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Pagan takeover...?

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Priscillian

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
Time to get some controversy back on this site. Having gotten involved in a bedbug fight I want to put this question out there.
Certainly if the Compostela did not exist we might get clearer answers (it is considered a Certificate of Achievement by most - but that´s another topic). But this line from a recent article by Jack Hitt, author of Off the Road, really has me thinking: with regard to the Via Lactea...
“Apparently, the pagans have returned to take the road back,” I (Jack) said.
What do YOU think?
 
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What else is new ?

Catholics and other Christians walking the Camino for any meaningfully religious reasons have been a tiny minority since likely the late 1980s, or possibly since 1991-1992 (this is before my time, but it's the impression that I have).

But can these pagans "take it over" ???

Doubtful, VERY doubtful.
 
Ah, "old Paganus"' the villager, the country dweller. Rejecting all these monotheistic institutions imposed by the powerful and instead embracing the old gods of fire and wind, those that babble in the brooks and groan deep in the ground. Still following the sun to the end of the world.

Some might suggest that the Christians borrowed the old path from its creators. They kindly built shelters and bridges and marked out the way with their yellow arrows... And old Paganus, he smiles his thanks and wanders on his Way.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
As someone who has personally never done the Camino before, I'm not a very reliable source.

But I am a Catholic who will be completing the Camino for religious reasons. Am I in the minority? From what people on here have said, probably.

However, I know numerous people in my Parish community and local area that have done the Camino as Catholics for religious reasons.

In fact, the ONLY people I know in real-life that have done El Camino did it for the aforementioned reason.

Anyway... who knows!!

Buen camino!
 
But I am a Catholic who will be completing the Camino for religious reasons. Am I in the minority? From what people on here have said, probably.
However, I know numerous people in my Parish community and local area that have done the Camino as Catholics for religious reasons.
In fact, the ONLY people I know in real-life that have done El Camino did it for the aforementioned reason.

Just shows how very 'insular' we christians are! I find that nearly all meetings, events, get togethers, even barbeques and the like are "Parish Events"!!! I am thinking that it is time to 'do less and play more' - btw I own up to being an Anglican priest :?
On the Camino I have met very few 'active' christians. There are organised groups of them from Sarria onward, again keeping very much to themselves.
However, the ancient infrastructure of the various caminos is specifically christian with some 'pagan' symbols built into various buildings along the way. Priscillian (the original one - not Tracey :D) would have been interested as to how things have developed, and are developing.
Christianity and especially mediaeval Roman Catholic christianity was of itself 'synchretistic'. Athanasius would have thrown a wobbly and gone back into the wilderness!!

How far modern 'paganism' will take over is a good question. Anyone on the Camino with a listening ear, a faithful heart and patience will learn much. The trick is to lay all before the throne of grace and sort out the wheat from the chaff :wink:

well, you did want some controversy Tracey!!

Blessings
Tio Tel
 
Over half the Pilgrims are Spanish and walk the Camino for Catholic reasons. I have met dozens of youth groups in the spring and fall who walk the last 100km as part of their Catholic school curriculum.

We Pagans are numerous, but I doubt that we are taking over. Those youth groups will be going strong when Hape Kerkeling, Cohelo, MacLaine, and "The Way" are long forgotten.

Stephen Hawking will be a larger factor than Pagans, of which he is one, I suppose. When physics does not require god, how much is left for Christianity except its ethics??
 
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In the spirit of pot-stirring here, I offer the following:
1) I think "pagan" is improperly used here; you really mean secular/humanist/atheist/agnostic. I believe the distinction is that pagans actually believe something spiritual - it's just not Christian dogma.
2) I think physics has recently discovered the "god particle" - so I'm not at all sure there is no factoring in of God.
 
falcon269 said:
Stephen Hawking will be a larger factor than Pagans, of which he is one, I suppose. When physics does not require god, how much is left for Christianity except its ethics??
It might be a bit early to get too jubilant about that scenario. In the fullness of time, Stephen Hawking may yet be found to be only clever to a point, that point being the “Big Bang”. Still a theory I believe.
Some would point out that prior to the “Big Bang”, when the universe as we understand it, was considered by theorists to be nothingness; there may have been other unobservable forces involved.
Those who dismiss the possibility of a “force” that exists outside of space and time, are basing their conclusions on theories, as empirical evidence will never be available to them.
Therefore, it will never be proven. Not requiring God is more about People than Physics.
That force I call “God”, who although I also can’t empirically prove, I believe exists, and who is my primary motivation for pilgrimage to Santiago.
Stephen Hawking is a smart man, but being smart doesn’t always make one right about all things.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.” Albert Einstein
Buen Camino
Colin
 
If forum members spot many attending rites at solstice along the Camino, then I suppose the pagans will have established their presence more clearly. Until then, we can only guess.

Having discussed motivations with many pilgrims over the years as we walked along, many who began the Camino with specific ecclesiastical intent found that their original purpose strayed or changed, sometimes substantially, over the walk. Others who started off with a recreativo walk in mind soon discovered that they were attending evening masses diligently.
 
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oursonpolaire said:
Others who started off with a recreativo walk in mind soon discovered that they were attending evening masses diligently.

I didn't quite start with a 'recreativo walk' in mind (65 at the time). At my first stop after Roncesvalles, I was asked by some other pilgrims why I had chosen to walk. Had not given it much thought - only knew that I wanted to and had felt the urge/need to do it - and my spontaneous reply was, "My son said to me that my life content should be more than my daily walk to the supermarket and back" - and they rolled over with laughing and said that this was the most honest answer they had heard so far.

But getting back on the theme - Yes, I attended every mass I could along the camino. I often felt the wish to partake in the Eucharist but knew it was not for me as a Lutheran. And I was happy for the pilgrim blessings bestowed on us. I felt moved and touched every time.

annelise
 
Yesterday I watched the light from a stained glass window "walk" down the aisle of the church in Azofra to finally illuminate the altar, which also has a faux prism to add drama all year long. It was a day after the summer solstice, but the first sun in several days, even if it was slightly off center.

The albergue attached to the church, used now only in the winter when the modern two-bed-per-room albergue is closed, was established in 1168.

The sarcophagus at San Juan de Ortega is illuminated at the two equinoxes through two windows.

Pagan???
 
Hola Tracy,
Priscillian said:
What do YOU think?
Couldn't help thinking how MP would have enjoyed this thread. I'm sure he would have contributed with his usual wisdom & grace.
Priscillian said:
Certainly if the Compostela did not exist we might get clearer answers (it is considered a Certificate of Achievement by most - but that´s another topic).
Ah, but it does exist and it "certainly" is an excellent topic, but I don’t think it can be separated from this conversation. Until proved otherwise, it is documentary evidence that needs to be included, however inconvenient in the measurement of peoples intentions. Because you “certainly” can’t prove that the thousands of people who apply for the Compostela are all liars.
In fact, on the basis of that assumption we might conclude that all who said they walked for “non-religious” reasons are also lying, and therefore should be counted amongst the “non-pagans”.
So any credible discussion must include what people declare when applying for their Compostela.
Priscillian said:
Time to get some controversy
At the risk of real controversy, what do you consider Pagan? Non-Catholic, Non-Christian, Agnostic or Atheist?
Buen Camino
Colin
 
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falcon269 said:
... going strong when Hape Kerkeling, Cohelo, MacLaine, and "The Way" are long forgotten.
But even then Georgiana Goddard King will surely still survive 'm all online. Go, Tracy, go!
 
colinPeter said:
At the risk of real controversy, what do you consider Pagan? Non-Catholic, Non-Christian, Agnostic or Atheist?

In the context of the original NY Times article, it was anyone who didn't
[go] first to the cathedral, participated in Holy Communion and prayed for the pope.
So non-Catholics and potentially some Catholics were included along with followers of other mono-theistic religions, etc, etc.

What Tracy didn't say about the context of the original quote was that it was presented as repartee between the author (Jack Hitt) and an unnamed Catholic cleric, not as some acute and meaningful observation resulting from genuine research and reflection on the motivations of those participating in the Camino.

If you are interested, the original article is at http://travel.nytimes.com/2013/04/2...-with-your-daughters.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.

