Toilet paper, litter and graffiti

[mohewitt]

Toilet paper…how hard can it be really to pick the TP up and dispose of it later? Don’t think it goes unnoticed because everyone else uses the same spots of cover. Women, I’m calling you out.

Litter…would you be okay if someone left their crap/garbage in your yard at home? Enough said.

Graffiti… find a way to make your mark on the world without a Sharpie pen or paint.

 

[naplesdon]

You are preaching to the choir, my friend. There are those of us who do "Ditch Pig Gigs" annually and clean up after other inconsiderate fellow pilgrims. There are those of us who carrying litter bags and pick-up stuff along the Way. Then there are those on the Camino that could literally give a "shit" and leave theirs for others to clean up.

 

[Former member 104756]

You are preaching to the choir, my friend.

I see similar comments whenever this topic comes up. And while I agree @estorildon that is likely the case that many who read this post are in ‘the choir’, I’m not one of those who subscribe to the theory that no forum member would ever do such a thing. So I appreciate your post @mohewitt If it strikes a chord with even one or two forum members who leave their litter, then it’s worthwhile.

I walked today on the Napoleon Route from SJPP to Roncesvalles. It was as glorious as I remembered, except for some litter, toilet paper and graffiti, thankfully just in a few spots. Not a huge amount but still too much. I almost cried.

 

[JesperK]

Getting close to fonzebadon going up you pass a shelter - so I sat for a while resting before the next part. Before leaving I needed to relieve myself so I stepped behind the shelter and I was astonished. It was probably the biggest pile of tp I have ever seen. I was so ashamed I held it in until I got to the village and the bar/restaurant/albergue, cant remember the name.

 

[J Willhaus]

Yes, that's why I don't often stop at established rest areas along the Camino and if you do have to relieve yourself, you need to walk gingerly to avoid piles of #2! I always carry a tp emergency kit of sandwich bag, tissue, and hand wipe for after.

 

[naplesdon]

Getting close to fonzebadon going up you pass a shelter - so I sat for a while resting before the next part. Before leaving I needed to relieve myself so I stepped behind the shelter and I was astonished. It was probably the biggest pile of tp I have ever seen. I was so ashamed I held it in until I got to the village and the bar/restaurant/albergue, cant remember the name.

The shelter at the top of Alto de Mostelares after Castrojeriz might as well be called an open latrine. The piles of poo and paper behind it require a tractor to do the clean up.

 

[JesperK]

The shelter at the top of Alto de Mostelares after Castrojeriz might as well be called an open latrine. The piles of poo and paper behind it require a tractor to do the clean up.

Forgot about that one. You are right.

 

[AnaZ]

You are preaching to the choir, my friend. There are those of us who do "Ditch Pig Gigs" annually and clean up after other inconsiderate fellow pilgrims. There are those of us who carrying litter bags and pick-up stuff along the Way. Then there are those on the Camino that could literally give a "shit" and leave theirs for others to clean up.

I've read somewhere that humans that typically wouldn't engage in negative practices, in this case leaving behind garbage (TP or any kind) are many times more likely to do it, if it is already evidence that is been done for a while.

So to that person leaving behind the TP, shame on you twice if you did it when the place was clean. Now you opened the door to more garbage.

 

[stevetay3815]

I hang on to those plastic bags that our disposable bed covers come in to dispose of the napkin from last night’s dinner—after use. Of course, keep a hand sanitizer handy too.

 

[KCJ]

Toilet paper…how hard can it be really to pick the TP up and dispose of it later? Don’t think it goes unnoticed because everyone else uses the same spots of cover. Women, I’m calling you out.

Litter…would you be okay if someone left their crap/garbage in your yard at home? Enough said.

Graffiti… find a way to make your mark on the world without a Sharpie pen or paint.

I’m afraid you’re preaching to the choir.

 

[simoncooper99]

The shelter at the top of Alto de Mostelares after Castrojeriz might as well be called an open latrine. The piles of poo and paper behind it require a tractor to do the clean up.

