Thank You Martin Sheen (not really!)

[scruffy1]

(W)e are also witnessing a prolification of English grafitti trashing the Camino where ever you look. Sure there has always been such along the Camino but today 85% is all inEnglish, Please, bretheren, leave your markers at home, there is far too much English scribbled everywhere now, do nçt need anymore!

Edited by moderator to remove offensive references to a particular nationality

 

[galliano]

Everybody from every part of the world write these things in english, so I don't think it's right to blame.... Please let this thread die in silence.

Edited by Moderator

 

[Sheffield James]

Everybody from every part of the world write these things in english, so I don't think it's right to blame . Please let this thread die in silence.

Agreed

 

[MTtoCamino]

I figured it was the local kids. As it was everywhere on the Francis in 2014. It is not an issue most places in the U.S.
Scruffy what year did it start? Just curious because it really distracts from the historical beauty. Most of us have some age on us the last thing we would even think of.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Sure there has always been such along the Camino but today 85% is all inEnglish

English has been dominant on the Camino since the early 1990s

 

[AJ]

Moderators!!! Why has this inflammatory post not been deleted?

Answer - because no-one hit the "report" button!

Edited by Moderator

 

[Urban Trekker]

Its not Martin Sheens movie, its his son Emilio Esteves movie, he wrote is and produced it. ..... There are a lot of English speaking people walking the camino. ..... The only thing I leave behind is foot prints and I try to leave damn few of thoses. Buem Camino

Edited by Moderator

 

[Damien Reynolds]

Whenever I write graffiti I write it in English, the kind from New Zealand, because they are the coolest people I've met on the Camino so far.

 

[Kuznitz]

Moderators!!! Why has this inflammatory post not been deleted?

Agreed.

 

[MileHighPair]

Just lost all respect for the OP. Does he really think that pilgrims are responsible for graffiti along the Camimo? I suppose I should not be drawn into this discussion, but truly unbelievable!

 

[Anniesantiago]

I don't know.
I sort of agree with Scruffy.
......
And why would you delete the thread????


Edited by Moderator

 

[roblsch]

and the Full Moon isn't here until next Tuesday

 

[Damien Reynolds]

OMG Annie! Seriously? We all know that the biggest PITA are the [insert your own prejudices] themselves... they think they own the place! (I have participated in this thread as only to add ironic humor. I love all peregrinos, like minded individuals, can't we all just get along?)

Edited by moderator

 

[whariwharangi]

That is too funny. I've never seen a nation as Spain so cursed with graffiti on every available surface.

Edited by Moderator

 

[MTtoCamino]

Let's move past the insult & discuss the issue. The graffiti is horrible we can all agree to that, so let's concentrate on a solution. So when we see someone doing this say something. I would love to grab their ear but that would put a person in jail.

 

[Kuznitz]

I don't know.
I sort of agree with Scruffy.

And why would you delete the thread????

Because it is unnecessarily offensive and prejudice. If you want to discourage graffiti, say so. There is no need to single out one of the many English speaking nationalities.

Edited by Moderator

 

[Anniesantiago]

Because it is unnecessarily offensive and prejudice. If you want to discourage graffiti, say so. There is no need to single out one of the many English speaking nationalities.

Being THAT politically correct takes up more energy than I have.
Seems pretty silly to me.
I'm American and speak English.
I live in Portland, Oregon and there, we still have Freedom of Speech.

I say, "If the shoe fits . . .!"

And yes, how do we address it?
I'd say if we see anyone doing it, we need to tell them to STOP!
And perhaps try to educate them on things their parents should have taught them before they were old enough to walk the Camino alone!

 

[Damien Reynolds]

Ok, well, if we are to discuss the actual issue I must confess, I actually enjoy reading the grafitti in the underpasses, on the stop signs, on the occasional bench on the side of the trail. Its not like the stuff I see here in LA where turf is being claimed and lives threatened, usually its kind of uplifting... like "Don't Stop" or "I love Maria." , or poems even. Yes they are in English - at least the ones I can read. On the way into Santiago there is that whole "Imagine" thread written everywhere about the John Lennon song... Markers don't bother as much as spray cans. Much more of that observed on the cab ride from MAD to Atocha then on the path itself.