Regards
 
The 'big bang' is rather an out of date description - as it is now (finally) understood that 'space-time' came into existence in one go, as it were - the universe 'whoooomphed' into spacial existence rather than exploded into existence - both physicists and religious can be in agreement - 'let there be light' :wink:

I find the Pagans in the UK quite sweet. They tend to believe that their lineage is the original religion of the Celts and that they are recreating pre-Christian, Celtic, 'Paganism' - but as the Celts didn't have a written language none of their beliefs were written down, so our Pagans make it up as they go along, which I find both endearing and amusing.

Though .. back then .. - all 'pagan' really meant was any non Jewish religious belief, such title then adopted by the early Christians - and then the early Roman Church incorporated most of the rites and rituals into their 'new' religion -

pagans 'taking over' ? I don't even know what that means!
 
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David said:
The 'big bang' is rather an out of date description - as it is now (finally) understood that 'space-time' came into existence in one go, as it were - the universe 'whoooomphed' into spacial existence rather than exploded into existence - both physicists and religious can be in agreement - 'let there be light'
Yes, “Burst into Being”, is I think a Hawking phrase, his claim is the universe didn't need any divine help for this “Burst into Being” to happen. However, that is still no evidence that there was not a divine being prior to it, and proves nothing as to whether there is a God who lives beyond the limitations of “Being” as we understand it.

Buen Camino
Colin
 
Hmmm.... There seems to be a bit of confusion over what constitutes a 'Pagan'. It is not someone who has no spiritual and/or religious beliefs. It is someone who has a nature-based spiritual belief and a reverence for natural phenomena. This covers a HUGE amount of beliefs/systems/religions. But in pagan circles (unlike some parts of some organised (and maybe disorganised!) religions...) we do not believe in denigrating each other, hurting each other or people of other faiths. We like to have a chat and compare beliefs but we are - in general- a rather tolerant lot!
Personally I love visiting churches (prefer it when there's NOT a service on) especially those built on previously sacred ground. I love to look for all the evidence of past/present paganism within the fabric of the building, it gives a lovely sense of the continuation of sacred thought, religious activity and the absolute incapability of humans knowing 'what actually IS' as opposed to arguing about what they think IT is!!
I have and do peregrinate as often as possible and believe it is an ancient from of 'worship'. I have met a good lot of Christians whilst doing this - but a good amount of other organised religions and many pagans too.
I don't think Mr Hawking would describe himself as a 'pagan' - but you never know...
As for pagans taking over - we've always been here and probably always will be.....
 
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Hecate105, great post.

I love your juxtaposition of perigrination and pilgrimage

I'm tempted to say that we pagans should stick together, but then thats what the other lot(s) did and look what they built.

My tribe wouldn't describe themselves as Pagans, but maybe as pagans. We can't be part of an institutionalised belief system because there is no institutionalised belief system to which we could belong or subscribe. We have a commonality of belief / faith that brings us close to each other but does not bind us into any fixed process. And I'll stop there ... Never a prophet or a proselytiser be.
 
I think there is a confusion of "pagan" and "heathen."

"Pagans" have beliefs based on a perceived past lineage that doesn´t include the Judeo-Christian.
"Heathen" don´t believe in any diety at all, except maybe the lasting value of a good dinner.

At least that is how I see it.
If anybody is threatening a takeover, my money is on the Heathen. They are apparently the default setting of all of humanity.
Reb
 
Rebekah Scott said:
I think there is a confusion of "pagan" and "heathen."

"Pagans" have beliefs based on a perceived past lineage that doesn´t include the Judeo-Christian.
"Heathen" don´t believe in any diety at all, except maybe the lasting value of a good dinner.
[snip]
I like your distinction, but I don't think you would get much support from language purists. These are close synonyms in English, one coming from Latin, the other Germanic. They both allowed members of the emerging monotheist religions living in cities to attach what became a pejorative label to the unsophisticated and naive country folk with different beliefs. Neither implied atheism, just that the subject didn't adhere to the city dwellers clearly superior mono-theistic beliefs.

Are the pagans/heathens taking over? Perhaps there are adherents to other (non-monotheistic) belief systems walking to observe the pre-Christian significance of the Camino. If they were taking over, the road to Finesterre would be much more popular. Or, if they were modern pagans, they would be heading for Cabo da Roca to really reach the westermost point of mainland Europe :?
 
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Just to put the cat among the pigeons, the big bang theory was first proposed by Monseigneur Georges Lemaître, Catholic priest and scientist, and not by Edwin Hubble as most people think.
 
The Hindus were writing about such a thing over 5,000 years ago! (but they didn't call it the big bang)

Schrodinger's cat and pigeons? :lol:
 
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"There must exist, beyond mere appearances … a 'veiled reality' that science does not describe but only glimpses uncertainly. In turn, contrary to those who claim that matter is the only reality, the possibility that other means, including spirituality, may also provide a window on ultimate reality cannot be ruled out, even by cogent scientific arguments." Bernard d’Espagnat

ps. If this post "colapses" upon opening this thread, blame Schrodinger. :wink:
 
colinPeter said:
"There must exist, beyond mere appearances … a 'veiled reality' that science does not describe but only glimpses uncertainly. In turn, contrary to those who claim that matter is the only reality, the possibility that other means, including spirituality, may also provide a window on ultimate reality cannot be ruled out, even by cogent scientific arguments." Bernard d’Espagnat

ps. If this post "colapses" upon opening this thread, blame Schrodinger. :wink:

There are many veiled realities that science for now can only glimpse. nevertheless, they are realities, or as near to reality as our mechanisms and understanding allow for the moment. Science and spirituality are I think two ways of looking at the universe and our place in it. They are different and I think that both are necessary. As a child, I was well instructed in the traditional Catholic view of the universe. I accepted it without question and I was well used to engaging my spiritual sense - delighting in the awe I felt when at times I considered the ultimate wonder of life and the world. As I came to adulthood, I discovered other ways of thinking about these things. The magical elements of my old beliefs I found unsatisfactory, but the sense of awe I feel on looking up at night to see the vastness of creation has never waned. Indeed it is far greater since now I realise how truly vast and complex it is. Two hundred thousand million suns in this galaxy alone. How many planets? How many with life? How many with sentient beings looking back at the sky?

Men and women are spiritual, because we have a spiritual dimension that is as much the core of us as seeing, or breathing. Evolution has given it to us. If I walk the way, marveling at the wonder of creation, delighting in the brotherhood of other pilgrims, the kindness of strangers, the opportunity to do a good turn to a tired or a lonely fellow traveler, is my pilgrimage less valuable, or real?
 
tony1951 said:
the sense of awe I feel on looking up at night to see the vastness of creation has never waned
Yes, when you live away from the city lights, as I do, it is a wonder beyond comprehension, to walk outside and look up at the night sky.
tony1951 said:
As a child, I was well instructed in the traditional Catholic view of the universe
I’m not sure if the “traditional view of the universe”, as you were taught, is actually what the Catholic Church teaches. My understanding is that regarding cosmological evolution, the Church only declares that the universe was created out of nothing, produced by God out of nothing.
The Church does not have a defined position on whether the “Two hundred thousand million suns in this galaxy alone” or however “many planets” there are today, were created at one time or whether they developed over eons (ie big bang, bursting forth, ect.). However, the Church does teach that, if they did develop over time, it Is attributable to God.
This teaching should not inhibit any wonder at the immensity and mystery of the universe.
tony1951 said:
Evolution has given it to us
Again,no defined Church position, other than development happened under the impetus and guidance of God, and the ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.
So, regarding the origins of the universe, the Church rejects only atheistic evolution. So if evolution did happen, then God has given the result, as He initiated the evolutionary process.
tony1951 said:
If I walk the way, marveling at the wonder of creation, delighting in the brotherhood of other pilgrims, the kindness of strangers, the opportunity to do a good turn to a tired or a lonely fellow traveler, is my pilgrimage less valuable, or real?
No, on the contrary, I would think your pilgrimage is very valuable and extremely real.
Buen Camino
Colin
 
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Yes - God (whatever one means by 'God' - usually as in, the one intelligence behind, manifesting, and upholding this phenomenal reality) .. has to create matter out of 'nothing' as, if before the universe there was God and matter then there would have been 'two' things, therefore God could not be God - One.
So - if God created, manifested, the universe, reality of space-time, then God could only create it 'out of himself' - therefore this reality, this phenomenal universe, can only be a projection of God - a dream of God, a hologram - however you would choose to name it ... (apologies for the male gender, we don't have the third article). Which is why mystics, connected ones, of all religions and none, have always connected to the same universal Oneness, creative, eternal, benevolent, Love - how else could it be?

