Smokers at the pilgrim office :-(

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

I have a request for the pilgrim office. Please forbid smoking preferable in the queue but at least after entering the court yard. When I arrived here 2 days ago I had to leave the yard 1 time and restart the queue again after getting out and try to find some air.

I forced my self to stay the second time and that was not so smart as I now have problems with my lungs. Another person with asthma had to use her medicine several times. (I don't have asthma I have another condition without any medication).

We asked smokers to stop but the were like "hey we are outside". Some smokers don't understand that a person can get sick if someone smoking 20 metres a head on a street.

The waiting for the Compostela would be so much nicer without someone's cigarette in your face.

 

[rsvp125]

Chill out: it's Spain!

 

[Sayumm19]

Yeah, there's pretty much no way to stop a smoker from smoking if they want to and the law doesn't forbid it in that area (especially in Europe!). Speaking as a smoker though, it would be nice if we were more considerate, especially if someone specifically asks you to stop.

 

[annakappa]

Good observation, Beatrice!
I wonder perhaps that the Pilgrims Office could put up a couple of No Smoking signs. After all, the courtyard is in private property.
If they smoke out on the street, should the queue be long, well there there's nothing you can do. Anne

 

[Bajaracer]

Even though Spain's smoking laws were passed in 2011, they're not really strict about it. Unless the Pilgrims office puts up no smoking signs in the courtyard, people will smoke otherwise.
The CSJ UK run Albergue Guacelmo in Rabanal del Camino is a non smoking albergue period! You're not even allowed to smoke in open back area as well.

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

Yeah, there's pretty much no way to stop a smoker from smoking if they want to and the law doesn't forbid it in that area (especially in Europe!). Speaking as a smoker though, it would be nice if we were more considerate, especially if someone specifically asks you to stop.

The yard is private property I guess so the owners can at least put up signs. Then it is a little bit easier to say "could you please turn out that cigarette, smoking is not allowed here".

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

Chill out: it's Spain!

Yeah I will really chill out if I stop breathing. It make take some time for the body to cool down but then really chilling for the eternity.

 

[sriyantra]

Chill out: it's Spain!

How Is Smoking Related to Asthma?
If you have asthma, an asthma attack can occur when something irritates your airways and "triggers" an attack. Your triggers might be different from other people’s triggers.3

Tobacco smoke is one of the most common asthma triggers. www.cdc.gov


Smoke induced asthma is real and can be a terrifying trigger for sufferers. "Chilling out" in any country won't stop or help an attack.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Yes please; 'No Smoking' once through the doors into the courtyard. For those with chest/lung problems it would be really good. I don't remember folk smoking in the courtyard so sad if they have now started to do so.

Out in the street cannot be controlled, and that is so much worse now here in the UK as is sitting outside of cafés. All the smokers are puffing away and we have to move inside or move on. It never seemed so difficult in Spain in that respect, apart from one cafe in Lugo - post Camino.

 

[Dutch]

Yesss...stop blowing smoke in my face....urghh

 

[Dutch]

So funny, here we are, telling/asking/expecting people to be considerate or helping pilgrims with all sorts of stuff, preperations and advise, but when it comes to smoking....aiaiai....don't touch my cigarette!! All of a sudden, the considerate and helpfull pilgrims are a lot less considerate and helpfull. They sometimes become quite nasty even.

Is it soooo difficult to keep your smoke away from somebody who doesn't like it? Really? Bad enough (for your surroundings) that you smell like an ashtray, but do i have to as well?

 

[bystander]

Once again on this the forum the words good manners and consideration for others spring instantly to mind.

 

[Arn]

Food for thought:http://www.everydayhealth.com/asthma-pictures/things-that-can-trigger-asthma-attacks.aspx#01

 

[Dutch]

Very nice, but most things, apart from thunderstorms, i have a lot of control over. Other peoples smoke isn't one of them. Just take the example of standing in line at pilgrim office. I have absolutely no control over someone else smoking. I can try, but if that doesnt work....to bad, but only to bad for me, not for the smoker.

 

[Dutch]

Maybe the No Smoking sign can be food for thought for @JohnnieWalker ? It's not like your hurting anybody with this sign. Maybe the pilgrim office can think about it?

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

I have sensory hyper-reactivity which means that I can't be helped with asthma medicine either (head from smoker "you can take you meds and I can smoke). I'm so tired of having to go inside to eat or leave my food, change side of a pavement of sprint in front of a smoker, leaving a bus or a train just because the person in the seat next to me is smelling like an ashtray. I missed a plane once because the taxi driver was a smoker and I could not enter his taxi. I have slept in common areas in albergues as there has been to many smokers in my room. So yes smokers do restrict my life. I just left a restaurant terrace here in Santiago before my tea arrived because the person next to me started to smoke and there were no places inside. I placed my money on the counter and left.

