Walking "feels like" factor?

[Peligro]

Here's an impossible question to answer so feel free to guess without any scientific basis. Averaging the Frances and the Primitivo (not every day is Meseta nor is every day O'Cebreiro) how many kilometers on the Primitivo would you say feels like 30 kilometers on the Frances? I'm asking for a weird comparison, but I've got a good sense of how a 30 km day on the Frances feels and my body doesn't like me pushing it much beyond that. If you think this is a rediculous question hopefully it at least amuses you.

 

[Anamya]

Ohhh, despite subjective, that is an interesting question I will follow, as I'm interested in walking the Primitivo in the future (God knows when, but it will happen)

I can say that, personally, 15-18km on the Lebaniego felt like 22-25km on the Frances. It was tough for my standards.
On the other hand, the Portuguese and Frances felt pretty much the same to me.

Curious to see other people's ratios!

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Brierley attempts to do sort of what you are talking about. He tries to effect a formula that incorporates the uphills and downhills into calculations of distance. Sort of like for every kilometer going uphill on a 12% grade, equals 1.5 kilometers walking on the flat. Or something like that

 

[MichaelC]

I'd love to see this type of comparison for other caminos too! I don't know the Primitivo, but for Le Puy route and the Frances there was about a 5km / day difference for me. Very roughly:

A super easy day: 15 km on the Le Puy route, 20 km on the Frances.
A regular day: 20-25 km on Le Puy, 25-30 km on the Frances
A hard day: Over 25 / Over 30

 

[Levi]

It's just so subjective. I walked the Primitivo three weeks ago. I've done several other Caminos including the Frances and the Via de is Plata. For me, the Primitivo was definitely the most physically demanding because of the pretty much constant ascents and descents.

My internal thoughts while walking often went along the lines of " not another climb...this is killing me...I'm never ever doing this again...look at that view...that's amazing...god, not another climb....I thought I was at the top...

Now that I'm home the pain has receded but the gorgeous views and memories are still with me, and I find myself thinking that maybe I would walk it again.

And I think that if you can walk 30k on the Frances then you can walk the Primitivo on shorter daily stages. Demanding but definitely worth it.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I've got a good sense of how a 30 km day on the Frances feels

I don't.

 

[MikeJS]

Just finished the Primitivo and it was relatively simple compared to the San Salvador and Olvidado. However, I did not feel there were any particular hard long climbs. Just a few short ones that take that extra bit of effort. If you walked the Frances you can walk the Primitivo. However, unless you are fit at the start it may be better to do a week before to get the camino legs working!

 

[lt56ny]

It's just so subjective. I walked the Primitivo three weeks ago. I've done several other Caminos including the Frances and the Via de is Plata. For me, the Primitivo was definitely the most physically demanding because of the pretty much constant ascents and descents.

My internal thoughts while walking often went along the lines of " not another climb...this is killing me...I'm never ever doing this again...look at that view...that's amazing...god, not another climb....I thought I was at the top...

Now that I'm home the pain has receded but the gorgeous views and memories are still with me, and I find myself thinking that maybe I would walk it again.

And I think that if you can walk 30k on the Frances then you can walk the Primitivo on shorter daily stages. Demanding but definitely worth it.

Exactly how I thought when I walked the Norte last year!

 

[pelerine]

Well, I walked the Primitivo a few years ago and then the Salvador and do not particularly remember the ups or downs, but rather the views!

However maybe in this thread I can find the answer to a question which comes up whenever I walk another camino. Many years ago I had heard that in mountaineering circles they say for every 100 m height difference you add another km of effort to the distance you have walked. Whereupon my friends ask: Surely going down is less of an effort than going up? For me going up is always difficult. But going down steeply is also difficult and a great effort!

So for many caminos I have only considered uphill when calculating the km I have walked.

Does anybody know and have an explanation?

 

[hughb]

Here's an impossible question to answer so feel free to guess without any scientific basis. Averaging the Frances and the Primitivo (not every day is Meseta nor is every day O'Cebreiro) how many kilometers on the Primitivo would you say feels like 30 kilometers on the Frances? I'm asking for a weird comparison, but I've got a good sense of how a 30 km day on the Frances feels and my body doesn't like me pushing it much beyond that. If you think this is a rediculous question hopefully it at least amuses you.

you could simply use Naismiths rule. Used by many people on expeditions.

For every 5kms on the flat allow 1 hour, then for every 600 metres of ascent or 600 metres of severe descent add an hour. Hope that helps and makes sense.

I was in the area earlier this year and some of the climbs looked extremely severe to put it mildly. However, that is still my next camino.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

you could simply use Naismiths rule. Used by many people on expeditions.