 

[Anniesantiago]

That is too funny. I've never seen a nation as Spain so cursed with graffiti on every available surface. You attribute the curse of it to the wrong people; its done for the locals by the locals.

I agree it's done by all nationalities - but I can only condemn my own countrymen and women!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Because it is unnecessarily offensive and prejudice. If you want to discourage graffiti, say so. There is no need to single out one of the many English speaking nationalities.

I'm curious what languages have YOU seen used in graffiti when you were walking the Camino, Kuznitz, besides Spanish and English?

 

[Anniesantiago]

OMG Annie! Seriously? We all know that the biggest PITA are the Spanish themselves... they think they own the place! (I have participated in this thread as only to add ironic humor. I love all peregrinos, like minded individuals, can't we all just get along?)

I don't know what PITA is, and I love everybody too.
I want to get along too!
I just don't think banning a discussion that might be useful... is useful
And I don't feel that calling someone's personal observation "inflammatory" is useful.
I thought Scruffy's post was fine.

So.. is there an answer?
Probably not.
People love leaving their mark - as has been discussed on the forum more than once.

 

[annakappa]

I don't know what PITA is either!

 

[Damien Reynolds]

I don't know what PITA is, and I love everybody too.

PITA = Pain In The Ass.

I don't care much about the whole banning a conversation thing.

I am just bugged that (a particular nationality) are being called out for graffiti (diminishing the Camino experience).

Also, I like the graffiti sometimes. And I don't think its just (a particular nationality). That's it.

Damien

Edited by Moderator to remove references to a particular nationality

 

[Mysticl]

My daughter refers to graffiti as modern cave art ... it is a cultural thing ... and all cultures have at least some examples of it ... I think we really just need to try and embrace it for what it is ... art as a form of cultural expression .... anyway I really enjoyed reading most of it along the way. The only stuff that didn't go down so well were the political messages of a local nature that were written in english ... it just didn't makes sense, a local Spanish political smear in Spain, written in English ... and was ugly .... but most of it was kind of cool and as I said, I rather enjoyed it ... interesting, fun and usually creative.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hahaha! Now I have a new word, PITA.
Man, whoever said you can't teach an old dog...

I think every pilgrim from every land should be asking their peers to please not do the graffiti.
*******
Since posting this, someone brought to my attention Scruffy isn't (a particular nationality).
So I have to delete the part about him calling out his own peers.
Except any pilgrim IS his peer, in my opinion.

I don't care.
He still has freedom of speech and if he saw more English graffiti, then ::shrug;;
I just don't think people need to get their panties in a twist over nothing...

Edited by Moderator to achieve political correctness Annie!

 

[whariwharangi]

My daughter refers to graffiti as modern cave art ... it is a cultural thing ... and all cultures have at least some examples of it ... I think we really just need to try and embrace it for what it is ... art as a form of cultural expression .... anyway I really enjoyed reading most of it along the way. The only stuff that didn't go down so well were the political messages of a local nature that were written in english ... it just doesn't makes sense ... and was ugly .... but most of it was kind of cooland as I said, I rather enjoyed it ... I found most graffiti to be interesting, fun and usually creative.

It would be cultural if it truly represented the culture of a society and were encouraged by it. It is neither; its a nuisance.

Art hangs on YOUR wall where I don't have to see it.

Really good art is locked in a closet where no one sees it.

 

[Mysticl]

No, YOUR art hangs on your wall where I can't see it. Really good art is on display and graffiti is very much a cultural thing. Every single culture that has ever existed has some form or graffiti style art ... a hand on a cave wall a name on an underpass ... they all say "I was here. I existed." people flock to caves to see the hand .. in a thousand years they might do the same in the underpasses of the world.

 

[Damien Reynolds]

Just sayin'. Got ur back - Mysticl.