I just had a request for being able to pick up my Compostela the next time without being sick. But that might be to much to ask from fellow pilgrims?

For me cigarette smoke is the worst trigger. Some perfumes and chemicals are also really bad. But easier to avoid.

 

[Tia Valeria]

We are glad that Beatrice raised this. Terry has to keep his chest clear and is affected by cigarette smoke amongst other things. We will have to work every night and early morning to keep his chest clear on our next Camino, so will use private accomodation. It would be so sad to walk successfully only to have him made unwell at the Pilgrims' Office.
We will add our plea for the whole of the Pilgrims' Office area to be made 'No Smoking' so that the courtyard is smoke free.

 

[xin loi]

TV claims that the only drug that is effective against Ebola comes from Tobacco. Can't wait for Gov't to encourage tobacco use again. Also, attended a talk last week about medicinal plants in the Amazon. Speaker said he was surprised how many shamans still consider smoking tobacco a plus for health, not a negative.

One of the things I liked about the Camino was the scent of cigarette smoke in the morning ground fog as we started to walk.

 

[Graham-R]

If I got that bad around smoke I would bring a face mask with me, might help with getting on with everyday life.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...osable-Respirators?N=5022966+3294857473&rt=r3
Could even jazz it up with some No Smoking stickers!

 

[Tia Valeria]

Sorry, but a few of you do not understand the problems that some folk have. If it was a visible disability would you be so unfeeling??

 

[CaptBuddy]

Sorry, but a few of you do not understand the problems that some folk have. If it was a visible disability would you be so unfeeling??

Valeria, I don't think the situation is as bad as you perceive. If Terry survives in the UK, I think he will be ok in Spain.
I have a allergic sensitivity to smoke, one that affects my respiration. So I can sympathized with you and others.
You may have to be extra alert, and flexible. I found that early morning is a quiet time at the Pilgrim Office. If you're staying in SdC overnight, go early the next day rather than stand in line in the late afternoon.

 

[Tia Valeria]

Agreed CaptBuddy, to a certain point. However surely asking for No Smoking within the pilgrims office including the courtyard is not unreasonable as some folk cannot shoose when to join the queue, and the courtyard is an enclosed space (in the sense that it is a confined area).

 

[Jabaldo]

I just buried my 69 year old brother-in-law who dies from lung cancer. You guessed it he was a smoker for 55 years. I wish people could see his torcher with his final breath. Very sad.
As much as I am opposed to smoking, smokers have rights too. Go for it light up and continue to blacken your lungs. Such a shame for you just may die young like my brother-in-law and you will be missed!

 

[Tia Valeria]

So sorry to hear of your loss Jabaldo.

 

[CaptBuddy]

Agreed CaptBuddy, to a certain point. However surely asking for No Smoking within the pilgrims office including the courtyard is not unreasonable as some folk cannot shoose when to join the queue, and the courtyard is an enclosed space (in the sense that it is a confined area).

We are agreed. I don't see anyone here saying they are opposed to banning smoking in the areas where it is practical.
I'm struck by the absence of a post saying, "I've gone to the Pilgrim Office and asked them to do something about it".
Some of the posters and forum members here are in position to do so. Maybe there is a reason.

But please, to everyone, let's stop calling each other uncaring or unfeeling. None of us need more walls to overcome.

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

We are agreed. I don't see anyone here saying they are opposed to banning smoking in the areas where it is practical.
I'm struck by the absence of a post saying, "I've gone to the Pilgrim Office and asked them to do something about it".
Some of the posters and forum members here are in position to do so. Maybe there is a reason.

But please, to everyone, let's stop calling each other uncaring or unfeeling. None of us need more walls to overcome.

I did comment on it when I was there. But I didn't really feel that the person I talked to (at the desk) cared. That's why I wrote the post. To get more people to ask for it or people who works there and read this can consider it.

 

[Tia Valeria]

A couple of posts worried me (it might be that they just come over badly) but I agree most seem understanding.
Appreciate the comment about saying to the Pilgrims Office. I have just PMd 'JW' to alert him to this thread so maybe he will respond here or be able to have the issue discussed in the offices. (When they get a spare moment from issuing certificates/Compostelas etc )

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Hola - greetings from a VERY busy Pilgrims' Office. I personally have every sympathy with banning smoking everywhere - including the courtyard of the Pilgrims' Office. Smoking is smelly, obnoxious and very unhealthy. The dangers of passive smoking are well known. This is something I have raised with the cathedral in the past and recently the Amigos have recently raised the matter again. The decision rests with the Chapter of Canons who do not usually take decisions quickly. I think their problem is that the law of Spain permits smoking in the out doors and they feel sorry for the pilgrims who have to wait for their Compostelas. However my argument is that they have a duty of care to their staff, volunteers and non-smoking pilgrims - and the many children we get queuing with parents. I'l let you know the outcome - as you can see I am not neutral on this issue!

