, it is helpful to use experience from a previous trip to better prepare for jet-lag. Many people underestimate the effects of jet-lag on their first experience, sleep at the wrong time and further prolong the jet-lag.


-Paul

Many people find gratuitous advice tiring.