 

[whariwharangi]

No, YOUR art hangs on your wall where I can't see it. Really good art is on display and graffiti is very much a cultural thing. Every single culture that has ever existed has some form or graffiti style art ... a hand on a cave wall a name on an underpass ... they all say "I was here. I existed." people flock to caves to see the hand .. in a thousand years they might do the same in the underpasses of the world.

My Art? Its in the garbage ... because it strongly resembles the caveman-like stuff with which some vandal has defaced someone else's property, too often public property.

Take only pictures. Leave only footprints. I don't care that you were here and would prefer to enjoy it untarnished as you were able to do.

 

[Damien Reynolds]

Whari - I do care that you were here. That adds to my being here. If I was to alone experience the Camino, it would just be a long walk.

Tasteful footprints and some more permanent reminders are acceptable IMO.

Defacing is never.

 

[DurhamParish]

Ok, well, if we are to discuss the actual issue I must confess, I actually enjoy reading the grafitti in the underpasses, on the stop signs, on the occasional bench on the side of the trail. Its not like the stuff I see here in LA where turf is being claimed and lives threatened, usually its kind of uplifting... like "Don't Stop" or "I love Maria." , or poems even. Yes they are in English - at least the ones I can read. On the way into Santiago there is that whole "Imagine" thread written everywhere about the John Lennon song... Markers don't bother as much as spray cans. Much more of that observed on the cab ride from MAD to Atocha then on the path itself.

I agree, I enjoy reading most of the graffiti along the way, most of it is entertaining and some is even thought provoking. The only graffiti that makes me angry, or maybe sad, are the swastikas, and some other related graffiti. When I see that I feel sorry for any of our Jewish brothers and sisters who see it, and also our fellow German pilgrims who don't need that thrown up in their faces.

 

[whariwharangi]

I agree, I enjoy reading most of the graffiti along the way, most of it is entertaining and some is even thought provoking. The only graffiti that makes me angry, or maybe sad, are the swastikas, and some other related graffiti. When I see that I feel sorry for any of our Jewish brothers and sisters who see it, and also our fellow German pilgrims who don't need that thrown up in their faces.

If you accept graffiti as art ... then you have to accept that art is a reflection of life ... even when it is ugly. Which is why it should be on Your wall or locked in a closet instead of in a place where it gets rubbed in everyone's face.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Whenever I write graffiti I write it in English, the kind from New Zealand, because they are the coolest people I've met on the Camino so far.

well to quote the usual NZ English "graffiti SUXs!". DON'T leave your TAG anywhere!

 

[Damien Reynolds]

I hope Saint Mike you understand I have never tagged anything... except that one time...

I was in an alburgue in Negreia. We had already achieved our goal and decided to press further, towards Finnesterre.

I had met with this troup of walkers, my sister and me, that were from a foreign land. Each night along the way, starting in Leon or such, we had grown closer. Walking 30KM a day or so together, we grew tight. We shared facebook accounts and email addresses.

There was one girl who I especially connected with.

That night, as I was on the bottom bunk, I looked up, and read the familiar love proclamations.

I decided to add my own... "I love [name witheld because it was a sad, sad ending]".

 

[MTtoCamino]

Scruffy

You started a conversation that in my opinion none of us can change, unless we want to start scrubbing walls on the walk. This really is a Spanish issue, just as the graffiti on the rail cars is a French issue in Paris. It is aggravating to walk past 12th century buildings with graffiti, but unless they are caught in the act nothing will change. It is frustrating but as old men all we can do is complain over a beer, or forum.

 

[whariwharangi]

Scruffy

You started a conversation that in my opinion none of us can change, unless we want to start scrubbing walls on the walk. This really is a Spanish issue, just as the graffiti on the rail cars is a French issue in Paris. It is aggravating to walk past 12th century buildings with graffiti, but unless they are caught in the act nothing will change. It is frustrating but as old men all we can do is complain over a beer, or forum.

Beer!

 

[Buz Radican]

I agree it's done by all nationalities - but I can only condemn my own countrymen and women!

Bovine poo. Until you can prove who actually did it, you must condem all or none. I saw far more graffiti in Spanish during my walk this past spring than I did in English, and I never saw anyone who was doing it, or admitted to doing it.