The accepted view is that out of matter comes life, that matter creates life, but this is incorrect, the truth is that Life creates matter - Life is first, eternal, out of which comes matter.

Personally I think that the theory of evolution is mis-named, what I see is adaptation, which isn't quite the same thing.

Accompanying photo is meant to be light hearted :D
 

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Ha ha - that Atheism poster could be replicated with one mocking religious belief so easily. There are probably a thousand of them on the Internet, but I won't go and look for them.
 
colinPeter said:
[
I’m not sure if the “traditional view of the universe”, as you were taught, is actually what the Catholic Church teaches.
This teaching should not inhibit any wonder at the immensity and mystery of the universe.

I really meant the Catechism we were taught in school in the mid 1950s

tony1951 said:
Evolution has given it to us

Again,no defined Church position, other than development happened under the impetus and guidance of God, and the ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.
So, regarding the origins of the universe, the Church rejects only atheistic evolution. So if evolution did happen, then God has given the result, as He initiated the evolutionary process.
tony1951 said:
If I walk the way, marveling at the wonder of creation, delighting in the brotherhood of other pilgrims, the kindness of strangers, the opportunity to do a good turn to a tired or a lonely fellow traveler, is my pilgrimage less valuable, or real?
No, on the contrary, I would think your pilgrimage is very valuable and extremely real.
Buen Camino
Colin[/quote]

Thanks for your thoughts Colin.

Buen Camino .
 
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This is seriously the first time I have had to check back on this thread since I posted it. I am so glad the spirit of cat + pigeons still exists. My Mum loved pigeons but I remain the cat...
Anyway...
Honestly, guys, I am too exhausted at 2:30 in the morning working (at a "real job"); plus planting in the "Jardin de San Martín de los Peregrinos" in front of ther Little Fox House, cooking a really well appreciated chicken or vegetable curry, washing, cleaning, conversing and counselling to reply to these great and thought promoting comments. (I haven´t enjoyed this Forum so much in years!). But I will...and I thank all of you who have posted here.
Good to see that the presence of free thought still does exist on this Forum.
Signed the Unrelentless Happy Heretic!
TS.
And yes, as promised, comments later but give me a chance to get back to a "mid-pilgrim" moment (and a chance to go to the bathroom!)
Edited by Priscillian in thre spirit of Live and Let Live...)
 
tony1951 said:
sentient beings
Big Bang, 'Darwin' [about plants and animals but not stones], gravity [we use it in space but we don't grasp what it is] are 'only' incomplete theories. All we know is that we know very little...
 
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
tony1951 said:
sentient beings
Big Bang, 'Darwin' [about plants and animals but not stones], gravity [we use it in space but we don't grasp what it is] are 'only' incomplete theories. All we know is that we know very little...

:) I have to say, I find it quite extraordinary that any modern, educated person would attempt to diminish the achievements that have been made through science. The benefits it has brought have transformed the lives of almost every person on the planet, have delivered us from drudgery, allow us to feed an extraordinary human population (soon to be 7 billion) preserve us from the early death which dogged our forebears, provided us with cheap transport opportunities to go on pilgrimage and a million other things, including the technology to create a forum so that Luddites can slag off a form of enquiry which has delivered more to us than our ancestors could ever have dreamed of.

'All we know is that we know very little'?

Well, if you mean that we have a great deal more to discover, I'd agree, but I don't think that is what you mean. I don't think you know what science is. It is NOT a system of unassailable pronouncements. It is a system of enquiry in which theories are formed from observation of the world, and once published are tested to destruction by other scientists by experiment. The whole object of science is to disprove theories and by finding their flaws, to reformulate them to improve our understanding of how this universe we occupy operates.
 
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tony1951 said:
our understanding of how this universe we occupy operates
A quote in Wikipedia on sentient beings triggered my comment. Isn't it fascinating that we still have no clue what gravity is? It made me wonder whether perhaps we are not meant to discover those few secrets I mentioned by science and maybe religion is the best way to approach them?
 
[quote All we know is that we know very little...[/quote]
PP Socrates said: "All I know is that I know nothing."
The Oracle at Delphi said that it made him "the wisest of all men".
Good to know that you are still here, despite...
TS
 
Addendum to the above re: Hawkins, and Dawkins et al:
"If the human brain were simple enough for us to understand, we´d be too simple to understand it." Can´t provide a reference, alas.
But if we can´t understand our own brain, how the blue bloody blazes are we supposed to understand God's????
Case, rested, mine...
 
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Pagan bad? Pilgrim good?

What's next?
Feet good? Tyres bad?
Slippery slope?

Dax
 
Priscillian said:
how ... are we supposed to understand ...
Case closed? Why not keep trying? A new approach? As kids we had a joke with a box of Camel cigarettes: Suppose you're lost in a desert; all you can see is a camel and a tree and there is no water - now what? Answer: Turn the box, enter the oasis and wonder why you missed that corner.
 
Actually, we know a lot about gravity. It is just that we don't know everything about it. We have many more facts about gravity than we know facts about God.
 
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falcon269 said:
Actually, we know a lot about gravity. It is just that we don't know everything about it. We have many more facts about gravity than we know facts about God.
The point about gravity is that we know a lot [we use it all the time, even to calculate space trips] but that we do not understand the essence. We seem to have no clue, or so I read recently in the press and saw on tv in quite a few very interesting and serious articles and talk shows.

This seems to be a hot topic. Scientists cannot explain what it basicly is and apparently they have still a very long way to go. But there are other ways of understanding, like Jack Hitt indicates.

See http://thejackhittplay.com :
"Scientists of the mind are now studying the mechanics of how we all narrate our own stories in our brains, and Jack searches them out to answer the question everyone always asks him, “Why do these things always happen to you?” They don’t, the experiments show. We are all making up the truth, often to shield ourselves from what Jack discovers: the uncanny wonders that lie just beyond our brain’s notice. And that tale, it turns out, is another extravagant, almost unbelievable, true story."
So, again, can we think of other Ways? [I could think of one but fear Matron won't hear of it!] At least pilgrims should give it a try, because at the end of the day it's gravity that wears 'm out ...
 
Gravity may be just an artifact of the space time continuum. The center of the eye is blind, so the brain fills in the center, but it is just an artifact. Space time is constructed of quantum particles, but gravity may be something less real. I am confidant we will know more. After all, we are not waiting more than 2,000 years for a status update! You can find Facebook pages on quantum physics, but so far there as not been one from the Supreme Being or His Son. Was the last word said? How about the Mormon update? Pat Robertson? Sun Myung Moon? Can we expect validation or rejection of them?

:D
 
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Most of us are probably wise enough to know that it is futile to engage in argument that either Religion or Science is the only way to understand the world we live in. The trite triumphalism of Dawkins, or the same from those who despise the non-religious, are entirely out of place on the Camino. Even if agreement is difficult on exactly what that is, we know that we have a spiritual side. I'd describe it as a desire for purpose; a wish to be better than I am. A sense of myself as dust in the universe, and awe at the magnificence of creation. Walking the path gives time for reflection. That is what attracts me to it.

The pity about the title of this thread and maybe some of the posts is that they seem to set one seeker against another, and suggest that those who think differently from them are somehow fraudulent and unwelcome.
 
falcon269 said:
....After all, we are not waiting more than 2,000 years for a status update! You can find Facebook pages on quantum physics, but so far there as not been one from the Supreme Being or His Son. Was the last word said? How about the Mormon update? Pat Robertson? Sun Myung Moon? Can we expect validation or rejection of them?

Love it or hate it, the Catholic Church has been authoritatively giving updates from "the Supreme Being or His Son" for over 2000 years.

Not saying you have to believe it, so "keep your shirt on" :wink:

Buen Camino
Colin
 
colinPeter said:
Love it or hate it, the Catholic Church has been authoritatively giving updates from "the Supreme Being or His Son" for over 2000 years.

Not saying you have to believe it, so "keep your shirt on" :wink:

Buen Camino
Colin


I'm a Roman Catholic and my faith is at the core every pilgrimage I make. I don't ram my beliefs down other pilgrims throats or judge other peoples for theirs but nor do I feel I have to make 'apologia pro vita mea' because I'm a Christian (of whatever shade).
That said I believe we should 'keep the Camino catholic' (and please note the use of the small c readers!) and delight in the richness and complexity of belief it encompasses.
Oh and Colin I'm with Chesterton on the Catholic Church "Anything that has survived 2000 years of human corruption must be of Divine inspiration" :wink:
 
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WMD in Iraq is a good example.
 
falcon269 said:
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -Hitchens

WMD in Iraq is a good example.