Naismith's rule has an article in Wikipedia. The article also briefly describes some corrections to it. One involves increasing time to walk down very steep hills. I've seen other webpages on this stuff but Wikipedia has a good simple one. It doesn't describe the method that Brierley uses but since we are talking approximations we don't know who is right anyway. Brierley describes his method in the introductory material of his guide.

 

[GuyA]

Here's an impossible question to answer so feel free to guess without any scientific basis. Averaging the Frances and the Primitivo (not every day is Meseta nor is every day O'Cebreiro) how many kilometers on the Primitivo would you say feels like 30 kilometers on the Frances? I'm asking for a weird comparison, but I've got a good sense of how a 30 km day on the Frances feels and my body doesn't like me pushing it much beyond that. If you think this is a rediculous question hopefully it at least amuses you.

An interesting question and one that I have been asking myself as I plan on walking the Camino Primitivo in 2020. As mentioned there is a formula called the Naismith's rule that attempts to factor in elevation gains/losses and adjusts your pace accordingly.

I have not tested this out in any way however I did map out the Camino Primitivo and Camino Frances using the elevation gains/losses in the Buen Camino app. Attached is a quick spreadsheet outlining the stages in the Buen Camino app for the Camino Primitivo and the stages that I walked in 2014 on the Camino Frances.

A very brief summary of what the Naismith's rule adjustment...

Camino Frances

Using a pace of 4.5 km per hour on flat ground the adjustment for the entire route results in a 3.7 km per hour pace. Over the 27 days that I walked this route the average daily km would be 28.8 km and a daily ascent of 515 meters and descent of 502 meters.

Camino Primitivo

Using a pace of 4.5 km per hour on flat ground the adjustment for the entire route results in a 3.4 km per hour pace or a decrease of about 8%. Adjusting the 28.8 kms walked for the Camino Frances results in a lower daily walk of 26.5 kms.

Over 13 days one would walk 23.8 kms a day and a daily ascent of 715 meters and a descent of 707 meters...so let me see 6 years older...hmm should be possible...but...well here's hoping

Who knows if this approximation will pan out...so many factors involved over a long walk. For sure Camino Primitivo will be a slower walk...and that is perfectly ok with me!

Guy

p.s. I am not able to attach an Excel file so if anyone knows how to do this please let me know or if you want to see the file I could send it directly to you

 

[Bob from L.A. !]

It's just so subjective.

Too many variables to be accurate.....

 

[Peligro]

Camino Frances

Using a pace of 4.5 km per hour on flat ground the adjustment for the entire route results in a 3.7 km per hour pace. Over the 27 days that I walked this route the average daily km would be 28.8 km and a daily ascent of 515 meters and descent of 502 meters.

Camino Primitivo

Using a pace of 4.5 km per hour on flat ground the adjustment for the entire route results in a 3.4 km per hour pace or a decrease of about 8%. Adjusting the 28.8 kms walked for the Camino Frances results in a lower daily walk of 26.5 kms.

Over 13 days one would walk 23.8 kms a day and a daily ascent of 715 meters and a descent of 707 meters...so let me see 6 years older...hmm should be possible...but...well here's hoping

This is fantastic - I don't care if it's accurate or not I'm adopting your calculations. I got a kick out of the 6 years older factor you mentioned.

My biggest take away is that while going with the flow I'm likely to find a desirable place to stop after about 20 to 25 km and not further. For the first time ever I'll have more than enough days to spend on the Camino!!!

 

[GuyA]

Too many variables to be accurate.....

Agreed it's very subjective using a rule like Naismith's and there are so many many variables however for high level planning only...why not? It's fun to plan and then see how far off on is!

So many variables...heat, fatigue, trail conditions (cobblestones, hot asphalt, tree roots after a rainstorm on a steep descent, beautiful forest path, bushwalking or something like it), lack of sleep due to snoring, great news from home, sad news from home, rain and more rain, brilliant sunshine and the company of a fellow pilgrim who becomes a new friend and time just flies, wind, injuries, meeting a massive cow blocking the trail in Switzerland, a scary cow on the The Puy route with bloody scary horns and taking a short cut and falling in a manure patch and then accidentally touching an electrified fence etc. etc. etc. Oh and did I mention age...I could easily do this at 30 when I ran a few marathons...now at 62 could I even walk a half marathon? And the big one getting lost again and again on less traveled Camino routes...wandering around aimlessly and chewing up the km's?