But that is only about an hours' walk from Castrojerez! Remember to go before you set off.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

But that is only about an hours' walk from Castrojerez! Remember to go before you set off.

We're all different. No matter if you only went an hour ago or not, when you have to go, you have to go.

 

[MaryEllen]

Toilet paper…how hard can it be really to pick the TP up and dispose of it later? Don’t think it goes unnoticed because everyone else uses the same spots of cover. Women, I’m calling you out.

Litter…would you be okay if someone left their crap/garbage in your yard at home? Enough said.

Graffiti… find a way to make your mark on the world without a Sharpie pen or paint.

I totally agree. I’m a woman, and I bring a small plastic bag for such a need. As for Graffiti, I was so unimpressed seeing all the defacing that’s be done, and the obvious lack of treating property with respect. How can we change this? Does Russell really think we care about his inane messages, or those like “go soko go” …thanks for bringing this up.

 

[DeansFamily]

It was nice to walk the Frances this early spring and not have the "white paper" Camino markers leading the way.
We were quite confronted by the masses of toilet paper and rubbish on our first ever Camino (the Frances). I forward a suggestion that the Spanish government and organisations that make a considerable profit from the Camino actively protect it with a campaign of providing printed ziplock bags in all pilgrim orientated accommodations that ask for soiled toilet paper to be put in and carried and disposed of at the next destination. And invest in building toilet blocks in the problem areas like that people in this post have pointed out. The crux of the problem is that ultimately a good percentage of people only care about themselves and know they don't have to deal with what they have left behind. And this is not just a pilgrim only problem, a portion of the general public in Spain seem to be quite happy to take a dump at lookout points and rest areas (this I say from first hand experience).

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

And this is not just a pilgrim only problem, a portion of the general public in Spain seem to be quite happy to take a dump at lookout points and rest areas (this I say from first hand experience).

Haven't seen this, but what I have seen is the dropping of tissues. On two separate occasions I was following small Spanish groups and saw a couple of them use and simply drop the tissues after use. (Admittedly they were also pilgrims, not locals per se)
I suspect that it's a behaviour that is, in part, encouraged by people's beliefs that tissues are (easily) biodegradable. I say this because one of the groups was also consuming lots of sweet etc however carefully put the wrappers away....
I know from experimentation in the garden that tissues take much longer than toilet paper to degrade. It's why I encourage everybody NOT to carry tissues for emergency use, rather toilet paper.
And of course if you can't carry it with you then to bury it properly!

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

It was nice to walk the Frances this early spring and not have the "white paper" Camino markers leading the way.
We were quite confronted by the masses of toilet paper and rubbish on our first ever Camino (the Frances). I forward a suggestion that the Spanish government and organisations that make a considerable profit from the Camino actively protect it with a campaign of providing printed ziplock bags in all pilgrim orientated accommodations that ask for soiled toilet paper to be put in and carried and disposed of at the next destination. And invest in building toilet blocks in the problem areas like that people in this post have pointed out. The crux of the problem is that ultimately a good percentage of people only care about themselves and know they don't have to deal with what they have left behind. And this is not just a pilgrim only problem, a portion of the general public in Spain seem to be quite happy to take a dump at lookout points and rest areas (this I say from first hand experience).

Which organisations do you mean exactly, the albergues or restaurants that offer the menu del peregrino? I dont think they make that much profit. ( In general pilgrims are no big spenders anyway)
I think it should be the responsibility of the walker. It is ,easy to carry a roll of dogpoop bags. Preferable biodegradable. It is not a very good solution to attack one problem by enhancing another, there's allready too much plastic. Using the plastic cover of the paper sheets is a good ides

 

[naplesdon]

Haven't seen this, but what I have seen is the dropping of tissues. On two separate occasions I was following small Spanish groups and saw a couple of them use and simply drop the tissues after use. (Admittedly they were also pilgrims, not locals per se)
I suspect that it's a behaviour that is, in part, encouraged by people's beliefs that tissues are (easily) biodegradable. I say this because one of the groups was also consuming lots of sweet etc however carefully put the wrappers away....
I know from experimentation in the garden that tissues take much longer than toilet paper to degrade. It's why I encourage everybody NOT to carry tissues for emergency use, rather toilet paper.
And of course if you can't carry it with you then to bury it properly!