Isn't that play (dialogue or fisticuffs!) between the imagined/fantastic/believed and the efforts to test or disprove such intangibles the very ladder that scientific/rational enquiry climbs? The personal (& sometimes apparently 'irrational') 'hunch' or 'spark' that inspired many scientific discoveries seems to mirror a 'leap of faith' to no small degree. Maybe we're hardwired to think 'off road' to imagine the unimaginable and that's what gives humanity so much potential... for good or ill.
 
An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.

Data used to support an opinion can be right or wrong.

Conclusions drawn from right data are subject to debate. Conclusions drawn from wrong data can only be wrong.

There are good decisions and bad decisions, and good outcomes and bad outcomes. While good decisions do guarantee good outcomes, they usually improve the chances of a good outcome. Bad decisions can have good outcomes, sometimes making the fool look wise! The lottery winner feels victorious only because he can ignore the fact that the government took half the bets for itself, so collectively the bettors lost half their money. Bad decisions based on bad data may have some good outcome, but that does not make either the data or the decision good.

One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief.
 
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WOW! at least we know the brain cells are ticking away in this forum's membership....
Tincatinker - I totally agree with you, I only used a capital cos I didn't want to upset any pagan/Pagan who needed capitalisation! Also I always have this problem of fairness- if I write about Christians, they almost always want a capital (Going by what my mother wants folks - since apparently she is right - and unanimous in that!) and then if I use a small 'p' - is it belittling my own compadres? Is anyone bothered? Should I just chop and change my capitalising according to my lazy 'shift' finger? Or should I be putting more thought into gravity, the origin of God/god/gods and the number 42???
 
falcon269 said:
An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.

One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief.

Science itself has not been nor is free of it's own rigid orthodoxies and all that that implies for free enquiry/alternative interpretations.
Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?
 
falcon269 said:
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -Hitchens.....
Does this apply to art and ethics?
Buen Camino
Colin

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 9:10
 
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nellpilgrim said:
Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?
Excellent! A new approach! I had to look it up; we call it schering en inslag referring to weaving and similar often repeated patterns of behaviour and speach; things that people often say or do.

This is what I meant above with taking a decisive corner from the empty desert into the oasis where all our hopes may be met. Like in weaving we may have to canter our views and thoughts.

Gravity is perhaps the best opening into this realm since pilgrims are dealing with it all day long.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

update 2-7-13

http://travel.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/tr ... d=all&_r=0 - By JACK HITT
Hiking Through History, With Your Daughters - Published: April 17, 2013
---
'There’s nothing quite like quitting one’s comfy hotel after a breakfast of chorizo and café con leche, hoisting a pack and walking out the door. The transition into hobo is immediate. Meandering through a Spanish city with a backpack is hardly arduous, but then the outskirts come, and then a dusty trail alongside asparagus fields, and soon sweat and fatigue. And there you are, in a brute animal slouch, lugging the weight of your own self and belongings, watching the miles go by very, very slowly, the sun hissing just outside your sunglasses. When we pulled into a pensión that night, we soaked our steaming feet in cold water. If it hadn’t been for extreme hunger, we would never have made it downstairs for dinner.'
---
'In one town, we came upon a gallery filled with ancient pilgrim art. The sponsor of the show was Opus Dei, a Catholic group known for its adherence to tradition. A young cleric approached and offered his view that true pilgrims were those who met three conditions — they went first to the cathedral, participated in Holy Communion and prayed for the pope.
In my crummy Spanish, I reminded him that the road had been a spiritual walk long before Christianity. Pagans and Goths and other non-Christian people walked the road, also known as the Via Láctea (the Milky Way) because even at night, it was said, one could follow the path west. The town they were aiming for, though, was not Santiago so much as the little town farther on — Finisterre (End of the Earth, until 1492). As the westernmost spit of land on the Spanish mainland, it was a place of mystical obsession long before an errant hermit found St. James’s sepulcher.
The cleric held his own. At one point, we both looked out the window at the motley parade. “Apparently, the pagans have returned to take the road back,” I said.'
---

http://makezine.com/2012/05/29/on-amate ... tt-part-1/ -
On Amateurism: Interview With Jack Hitt, Part 1
---
'MAKE: And what allured you to the notion of amateurism in the first place?
Jack: I spent a while hanging out with the Kansas City Space Pirates, a team of amateurs competing in a NASA competition involving power beaming. The goal, ultimately, is to build a space elevator — a 60,000 mile long ribbon built of carbon nanotubes, a slightly-but-not-entirely cracked idea that would permit us to easily escape the gravity of earth and more handily domesticate space. After some time with the Pirates, it struck me that the world of backyard tinkerers was not a halcyon time that has passed but one that has come cycling back around.'
---
escape the gravity of earth
I recently learned that we cannot escape gravity. It may look or feel that way when the effect of speed of traveling [flying past or falling down to earth] equals that of gravity -gb
 
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
...'In one town, we came upon a gallery filled with ancient pilgrim art. The sponsor of the show was Opus Dei, a Catholic group known for its adherence to tradition. A young cleric approached and offered his view that true pilgrims were those who met three conditions — they went first to the cathedral, participated in Holy Communion and prayed for the pope.
In my crummy Spanish, I reminded him that the road had been a spiritual walk long before Christianity. Pagans and Goths and other non-Christian people walked the road, also known as the Via Láctea (the Milky Way) because even at night, it was said, one could follow the path west. The town they were aiming for, though, was not Santiago so much as the little town farther on — Finisterre (End of the Earth, until 1492). As the westernmost spit of land on the Spanish mainland, it was a place of mystical obsession long before an errant hermit found St. James’s sepulcher.
The cleric held his own. At one point, we both looked out the window at the motley parade. “Apparently, the pagans have returned to take the road back,” I said.'
According to Jack Hitt's analysis, the true pagans should be easy to count. They’ll be the ones bypassing Santiago Cathedral, the pilgrim mass, the pilgrim office and heading straight to Finisterre.
(After also skipping the Pilgrim Mass at SJPP & Roncesvalles, the Cathedrals at Santa Domingo de la Calzada, Burgos, Leon, Inglesia de Santa Maria Real in O’Cebreiro, to name just a few spots on the road which the pagans are taking back). :wink:
Buen Camino
Colin
 
I am absolutely loving this thread.

Regardless of what folk might like to think of as a 'pilgrim' and who has the right to claim the title and what the road might have been before (let us remember that the Celts didn't have a written language so we have no idea whatsoever what it might have been in ancient times!) - the pilgrimage that ends at the Cathedral in Santiago is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage - this cannot be denied, nor should it be forgotten.

What a person thinks about 'what they are doing' and 'why they are doing it' is irrelevant in this case. The pilgrimage to the remains of St James (whether they are his or not) in the Cathedral in Santiago is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage and has been for nearly 1200 years. So - what the Roman church says that it is, is what it is.

Others, of other faiths or none, heretic, pagan, Jedi, great spaghetti monster followers, can believe exactly what they want to believe - it is, after all, the Age of the Individual, with all the selfishness and greed and arrogance that this entails - but when they are going to Santiago they are on a Roman Catholic pilgrimage - this is how it is, this is why the Compostela is written in Latin, this is why there are so many Christian organisations along the way, so many ruined monasteries and convents ... so, all, All, are guests of the Roman Catholic church.

Don't you think?

Buen Camino

David

Coram Deo
 
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David said:
Others, of other faiths or none, heretic, pagan, Jedi, great spaghetti monster followers, can believe exactly what they want to believe - ..... but when they are going to Santiago they are on a Roman Catholic pilgrimage - this is how it is, this is why the Compostela is written in Latin, this is why there are so many Christian organisations along the way, so many ruined monasteries and convents ... so, all, All, are guests of the Roman Catholic church.