 

[Tia Valeria]

Thank you Johnny, especially knowing how busy you all are at present.

 

[fraluchi]

[...] The decision rests with the Chapter of Canons who do not usually take decisions quickly. I think their problem is that the law of Spain permits smoking in the out doors and they feel sorry for the pilgrims who have to wait for their Compostelas. However my argument is that they have a duty of care to their staff, volunteers and non-smoking pilgrims - and the many children we get queuing with parents. I'l let you know the outcome - as you can see I am not neutral on this issue!

Well written and considered, John!
The point is, as Annakappa already mentioned, that once people are on private property (and the courtyard to the Pilgrims' Office is such), the owner can very simply post a "prohibido fumar" sign and ask supervisors to remind people of this issue. Very often smokers who return to the garden seating arrangement, in their euphoric state of having a Compostela, need to "light a fag". A courteous reminder usually has a "I'm sorry" effect. For a Spaniard to hear this remainder from a foreigner isn't always easy to digest.

 

[bystander]

Good luck Mr Walker! I hope the ban comes into place.

 

[CaptBuddy]

Hola - greetings from a VERY busy Pilgrims' Office. I personally have every sympathy with banning smoking everywhere - including the courtyard of the Pilgrims' Office. Smoking is smelly, obnoxious and very unhealthy. The dangers of passive smoking are well known. This is something I have raised with the cathedral in the past and recently the Amigos have recently raised the matter again. The decision rests with the Chapter of Canons who do not usually take decisions quickly. I think their problem is that the law of Spain permits smoking in the out doors and they feel sorry for the pilgrims who have to wait for their Compostelas. However my argument is that they have a duty of care to their staff, volunteers and non-smoking pilgrims - and the many children we get queuing with parents. I'l let you know the outcome - as you can see I am not neutral on this issue!

Progress can be agonizingly slow.
I had a feeling that there is a reason why it was not already done. I should have known there was a committee involved.

 

[annakappa]

Progress can be agonizingly slow.
I had a feeling that there is a reason why it was not already done. I should have known there was a committee involved.

A camel is a horse designed by a committee! Anne

 

[Felipe]

Upon Wikipedia. Spain has the 19th place in the list of countries by cigarette consumption per capita.
One of the worst travel experience in my life was -a couple of decades ago- going from Madrid to Toledo in a bus, where “only” the back half was for smokers. There were about 20 persons (mostly young people) chain-smoking. I am quite tolerant to smoke, but it was really, really awful. And currently, you probably have seen a very odd structure in Barajas airport: a smokers’ area, a kind of plastic cubicle without roof -apparently the idea is that smoke goes always up.
There is a law that declares that working places, and certain open air places are “smoke free areas”. But enforcement sometimes rests upon owners or administrators; it may be more a consensus than a rule. Last time, in Navarre, I discovered that bars were “smoke allowed” areas, but restaurants were spared.
Now, regarding the Pilgrim's Office issue, remember the Spanish saying: “las cosas de palacio van despacio” (sometimes translated -very properly to this case- as “the mills of God grind slowly”).
And, btw, I wonder hoy many of the canons are smokers.

 

[t2andreo]

Although I am not personally allergic to the secondhand smoke, I witnessed many instances of pilgrims affected by second-hand smoke and smokers oblivious to their nearby fellow pilgrim's plight at the Pilgrim Office both this year and last. Accordingly, I agree with the majority of posters that a "no fumar" policy needs to be adopted at the Pilgrim Office as soon as possible.

The demarcation line should be the outer doors from Rua do Vilar. Once inside the court yard, no lit tobacco or other substances would be permitted. No fumar signs should be conspicuously posted.

Standard, international no-smoking logo signs with "No Fumar" printed on them are inexpensive and readily available at most local ferreterías. They can be affixed using heavy-duty, outdoor, double-sided, waterproof tape. 3M makes such a product and it is available in Spain.

Once one enters through the outer courtyard doors, one is on private church-property. Does anyone choose to dispute this? As such, any property owner has the right to adopt a policy that protects their "customer's" health and safety while they are on the grounds.

