Templiers/Hospitaliers wrt the CdS pilgrimage?

[dick bird]

If you pay a visit to the Total Perspective Vortex, all becomes clear.

I assume you've read the book. You know what happens to people who visit the Total Perspective Vortex.

 

[Crosbie]

I assume you've read the book. You know what happens to people who visit the Total Perspective Vortex.

Heyy, Zaphod Beeblebrox isn't the only hoopie frood in the universe you know.

 

[David Tallan]

What a line to end on!

As you may therefore already know, at the time Solomon's Temple was being built, The Sun rose in the West.

Solomon's temple was built about 3000 years ago. The Earth has not changed the direction of rotation in that time period.

I am beginning to think you are trolling us.

 

[VNwalking]

If you pay a visit to the Total Perspective Vortex, all becomes clear.

This thread is torture, never mind the TPV.

 

[Crosbie]

Solomon's temple was built about 3000 years ago. The Earth has not changed the direction of rotation in that time period.

I am beginning to think you are trolling us.

This is not unexpected.

If you joined me on my Camino, i could enlighten you.

 

[peregrina2000]

This thread goes way beyond anything I know about. Rather than close the thread, as some have suggested, I think that if you find this discussion to be entering the realm of fantasy, the best thing to do is avert your eyes. Threads fall to the bottom, unless people respond to them. I will be honest, I have not been reading these posts, but nothing that has been reported looks like a rules violation. We evaluate posts with respect to the rules, and not with respect to whether we think one side of the conversation is on the better side of the historical facts.

 

[trecile]

This thread is torture, never mind the TPV.

In the words of Dionne Warwick you can always "Walk On By."

 

[Walkalong]

What a line to end on!

As you may therefore already know, at the time Solomon's Temple was being built, The Sun rose in the West.

People don't stand on street corners, distributing pamphlets saying: "The sun's rising, The sun's rising". Those that do are not trying to convince others.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If not walking from your front door, then perhaps start in Le Puy, or Vezelay.

Buen Camino

PS: Ancient Greeks and early Christians knew the earth was a sphere. Plato wrote about a spherical Earth. This myth was created in the 17th century by Protestants to argue against Catholic teachings.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a .....

 

[Crosbie]

The cute thing about The Sun rising in the West, is that it is so preposterous it serves as a safe shibboleth.

Geocentricity vs Heliocentricity was a contrived dispute - not a lot of people know that.

On the subject of ducks, if it weighs the same as a duck, it must be made of wood, because wood, like ducks, floats, and so it must be a witch:

I arrive at SJPdP on the 2nd - set off on the 3rd.

 

[Kirkie]

The cute thing about The Sun rising in the West, is that it is so preposterous it serves as a safe shibboleth.

Geocentricity vs Heliocentricity was a contrived dispute - not a lot of people know that.

On the subject of ducks, if it weighs the same as a duck, it must be made of wood, because wood, like ducks, floats, and so it must be a witch:

I arrive at SJPdP on the 2nd - set off on the 3rd.

Crosbie, I look forward to hearing how your Camino unfolds. Do tell!
Please help me though, I cannot follow fancy or esoteric stuff. Labels and history - I prefer the reporting of the sounds of the birds, or crunching feet, the startling delight of a bewitching sunrise or sunset... I think you see what I would like to see. There is a thread, on the camino, one photo at a time, more or less. That would be a great way to let us follow you. Buen camino.

 

[dick bird]

If you pay a visit to the Total Perspective Vortex, all becomes clear.

You've read the book. You know what happens to people who visit the Total Perspective Vortex.

 

[henrythedog]

For anyone who has not yet lost the will to live; there is a good podcast in the BBC ‘In our time’ series on the Templars. I recall that it describes how they set up one of the early international banking systems.

 

[trecile]

For anyone who has not yet lost the will to live; there is a good podcast in the BBC ‘In our time’ series on the Templars. I recall that it describes how they set up one of the early international banking systems.

Here it is

BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time, The Knights Templar

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the rise and abrupt fall of the famous military order.

www.bbc.co.uk

I hate to admit it, but "In Our Time" is one of the podcasts that I use to fall asleep. It keeps my interest enough to distract my restless mind, but not so engaging that it keeps me awake.

I do go back and listen to full episodes that are particularly interesting when I'm fully conscious.

 

[Kathor1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001cpwt

This is another good podcast and overview of the 200-year history of the Templar order. Towards the end of the podcast, a participant says that the concept of the military religious orders was "crucial to the culture and the political and religious existence on the Iberian peninsula for centuries".

In the 18th and 19th century newly formed organisations and groups "got hold of the Templar history and co-opted it into their own myth history and you have a weird conflation of ideas about them". "Weird history woven into Templar history". "So you have memory of the Templars that is completely manufactured which was created in the 18th and 19th century and persists to this day." Those members of the Templar order who were not executed in Paris in the early years of the 14th century "grew old and died" and the existence of the order ended. They cannot defend themselves and their memory anymore ...

The podcast had little to say about the presence of the Templars in Spain, and the Camino to Santiago is not mentioned once but a history of 200 years cannot be covered in great detail in a 50 minutes podcast. Their main military role and activities were in what is now Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Israel. Their main economic role and activity was in France. Their major financial centres were in Paris and London. The Templar order is presumably mentioned at one point or another in every Camino Francés guidebook. Much of it paints an inaccurate picture of their time in Spain. Why should we not discuss it on this forum, or not be allowed to discuss it on this forum, and share what we have read or know from our own education at school or university?

The Camino de Santiago has been declared as a European Cultural Route: As a result of this pilgrimage, a rich heritage was formed. Tangible heritage such as places of worship, hospitals, accommodation facilities, bridges, as well as non-tangible heritage in the form of myths, legends and songs are present along the Santiago Routes and can be enjoyed by the traveller.

Many Camino peregrin@s have no interest in all this and that is fine. But some do ...

 

[Kathor1]

Council of Europe values​

For centuries, pilgrims could discover new traditions, languages and ways of life and return home with a rich cultural background that was rare at a time when long-distance travel exposed the traveller to considerable danger. Thus the Santiago Routes serve both as a symbol, reflecting over one thousand years of European history, and as a model of cultural co-operation for Europe as a whole.

 

[Kathor1]

Returning to medieval pilgrims and their financial interaction with the Templar order:

In addition to the name of Pierre Sarrasin (various spellings of the name exist) I found again the name of another pilgrim who had financial dealings with the Templar order in connection with his pilgrimage. The name is given as Peter Deusde and his wife Elisabeth but I think this the spelling of the name in German. Probably Pedro and Isabel in Spanish and something similar in Latin. I've not found the original document in Latin yet.

But I am sure that it all can be found with the help of Google. Because in case I had not yet mentioned it before: the Internet is a marvellous tool.

 

[chinacat]

I’m wondering about all the people whose karma will lead them to walk at the same time as the OP.
September is a busy month ….

 

[Bradypus]

Might be interesting to be a fly on the wall when @Crosbie meets Tomas in Manjarin. I hope they are both from the same branch of the Templars. Would hate to see a medieval civil war breaking out in the mountains of El Bierzo....

PS: If @Crosbie defeats Tomas in single combat does he have to take over running the place in Manjarin?

 

[JabbaPapa]

This is another good podcast and overview of the 200-year history of the Templar order. Towards the end of the podcast, a participant says that the concept of the military religious orders was "crucial to the culture and the political and religious existence on the Iberian peninsula for centuries".

Certainly -- though the Orders most associated with the Camino itself were the Hospitallers and the Order of Santiago, the Templars being more associated with Portugal, in Iberia (and most likely the fight against the Muslims during the Reconquista), and with Jerusalem and the Way to Jerusalem.