I don't want to single out Spanish pilgrims but cigarette butts are also and issue.

 

[Chizuru]

But that is only about an hours' walk from Castrojerez! Remember to go before you set off.

I always go just before I leave any place with a toilet. I have a motto of never pass up on a toilet. However, I need to go again only about an hour after leaving in the morning. On that day, it was at the top of the hill, and Yes, I did go just before I left. Men just don't understand the bladders of the multiple pregnancy, menopausal women! Yes, I take doggie poop bags to pick up my #2s and toilet paper that I have used.
Some of those spots are absolutely horrendous, and that spot was one of the worst.
I do wish that Spain was a bit more proactive in providing some public compostable toilets such as you see all over France's walking trails. Because these were so reliably frequent, I almost never had to do a wild toilet stop, and there was almost zero rubbish and toilet paper.

 

[Kate48]

The shelter at the top of Alto de Mostelares after Castrojeriz might as well be called an open latrine. The piles of poo and paper behind it require a tractor to do the clean up.

I was there today and disgusted by litter- there’s a bin there, for goodness sake!
I carry a small plastic bag with me and carry tp to next aseos or bin. It’s not rocket science

 

[Beeman]

It was nice to walk the Frances this early spring and not have the "white paper" Camino markers leading the way.
We were quite confronted by the masses of toilet paper and rubbish on our first ever Camino (the Frances). I forward a suggestion that the Spanish government and organisations that make a considerable profit from the Camino actively protect it with a campaign of providing printed ziplock bags in all pilgrim orientated accommodations that ask for soiled toilet paper to be put in and carried and disposed of at the next destination. And invest in building toilet blocks in the problem areas like that people in this post have pointed out. The crux of the problem is that ultimately a good percentage of people only care about themselves and know they don't have to deal with what they have left behind. And this is not just a pilgrim only problem, a portion of the general public in Spain seem to be quite happy to take a dump at lookout points and rest areas (this I say from first hand experience).

The French seem to have built nice restrooms along the Le Puy. Maybe such a thing could be done along the Frances.

 

[Julz10]

You are preaching to the choir, my friend. There are those of us who do "Ditch Pig Gigs" annually and clean up after other inconsiderate fellow pilgrims. There are those of us who carrying litter bags and pick-up stuff along the Way. Then there are those on the Camino that could literally give a "shit" and leave theirs for others to clean up.

I think the Pilgrim Office should tell everyone very clearly that they must take their own paper bag or plastic to remove their toilet paper - leave no footprints!! It’s disgraceful how many times I saw toilet paper. Truly disgusting!

 

[Former member 104756]

The French seem to have built nice restrooms along the Le Puy. Maybe such a thing could be done along the Frances.

There are a few purpose built on the Le Puy Way for walkers, though not many. My understanding is that they are a local initiative. In addition, some towns still have public toilets.

On the Le Puy, the Frances and other camino paths, there is no governing body or central organising group - and I hope it stays that way. For me the responsibility lies squarely on the walker. But I do understand the disgust and frustration. As others have said, it’s disgraceful how some people behave in relation to waste and litter. It irks other camino walkers, but imagine being a local resident out for a walk in the countryside or even at the edge of your own field.

 

[Trish1Corless]

I totally agree. I’m a woman, and I bring a small plastic bag for such a need. As for Graffiti, I was so unimpressed seeing all the defacing that’s be done, and the obvious lack of treating property with respect. How can we change this? Does Russell really think we care about his inane messages, or those like “go soko go” …thanks for bringing this up.