Don't you think?
Buen Camino
David
Coram Deo

Yes I do David but that may change over time (though if it does I do hope it's a very long time!)
On the 1st of May every year I make pilgrimage to 'The City' at Shrone in my home county of Kerry and 'pay the pattern'. It's a lovely local pilgrimage and one I've been making all my life.
The individual elements of this pilgrimage the saying of the Rosary & other prayers in a particular sequence, the presence of a statue of the Virgin etc are an obvious fit with my Catholic faith. Yet the fact that this site forms part of a much older pre-christian ritual landscape, that people still come to the little well to take water from it to protect their cattle (very specifically bovine intervention only!) and that the two mountains on whose slopes the shrine nestles known as The Paps (of Danu) are both capped with anatomically appropriate burial cairns shows that the most enduring 'constant' for this- and many other pilgrimages-is the continuity of the need for people to worship, rather than the ownership of or custodial rights to a pilgrimage site or route by a particular faith or belief system. The presence of such ancient 'resonances' don't disturb me at all but serve to enrich and amplify my own faith.

'We always have the urge to dance....it's only the tune that changes!'


http://liminalentwinings.com/the-city-s ... -day-2013/
 
I couldn't agree with you more, Nell - absolutely! - I suppose I was only really saying that, at this time, in this place (that place) it is Rome who speaks for the pilgrimage to Santiago.

Buen Camino :wink:
 
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David said:
so, all, All, are guests of the Roman Catholic church.

Don't you think?

I do think, David, which is why I don't think your analysis is particularly useful. Pilgrimage seems to me to be about the pilgrim, not about the symbols and structures, nor about the physical and moral support offered. These are aids to the pilgrim in whatever inner journey they are on - important, no doubt, but they are not the pilgrim's journey.

In my mind, it makes little difference what religious tradition one observes, if indeed one observes any at all. There is some suggestion that the Catholic church openly accepted that non-Catholics would undertake the Camino de Santiago, and welcomed such pilgrims. It would seem that the Catholic Church in times past was less concerned about the trappings identified by the cleric in Jack Hitt's article, and more concerned about welcoming the stranger we all are when we undertake a pilgrimage. If that is so, then the pagans and heathens would have been welcome, perhaps not to take over, but certainly to participate.

So its not about the rules and prescriptions of Rome. Rome might support the externalities of the Camino, and guide Catholics on their inner journey, but it doesn't demand that everyone follows the path it describes.


Regards,
 
Don't forget that the first pilgrimages to Santiago occurred when the only form of Christianity was that now known as Catholic. So other Christian denominations also share that heritage.
 
True, quite true - we are all pilgrims in one form or another, regardless of adherence to any particular religon or set of beliefs - of course - but, my point is that, when a person undertakes the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela that person is undertaking a Roman Catholic pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela and therefore it is to Rome that we have to look to identify what is going on, as they are the authority (or franchisee if you prefer).

I am not a Roman Catholic but do attend a Roman Catholic church - the senior priest, a Monsignor, an old Irishman, a wise, funny, serious, deep, and delightful man once told me "we have plenty of room for heretics in here" - one of the things that I really like about Catholicism (now they don't burn them anymore, of course).

So - how one wishes to describe one's own pilgrimage, or definition of 'pilgrim' is irrelevant, it has no meaning, no external validity, it is just a personal opinion, just thoughts made up in one's head - in this Age of the Individual the norm has become - "whatever I think has merit, merely because I think it" - which is patently incorrect. So - the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela has only one authority, and that authority is called Pope Francis.

So - we are All guests of Rome - which I rather like :wink:
 
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Kanga said:
Don't forget that the first pilgrimages to Santiago occurred when the only form of Christianity was that now known as Catholic. So other Christian denominations also share that heritage.

I think you will find that following the Reformation, the Lutheran churches actively rejected the notion of pilgrimage, and in so doing stopped sharing that heritage. Pilgrimages were banned. There was no shared Christian heritage, only a Catholic one, for most of the time from the mid-16th century until relatively recently.
 
The Catholic Church does not assert that the bones at the Cathedral are those of James. How, then, can it be an exclusively Catholic pilgrimage? If the bones are a fraud, is a pilgrimage to them a fraud?

Perhaps it is time for science to test the bones and verify their authenticity. The test results could separate fact from faith.

Weren't both the warp and weft of the Emporer's clothes imaginary? If only one was imaginary, would he still have been naked, or would the factual material have clothed him?
 
falc, you may think too literally, too worldly ... whose bones are in the casket is completely unimportant. The pilgrimage isn't a fact-finding mission, it is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage :wink:
 
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falcon269 said:
Weren't both the warp and weft of the Emporer's clothes imaginary? If only one was imaginary, would he still have been naked, or would the factual material have clothed him?

I think we need both for one without the other means the fabric falls apart and all the weavers and the wearers are left with is a mess of threads.....with which to tie themselves in knots.
 
falcon269 said:
David: Are you stating a fact or an opinion?
I think David has already answered that:

David said:
it is just a personal opinion, just thoughts made up in one's head - in this Age of the Individual the norm has become - "whatever I think has merit, merely because I think it" - which is patently incorrect.
:?
 
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No guys - the thoughts that come up in ones head can be checked against external reality, this is what decides whether they have merit or not - I have been writing about external reality - it is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage :wink:

Buen Camino Peregrinos/as
 
The Archconfraternity with headquarters in the Cathedral is a Catholic lay organization to support Christian pilgrimage. It approves other confraternities if they are properly organized, including approval of a Bishop. Are any of the Confraternities Protestant based?

So it is a Catholic pilgrimage, soft peddled as Christian for unexplained reasons! I have always wondered if it is marketing to get converts or economic to get money, or if non-Catholics are something slightly less than welcome! The category of Religious and Other does not seem to me to flow logically from the history, dogma, or religion of the pilgrimage and Catholic Church. A Compostela for non-Catholics is nicely inclusive, but very illogical.

"Pagans" are free to follow the yellow arrows, but I think they are fooling themselves if they call it a pilgrimage. Perhaps it is more accurate to call it a contemplative walk. Ditto Protestants...
 
falcon269 said:
The category of Religious and Other does not seem to me to flow logically from the history, dogma, or religion of the pilgrimage and Catholic Church. A Compostela for non-Catholics is nicely inclusive, but very illogical.
"Given that many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church, and others are not believers, I give this blessing from my heart, in silence, to each one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you, but knowing that each one of you is a child of God." - Pope Francis
Speaking to journalists and media workers – New York Times. March 16, 2013

Buen Camino
Colin
 
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Colin,
You have just turned me into a Pope Francis fan! His blessing says it all.
 
I think, Falcon, that pilgrims are a pre-Christian invention! Originally it meant a person living in, or travelling in a foreign land. It then became attached to travelling to a sacred site, or for a spiritual reason. But not just in Christianity, in other religions and belief systems too.
You only have to see the 'deposited' objects in our ancient Uk sites (some famous like Stonehenge) and holy wells etc. Let alone the pilgrimage of Ancient Greeks to Delphi and other sacred sites, the Hindu pilgrimages and Oriental - all pre-Christian.
A 'contemplative walk' IS a pilgrimage - it is your business, and yours alone whether it is deemed to be Christian, Pagan or of any other belief. Christianity has 'borrowed' many things from us pagans - please be tolerant enough to share them with us!
Also is it not written at Roncevalles -
The door lies open to all, to sick and strong,
Not only to Catholics but to pagans too
Jews, heretics,
idlers, vagabonds,
In short, to good and bad, sacred and profane.
From a good, bad, sacred but not profane pagan...
 
falcon269 said:
The Archconfraternity with headquarters in the Cathedral is a Catholic lay organization to support Christian pilgrimage. It approves other confraternities if they are properly organized, including approval of a Bishop. Are any of the Confraternities Protestant based?

So it is a Catholic pilgrimage, soft peddled as Christian for unexplained reasons! I have always wondered if it is marketing to get converts or economic to get money, or if non-Catholics are something slightly less than welcome! The category of Religious and Other does not seem to me to flow logically from the history, dogma, or religion of the pilgrimage and Catholic Church. A Compostela for non-Catholics is nicely inclusive, but very illogical.

"Pagans" are free to follow the yellow arrows, but I think they are fooling themselves if they call it a pilgrimage. Perhaps it is more accurate to call it a contemplative walk. Ditto Protestants...

Well, there are pilgrim walks in Sweden too. Old routes and new.
And as you can see..: http://m.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?id=643585
(That was the website of the Swedish church which is Lutheran)
They are working on the long route which will connect Santiago with Vadstena and Nidaros, which will unite us. So it will be a long pilgrim route between holy places, supported by the Lutheran church in one end and the catholic at the other end.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Susannafromsweden said:
They are working on the long route which will connect Santiago with Vadstena and Nidaros, which will unite us. So it will be a long pilgrim route between holy places, supported by the Lutheran church in one end and the catholic at the other end.
Hola Susanna,
That would be quite a walk. I found Vadstena on the map but is Nideros the one in Sweden or Nidaros Cathedral (Nidaros Domkirke), Kongsgårdsgata, Trondheim, Norway?
Can you tell us what the significance of Vadstena and Nidaros is to Lutherans.
Buen Camino
Colin
 
nellpilgrim said:
falcon269 said:
An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.