Of course the Orders of Santiago and the Hospital are less exciting for conspiracy theorists and fabulists because they persist to this day, albeit in very different form than previously.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Returning to medieval pilgrims and their financial interaction with the Templar order:

In addition to the name of Pierre Sarrasin (various spellings of the name exist) I found again the name of another pilgrim who had financial dealings with the Templar order in connection with his pilgrimage. The name is given as Peter Deusde and his wife Elisabeth but I think this the spelling of the name in German. Probably Pedro and Isabel in Spanish and something similar in Latin. I've not found the original document in Latin yet.

Such documents are likely to be extremely rare, as the typical use of one would have been to cash it in.

 

[Kathor1]

Found both of them! Below are transcripts of 12th and 13th century legal documents that have survived the centuries, one signed by "I, Petrus Sarracenus" in Paris in June 1220 (M CC vicesimo) and the other one signed by "I, Petre Deusde" in October in 1135 (or 1173?).

Both documents were drawn up in connection with their intended pilgrimage to Santiago resp. to Rome. These are not letters of credit issued by a representative of the Templar order. I don't even know whether any such credit letters have survived to this day or how frequently they were used. I think that such letters of credit were mainly issued in connection with a pilgrimage to Jerusalem which was an expensive journey in the 12th and 13th century and mainly undertaken by wealthy citizens, apart from the poor who travelled with and in the wake of the overland crusader armies.

 

[Crosbie]

Found both of them! Below are transcripts of 12th and 13th century legal documents that have survived the centuries,

Caualleria de Templum Salomonis = Cavalry from the Temple of Solomon

But, as many allege, there's no evidence of any such thing as Solomon's Temple, let alone the Knights Templar. So, those 'many' must conclude these transcripts are works of fiction.

 

[Kathor1]

Caualleria de Templum Salomonis = Cavalry from the Temple of Solomon

But, as many allege, there's no evidence of any such thing as Solomon's Temple, let alone the Knights Templar. So, those 'many' must conclude these transcripts are works of fiction.

What on earth are you trying to say???

Wikipedia on Knights Templars, very first sentence:

The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Salomonici), also known as the Order of Solomon's Temple, the Knights Templar, or simply the Templars, was a military order of the Catholic faith,​

That's what they chose to call themselves. And what others chose to call them. That's all. Nothing can be concluded from their name as to the actual existence of an actual building at their time, after their time or before their time.

Contributions like those quoted above are not meaningful. It's just trying to twist and turn the selected words of others - whether they are made in the thread or elsewhere. What is the purpose? Grabbing nilly-willy a few words from a historical document in order to either try in vain to prove one's point or to bore other participants to death so that they stop contributing? It would not be the first time that forum members decide to bail out and vow to never engage again with a particular poster when they are fed up to their teeth and beyond with this method of "discussion".

 

[Crosbie]

As it appears my comments are painful to others, enough for them to petition the closure of the thread, I will no longer comment unless invited to do so.

 

[Kathor1]

The forum has an Ignore function. When a forum name is put on one's Ignore list, one does not longer see the Ignored forum member's posts.

Perhaps, in a future version of the forum software, we can also have an "Ignore thread" button?

 

[Former member 104756]

As it appears my comments are painful to others, enough for them to petition the closure of the thread, I will no longer comment unless invited to do so.

As @peregrina2000 wrote above, moderators don’t close threads if no rules have been violated. But, as the ‘Original Poster’ you can ask the moderators for the thread to be closed. People do that for various reasons. Perhaps, e.g., if the thread has run its course for you.

 

[Crosbie]

Perhaps the thread has run its course for you.

Not at all. I find the subject immensely interesting.

However, as a newbie I have little standing in this forum, and to avoid further upset, I will have to defer to the more highly respected participants to explore the subject further, i.e. the relationship between Camino Frances->Portugues->Jerusalem/Mecca/Holy Land and the Templiers/Hospitaliers & Crusades.

 

[Bradypus]

However, as a newbie I have little standing in this forum, and to avoid further upset, I will have to defer to the more highly respected participants to explore the subject further,

I do not think that being a "newbie" is an issue here. It is the content of some of your posts which is regarded as questionable by many of us. Websites such as the knightstemplarorder.org site which make claims for historical "facts" which seem to have no support in conventional works on history or archaeology and which are associated with a fantastical world of secretive alternative world orders.

 

[Crosbie]

I do not think that being a "newbie" is an issue here. It is the content of some of your posts which is regarded as questionable by many of us. Websites such as the knightstemplarorder.org site which make claims for historical "facts" which seem to have no support in conventional works on history or archaeology and which are associated with a fantastical world of secretive alternative world orders.

I had only posted that link as background reading, and made no claims about its veracity. I assume readers to have sufficient intellect to appreciate the need for discernment in this respect.

When it was suggested it to be my source, I was quite emphatic that it was nothing of the sort.

I had simply done a quick Google search for the benefit of other readers, and felt that site had enough material to be interesting, despite its many inaccuracies and misleading details.

The truth concerning Solomon's Temple is extremely difficult to obtain - and that's the way The Templars prefer it. Indeed, no Templar is permitted to divulge it.

Incidentally, per your mention of 'alternative world orders', I should point out that this comes from a corruption/misintepretation of of Novus ordo seclorum, which means 'new order of the ages', i.e. the period from Aquarius to Virgo. And as the song goes: This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

 

[dick bird]

Caualleria de Templum Salomonis = Cavalry from the Temple of Solomon

But, as many allege, there's no evidence of any such thing as Solomon's Temple, let alone the Knights Templar. So, those 'many' must conclude these transcripts are works of fiction.

None of us has even suggested that Solomon´s temple didn´t exist, and I am fairly sure most of us would agree that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the likeliest site for it. And nobody on this thread has come anywhere near suggesting that the Templars didn´t exist, so I think you are being very unfair to the members who have posted on this thread. Not only that, far from disputing their existence, several members have gone to enormous time and trouble to discover and share some reliable facts about the Knights Templar. And FYI, if anyone were ´petitioning´(asking?) to have this thread closed, I would be one of the first know about it. By the way, the preposition ´de´ in Latin, as in modern Spanish can mean ´of´ as well as ´from´. ´From´ in Latin is usually ´ab´.

 

[Kathor1]

Anybody heard of this contemporary pilgrimage trail or read the book or walked it?


Map of the Templar Trail from France to Jerusalem pioneered by Brandon Wilson on pilgrimage in 2006

From Wikipedia:

The Templar Trail is a pilgrimage path that follows the route used in 1096 by Godfrey of Bouillon, Duke of Lower Lorraine, and his troops during the First Crusade to liberate the city of Jerusalem. It begins in Dijon, France and crosses eleven countries and two continents for 4,223 kilometres (2,624 mi). In 2006, Brandon Wilson, an American author and explorer, and Émile, a retired 68-year-old French teacher, retraced the route to create the trail. The account of their expedition with stages and distances are detailed in Wilson's 2008 book Along the Templar Trail: Seven Million Steps for Peace which won gold in the Lowell Thomas Travel Journalism Awards for best travel book in 2009.​

 

[Crosbie]

so I think you are being very unfair to the members who have posted on this thread.

I will add 'unfair' to codswallop, troll, fiction, fantasy, conspiracy theory, fabulism, boring ('other participants to death'), tiresome ('fed up to their teeth and beyond'). I'm really not doing at all well, am I?

 

[VNwalking]

I'm really not doing at all well, am I?

Like a lot of others, I think your ideas are 'interesting' - but give you a lot of credit for staying engaged and not getting personal or angrily defensive when the world (here anyway) disagrees with you.
That's doing well in my book.

 

[Kathor1]

For the record: I wrote in my post #123:

to bore other participants to death so that they stop contributing? It would not be the first time that forum members decide to bail out and vow to never engage again with a particular poster when they are fed up to their teeth and beyond with this method of "discussion" ​

​

in an attempt to describe a style, a move, in forum discussions that is not unique to this thread.