I 100% concur with this, and also don’t leave disgusting rubbish behind. No matter where I am or or what country I’m in! I’m wondering though… there are 1000’s of pilgrims walking The Way and it’s only going to get busier, so say the reports. The government could well choose to cater for bathroom stops. I’d be happy to pay to use a bathroom along the route. Sure, I use bathrooms in cafes along the way (and use manners and buy something in return for the favour). But it’s pretty normal in the world to have public toilets available where thousands of visitors are expected each year. Just saying. Perhaps it’s already on the cards for the future…would be a good idea.

 

[J Willhaus]

There is no overarching park service or government agency to manage a system of rest areas. Unless someone is paying for things (paper, people to clean, initial building and maintenance) I just don't see it happening to install actual toilet facilities.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

There is no overarching park service or government agency to manage a system of rest areas. Unless someone is paying for things (paper, people to clean, initial building and maintenance) I just don't see it happening to install actual toilet facilities.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but is that not also the case for the Albergues? As I understand it the various regional bodies , townships etc take care of their own, to the benefit of not just the pilgrims but of course the local populace. And of course, a few volunteer organizations and so forth - such as those you yourselves have worked for.

It has been pointed out elsewhere that without the pilgrims some of these little townships would have died out. At the very least pilgrims, and the business they bring, have certainly revitalized them.

The cynic in me says it's because toilets don't directly bring in money.
As a man I do not NEED a toilet as frequently, however as @Trish1Corless says above, when I do I would happily pay for the privilege. (Should a bar not be nearby - I do love my aquarius and cafe con leche!).
Presumably once the initial build costs have been overcome, 1/water, 2/toilet paper and 3)cleaning/maintenance would be the biggest issues.
1/There is a vast array of high quality well priced composting toilets out there nowadays. No water required.
2/ restocked every time the toilets are cleaned with the typical public toilet rolls. Yes they'll run out occasionally but most of us with any brains carry some toilet paper or worst case tissue. (Which doesn't compost as readily and often comes in nasty little plastic packets, but that's a different issue).
3/ the €1 fee would cover most if not all of the costs. Even allowing for some cheating of the system. Cleaning frequency would of course vary based on route and the number of pilgrims.

Building and maintenance of them adds of course to the local job market. A win for everybody.

Based on the numerous posts on this subject it will be very easy to identify the prime spots for these toilets !

 

[J Willhaus]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but is that not also the case for the Albergues? As I understand it the various regional bodies , townships etc take care of their own, to the benefit of not just the pilgrims but of course the local populace. And of course, a few volunteer organizations and so forth - such as those you yourselves have worked for.

It has been pointed out elsewhere that without the pilgrims some of these little townships would have died out. At the very least pilgrims, and the business they bring, have certainly revitalized them.

The cynic in me says it's because toilets don't directly bring in money.
As a man I do not NEED a toilet as frequently, however as @Trish1Corless says above, when I do I would happily pay for the privilege. (Should a bar not be nearby - I do love my aquarius and cafe con leche!).
Presumably once the initial build costs have been overcome, 1/water, 2/toilet paper and 3)cleaning/maintenance would be the biggest issues.
1/There is a vast array of high quality well priced composting toilets out there nowadays. No water required.
2/ restocked every time the toilets are cleaned with the typical public toilet rolls. Yes they'll run out occasionally but most of us with any brains carry some toilet paper or worst case tissue. (Which doesn't compost as readily and often comes in nasty little plastic packets, but that's a different issue).
3/ the €1 fee would cover most if not all of the costs. Even allowing for some cheating of the system. Cleaning frequency would of course vary based on route and the number of pilgrims.

Building and maintenance of them adds of course to the local job market. A win for everybody.

Based on the numerous posts on this subject it will be very easy to identify the prime spots for these toilets !