One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief.

Science itself has not been nor is free of it's own rigid orthodoxies and all that that implies for free enquiry/alternative interpretations.
Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?

The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.

The unchanging things are about the procedure used to discover how the world works and not the outcomes. Indeed the beliefs scientists hold about the world are ALWAYS conditional and the procedures of science are ALWAYS designed to falsify the beliefs through rigorous testing. Laws such as that of general relativity are only temporarily held to be true, and only as long as the army of researchers who are working on testing such theories have not yet found a fault in them. In fact, you may remember that last year the part of General Relativity which states that no particle or wave can travel faster than the speed of light, was under some question because researchers at CERN thought that neutrinos passed through the earth from Switzerland to Italy were arriving too fast and seemed to be traveling faster than the speed of light. The detailed findings and procedure were tested by other groups and an error was found in the calculations. This is not a failure, it is the way science proceeds: testing,publication, theorising, the work repeated by others and compared.
 
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colinPeter said:
Susannafromsweden said:
They are working on the long route which will connect Santiago with Vadstena and Nidaros, which will unite us. So it will be a long pilgrim route between holy places, supported by the Lutheran church in one end and the catholic at the other end.
Hola Susanna,
That would be quite a walk. I found Vadstena on the map but is Nideros the one in Sweden or Nidaros Cathedral (Nidaros Domkirke), Kongsgårdsgata, Trondheim, Norway?
Can you tell us what the significance of Vadstena and Nidaros is to Lutherans.
Buen Camino
Colin

Hola,
Yes that would be something. :wink:
Nidaros is Trondheim in Norway. I believe the cathedral there (today) is Lutheran, too.
They will reopen an old pilgrim route in September between Selånger in Sweden and Nidaros:
A link in English :
http://www.stolavsleden.com/en/about-st ... tradition/
Lots of information there. I want to walk it.
And Vadstena is the church of the Holy Birgitta.
They have a pilgrims centre there, link in Swedish:
http://www.pilgrimscentrum.se/
About the holy Birgitta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_of_Sweden
And as you can see the Swedish (Lutheran) church is involved in these pilgrim walks (today!) so its perfectly ok for a Protestant to go for a pilgrim walk.
 
David said:
No guys - the thoughts that come up in ones head can be checked against external reality, this is what decides whether they have merit or not - I have been writing about external reality - it is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage :wink:

Buen Camino Peregrinos/as

But that doesn't entirely make sense does it? What makes it a Catholic, or another sort of pilgrimage is the intention of the pilgrim, not the structure or the history of the road. If an atheist walks the route he does not become a Catholic Pilgrim, and as has already been pointed out more than once, the route's use as a pilgrim trail precedes the Christian era.

It is a Catholic pilgrimage for the many Catholics who walk it, and much joy to them. I wish them well and respect their journey. It is for them to define what they do and what it means to them. The fact that there are tens of thousands of others walking the series of paths which make up the Camino, requires that we respect their motives and beliefs too. The infrastructure of religious houses and cathedrals are a part of the way and a welcome one to me from the point of view of cultural enquiry and indeed places to rest. Would we say that the fact that the path passes millions of vines and dozens of wineries makes it a pilgrimage to Bachus? I think not, though I have seen the odd bacchanalian character glugging wine and filling multiple bottles at the free wine fountain outside Estella. One was decidedly the worse for wear by the time I saw him in Los Arcos. He must have had a lot of patience, since the flow of wine from the tap was rather slow.

When I first walked the Camino Frances in about 1997, I stayed the first night at Roncevalles after crossing the Route Napoleon. I well remember a young monk there asked all of us who stayed to fill in a survey form declaring our motivation for doing the pilgrimage. As I recall the categories were religious, cultural and sporting. They subdivided the religious part under Catholic and non Catholic Christians. There was no sense that non-Catholics or non-Religious people were unwelcome there - a sense I do not entirely feel here, I am sorry to say.
 
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
tony1951 said:
The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims? :wink:

I'm not sure what you are asking. Pilgrims are subject to gravity in the same way all other bodies having mass are subject to gravity. On the planet Earth, gravity exerts an acceleration of 9.81 meters per second squared to objects near its surface.

If you want to know about gravity, the best thing I can do is point you to this wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth
 
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PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
tony1951 said:
The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims? :wink:

Some pilgrims don't understand the gravity of their situation :wink:
 
As I was eating breakfast, a group passed by. The hospitalero wrinkled his nose and shook his head. "Touristos. No mochilas," he said. He has a few compostelas and a clear idea of pilgrimage. He doesn't take reservations or accept bags. I did not ask, but I would guess that he thinks the Camino is a Catholic pilgrimage. That would best fit his apparent world view.
 
I have just finished walking the Camino for a whole variety of religious and other reasons. The one about losing weight was a failure. I have walked with people of every shade of belief, from priests to people who strongly believe that religion is the source of all evil. I am a member of the Chrurch of England, but last week I received Communion at 4 Masses, 2 of which were in Santiago Cathedral. I claimed my Compostela but don't really believe it has any power. When I die, God (who is beyond my human comprehension) will no doubt decide what happens next, but I believe He/She is greater than any limitations we might put on Him/Her though our theological deliberations. I am certain that God smiles at the sight of all his fallible human being toiling along to Santiago under a blazing sun burdered down with rucksacks. We are good people and we are loved. Nothing is really more important than that.
 
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tony1951 said:
as has already been pointed out more than once, the route's use as a pilgrim trail precedes the Christian era.
I have long been interested in this but still have not found any 'primary source' for the statement. As Wikipedia would say "citation needed"!
I think those who claim "Pagan" as a statement of faith would be upset at the use commonly made of the term as a catch all for "unbeliever". It is certainly not a term I would use when refering to "athiests".
Not knowing exactly what the OP meant by "pagan" but having a good guess, knowing her of old, my reply would be;-
I do not think that pagans (religious definition) will take over the Camino! Those I know are more 'open minded' than many christians and some have moved on in their spiritual journey, thanks to the experience of The Way!
Blessings
Tio Tel
 
colinPeter said:
Can you tell us what the significance of Vadstena and Nidaros is to Lutherans.
Buen Camino
Colin
I like the explanation at http://pilegrimsleden.no/en/pilgrim. When I walked St Olav's Way, there was much more emphasis on the cultural, natural history and spiritual reasons for making the pilgrimage, NOT on there being a religious rationale. This seemed generally consistent with my (relatively simple) understanding of the Norse Church's Lutheran roots, with its rejection of pilgrimage as a religious practice when it was formed in the early 16thC along with other elements of Catholic practice relating to indulgences and the veneration of saints.
 
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tony1951 said:
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Hi Tony,
Thank you for reacting seriously! It strikes me that in this thread old-school questions are discussed again as if the were new, while we and many others did that already at length at least 5 years ago.

This Forum excells in dealing with all minute details pilgrims can think of while all basic questions [did Santiago exist in the flesh, was he catholic, did he go to Spain and was he buried there?] have already been answered, while major issues [earlier The Santiago Enigma and now gravity as a major factor] are still almost ignored. Of course there are more enigmas but these two excite me most.

Isn't it fascinating that the force that touches pilgrims most is basicly not understood? We can deal with hunger and thirst, overcome pain and lack of sleep, put our worries and anxieties aside for a while, but we cannot switch off for a single moment gravity that wears all of us out all day long.

Isn't that intriguing, captivating and tempting?

The best experts in the field say that they really have no clue what gravity is and that it will take some time to discover. So the suggestion was to take a different approach, a new way of thinking and looking at it. Already weaving and the joke with the Camel box were mentioned as possible eye-openers, so my hope is that when more pilgrims try we could find beautiful insights together.

Now wouldn't that be a nice way of communicating in the best of traditions that are at stake here?

PM me if you like.
Thanks,
Geerτ
 
falcon269 wrote:
"An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.

One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief."

nellpilgrim wrote
"Science itself has not been nor is free of it's own rigid orthodoxies and all that that implies for free enquiry/alternative interpretations.
Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?"