Edited to add: Just looked up the terminology. My reply was not an ad hominem argument. It was a reply to a non-sequitur fallacy – where the conclusion does not logically follow the premise.

 

[dick bird]

I will add 'unfair' to codswallop, troll, fiction, fantasy, conspiracy theory, fabulism, boring ('other participants to death'), tiresome ('fed up to their teeth and beyond'). I'm really not doing at all well, am I?

Nope.
just to reiterate, nobody on this thread has claimed the Temple of Solomon never existed, nobody on this thread has claimed the Knight Templars never existed and nobody has petitioned for this thread to be closed.

If you have authoritative sources, please do what others on this thread have done, share them with us. If you give a link to a dodgy website, we will assume that that is your source. Either you know something we don´t, in which case you need to provide reliable evidence as opposed to interesting background reading, or you are as much in the dark about the Knights Templar as the rest of us.

 

[Kathor1]

Participation in these threads is never in vain.

I invested some time into tracking down the transcripts of two 12th and 13th century documents. I can now amuse myself for a few rainy afternoons with figuring out the vocabulary and grammar.

I have learnt about the existence of a contemporary pilgrimage trail called "Templar Trail" that starts in France and ends in Jerusalem.

I discovered that the person who created this trail and walked it for the first time together with a companion is a member of this forum (@pelegrinotrek). He wrote a few posts and was last seen on the forum in January 2009. He also is a Camino de Santiago peregrino.

I learnt that the co-founder of the Templar Order and first Grand Master, Hugues de Payens, did not participate in the first crusade led by Godfrey of Bouillon although some websites say so (I did not check it either way). Godfrey of Bouillon is a big name. He had a castle in Bouillon in Belgium. I visited it decades ago. I toy with the idea of a return visit.

Buen Camino a todas y todos.

 

[Bradypus]

I invested some time in tracking down the transcripts of two 12th and 13th centuries. I can now amuse myself for a few rainy afternoons with figuring out the vocabulary and grammar.

I invested a couple of minutes in running the images through Google Translate just to get a quick and dirty idea of what they contained. Whatever Latin grammar I once learned has long since leaked away! Interesting stuff about wills and their conditions. A reminder that complicated property settlements are nothing new!

 

[JabbaPapa]

such letters of credit were mainly issued in connection with a pilgrimage to Jerusalem which was an expensive journey in the 12th and 13th century and mainly undertaken by wealthy citizens, apart from the poor who travelled with and in the wake of the overland crusader armies.

Well, clearly the poorer pilgrims would not have travelled with such documents -- but my impression from academic studies I've read concerning the Mediaeval Jerusalem Way is that many of the pilgrims on that way undertook a temporary vow of poverty, the foot pilgrims anyway.

Contrariwise of course, those travelling some of their Way to Jerusalem by ship on the more "touristic" Maritime routes will have been wealthier than most.

View attachment 155061

View attachment 155060

Nice find for the 1135 , but the "1220" one looks very suspect IMO, the Latin is of a later Century IMO.

 

[JabbaPapa]

By the way, the preposition ´de´ in Latin, as in modern Spanish can mean ´of´ as well as ´from´. ´From´ in Latin is usually ´ab´.

erm, as to :

Caualleria de Templum Salomonis = Cavalry from the Temple of Solomon

... well, it's a bad translation.

de Templum is "of the Temple" ; but Caualleria is not simply translated into English. French Chevalerie does it justice, but again, not easily translated.

Nothing in OED seems appropriate.

I'd probably translate it as "The Knighthood of Solomon's Temple", bearing in mind the loss in meaning of the proper religious, military, and social nature of their Company.

 

[lalaone]

Crosbie, for whatever it’s worth, it would be fun talking with you on the way. I mean that sincerely. Your cited sources were debatable and dubious, as you’ve acknowledged... Yet I agree with others that your disposition is admirable. This forum is a fount of knowledge: continually educational, often humblingly so. I do hope you’ll stick around to experience the same over time – it’s worth it! Here’s to a truly buen Camino.

 

[Former member 104756]

I agree with others that your disposition is admirable.

Like a lot of others, I think your ideas are 'interesting' - but give you a lot of credit for staying engaged and not getting personal or angrily defensive when the world (here anyway) disagrees with you.
That's doing well in my book.

I agree. You have shown great resilience. I see you will soon begin a camino. Hope all goes well. Buen camino.

 

[Crosbie]

Crosbie, for whatever it’s worth, it would be fun talking with you on the way. I mean that sincerely. Your cited sources were debatable and dubious, as you’ve acknowledged... Yet I agree with others that your disposition is admirable. This forum is a fount of knowledge: continually educational, often humblingly so. I do hope you’ll stick around to experience the same over time – it’s worth it! Here’s to a truly buen Camino.

Ahem. I cited none of my sources. The point of my original post was in pursuit of further knowledge regarding my suspicion of a connection between Hospitaliers/Templiers and the CdS. I did not set out to evangelise or argue 'the truth'. I did indicate my premises, to help others know where I was coming from.
A priori, from years of research, I know that:
1) Solomon's Temple did exist in the 9th century (prior, and throughout the Templar's guardianship).
2) Solomon's Temple was desecrated in the 9th century, which prompted the proto-Templars to respond militarily.
3) Being guardians of The Temple conferred The Templar's name.
4) The Holy Land is so called due to The Temple and The Holy of Holies within it, which is Holy because of The Ark it housed.
5) The Ark of The Covenant/Testimony is incredibly important.
6) Hospitaliers/Templiers are the missionaries of The Ark, with co-operation and support from The Vatican and other powers & principalities.

So, understanding their mission, it is not surprising that in addition to requiring military support (via crusades), they had to create/consolidate a secure network for those crusader/pilgrims, which thereafter served as a projection of their power, influence, and involvement in Europe's subsequent development, which they were interested in facilitating and promoting.

I suspect the Camino de Santiago (and all related pilgrimage routes) was some kind of vestige from this, and took on a life of its own - divorced from The Holy Land.

I'm also developing a theory about the origins of St.John/Jean/James/Iago - leaning toward Tetramorphic Apostle->Eagle/Scorpio.

 

[Kathor1]

That wasn't what we were told when we visited the castle. Certainly the vast bulk of the castle is from a later date. But I distinctly remember reading in the signage that the part of the castle in the picture below was what remained of the original Templar castle.
View attachment 154720

I don't recall this but it does not mean that I doubt it . Was that towards the end of the circuit? By that time, we could not absorb much anymore. When I visited the Castle of Ponferrada, I knew already that the pretty Cinderella castle (or should I call it Ivanhoe castle?) that figures on all the photos as Templar castle was not Templar material.

Neither was the "old" castle at the other end of the vast grounds which is essentially four huge walls without roof or floors and empty inside.

It was, however, a great experience to visit the Ponferrada castle. Standing on top of one of the towers, looking through the embrasure at various angles, imagining that a hostile army was approaching - oooh ... Or standing in the empty space of the old castle and imaging the busy medieval life. Or, if I remember correctly, reading about the workshops and living quarters on the castle grounds that have all disappeared ...

Much later, inspired and made curious through forum threads, I tried to find factual information about the Templar encomienda of Ponferrada but without great success. It was apparently rather small and did not serve for military purposes or for the protection of pilgrims on the road by patrolling it up and down or by providing escorts but had the usual economic/financial functions and tasks: dealing with income from properties and taxes raised in their name and on their behalf. 12th and 13th century Ponferrada was not immersed in the chaotic situation of the Holy Land.

 

[dick bird]

The point of my original post was in pursuit of further knowledge regarding my suspicion of a connection between Hospitaliers/Templiers and the CdS. I did not set out to evangelise or argue 'the truth'. I did indicate my premises, to help others know where I was coming from.

I hope you have checked the meaning of ´a priori´.