Personally, I would rather have a few dozen miffed smokers grumble at the policy each day, than have to answer for the untimely death of a highly allergic or asthmatic pilgrim who suffered an anaphylactic seizure and died because first responders could not get there fast enough.

Then there is the whole liability, "suffer and permitted" and negligence issues that the courts might eventually need to decide. This would come into play where a property owner had the opportunity to preserve the health of all their customers but chose not to and something very bad happened. Sooner or later...

It may not have happened yet, but as the pilgrim numbers reach towards 300,000 annually the statistical likelihood also increases.

If some compromise must be struck to protect smokers rights (I concur that we are dealing with Spain here) perhaps a simple procedure can be devised so that, when the queue is longer than "X" minutes or if the line is solidly in rua do Vilar, smokers in the queue within the court can preserve / save their place in the queue while they return to the public street to satisfy their addiction. Surely some simple process or policy can be adopted to see this procedure is not abused by queue-crashers. Then again, I would suggest the accommodation is not necessary. But I put it here solely for discussion.

Finally, if the Pilgrim Office succeeds in placing an awning or other cover or partial cover over some or all of the courtyard to provide shade or rain protection, the courtyard would be less "open" and more "closed." This makes the smoking - non smoking issue all the more timely.

I hope this helps move the discussion forward.

 

[sriyantra]

Although I am not personally allergic to the secondhand smoke, I witnessed many instances of pilgrims affected by second-hand smoke and smokers oblivious to their nearby fellow pilgrim's plight at the Pilgrim Office both this year and last. Accordingly, I agree with the majority of posters that a "no fumar" policy needs to be adopted at the Pilgrim Office as soon as possible.

The demarcation line should be the outer doors from Rua do Vilar. Once inside the court yard, no lit tobacco or other substances would be permitted. No fumar signs should be conspicuously posted.

Standard, international no-smoking logo signs with "No Fumar" printed on them are inexpensive and readily available at most local ferreterías. They can be affixed using heavy-duty, outdoor, double-sided, waterproof tape. 3M makes such a product and it is available in Spain.

Once one enters through the outer courtyard doors, one is on private church-property. Does anyone choose to dispute this? As such, any property owner has the right to adopt a policy that protects their "customer's" health and safety while they are on the grounds.

Personally, I would rather have a few dozen miffed smokers grumble at the policy each day, than have to answer for the untimely death of a highly allergic or asthmatic pilgrim who suffered an anaphylactic seizure and died because first responders could not get there fast enough.

Then there is the whole liability, "suffer and permitted" and negligence issues that the courts might eventually need to decide. This would come into play where a property owner had the opportunity to preserve the health of all their customers but chose not to and something very bad happened. Sooner or later...

It may not have happened yet, but as the pilgrim numbers reach towards 300,000 annually the statistical likelihood also increases.

If some compromise must be struck to protect smokers rights (I concur that we are dealing with Spain here) perhaps a simple procedure can be devised so that, when the queue is longer than "X" minutes or if the line is solidly in rua do Vilar, smokers in the queue within the court can preserve / save their place in the queue while they return to the public street to satisfy their addiction. Surely some simple process or policy can be adopted to see this procedure is not abused by queue-crashers. Then again, I would suggest the accommodation is not necessary. But I put it here solely for discussion.

Finally, if the Pilgrim Office succeeds in placing an awning or other cover or partial cover over some or all of the courtyard to provide shade or rain protection, the courtyard would be less "open" and more "closed." This makes the smoking - non smoking issue all the more timely.

I hope this helps move the discussion forward.

As a retired teacher we were always being told "duty of care" and it has stuck with me. I believe in freedom of choice, but I also believe in a working compromise. Thank you for your answer.

 

[Arn]

JW is "on the case"...the result may not be as one may wish...but he will get an answer.

 

[Dutch]

If some compromise must be struck to protect smokers rights (I concur that we are dealing with Spain here) perhaps a simple procedure can be devised so that, when the queue is longer than "X" minutes or if the line is solidly in rua do Vilar, smokers in the queue within the court can preserve / save their place in the queue while they return to the public street to satisfy their addiction. Surely some simple process or policy can be adopted to see this procedure is not abused by queue-crashers. Then again, I would suggest the accommodation is not necessary. But I put it here solely for discussion.

Ridiculous, ludicrous.

If one can sit on a plain for on, two, ten hours and not smoke, one can stand in line for a compostella for half an hour and not smoke.

Leave the line for a smoke? Back to the line you go....by your own choice. I guess smoking was more important at that moment.

 

[fraluchi]

We shouldn't get off track!
The original message sent by Beatrice is "I have a request for the pilgrim office. Please forbid smoking preferable in the queue but at least after entering the court yard"
After all the pros and cons listed above, perhaps we should call it a day?