Edited by Moderator to remove references to a particular nationality.

 

[Janbrovold]

Just finished our beautiful Camino. I did notice the graffiti... A joke among many people we crossed paths with was to wondered who Naomi was... And how many marker pens were drained to write her name from at least Astorga to Santiago. We are Americans and wondered how our fellow country persons would be perceived. We experienced the most wonderful encounters with people from all over this beautiful planet...young and old. We are all individuals and good/bad behavior belongs to no one group alone. Buen Camino

 

[MichaelSG]

If people can show there ignorance with a marker or spray can on the Camino, why can't they show their ignorance with a keyboard on this forum? Keep the thread going!

 

[Anniesantiago]

I see them here ..... too - they have some weird sort of sense of entitlement - not all of course, but some.
And nobody has seemed to have taught them respect for other people or other people's property.
Or manners.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and grouchy!
And I'm not bashing anyone, just saying what I've seen.

Edited by Moderator

 

[RobertS26]

I heard Shirley MacLaine wrote graffiti at a bull fight that advertised a bag forwarding service.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The graffiti that had me scratching my head was "Om mani padme hum" a Buddhist mantra. How does practicing at least buddhist méditation if not buddhism itself equate with destroying property by writing it on walls, posts, etc.?
Really? The ones I really enjoy are the Spanish political ones. A great one of Mafalda in Deba for example, and also one on the CF somewhere appologizing to pilgrims for the détours they have to make through ugly areas. This was is on a highway pilar.

 

[gerardcarey]

I heard Shirley MacLaine wrote graffiti at a bull fight that advertised a bag forwarding service.

She wrote a bookful of it.
Regards
Gerard

 

[roblsch]

The graffiti that had me scratching my head was "Om mani padme hum" a Buddhist mantra. How does practicing at least buddhist méditation if not buddhism itself equate with destroying property by writing it on walls, posts, etc.?
Really? The ones I really enjoy are the Spanish political ones. A great one of Mafalda in Deba for example, and also one on the CF somewhere appologizing to pilgrims for the détours they have to make through ugly areas. This was is on a highway pilar.

One of the pillars of Buddhism is the impermanence of all things - which i hopefully applies to anything that may be spray painted or otherwise "tagged" along the camino path. The two syllables, padme - meaning lotus, symbolize wisdom which demonstrates that whoever "marks" their passing in such a manner is lacking in that quality.

 

[DeadFred]

What was it Paul Simon wrote and sung in his song The Sound of Silence ? "Words of the Prophets are written on the subway walls and tenant halls " ?
I don't believe this thread will resolve the Graffiti /Art/Creative /Social issues anytime soon. But I do enjoy the dialogue here.

Scruffy you really stepped in it this time my man , but that's ok. . According to our..... Constitution you are free to say whatever you feel even if its a broad stroke ignorant comment.


Edited by Moderator in accordance with the Forum Constitution.

 

[gollygolly]

The majority of Graffiti tends to be an assault on my senses, though graffiti seems to me not to be simply a Camino issue, but an issue throughout Spain. It is prevalent all over the country.

My personal bugbear along the Camino is the dropped litter. Why-oh-why ? Cans, plastic bottles and other debris simply dropped along the way without a thought as to what will happen to it. I realise that graffiti is permanent and that rubbish can be picked up, but between the two, it is the dropped rubbish that offends me most.

 

[scruffy1]

Quite right sir, but should I meet ¨Sam from Chicago¨ Mary from San Francisco¨¨ or as she now prefers MSF or MrMs ¨Gig ém Aggies¨hey will get a piece of my mind.

Edited by Moderator

 

[Robo]

Agreed.

Agreed. Lots of people will write in English............... Sometimes even the English! Scottish, Irish, Canadians, Australians,............

 

[Introibo]

"She wrote a bookful of it." You never said a truer word Gerard.

I Liked most of the graffiti that was on underpasses, blank walls etc.
I wasn't so keen on seeing graffiti on, for want of a better word, the official signs of the Camino.