Anyway that's the fun and challenge of walking Camino's...so many variables...nothing is predictable and the enjoyment of simply walking can't be beat. Looking forward to a new adventure on the Camino Primitive!

Guy

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

a scary cow on the The Puy route with bloody scary horns and taking a short cut and falling in a manure patch and then accidentally touching an electrified fence

There's a tale worth retelling.

 

[hughb]

Agreed it's very subjective using a rule like Naismith's and there are so many many variables however for high level planning only...why not? It's fun to plan and then see how far off on is!

So many variables...heat, fatigue, trail conditions (cobblestones, hot asphalt, tree roots after a rainstorm on a steep descent, beautiful forest path, bushwalking or something like it), lack of sleep due to snoring, great news from home, sad news from home, rain and more rain, brilliant sunshine and the company of a fellow pilgrim who becomes a new friend and time just flies, wind, injuries, meeting a massive cow blocking the trail in Switzerland, a scary cow on the The Puy route with bloody scary horns and taking a short cut and falling in a manure patch and then accidentally touching an electrified fence etc. etc. etc. Oh and did I mention age...I could easily do this at 30 when I ran a few marathons...now at 62 could I even walk a half marathon? And the big one getting lost again and again on less traveled Camino routes...wandering around aimlessly and chewing up the km's?

Anyway that's the fun and challenge of walking Camino's...so many variables...nothing is predictable and the enjoyment of simply walking can't be beat. Looking forward to a new adventure on the Camino Primitive!

Guy

But at 62 years young you are a mere person in your youth. One of the pilgrims that I will never forget is an American woman who I met on my first Camino on the Camino Norte. During the Camino she had celebrated her 82nd birthday. And as a postscript, she was carrying all of her own gear for the full camino!!

Agreed it's very subjective using a rule like Naismith's and there are so many many variables however for high level planning only...why not? It's fun to plan and then see how far off on is!

So many variables...heat, fatigue, trail conditions (cobblestones, hot asphalt, tree roots after a rainstorm on a steep descent, beautiful forest path, bushwalking or something like it), lack of sleep due to snoring, great news from home, sad news from home, rain and more rain, brilliant sunshine and the company of a fellow pilgrim who becomes a new friend and time just flies, wind, injuries, meeting a massive cow blocking the trail in Switzerland, a scary cow on the The Puy route with bloody scary horns and taking a short cut and falling in a manure patch and then accidentally touching an electrified fence etc. etc. etc. Oh and did I mention age...I could easily do this at 30 when I ran a few marathons...now at 62 could I even walk a half marathon? And the big one getting lost again and again on less traveled Camino routes...wandering around aimlessly and chewing up the km's?

Anyway that's the fun and challenge of walking Camino's...so many variables...nothing is predictable and the enjoyment of simply walking can't be beat. Looking forward to a new adventure on the Camino Primitive!

Guy

 

[Ian Afloat]

Here are the ancient Asturias rules for how they decided on the Primitivo route back in ancient times: 1) Is there a hill? Go straight up it. 2) Is there an alternative possibility around the hill? See rule 1.

 

[lunna]

I've never walked the Primitivo, but I've just walked from Geneva to Le Puy and then the Stevenson to La Bastide Puylaurent, and then shifting over and down to Villefort. Lots and lots and lots of uphills followed by downhills immediately followed by uphill and so on, some pretty steep and even one or two a wee tetch dangerous, particularly from La Bastide to Villefort near Prevencheres in the rain. Am taking a two day rest break here but the 530 km or so I've walked so far has taken 24 days. Contrast that to my previous walks like the Via de la Plata, Le Puy to Spain, and Arles/Aragones which were much longer (800 to 1000 km) that I did in 30-33 days, and that tells me something. I did take a few shorter days (arriving at 3 pm or so), unlike my other walks (5pm or later often) but one has to take into account the 'smell the roses' factor as well.

 

[lunna]

I've never walked the Primitivo, but I've just walked from Geneva to Le Puy and then the Stevenson to La Bastide Puylaurent, and then shifting over and down to Villefort. Lots and lots and lots of uphills followed by downhills immediately followed by uphill and so on, some pretty steep and even one or two a wee tetch dangerous, particularly from La Bastide to Villefort near Prevencheres in the rain. Am taking a two day rest break here but the 530 km or so I've walked so far has taken 24 days. Contrast that to my previous walks like the Via de la Plata, Le Puy to Spain, and Arles/Aragones which were much longer (800 to 1000 km) that I did in 30-33 days, and that tells me something. I did take a few shorter days (arriving at 3 pm or so), unlike my other walks (5pm or later often) but one has to take into account the 'smell the roses' factor as well.