Let´s go back to your first post. You state there that the Templiers and Hospitaliers (sic) were founded in circa the 10th or 11th centuries, which is a pretty wide ball park. Most if not all reliable authorities are a little more precise in dating the founding of the Knights Templar to 1119 (12th century). Later, and in this post, you assert that the Templars were founded in the 9th century. So which is it? 9th, 10th, or 11th? or 12th?

You ask the question ´Is it possible..,. ?´ That is not a premise, it is a question and the answer to the question is obviously ´yes´ because anything is possible. What you don´t do is ask the question ´Is it plausible?´ and the answer to that question is ´no´ because there is nothing to support the proposition that follows..

Solomons´s Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 578 BCE.

The second temple was first built on the same site around 516 BCE, rebuilt by Herod the Second and destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. By the ninth century, there can´t have been much there to desecrate, but as it happens, in 167 BCE, Antiochus, formerly known as Mithridates, got there first and defiled the temple by sacrificing a pig to Zeus.

The Holy land is so-called by Christians because that´s where Jesus lived.

You openly admit to having cited none of your sources although you tell us you have conducted years of research. You have made a number of quite dramatic assertions without any logical or empirical basis. If you can´t produce at least one authoritative source or one solid piece of evidence, we are going to find it very difficult to take what you say seriously.

 

[Kathor1]

I wasn't planning to post more screenshots of medieval documents in Latin found on the internet but just can't keep this to myself . I'll try to make it short, it's about under which name the Templars in Jerusalem were known in their time and to their contemporaries living there.

Throughout history, most researchers have considered the Archbishop of Acre, William of Tyre, the most reliable source of information on the foundation of the Knights Templar. His book, The History of the Deeds Beyond the Sea, is a momentous work on the history of the Kingdom of Jerusalem up to 1180s A.D., and is credited as the most historically reliable work of that time. (It is a truly informative and delightful read, but it is not a history book as we know it today!) Undoubtedly, it contains many facts, but at times William was not afraid to emphasize his views on events and characters. I think it is important for today’s researcher to be aware of this epical and fabled form of recording historical accounts in those bygone times.​

He [William of Tyre] does not mention the Templars very often in his 1,200 page book. Still, he is the primary source of information on the foundation of the Order. Most modern authors quote William in giving the full title of this newly formed order as “The Poor Knights of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon.” Relying only on modern authors may sometimes be misleading, because this quotation is utterly wrong! In Volume I of The History of the Deeds Beyond the Sea William clearly names the order as the “Brethren of the Soldiery of the Temple, because, as we have said, they had their residence in the royal palace near the Temple of the Lord.”​

The original Latin text is online. It did not take me long to find a copy. This is what William of Tyre, chronicler of his time, wrote: They are called fratres militiae Templi. [Very literally: brothers / of the militia / of the Temple]. The Templum, as you can see in the very same sentence is the Templum Domini, the Temple of the Lord, the Temple of God.

No further comment other than "always look at the original source to be sure".

 

[Kathor1]

Apologies and thank you at the same time to @Bradypus!

Believe it or not, it had never occurred to me that in these days of advanced technology I could make use of an app on my iPad that I use for taking photos and uploading my medical receipts for reimbursement. It has an OCR function and works well with the earlier two Latin documents in the thread for a first quick and dirty translation as I now know - photo, conversion to text, Google Translate!

Unfortunately it works not so great with this third specimen because the visual text quality is not so great. But still useful to quickly spot the bit of text you've been looking for.

 

[JabbaPapa]

6) Hospitaliers/Templiers are the missionaries of The Ark, with co-operation and support from The Vatican and other powers & principalities.

This is too funny to ignore ...

The Order of the Knights Templar no longer exists, because it was dissolved in 1312 by Pope Clement V : ... it is not without bitterness and sadness of heart that we abolish the aforesaid Order of the Temple, and its constitution, habit and name, by an irrevocable and perpetually valid decree; and we subject it to perpetual prohibition with the approval of the Holy Council, strictly forbidding anyone to presume to enter the said Order in the future, or to receive or wear its habit, or to act as a Templar.

(Bad news for Tomás !!)

The secular Order of Christ in Portugal and The Supreme Order of Christ (which is the highest military distinction that can be given by a Pope) are the only genuine remnants of the order. BTW there are NO living members of the Supreme Order of Christ, the last such distinction having been given in the 1980s by Pope John Paul II.

They are not "missionaries of The Ark" because such "Templars" do not exist.

As to the Hospitallers, they persist as the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta, usually just called the Sovereign Order of Malta.

Not being a Marian Order, it has no particular doctrinal relationship with the Ark of the Covenant, though no doubt many Fras in the Order are devout in their Marian rites.

As to "co-operation and support" from The Vatican, perhaps that's something they'd rather do without nowadays, as these days it looks more like wrecking ball interference ...

There's not much about either the Ark of the Covenant or the Camino de Santiago on their website : https://www.orderofmalta.int/

The Camino is not even mentioned on its pilgrimages page, nor is Compostela : https://www.orderofmalta.int/about-the-order-of-malta/pilgrimages/

... though it does say :

For the Order of Malta, the spirit of pilgrimage dates from its foundation in the 11th Century; in its hospital in Jerusalem ailing pilgrims were cared for, as well as all who needed help. For centuries the Order has run hostels and first aid posts all over Europe to offer shelter and food to pilgrims. Allied to this is its mission to care for the poor and the sick. Order pilgrimages always include accompanying the sick, a sharing of love and care. It is a mission which distinguishes every pilgrimage. It is a life-giving experience.
Every year, members of the Order make pilgrimages to Catholic shrines around the world, together with their sick and handicapped guests.

They certainly organise many pilgrimages to Lourdes for the sick and handicapped.

And : The world’s most famous pilgrimage is to the Holy Land. From time to time, the Order organises an international pilgrimage of members, volunteers, helpers and handicapped guests. Jerusalem, central to the Christian faith, has also a special significance for the Order, as it was where Blessed Gerard founded the Order over 900 years ago. 
The next pilgrimage to the Holy Land will take place during the second week of November 2020 [sic]. The Order of Malta’s last historic gathering in the Holy Land was in October 2007, when 1,400 pilgrims coming from 20 countries visited Nazareth, Bethlehem and the Sea of Galilee.

The Spirituality of the Order is described here : https://www.orderofmalta.int/about-the-order-of-malta/spiritual-commitment/

No need for fantasies ; the Order is devoted to the Beatitudes, and NOT the Ark.

 

[Crosbie]

Let´s go back to your first post. You state there that the Templiers and Hospitaliers (sic) were founded in circa the 10th or 11th centuries, which is a pretty wide ball park. Most if not all reliable authorities are a little more precise in dating the founding of the Knights Templar to 1119 (12th century). Later, and in this post, you assert that the Templars were founded in the 9th century. So which is it? 9th, 10th, or 11th? or 12th?

I said "It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries."

That is a 'seems', not a certainty - and I meant 'formation' as in a continued development from their earliest origins - not as in 'founded'.

The history books will have their various dates for when these organisations were officially recognised - or estimated to have arisen/originated.

Your claim that I "assert that the Templars were founded in the 9th century" is inaccurate.

I said "The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century."

That they can be traced back to the 9th century is a certainty in my book, and, for what little it's worth, is corroborated by the link provided by Kathar1na (Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles): https://www.templiers.net/etudes/index.php?page=Ordres-Temple-Hopital-Chemins-Compostelle ).

The Holy land is so-called by Christians because that´s where Jesus lived.

That's the sort of thing taught in Sunday school, i.e. completely wrong.

 

[Crosbie]

This is what William of Tyre, chronicler of his time, wrote: They are called fratres militiae Templi. [Very literally: brothers / of the militia / of the Temple]. The Templum, as you can see in the very same sentence is the Templum Domini, the Temple of the Lord, the Temple of God.

Well done.