Tony 1951 wrote
"The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.

The unchanging things are about the procedure used to discover how the world works and not the outcomes. Indeed the beliefs scientists hold about the world are ALWAYS conditional and the procedures of science are ALWAYS designed to falsify the beliefs through rigorous testing. Laws... are only temporarily held to be true, and only as long as the army of researchers who are working on testing such theories have not yet found a fault in them. In fact, you may remember that last year the part of General Relativity which states that no particle or wave can travel faster than the speed of light, was under some question because researchers at CERN thought that neutrinos passed through the earth from Switzerland to Italy were arriving too fast and seemed to be traveling faster than the speed of light. The detailed findings and procedure were tested by other groups and an error was found in the calculations. This is not a failure, it is the way science proceeds: testing,publication, theorising, the work repeated by others and compared."


And a lovely pure way of doing business it is....if let. I'm an admirer and advocate of scientific enquiry and methodology-good grief without it I'd be long gone. The example you cite of CERN demonstrated just how well that process can work.
My concern is that the very purity of the system can lead practitioners, and the larger scientific community, to be a little complacent and extend their absolute confidence in method to the human environment in which such 'methodological orthodoxies' are applied. In short are the pure waters of objective scientific process and procedure ever sullied by the 'cherished beliefs' of a scientific status quo who, for whatever reasons, might have a penchant for 'the known' or find 'the impossible' an anathema rather than an exciting scientific challenge? And could such beliefs have an impact on scientific discovery and truth? If not then then making a discovery that challenged scientific orthodoxy would NEVER be unreasonably difficult and ALWAYs be enabled and supported by the scientific establishment.

In 1982 the future (2011) Nobel prize winner for Chemistry Prof. Dan Shechtman as well as making the 'game changing' discovery of quasi-crystals also discovered the almost 'game stoping' power of scientific orthodoxy.
There was little that was 'conditional' about the resistance shown at all levels in the scientific community to his discovery. The head of his lab told him "Danny this cannot be....you are a disgrace to the group" so Shechtman had to leave the group and become a sort of 'scientific orphan' for a while wandering in the funding wilderness, his methodologies were said to be unsound which was untrue and said by people who refused to test such a 'crackpot theory' themselves, he found great difficulty in getting anyone to test his theory and those few braves souls that eventually did were told to do it 'in their own time and to make sure it doesn't interfere with your real work", when he got the verified results it took him two years of banging on doors to get the results into a peer reviewed publication and then "all hell broke loose" (not in a good way). This relentless ridicule wasn't just from his peers and immediate superiors it came from the very heart of the scientific establishment. Two-time Nobel laureate Prof. Linus Pauling at a science conference in front of an audience of hundreds denounced Shechtman labeling him a " quasi-scientist." and stated that there were no such things as quasi-crystals (now that's pretty absolute statement I'd say). Being 'dissed' by your 'lab buddies' is one thing being ridiculed by the scientific establishment through the mouthpiece of a laureate in front of 100's at a conference is....well like a Catholic being excommunicated by God..... on youtube!

The range and seriousness of the assaults on Dan Shechtman's integrity are intimated by the words of the usually diplomatic Lesley Yellowlees, president of the Royal Society of Chemistry, who said "Dan Shechtman's Nobel prize celebrated not only a fascinating and beautiful discovery, but also dogged determination against the closed-minded ridicule of his peers, including leading scientists of the day" There was nothing 'conditional' about the beliefs of the scientific community who resisted his discovery indeed their adherence to the 'norm' was as 'absolute' as it could be.

Using ridicule as a form of covert censorship to keep the orthodox ship afloat is dirty, difficult to police and common to most human groups and organisations including the scientific community.
It wasn't until 1992,10 years after his discovery, that the International Union of Crystallography accepted that quasi-periodic materials must exist and altered its definition of what a crystal is.

Dan Shechtman is proving as gracious in victory as he was determined in apparent defeat and it's wonderful that he has received the ultimate accolade of the Nobel prize....30 years after his discovery.

But what if it hadn't been Dan Shechtman who spotted those tricky crystals but someone with a backbone of mere steel instead of titanium, or a young post doc student who needed to keep his boss 'sweet' or if he'd had a partner like me who'd have said "vital research me neck that's our mortgage you're playing with bucko-so go suck up and apologise"? What would have happened to his research then? Do all scientists ALWAYS have the guts to stand their ground against scientific orthodoxies and ALWAYs allow the stringent impartial protocol and objective procedures to be applied with equal vigor to all theories equally- even those that are unsettling, unfashionable or 'off trend' (especially in these days of 'funding restrictions' and research beauty contests run and adjudicated by 'industry interests' ) Perhaps it would help by scientists being made aware of and admitting to the possibility of orthodoxy getting a stranglehold on truth within their own community.
 
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David said:
Marvellous!!!!!!!! :!: :!: :!: :!:

Well thank you David I posted in the spirit of lively debate that has always informed this forum....but will I be persona non grata with the forum boffins now? (...and yes you know who you are :lol: )
N
 
Nell: I don't see how having flawed scientists invalidates science. Religions are equally protective of orthodoxy, but the debate ends when the word of god is invoked. Scientists keep digging, and are impossible to silence. Would that the Catholic Church should be open minded on the work of its American nuns.

And there are thousands of scientists who stand their ground. Singling one out is a bit unfair to the rest! :D
 
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€46,-
Fascinating Thread, great to see all the 'usual suspects', but I am really too too tired to get involved as I came home last night having spent two weeks volunteering in the pilgrim office in Santiago de Compostela and am off within three days to the sand dunes in Fanore (golden strand) on the west coast of Ireland, just about two thousand klm due north of Finesterre.

However I have to throw in my twopence halfpenny worth.

I think that a pilgrim is someone who leaves their everyday life to journey to some place that in their opinion is 'holy'. The journeying is as important as the arriving.

Long long ago the Romans, and maybe others before them, journeyed to Finesterre. For about 1200 years christians have journeyed to the place where they believe the mortal remains of St. James the Apostle were buried and still remain. The route has become known as the Camino de Santiago. In recent times many walkers and cyclists have also used the route because of the many facilities along the way. We all mingle together.

If you like to sit and drink bear from 3pm until late you meet and talk with other like minded people. If you like to go to mass each evening you also meet people who do the same thing.
Who can tell with certainty the deeper thoughts and reasons and longings of any other person?

However when pilgrims come into the Officino del Peregrinos they are asked why they have come and they are given three options: religious, spiritual, other.

The vast majority say that they have come for a religious or spiritual reason. I don't have the exact figure and cannot find the web site at the moment but I would hazard at guess at 95 percent. Someone will correct me! no doubt!!!

I met them. I welcomed them, congratulated them and smiled at them, laughed and cried with them and hugged them, and rolled their compostelas and carefully placed them in a cardboard tube so that they would arrive home in good condition. During the first 13 days I was there 15,451 pilgrims came through. That is the exact figure.

I do not think that large numbers of these people were telling lies just to get a compostela. Why on earth would a pagan want a document stating that they have journeyed " for love of God".

The Pilgrim Office recognises and respects that some come for 'other' reasons and they are given a Certificate.

I can just imagine the controversy that this might engender, but I won't be here to see it. I'll be "Camping with Jesus " on the mighty sand dunes of Fanore and looking at the same ocean that washes the rocks and cliffs all along the Atlantic coast and thinking that maybe some pilgrims I met and welcomed are now on the beach due South of me..
 
Lydia Gillen said:
I do not think that large numbers of these people were telling lies just to get a compostela. Why on earth would a pagan want a document stating that they have journeyed " for love of God".
I think the difficulty here, Lydia (and thank you very much for your time and your two cents worth!) is that while we are conflating religious/spiritual with a Christian God, many of those walking for spiritual reasons would find that entirely unnecessary, hence the rather loosely put together "Pagan/pagan" designation (and I see no need for the capital letter) and therein lies the question.
Most people don´t have the faintest idea what their Compostela says, and anyway, take away the capital G and maybe there isn´t much of a difference between the groups anyway. Pilgrims want the Compostela, not the Historical/Cultural certificate (I have three Compostelas, one Historical/Cultural certificate and a Fisterrana and I rather like the last best). Not lies exactly, just a shuffling of terminology.
A "pagan", as was explained very early on in this thread is the country dweller:
Tincatinker said:
Ah, "old Paganus"' the villager, the country dweller. Rejecting all these monotheistic institutions imposed by the powerful and instead embracing the old gods of fire and wind, those that babble in the brooks and groan deep in the ground. Still following the sun to the end of the world.