We have always welcomed pilgrims to come inside to use the bathroom at albergues where we work on their way through town whether they stay with us or not (if we are not out shopping, etc.) I think we have enough difficulty getting volunteers for all the albergues so not sure if there is capacity to staff a cleaning crew for toilets along the way. The National Forest pit toilets around where I live are cleaned regularly (and sometimes not so regularly), but this is either part of fees or taxpaper dollars.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

We have always welcomed pilgrims to come inside to use the bathroom at albergues where we work on their way through town whether they stay with us or not (if we are not out shopping, etc.) I think we have enough difficulty getting volunteers for all the albergues so not sure if there is capacity to staff a cleaning crew for toilets along the way. The National Forest pit toilets around where I live are cleaned regularly (and sometimes not so regularly), but this is either part of fees or taxpaper dollars.

Ummm - my reference to the hostels was with regards to the organisation, building of etc. Not the toilets, and access to them.
The areas where there are Albergues are normally residential , it's not therefore such an issue.

I certainly wasn't suggesting the cleaning was done by volunteers. What I said was is that the toilets could be at least predominantly self-supporting with the fee charged.

 

[dbier]

:::chuckle::: While the TP on the Primitivo annoyed me mightily (I buried what I could with my poles, as I didn't have an extra baggie and gloves to clean up after someone else's used waste), let's unite a couple of observations here.

1. As many have said across multiple threads, there is no one (or even one autonomous region's) agency that exists *and has funding, or receives it* to "maintain" Camino routes, or their albergues (with the exception of Galicia Xuntas), or any other services. What services we see, what maintenance we benefit from, is a hodgepodge of local and foreign donations, traveler income, and other commercial and non-commercial enterprises.

2. Take a look at a recent thread here on protests on the Primitivo (I remember seeing a lot of those banners, but I don't read Gallego). The translation provided implies that the communities that "benefit" from Camino pilgrims don't agree that they're benefitting. Just because a couple of villages have been revitalized on certain caminos does *not* mean that all villages on all caminos have received useful business or money from increased Camino usage.

So, back to the point (kinda like the hiking pole backwards shipment question, or the "how do I materially benefit/give back to the Camino" question...

...if you want to benefit the Camino, consider the following options:

- 1. In Santiago, pay the 11 euros and change that I did to Correos to ship my poles (bought in Oviedo at Decathalon) back to Oviedo's (fill in your start point here) municipal albergue or local pilgrim or tourist office for the next pilgrim.

- 2. If you like an individual albergue/cafe/service, tip them then and there. In cash, if you're a non-EU bank card holder. Or, if you can't, donate to your country's Camino pilgrim association when you get home. They'll work out a way to bundle your donation with others to make a contribution.

- 3. Bury your own waste.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

@dbier , I couldn't agree more with your points one through three about way's to benefit the Camino.

However I disagree completely with your interpretation of the protest thread. I had literally just finished reading the latest additions to that thread when you responded to this one.

Take a look at a recent thread here on protests on the Primitivo (I remember seeing a lot of those banners, but I don't read Gallego). The translation provided implies that the communities that "benefit" from Camino pilgrims don't agree that they're benefitting. Just because a couple of villages have been revitalized on certain caminos does *not* mean that all villages on all caminos have received useful business or money from increased Camino usage.

According to several of the posts, the protest are mainly about the building regulations and permissions in the area which are affected by proposed new regulations. In particular the post's from @Silencio Por Favor and @Kathar1na seem to be the most relevant.
It's also nothing to do with whether or not they feel they benefit. It's more about where the money that those additional pilgrims provide goes, or is spent.

 

[dbier]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I am reliant on translation. ;-)

 

[Trish1Corless]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but is that not also the case for the Albergues? As I understand it the various regional bodies , townships etc take care of their own, to the benefit of not just the pilgrims but of course the local populace. And of course, a few volunteer organizations and so forth - such as those you yourselves have worked for.

It has been pointed out elsewhere that without the pilgrims some of these little townships would have died out. At the very least pilgrims, and the business they bring, have certainly revitalized them.