Yes, Templum Domini, is yet another name for Solomon's Temple.

Similarly, The Ark of the Covenant is also known as The Ark of God.

If you keep this up, in a few years you'll know what I know... ;-)

 

[Kathor1]

that they can be traced back to the 9th century is a certainty in my book, and, for what little it's worth, is corroborated by the link provided by Kathar1na (Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles):

Ah-ah-ah, you are doing it again: bad discussion move - twisting a quote and grossly distorting the context, whether knowingly and intentionally or not, I can't say. It's yet another non-sequitur fallacy.

The text in question is:

Attesté depuis le IXe siècle, l'essor du pèlerinage à Compostelle est exactement contemporain de la naissance des deux grands ordres militaires en Terre sainte, puisque c'est dans les années 1100-1120 que l'archevêque Diego Gelmirez lui donne une impulsion définitive.​

​

The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela has been attested since the 9th century. Well-known. The boom of the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela took place in the period of the 11th-12th centuries. Well-known. Diego Gelmirez who lived from about 1068-1140 gave the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela a major impulse during his job as archbishop in the 12th century. More than well-known. Knights Templars and Knights Hospitallers were founded in the Holy Land in the 12th century. More than well-known.

Not a word of a Solomon temple and its existence or non-existence. Let alone a word of the Knights Templars being in existence since the 9th century.

Just drop these discussion twists and tricks. You are not winning any cigars. This discussion method relies on readers not scrolling back to what had been said earlier and on not clicking on links. I do both.

​

 

[Crosbie]

The text in question is:

Attesté depuis le IXe siècle, l'essor du pèlerinage à Compostelle est exactement contemporain de la naissance des deux grands ordres militaires en Terre sainte, puisque c'est dans les années 1100-1120 que l'archevêque Diego Gelmirez lui donne une impulsion définitive.​

​

The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela has been attested since the 9th century. Well-known.

It is well known that the SdC has been attested since the 9th century?

Well, well. That ties up.

'Corroborate' doesn't necessarily mean 'saying the exact same thing'.

'Attested since the 9th century' and 'Since the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830' corroborate, to some extent, my position that the Templars (Guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century. We can argue as to the nature of the relics (from the desecration) and the nature of the pilgrims on the pilgrimage that was attested since then, another day.

Not a word of a Solomon temple and its existence or non-existence. Let alone a word of the Knights Templars being in existence since the 9th century.

Solomon's Temple is just a common name for the Temple in question. It is immaterial whether it's called God's Temple or Solomon's.

And the Knight's Templar aren't quite the same thing as the Templars, as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple. The latter begat the former.

 

[Tincatinker]

The internet gambling companies, purveyors of fantasy all, are compelled to place the phrase "Stop when the fun stops" in their promotions.

The phrase seems apposite here.

 

[Kathor1]

That is the point where I despair:

Author writes: Birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land.​

Poster writes: This corrobates my certainty that they can be traced back to the 9th century​

Other poster writes: The author does not say that.​

Poster replies: The Knights Templars are not the same thing as the Templars. The Templars begat the Knights Templars.​

Sure, in alternative history books. BUT THE AUTHOR DOES NOT SAY THAT. THE LINK THAT I PROVIDED TO THE AUTHOR DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Apologies, people, usually I do not react and let it roll off my back like water rolls off the duck's back. But lately I notice that my forum name is needlessly quoted and appears to be used in quotes like an endorsement for weird stuff. It forces me to reply in order to set the record straight although I don't want to participate. And I don't like it.

 

[Kirkie]

That is the point where I despair:

Author writes: Birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land.​

Poster writes: This corrobates my certainty that they can be traced back to the 9th century​

Other poster writes: The author does not say that.​

Poster replies: The Knights Templars are not the same thing as the Templars. The Templars begat the Knights Templars.​

Sure, in alternative history books. BUT THE AUTHOR DOES NOT SAY THAT. THE LINK THAT I PROVIDED TO THE AUTHOR DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Apologies, people, usually I do not react and let it roll off my back like water rolls off the duck's back. But lately I notice that my forum name is needlessly quoted and appears to be used in quotes like an endorsement for weird stuff. It forces me to reply in order to set the record straight although I don't want to participate. And I don't like it.

Well done, and thank you. This thread is perplexing to me. I am not logical by inclination, and cannot argue in a proper sense, not in the sense of aggressive argumentation, but debating respectfully. I never doubt your integrity or honest research and sharing of knowledge.

 

[Kirkie]

I can't be bothered looking for the post, but someone asked what is wrt. I actually have learned from this forum to look up stuff before asking such a question. When I finally did that with the weird title of the thread, I just asked myself again, why on earth do people not just type a word instead of using a shorthand that is not self explanatory? In my childhood, and as a young Primary school teacher, our bible was a book called First Aid in English. Then the list of abbreviations was more or less complete. I do not recall wrt as part of the lexicon.

 

[Kathor1]

Thank you for your earlier comment, @Kirkie.

I like to share something I found, and I am more interested in doing that than winning arguments. So you can find a book, written 900 years ago, online, and read it at home or at least a bit of it. No need to buy it, no need to travel to a uni library to read it in their reading room or ask for a distance loan. No need to take a quote of a quote of a quote for what had actually been said or been written such a long time ago. Isn't that exciting?

You happen to stumble upon a good example that illustrates that authors of solidly sound books can make minor mistakes that get repeated over and over in other similarly sound books. Not surprising, a modern author cannot check every minuscule detail in every original source, especially not when it just serves to provide an overview or an introduction to the main topic, to help the reader see context. My main point.

And then, second but minor point, doesn't one wonder, okay, so this 12th century militia outfit was not known with the word "Solomon" in their name, at least not to this contemporary author who was an archbispop in the same area no less, where did the reference to Solomon in their name then come from, from when onwards and by whom was it used then? Isn't that what an inquiring mind would think and want to know? Instead, an illogical baseless repetitive reply.

This needed to be said to clear the air.

 

[Kirkie]

Thank you for your earlier comment, @Kirkie.

I like to share something I found and I am more interested in doing that than winning arguments. So you can find a book, written 900 years ago, online, and read it at home or at least a bit of it. No need to buy it, no need to travel to a uni library to read it in their reading room or ask for a distance loan. No need to take a quote of a quote of a quote for what had actually been said or been written such a long time ago. Isn't that exciting?

You find a good example that shows that authors of solidly sound books can make minor mistakes that get repeated over and over in other similarly sound books. Not surprising, a modern author cannot check every minute detail in every original source, especially not when it just serves to give an overview or an introduction to the main topic, to help the reader see context. My main point.

And then, second but minor point, doesn't one wonder, okay, so this 12th century outfit was not known with the word "Solomon" in their title, at least not to this contemporary author, where did the reference to Solomon in their title then come from, from when onwards and by whom was it used then? Isn't that what an inquiring mind would think? Instead, an illogical baseless repetitive reply.

This needed to be said to clear the air.

I appreciate the clarity of such as yourself. Thanks. I am better with a yard brush than a sleuth's narrowed eyes and inquisitive mind! I am serious. We each have our gifts, and the wonderful moments of genuine searching and sharing here make it worthwhile, don't they?

 

[Kathor1]

I do like and enjoy reading witty remarks. And the ones with a emoji in them.

 

[Crosbie]

That is the point where I despair:

Author writes: Birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land.​

Poster writes: This corrobates my certainty that they can be traced back to the 9th century​

By mischievous justaposition you are insinuating that my statement refers to the previous one. That is a misrepresentation.

Kathar1na, you seem to be arguing to win, by fair means or foul, as opposed to arguing in pursuit of knowledge.

It is becoming clear that the initial 'pilgrimage' directly arose from the discovery of the Ark of The Covenant, when the proto-Templars discovered it (forcibly opened) during their assessment of the extent of the desecration committed in the 9th century. Hence the dating of the relics at 830AD.