For the love of God, or the love off gods??? Religious OR spiritual, and perhaps very rarely both.
 
tony1951 said:
When I first walked the Camino Frances in about 1997, I stayed the first night at Roncevalles after crossing the Route Napoleon. I well remember a young monk there asked all of us who stayed to fill in a survey form declaring our motivation for doing the pilgrimage. As I recall the categories were religious, cultural and sporting. They subdivided the religious part under Catholic and non Catholic Christians. There was no sense that non-Catholics or non-Religious people were unwelcome there - a sense I do not entirely feel here, I am sorry to say.
Hola Tony,
I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling not entirely welcome here. I have found your posts here most welcome. From my experience of my two Caminos, so only a novice, it is welcoming to people of various faiths and non-faiths. Part of the enjoyment of the camino is the exchange of viewpoints along the way.
However, if another pilgrim was to say to me along the way, "there is no god", I would walk beside them all they way to Santiago saying "there is a God". Of course we would need to be polite and respectful to each over along the way. I think that is all that is happening here, with people expressing their views as feel appropriate. Now, the thread didn't have to develope as it has, but along the way it was implied "there is no god".
However, the question that started the thread was along the lines of "were pagans taking over". As has been suggestedout along the way, the only empirica evidence we have regarding this is most likely the pilgrim office statistics. That IMHO should be the answer to the question.
Like many others, I would be comfortable with a seperate thread on "the existence of God", at least people would know what they were getting into if they contributed.
Buen Camino
Colin
 
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falcon269 said:
Nell: I don't see how having flawed scientists invalidates science. Religions are equally protective of orthodoxy, but the debate ends when the word of god is invoked. Scientists keep digging, and are impossible to silence. Would that the Catholic Church should be open minded on the work of its American nuns.

And there are thousands of scientists who stand their ground. Singling one out is a bit unfair to the rest! :D


Let me reiterate.....

In response to me saying
"Science itself has not been nor is free of it's own rigid orthodoxies and all that that implies for free enquiry/alternative interpretations"

Tony 1951 replied.
"The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
The unchanging things are about the procedure used to discover how the world works and not the outcomes. Indeed the beliefs scientists hold about the world are ALWAYS conditional and the procedures of science are ALWAYS designed to falsify the beliefs through rigorous testing. Laws... are only temporarily held to be true, and only as long as the army of researchers who are working on testing such theories have not yet found a fault in them"

The point of my subsequent reply to Tony's statement was to illustrate that orthodoxies or absolute beliefs are indeed present in the scientific establishment and by using the personal testament of Prof. Dan Shechtman's own experience show how that fact needs to be acknowledged by the scientific community in order to avoid the repetition of close minded ridicule of a valid theory and to guard those stringent standards and integrity of researchers such as those at CERN. Dan Shechtman's work was repeatedly denied access to that very process of rigorous testing by peers, when such testing eventually occurred (and proved positive) the the results were then ridiculed, he had great difficulty getting them published and he was personally vilified. Just a regular day at the lab then?

In that reply I never said that science was invalidated by orthodoxy. I pointed out that the scientific establishment can be rigid and defensive about challenging it own 'cherished beliefs' (in this particular instance it was simply thought to be impossible that instead of the regular pattern as seen in other crystallised materials the atoms in Shechtmans quasi crystals were arranged so that they were regular but never repeated) and that this gives rise to flaws in the application of the correct "methodological orthodoxy" of rigid tests simply by denying the application of such testing to all theories equally and fairly.

I never said that Religions weren't orthodox! For Gods sake Falcon sure the world and his wife know that Rome is (with apologies to the Russian, Greek and Armenian churches) 'Orthodox central' it's hardly 'breaking news' nor does Rome deny it and indeed gets plenty of stick on that account on this forum as well as elsewhere. Identifying/challenging/examining orthodoxies and their impact within any organisation can be an invigorating and positive process. So by pointing out the orthodoxy of the Roman Catholic church you are helping it in the long term (steady now Falcon find somewhere to sit down and get a glass of water I know that must come as something of a shock)

Dismissing my point that rigid orthodoxy can exist within the scientific establishment by saying "scientists keep digging and are impossible to be silenced" is not only disingenuous it's damaging to the scientific community (Though I did like the emoticon I'm a sucker for those). The resistance to and delay in the transfer of important new scientific knowledge is nothing to be proud of or joke about-Dan Shechtman doesn't think so. Nor was this a case of just 'one bad apple in an otherwise perfect barrel' that 'put the breaks' on a discovery so important Shechtman eventually got a Nobel prize for his work. On the contrary there was 'groupthink' from the top to bottom of the scientific community laughing anyone?.... not so much. I am delighted that the under the outspoken leadership of people such as Dan Shechtman scientists are now beginning to discuss orthodoxy within the scientific establishment and the impact that has had and could continue to have in the future. It's about time... that elephant has been sitting in the lab for quite a while.


At the very start of my reply to Tony I acknowledged the integrity and scientific vigor of scientists such as those at CERN and elsewhere. By singling out Dan Shechtman's acheivement in standing his particular ground in the face of such overwhelming resistance from the highest scientific echelons I'm was not ignoring "the 1000's of scientists who (also) stand their ground" in labs throughout the world. Indeed I was intent on doing my very small part to protect their ability to continue to do so. And I'm not alone in presenting Prof. Shectman as an outstanding example- numerous scientific journalists and Prof. Lesley Yellowlees chairman of the prestigious society of his peers (and an eminent chemist in her own right) chose to specifically highlight that aspect of his narrative and for good reason. Dan Shechtman's battle to have his discovery tested and accepted shows us that not only can a determined David win but that the Goliath of scientific orthodoxy exists.
 
Priscillian said:
I think the difficulty here, Lydia.......
Hola Priscillian,
There is no difficulty.
Priscillian said:
What do YOU think?
It doesn't really matter what we think, the only documentary answer available is the statistics given by the pilgrim office.
Buen Camino
Colin
 
Hola,

If only, according to my church, :arrow: :arrow: true Catholics would walk the Way to Santiago it would be very quiet on the road. I would not be there. Yet I am a Catholic.
 
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nellpilgrim said:
Dan Shechtman's battle to have his discovery tested and accepted shows us that not only can a determined David win but that the Goliath of scientific orthodoxy exists.
Another eye-opener: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/ ... -interview - 'Shechtman was the sole winner of the Nobel prize for chemistry in 2011, for his discovery of seemingly impossible crystal structures in metal alloys. Instead of the regular pattern seen in other crystallised materials, the atoms in his "quasi-period materials" were arranged so that they were regular but never repeated. It is a type of pattern seen in the tiled Islamic mosaics at the Alhambra Palace in Spain and the Darb-i Imamshrine in Iran, but which had never been thought could exist in nature.'

We're getting closer already!
 
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:
nellpilgrim said:
Dan Shechtman's battle to have his discovery tested and accepted shows us that not only can a determined David win but that the Goliath of scientific orthodoxy exists.
Another eye-opener: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/ ... -interview - 'Shechtman was the sole winner of the Nobel prize for chemistry in 2011, for his discovery of seemingly impossible crystal structures in metal alloys. Instead of the regular pattern seen in other crystallised materials, the atoms in his "quasi-period materials" were arranged so that they were regular but never repeated. It is a type of pattern seen in the tiled Islamic mosaics at the Alhambra Palace in Spain and the Darb-i Imamshrine in Iran, but which had never been thought could exist in nature.'

We're getting closer already!


Yes there are one of two other recently discovered natural 'wonder structures' patterns that have a mirror image in Islamic pattern making. Isn't that intriguing? :)
 
nellpilgrim said:
Isn't that intriguing? :)
Yes, very! I bet we would agree on the subject within a few minutes, depending how good the coffee is. You already made my day! Thank you. I'm off to the beach now, very lightheartedly :D
 
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marian55 said:
Hola,

If only, according to my church, :arrow: :arrow: true Catholics would walk the Way to Santiago it would be very quiet on the road. I would not be there. Yet I am a Catholic.

The only qualification you need to be a pilgrim is that you're a sinner seeking redemption through penance of a particular sort....and I've never met anyone yet who's who's failed to qualify for the first criteria at least :wink:
 
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