The cynic in me says it's because toilets don't directly bring in money.
As a man I do not NEED a toilet as frequently, however as @Trish1Corless says above, when I do I would happily pay for the privilege. (Should a bar not be nearby - I do love my aquarius and cafe con leche!).
Presumably once the initial build costs have been overcome, 1/water, 2/toilet paper and 3)cleaning/maintenance would be the biggest issues.
1/There is a vast array of high quality well priced composting toilets out there nowadays. No water required.
2/ restocked every time the toilets are cleaned with the typical public toilet rolls. Yes they'll run out occasionally but most of us with any brains carry some toilet paper or worst case tissue. (Which doesn't compost as readily and often comes in nasty little plastic packets, but that's a different issue).
3/ the €1 fee would cover most if not all of the costs. Even allowing for some cheating of the system. Cleaning frequency would of course vary based on route and the number of pilgrims.

Building and maintenance of them adds of course to the local job market. A win for everybody.

Based on the numerous posts on this subject it will be very easy to identify the prime spots for these toilets !

Well said.

 

[joanonalark]

Toilet paper…how hard can it be really to pick the TP up and dispose of it later? Don’t think it goes unnoticed because everyone else uses the same spots of cover. Women, I’m calling you out.

Litter…would you be okay if someone left their crap/garbage in your yard at home? Enough said.

Graffiti… find a way to make your mark on the world without a Sharpie pen or paint.

Those who squat to pee can use a stand to pee device like the pStyle and eliminate the need for toilet paper. Be bold, pee more safely and discreetly and avoid creating a paper trail

 

[David Tallan]

I think the Pilgrim Office should tell everyone very clearly that they must take their own paper bag or plastic to remove their toilet paper - leave no footprints!! It’s disgraceful how many times I saw toilet paper. Truly disgusting!

By "Pilgrim Office" I assume that you mean the Pilgrim Office in SJPP (since hearing this from the Pilgrim Office in Santiago would be a bit late to accomplish anything).

There are a few challenges with this as a solution. Most pilgrims do not start in SJPP. Of those who do, not all check in with the Pilgrim Office. There is no requirement to do so (although it is certainly recommended, especially if the weather forecast is iffy). Even for those pilgrims who check in with the Pilgrim Office, it is hard for the staff to tell them they must do anything, since their powers of enforcement are non-existent. They could certainly encourage the practice, and hope that their words are heeded by those who hear them, but I don't know how much of a difference that would make.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The camino is a miracle of chaos flowing into grace. No one's in charge, and the people who live here aren't about to take instruction from foreigners. For a thousand years, pilgrims have done their business along the road, and the locals and fellow pilgrims have had to deal with it -- or not.
I've been cleaning up the trail for 15 years, and I've seen the changes in what waste is left behind by pilgrims. Inevitably, the rise in pilgrim numbers means a rise in pilgrim leavings. Surprisingly, there are MUCH fewer bottles and food wrappers than ever, as people are aware that littering isn't cool ... but the overwhelming majority of the waste is not litter. It is toilet paper and tissues.
Pilgrims used to know how to relieve themselves in the woods without leaving a paper trail. Pilgrims were outdoors people. Nowadays, with the pilgrimage going up-market, more hikers are indoor people who never learned to wee without a meter of toilet paper and a flush handle. They don't know how to "leave no trace." They don't know this is even a problem. They maybe paid someone to book their rooms and carry their bags and show them the way, so posters in albergues and lectures at the pilgrim office won't reach them. Telling someone how to pee or poo outside isn't exactly friendly trailside conversation.
Maybe it should be.
Human waste, and toilet paper, are biodegradable after a while. (This cannot be said for "wet wipes," which last for eternity... a product straight from Hell.) Maybe the ever-tolerant "Walk Your Own Camino" people so upset by waste on the Way need to just learn to live with this expression of personal freedom, too. Millions of past pilgrims had to put up with it. Maybe we should just suck it up and live with it, too.
Unless we're willing to stop shouting/whining/analyzing/posting photos/ and take on the job ourselves.