From: https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/

*Nine Years Excavating the Temple* – Many historians concluded that the
first Knights Templar essentially stayed underground deep within the
Temple of Solomon, mostly not resurfacing except to send for supplies,
for several years:

“The Templars’ apparent lack of activity in their formative years, seems
to have been due to some form of covert project beneath the Temple of
Solomon or nearby, an operation that could not be revealed to any but a
few high-ranking Nobles.” [*32*] [*33*]

University historians confirmed that the founding Knights Templar
conducted archaeological excavation of the Temple of Solomon for a full
nine years [*34*].

Prior to the desecration, the existence of the Ark of the Covenant (and the Holy of Holies) was generally unknown - and I suspect, completely unknown.

The phenomenal nature of The Ark will be extremely attractive to anyone able to appreciate its import.

It is possible that some relics were transported to Santiago, but these would be insignificant compared to a visit to the Temple to see the Ark itself.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It is immaterial whether it's called God's Temple or Solomon's.

Then why do you get excited about this distinction ?

And the Knight's Templar aren't quite the same thing as the Templars

riiiiiiigggghhhht, ad let's pretend that Lutèce and Paris refer to two different places.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It is becoming clear that the initial 'pilgrimage' directly arose from the discovery of the Ark of The Covenant, when the proto-Templars discovered it (forcibly opened) during their assessment of the extent of the desecration committed in the 9th century. Hence the dating of the relics at 830AD.

What a load of bollox.

I have already quoted an extract of a 5th Century Pilgrimage journal having exactly nothing to do with your weird fantasies.

 

[alexwalker]

It is becoming clear that the initial 'pilgrimage' directly arose from the discovery of the Ark of The Covenant, when the proto-Templars discovered it (forcibly opened) during their assessment of the extent of the desecration committed in the 9th century. Hence the dating of the relics at 830AD.

This has been a very entertaining thread, but I am afraid that if I should agree with you, then we would be two that are wrong.

Don't close this thread, pleace

 

[JabbaPapa]

Don't close this thread

It's absolute nonsense start to finish, and is pretty much the direct opposite of being useful to pilgrims.

 

[trecile]

It's absolute nonsense start to finish, and is pretty much the direct opposite of being useful to pilgrims.

Thankfully, no one is obligated to read and respond to every thread on the forum.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Thankfully, no one is obligated to read and respond to every thread on the forum.

This does not justify the publication of pure fabrications into this place that are liable to directly mislead pilgrims, and put false ideas into their heads.

 

[Kirkie]

This does not justify the publication of pure fabrications into this place that are liable to directly mislead pilgrims, and put false ideas into their heads.

Actually, it would not put a false idea into my head. It is way outside my range of important issues.

 

[C clearly]

This does not justify the publication of pure fabrications into this place that are liable to directly mislead pilgrims, and put false ideas into their heads.

I somewhat agree with the general argument against allowing pure fabrications on the forum. However, the real facts about the original hypothesis are very few, and I think that the forum members (including you) have made a very strong case that should dissuade future pilgrims from being misled. It has been somewhat informative for those who are interested in the topic, and has been an interesting exposé of the weaknesses of much historical "research."

 

[dick bird]

I said "It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries."

That is a 'seems', not a certainty - and I meant 'formation' as in a continued development from their earliest origins - not as in 'founded'.

So, not a certainty then? In which case, any line of reasoning based on that premise is unsound, which means that just about everything you have said in this thread is, by your own admission, implausible,

As for how an organisation can be formed without having first been founded, one can only guess. Normally only things which actually exist can be formed.

corroborated by the link provided by Kathar1na

I think you might have misunderstood this sentence:

Attesté depuis le IXe siècle, l'essor du pèlerinage à Compostelle est exactement contemporain de la naissance des deux grands ordres militaires en Terre sainte, puisque c'est dans les années 1100-1120 que l'archevêque Diego Gelmirez lui donne une impulsion définitive.
(Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus.)

Which is, admittedly slightly ambiguous in both French and English but it is essentially saying that the rise in pilgrimage to Compostela occurred at about the same time as the founding of the Knights Templar and Hospitaller, i.e. 1100 - 1120. The reference to the ninth century, however, clearly applies to the pilgrimage to Compostela and its rise, not the founding of the 'two great military orders'. That doesn't corroborate the founding of the Templars (or the Hospitallers) in anybody´s book.

And wrt to Sunday schools, are you saying that everything taught in Sunday schools is wrong?

 

[dick bird]

pure fabrications into this place that are liable to directly mislead pilgrims, and put false ideas into their heads.

Frankly, I don´t think there is any great danger of this happening.

 

[henrythedog]

The internet gambling companies, purveyors of fantasy all, are compelled to place the phrase "Stop when the fun stops" in their promotions.

The phrase seems apposite here.

And the manufacturers of well known salty snacks have to state ‘Caution: May contain nuts’

I’m strangely finding much of the above interesting.

(Edit: apologies)

 

[peregrina2000]

And the manufacturers of well known salty snacks have to state ‘Caution: May contain nuts’

I’m strangely finding much of the above interesting.

The internet gambling companies, purveyors of fantasy all, are compelled to place the phrase "Stop when the fun stops" in their promotions.

The phrase seems apposite here.

I don’t think ridicule is a good way to go on the forum, no matter what you think of the theories and arguments being presented here.

I also think some forum members could use a good dose of self-control and self-restraint. Make your case, lay out your sources, and then stop participating in a debate that is not going to convince either side that the other is right.

 

[dick bird]

The Temple of Solomon was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BC. The chances of the Ark of the Covenant surviving that event, assuming it to have existed in the first place, are just about zero. If it survived and was then stored in the Second Temple it would have been destroyed along with the Second Temple. The Romans, a thorough lot, would have made sure of that. There is no Ark of the Covenant.

 

[alexwalker]

Interesting:

Ark of the Covenant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And the idea ia still alive in Ethiopa.

 

[Bradypus]

And the idea ia still alive in Ethiopa.

Very much so. In addition to the claimed original Ark in the church in Axum there are representations of it as carved tablets called tabot in Ethiopian churches. Treated with great reverence and always veiled from public sight. A friend of mine discovered one which had been looted in colonial times and was gathering dust in a church cupboard in Edinburgh. As a very bright spark who knew something about the Ethiopian church John recognised it and its significance and arranged for its repatriation to Ethiopia. A national holiday was declared for its homecoming and thousands lined the streets for its arrival.

Ethiopian Tabot returned by Edinburgh Church

Because Reverend John McLuckie had visited Ethiopia as a student, he was able to identify and grasp the true significance of a wooden plaque he discovered in 2001 in a Scottish Episcopal church in Edinburgh.

www.returningheritage.com

 

[lt56ny]

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

I just saw this post and sorry I did not respond sooner. I think you would be very interested in listening to this podcast:

The Scholarly Pilgrim Podcast with John Seasholtz

History of the people, the places and the power dynamics along the medieval Camino de Santiago

scholarlypilgrim.com

Go to this website to learn about the podcast or go directly to download it on your phone or device. It is a treasure trove of information about medieval pilgrimage to Santiago. It goes all the way back to the start of the pilgrimage to Santiago. I think you would really like it.

 

[David Tallan]

It is becoming clear that the initial 'pilgrimage' directly arose from the discovery of the Ark of The Covenant, when the proto-Templars discovered it (forcibly opened) during their assessment of the extent of the desecration committed in the 9th century. Hence the dating of the relics at 830AD.

I don't think it is becoming clear to anyone but you.

I'm not sure which "pilgrimage" you mean by "the initial 'pilgrimage'". The initial pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela? Some pilgrimage to Jerusalem? Nor is it clear what desecration you are discussing that presumably took place in the 9th century and where it took place. As Dick Bird points out, the desecration of the Temple happened many centuries before the 9th. In the 9th Century, there no longer was a Temple in Jerusalem to desecrate, it having been destroyed in 70 AD. Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land were not focused on visiting the Temple, but on the churches built around the holy ditrs related to Christ's Passoon.