The one piece that always has me chuckling was "Baby we were born to be wild" and tagged John Brierley.

 

[kmrice]

Much of the grafitti in 2013, at least on the early stages of the CF, was anti-Spain seperatist messages which I doubt was left by (reference to a particular nationality).

Edited by Moderator

 

[oursonpolaire]

On my first Camino, I was walking with two other Canadian pilgrims who, when they saw "Leon Solo" written on walls would call out "Castile con leche!" I suppose it depends where you are-- on the del Norte, most grafitti was written in Euzkadi, and I would not blame that on US pilgrims (unless they were from Idaho, perhaps)

 

[Dutch]

NO MORE FRACKING!

Hmm, not something a pilgrim would write on walls

What wonders me, all pilgrims, whatever nationality, that do spray stuff on walls and road, where the *peep* did you get the spraycan from? Did you bring it from home? Have you any idea what that weighs?
Maybe as much as 3 bags of crisps, 5 marsbars, 1 bottle of aquarius, 4 magdalenas, a bocadillo de tortilla for later....pff i know what i would choose for the extra weight and it sure would not be a can of spraypaint

 

[aliwalks]

Its not Martin Sheens movie, its his son Emilio Esteves movie, he wrote is and produced it. Get your fact right. There are a lot of English speaking people walking the camino. What makes you think its Americans leaving graffiti, did you stop ask them! I'm a American the only thing I leave behind is foot prints and I try to leave damn few of thoses. Buem Camino

Agree!

 

[Kev]

The only English graffiti scribbling person I was aware of was a very young couple Not that ANY graffiti is acceptable.

Edited by Moderator

 

[Tibby]

I just got home from walking the Camino form SJP to Santiago and observed the graffiti along the way. I kept expecting to find something offensive but it was all slogans like 'You can do it' or 'I love Carlos'. All positive and uplifting. However I can't speak much Spanish so I can only comment on the anglophone art.

 

[Former member 12499]

I blame all of this graffiti on KILROY! (As in Kilroy was here). Seen in the four corners of the world (and on the Camino). There's the culprit.
Not sure what his / her nationality is.....

Charlie

 

[Gary McCombs]

I came off the Camino in Oct and that 85 percent seems high to me. It was very sad to see so much of it along the way. I just assumed it was being done by the Spanish youth who know English...... Why would anyone come to another country and graffiti a sacred trail. It's also sad that some people consider graffiti as art.

Edited by Moderator

 

[annakappa]

. I just assumed it was being done by the Spanish youth who know English ..

Why put all the blame on the Spanish youth? (My comment being a grandmother of 4 'youths', plus a younger boy)! That's not fair!
And why just the Spanish? Again not fair!
As much as it is not fair to put the blame mainly on the Gringos!
Graffiti exists all over the World. It can so happen that some countries get their act together very quickly and remove immediately all offending 'art work' ( I'm thinking of Switzerland here)!

Edited by Moderator

 

[Botaivica]

Pilgrims take with them only what they need.
To write graffiti, must take equipment from the start.
No one serious pilgrims will not do that.

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

I read Spanish as well as English which is good 'cause I'm 'Merican and it means I'm literate. Anyway, I've seen and read some really interesting graffiti in Spanish. And graffiti in general is as old as language. I happen to think that there are other issues that could use attention. We all know about poop and toilet paper.

Edited by Moderator

 

[whariwharangi]

I recall an old favourite quote of mine from Spider Robinson, SF author

Paul Simon once said that “ . . . the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls / and the tenement halls . . .”. I have myself recently seen the future writ large upon my own sidewalk.
Due to the recent construction of four megaboxes bracketing my own home in Point Grey, the sidewalk became so damaged as to require repair. The freshly poured cement naturally attracted graffitisti with popsicle sticks, determined to immortalize themselves. How few real opportunities there are these days for a writer to have his or her work literally graven in stone! Inevitably, one of these was an ardent young swain who wished to proclaim his undying love to the ages. His chilling masterpiece of . . . er . . . concrete poetry is located right at the foot of my walkway, where I must look at it every time I leave my home. It consists of a large heart, within which are inscribed the words:

TOOD + JANEY

Now, I don’t know about you, but I decline to believe that even in this day and age, any set of parents elected to name their son ‘Tood’. I am therefore forced to conclude that young Todd is unable to spell his own goddam name . . . despite having reached an age sufficiently advanced for him to find young Janey intriguing. As I make my living from literacy, I find this sign of the times demoralizing.