 

[xin loi]

Wait a minute! Why stop people from smoking in an open court yard when the same people complaining are going to soon attend Church services in a crowded room full of Incense & smoke ? I would think they would be using fork lifts to carry out dozens of pilgrim carcasses from the "smoke" filled church every day after they swing the Botafumeiro. Of Course if these complainers refuse to enter the "smoke "filled church, I owe them an apology. Did you go in or not?

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

Wait a minute! Why stop people from smoking in an open court yard when the same people complaining are going to soon attend Church services in a crowded room full of Incense & smoke ? I would think they would be using fork lifts to carry out dozens of pilgrim carcasses from the "smoke" filled church every day after they swing the Botafumeiro. Of Course if these complainers refuse to enter the "smoke "filled church, I owe them an apology. Did you go in or not?

Well I had to leave the church once when they filled it with smoke, didn't know that it would affect me so I found my self in a hurry getting out. Happy now? And there is also a difference between smoke and smoke. Everyone is triggered by different allergenic substances.

And the open court yard isn't so open with that "wine roof".

How hard can it be to accept that someone can be really really sick by someone else smoking? I mean really sick. What would you say if I fill up a spray can with a poison that makes your lungs fill up with fluids and walked around and sprayed that in peoples faces would that be OK? Will you meet me at the street and take a dose in your face? A spray when you wait for the bus, one when you sit on a restaurant eating and one in the court yard of the pilgrim's office. Hey the air is free I can spray anything I want into it. You can leave, wear a face mask or just accept that the poison will make you sick.

Its a real mystery to me how being allowed to poison other people can be so damn important to some people.

But from here I leave the subject. I have entered my request and JW has forwarded it. Thank you so much. Next time waiting for the Compostela might not be such a anxiety filled moment as this year.

 

[Cejanus]

Chill out: it's Spain!

Whilst there are many points of views here, perhaps members should read the "Forum Rules." To quote rule 1.1) No personal attacks are allowed. We can have opinions that differ on topics, but we should not get personal.

 

[Dutch]

Wait a minute! Why stop people from smoking in an open court yard when the same people complaining are going to soon attend Church services in a crowded room full of Incense & smoke ? I would think they would be using fork lifts to carry out dozens of pilgrim carcasses from the "smoke" filled church every day after they swing the Botafumeiro. Of Course if these complainers refuse to enter the "smoke "filled church, I owe them an apology. Did you go in or not?

Are you a smoker, xin loi?

 

[Kanga]

I've never heard of someone being killed by not smoking.

It seems from JW's post that things are in hand.

 

[TheTinkerBell]

We had this whole smoking debate in another thread recently, so I'm not going to revisit that, but instead I'll stick to Beatrice's original point and offer a suggestion regarding signage.
Instead of a 'Prohibito fumar' sign, which may not sit well with the Chapter of Canons given the law in Spain, perhaps they would consider a bespoke sign that reads something like 'A humble request - please no smoking while queuing'. You could still have the image of the cigarette with the horizontal red stripe through it at the top of the sign and the text below it.
As a smoker myself, I understand this request and would abide by it 100%.

 

[Dutch]

Can't a smoker think of this him/herself? Is it so hard to understand that people find it disgusting to have those fumes get blown in their faces or have serious health issues with it?

This isn't just common sense, but even more it is simple common courtesy if you ask me.

 

[bystander]

Can't a smoker think of this him/herself? Is it so hard to understand that people find it disgusting to have those fumes get blown in their faces or have serious health issues with it?

This isn't just common sense, but even more it is simple common courtesy if you ask me.

Dutch, totally in agreement, see my comment yesterday, 14th, at 10.54.

 

[Dutch]

Your right, @bystander i've seen it. Its just that i dont understand why smokers become so selfish, sensitive and prickly when it comes to their smokes.

Awell, might as well stop commenting, 'cause i'll just sound like a broken record....or should i say bad mp3?

 

[wayfarer]

We had a reasonable comment and request from the OP and after a long debate, some getting close to being personal, Johnny Walker took that request on board and has the situation in hand, so could we please, if we have any more to add, keep it positive and friendly.

 

[bismith]

Chill out: it's Spain!

You didn't get it probably never will. The smoking was detrimental to the health of someone else. If you are only harming yourself that's fine. It is your choice then, otherwise it really isn't.

 

[grayland]

I think everyone has had a chance to voice an opinion on the smoking issue.
A very, very small percentage of pilgrims will ever see thread...thus the only hope for progress will be our friend ..JW.

Maybe we should give it a rest for a while before it gets personal.