Nor is it clear what relics you are talking about at the end of the quote above.

The initial pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is well documented not to have arisen from a discovery of the Ark of the Covenant, but rather a discovery of the remains of St. James. It is the discovery of the relics of St. James that has been dated to 830 AD (or at least between 818 and 842).

Are you suggesting that there was another discovery, of the Ark of the Covenant, also made in the 9th Century? Do you believe that discovery to have been made in Galicia? Or elsewhere?

If by "initial pilgrimage" you are not speaking of the pilgrimage of Alfonso II to the relics of St. James, but of some other, earlier pilgrimage that set a model for future pilgrimages, I would humbly submit the date to look at is far before the 9th Century and at least as far back as the pilgrimages to Jerusalem that ended at the Temples of Solomon or Herod.

Really, I think nothing is becoming clear. Things are just becoming murkier as a whole bunch of phrases are thrown around that don't seem to have much to do with each other.

 

[dick bird]

it is becoming clear

David, this is part of Crosbie´s style. If you look through his posts you will find well over a dozen uses of expressions like 'It seems', 'It is possible that', 'I suggest', 'No doubt' etc etc. This kind of language is appropriate when discussing inferences and deductions but when basic premises are hedged in this way, the conclusions are pretty well invalidated.

 

[Kirkie]

I don't think it is becoming clear to anyone but you.

I'm not sure which "pilgrimage" you mean by "the initial 'pilgrimage'". The initial pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela? Some pilgrimage to Jerusalem? Nor is it clear what desecration you are discussing that presumably took place in the 9th century and where it took place. As Dick Bird points out, the desecration of the Temple happened many centuries before the 9th. In the 9th Century, there no longer was a Temple in Jerusalem to desecrate, it having been destroyed in 70 AD. Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land were not focused on visiting the Temple, but on the churches built around the holy ditrs related to Christ's Passoon.

Nor is it clear what relics you are talking about at the end of the quote above.

The initial pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is well documented not to have arisen from a discovery of the Ark of the Covenant, but rather a discovery of the remains of St. James. It is the discovery of the relics of St. James that has been dated to 830 AD (or at least between 818 and 842).

Are you suggesting that there was another discovery, of the Ark of the Covenant, also made in the 9th Century? Do you believe that discovery to have been made in Galicia? Or elsewhere?

If by "initial pilgrimage" you are not speaking of the pilgrimage of Alfonso II to the relics of St. James, but of some other, earlier pilgrimage that set a model for future pilgrimages, I would humbly submit the date to look at is far before the 9th Century and at least as far back as the pilgrimages to Jerusalem that ended at the Temples of Solomon or Herod.

Really, I think nothing is becoming clear. Things are just becoming murkier as a whole bunch of phrases are thrown around that don't seem to have much to do with each other.

Really, I think nothing is becoming clear. Things are just becoming murkier as a whole bunch of phrases are thrown around that don't seem to have much to do with each other.

I agree, David. Nothing is becoming clear. A leather hide deflects all arrows. This comment is not meant to be ironic or sarcastic. I just cannot fathom the resilience of the op to the incredulity of so many earnest responders. It is futile, in my opinion, to offer a reply. There is no evidence of direct engagement. I once did an online course from a New Zealand university on Logical and Critical thinking. Hmm. There I learned about this and that kind of fallacy etc. Not well enough to engage in this thread.
The Op is about to set off ona camino. May he soak it all up. Caminos leave traces. Every step of the way. Each pilgrim leaves a trace. Imagine that! Isn't it amazing! Those on camino now, be aware. You receive what another has left for you, and you leave something for one after you. Honour that.

 

[Crosbie]

Looking into the name 'Santiago de Compostela', per Wikipedia:

At some point between 818 and 842,[18] during the reign of Alfonso II of Asturias,[19][20] bishop Theodemar of Iria (d. 847) claimed to have found some remains which were attributed to Saint James the Greater.

Around the place of the discovery a new settlement and centre of pilgrimage emerged, which was known to the author Usuard in 865[23] and which was called Compostella by the 10th century.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_de_Compostela#History

The 818-842 estimate ties in with 'invention of relics in 830', and with the Temple's desecration earlier in the 9th century.

The question is, why there? Either some relics of the Temple had travelled that way (by robbers and/or Templars) or it was part of a gambit to deflect attention from Solomon's Temple and/or the Holy Land. This can be compared to the contemporaneous Islamic deflection from Solomon's Temple to Mecca (Saudi Arabia). However, SdC didn't obtain quite the draw that was achieved with Mecca.

Anyway, it is entirely due to the relics, that the bishopric became known as SdC.

Note that the 'remains which were attributed to Saint James the Greater' will be relics of The Temple (not the remains/bones of an actual person called St. James).

Saint James the Greater aka Saint Iago (from Iacob - Jacob) is an apostle esoterically associated with the Sagittarius constellation (field of stars - Campus Stellae - Compostela).

It's not easy to connect that with Solomon's Temple.

However, I could connect John the Evangelist, who symbolises the Zodiacal quadrant of Scorpio-Libra-Virgo. But, that St. James is known as the brother of St. John, doesn't provide a very satisfying link.

Perhaps the relics were attributed to St.James because he was seen to be God's messenger/witness - a characteristic comparable to that of The Ark of The Covenant.

Any ideas?

As for the Temple being named as that of 'Solomon', we have:

Solomon <= Shalem (viz God)

Jerusalem <= Place of Shalem <= Place of God (or The Gods)

 

[Crosbie]

This snippet looks promising:

In the Old Testament Jacob constructed an altar for God naming it Bethel, which means "House of God" (Gen. 35:7). Jacob is a Greek name, and translated to Spanish, the name means James. Jacob constructed the "House of God,” and St. James parallels his namesake with the construction of the first "House of God” of the New Covenant.

That's looking like the best candidate so far - to connect SdC to Solomon's Temple.

Jacob constructed Solomon's Temple aka God's Temple.

Relics recovered from the desecration thereof, become relics from Jacob's Temple - or Relics of Jacob.

 

[C clearly]

I think we have come full circle.

I am really not much interested in Templar history but I find this thread fascinating in how it reveals different ways people think and "learn."

The question is, why there? Either some relics of the Temple had travelled that way... or it was part of a gambit to deflect attention from Solomon's Temple and/or the Holy Land.

Either (a) or (b)? No! Either (a) or any one of many explanations that you don't present.

But here is where I could use some help in seeing the logic pattern...

It's not easy to connect

However, I could connect

to connect SdC to Solomon's Temple.

"Connecting" is not cause and effect
Is "connection" a logic thing?
I suspect there is lots of discussion somewhere about how the concept of "connection" leads to odd theories about how the world works.

 

[Crosbie]

Either (a) or (b)? No! Either (a) or any one of many explanations that you don't present.

Ok, for completeness, it may have been better to use 'and/or' instead of just 'or'.

If I had a (c), I would have mentioned it.

But here is where I could use some help in seeing the logic pattern...
"Connecting" is not cause and effect
Is "connection" a logic thing?

'Connect' in the sense of 'find a relationship between', which could be, but is not necessarily causative.

 

[grayland]

Like I said (supra #24), more fun than a barrel full of monkeys!

Wait.....is there any evidence that the Templars used barrels of monkeys to disguise their secret doings?

 

[C clearly]

Ok, for completeness, it may have been better to use 'and/or' instead of just 'or'.

If I had a (c), I would have mentioned it.

No, changing to "and/or" would not have changed the essential error in logic, which was to ignore all the (c), (d), (e), (f), etc. options.

You could easily create a (c) alternative answer to why the relics were wherever they were. The fact that we haven't articulated a (c) does not mean that the answer is necessarily "either (a) and/or (b)".