--Spider Robinson, from ‘User Friendly’, Baen Books, 1998.

 

[Kathar1na]

I saw these photos posted somewhere recently. I think it is the same stone. Oddly enough, the first photo is apparently the more recent one.

I don't know how long I would have to walk before I were able to embrace this ...

 

[jpflavin1]

Scruffy1:

I am not sure what prompted this post or the associated blame. I am wondering if there are any facts to base it on.

That said, I would join your request, with one exception, that would be to ask all Pilgrims to refrain from defacing our Camino in any language. Though, I doubt this message is being read by anyone doing any such activity.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

@scruffy1 Poor Marty Sheen got the blame in this thread title.

 

[newfydog]

 

[Kanga]

Please, if you find a post offensive, push the "report" button - that gets our attention.

I have done my best to clean up the thread but, like graffiti, it is hard to fix. My apologies to all of you for editing your messages but I did not want to eliminate everything.

Slurs on a particular nationality or racial group are just not acceptable.

 

[Angel-hart]

(W)e are also witnessing a prolification of English grafitti trashing the Camino where ever you look. Sure there has always been such along the Camino but today 85% is all inEnglish, Please, bretheren, leave your markers at home, there is far too much English scribbled everywhere now, do nçt need anymore!

Edited by moderator to remove offensive references to a particular nationality

Scruffy you have certainly opened and brought to light an important topic. I am a retired Deep Water Merchant Marine/ Seaman who has sailed pretty much the globe, and worked with people from all over the world. I find English the most common language spoken when many different people are amassed. Its spoken ship to ship like Aircraft as a universal language in ports to foster good communication and seamanship so we don't collide when entering and leaving ports or get close when at sea.

There is English UK, East Indian, Australian, New Zealand, American, and Canada all slightly different. .....

(Edited by Moderator)

Defacing cultural places through graffiti isn't right in any language in my opinion. Thank you for bringing this topic to light it is important. Litter, restrooms and common courtesy to the people and country of Spain could be topics also.
Moderators: Thank you for position in helping retain this open forum.

Angelhart

 

[MTtoCamino]

Please, if you find a post offensive, push the "report" button - that gets our attention.

I have done my best to clean up the thread but, like graffiti, it is hard to fix. My apologies to all of you for editing your messages but I did not want to eliminate everything.

Slurs on a particular nationality or racial group are just not acceptable.

I started at the top to see what all you had to moderate. I have an idea for everyone, in the army to reduce fighting along racial lines we simply all became "green" so my suggestion is to use "alien" until of course we discover there are aliens Unless of course that is offensive, then maybe something else.. We could take a poll.. In any case you darn aliens know who I am referring to!
Kanga your doing a fine job with all the Aliens!

 

[alansykes]

(W)e are also witnessing a prolification of English grafitti trashing the Camino where ever you look. Sure there has always been such along the Camino but today 85% is all inEnglish, Please, bretheren, leave your markers at home, there is far too much English scribbled everywhere now

I am currently on the Camino Castillano-Aragonés up in the Sorian highlands. There is quite a lot of graffiti about, especially in the suburbs of the larger towns: some in Spanish, some in English and some in the accents of an unknown tongue that appears to be trying to be English. But as I am told I am about the 50th pilgrim to walk this route this year, I doubt it can be blamed on (anyone) in particular.

Edited by Moderator

 

[Kanga]

Thank you @MTtoCamino and of course the exception is that Kiwis are welcome to insult Aussies. Particularly when it comes to rugby. Just expect we'll give back as good as it gets. Sledging being a cross-Tasman sport.

This thread has run its course and is now closed.