With these differences in logic and how we try to explain the world around us, I don't see much hope in resolving the original question of the thread. I am happy to admit that there are many many things I simply don't know or understand.

 

[Crosbie]

No, changing to "and/or" would not have changed the essential error in logic, which was to ignore all the (c), (d), (e), (f), etc. options.

Having been a software engineer for half a century, I may have come acrosss this 'logic' of which you speak.

As I said, if there had been other options, I would have mentioned them. Ipso facto, there is no error in logic.

Let's not let this petty foray into semantics and logic distract from the substance of my posts #179 & #180.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Saint James the Greater aka Saint Iago (from Iacob - Jacob) is an apostle esoterically associated with the Sagittarius constellation (field of stars - Campus Stellae - Compostela).

It's not easy to connect that with Solomon's Temple.

However, I could connect John the Evangelist, who symbolises the Zodiacal quadrant of Scorpio-Libra-Virgo.

This is complete nonsense.

Western Spirituality and Mysticism are pretty much 100% antithetical to this sort of fake pseudo New Age nonsensicality.

Everyone in here who really *knows* what it is to be a Pilgrim of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, or the Holy Sepulchre is absent any "need" of this sort of fantasy scribblings.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Having been a software engineer for half a century, I may have come acrosss this 'logic' of which you speak.

Boolean logic is a very poor substitute for thought as such.

 

[lalaone]

If the question is where the relics originated / were rediscovered from the years 800 AD, there are many options c, d, and e! Some can be explored in the following book by a medievalist at Princeton University about the theft of relics. There was widespread theft and relocation from tombs, churches, and Roman catacombs (in addition to rediscoveries.) It's an enormously interesting subject. The author does not focus specifically on the relics of Saint James - although the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is central to many accounts and there are lots of interesting stories about the Way in France in particular. Sorry to say, Crosbie, the Temple of Solomon figures nowhere! (I revisited my copy.) So maybe one way to start would be eliminating other logical possibilities before exploring new ones, such as the proposition that these relics came from Solomon's Temple? (A wild proposition to most)

Amazon.com

 

[JabbaPapa]

Looking into the name 'Santiago de Compostela', per Wikipedia:


Saint James the Greater aka Saint Iago (from Iacob - Jacob) is an apostle esoterically associated with the Sagittarius constellation (field of stars - Campus Stellae - Compostela).

As a matter of fact, this sort of claim is entirely pagan and has no relevance to the Apostle of Christ Saint James.

It is a destructive claim seeking to wreck the Christian Tradition.

 

[JabbaPapa]

And I seriously think that this thread should be locked, because of OPs attempts to provoke discussion of religion and/or "spirituality". Which, really, is trolling.

 

[trecile]

Saint James the Greater aka Saint Iago (from Iacob - Jacob) is an apostle esoterically associated with the Sagittarius constellation (field of stars - Campus Stellae - Compostela).

It's certainly a romantic idea, but it's actually unlikely that Compostela derives from Campus Stellae.

"Santiago is the local Galician evolution of Vulgar Latin Sanctus Iacobus "Saint James". According to legend, Compostela derives from the Latin: Campus Stellae ('field of the star'); it seems unlikely, however, that this phrase could have yielded the modern Compostela under normal evolution from Latin to Medieval Galician.

Other etymologies derive the name from Latin: compositum; local Vulgar Latin Composita Tella, meaning 'burial ground'; or simply from Latin: compositella, meaning "the well-composed one". Other sites in Galicia share this toponym, akin to Compostilla in the province of León."
Source: Wikipedia

 

[C clearly]

Having been a software engineer for half a century, I may have come acrosss this 'logic' of which you speak.

As I said, if there had been other options, I would have mentioned them. Ipso facto, there is no error in logic.

Let's not let this petty foray into semantics and logic distract from the substance of my posts #179 & #180.

OK, I admit I am an amateur in this, but my questions were not a petty foray. They were trying to get at the root of some apparent lack of understanding of the substance of your posts. I certainly am having trouble, and I'm likely not the only one!

In software logic, you can certainly force one to choose either (a) or (b), and not offer a (c). However, if your options are not properly formulated, your results will be flawed and you won't know why, even though your programming may be perfect.

You might ask "Do you wear shoes or boots on the Camino?" The results will indicate that X% wear shoes and (100-X)% wear boots. It would be wrong to conclude that no one wears sandals.

This is analogous to your question

The question is, why there? Either some relics of the Temple had travelled that way... or it was part of a gambit to deflect attention...

People are trying to say that other explanations - (c), (d), etc. - are equally or more plausible and should be considered.

 

[JabbaPapa]

You might ask "Do you wear shoes or boots on the Camino?" The results will indicate that X% wear shoes and (100-X)% wear boots. It would be wrong to conclude that no one wears sandals.

It goes far beyond that.

The deeper flaws involve supposing that aesthetics could be systematically reduced to data.

 

[C clearly]

The deeper flaws involve supposing that aesthetics could be systematically reduced to data.

Hmmm. I will need to ponder that!

 

[alexwalker]

...
You might ask "Do you wear shoes or boots on the Camino?" The results will indicate that X% wear shoes and (100-X)% wear boots. It would be wrong to conclude that no one wears sandals.

Boolean does not always work: Consider asking a person the following question:

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no" .

Says a SW engineer with +49 years experience...

 

[Kirkie]

Imagine, almost 76 and poor old Boole has escaped me till now. I am about to let him off into cyberspace in just a moment..but for anyone interested,

How Boolean Logic Works

Boolean logic is the key to many of a computer's most mysterious and human-like functions, from playing chess to balancing a checkbook. How do "AND," "NOT" and "OR" make such amazing things possible?

computer.howstuffworks.com

(I never did appreciate my dad showing me how to do my maths homework rather than do it for me)

 

[malingerer]

People don't stand on street corners, distributing pamphlets saying: "The sun's rising, The sun's rising". Those that do are not trying to convince others.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If not walking from your front door, then perhaps start in Le Puy, or Vezelay.

Buen Camino

PS: Ancient Greeks and early Christians knew the earth was a sphere. Plato wrote about a spherical Earth. This myth was created in the 17th century by Protestants to argue against Catholic teachings.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a .....

then its due for sauce a la orange

Samarkand.

 

[Kathor1]

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/boolean.htm

Well, @Kirkie, if you participate then I will participate, too . That is certainly a useful link, one can always learn something new. But I think we can let Mr. Boole rest in peace (he may be rotating right now for all I know). It is much more down your alley if I may say so. Common sense and clear-eyed. I am always happy to be corrected of course but that's what I see on my computer screen:

Prologue: Invention of relics in 830.
[I trust that everybody knows what invention de reliques (FR) / inventio reliquarum (Latin) is.]​

​

Question: Why there? [meaning why in Santiago]​

​

Multiple choice answers (more than one answer possible):​

a) some relics of the Temple had travelled that way (by robbers and/or Templars)​

b) it was part of a gambit to deflect attention from Solomon's Temple and/or the Holy Land​

And that is it.

Now somebody may say that there are other answers to this question. Somebody may even know other answers. Yep, somebody may know other answers and may say them. But it won't be me.

 

[Crosbie]

Here's some bedtime reading for those interested in romantic notions of a connection between Saint James the Greater Apostle, and the Zodiacal constellation of Sagittarius (Campo Stellae, or not): https://www.uv.es/~fores/OrlinLena.uk.html

It is rather academic, given Jacob (Iacob -> Iago) is otherwise indicated as the builder of The Temple.

 

[dick bird]

As I said, if there had been other options, I would have mentioned them. Ipso facto, there is no error in logic.

¨When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.¨
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed in fairies.

There may be no error in logic, but logic is only as good as the premises it is based on.

Or, as the Spartans said to the Athenians 'If'.