howlsthunder
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Francés (2018)
Camino Francés (2020)
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Wish I had known about the dirt track out of Molinaseca. Looks a lot better than the marked route!Examples:
This first one is a road descending the mountain that overlooks Ponferrada. Those trucks belonged to some foresters who were working in the woods:
View attachment 51195
This is the road paralleling the highway leaving Molinaseca. It connects on either end to the highway and is rarely far from the highway itself. It looked like in parts it provides access to orchards though most were quite overgrown (not that that matters):
View attachment 51196
And this was the 'power line trail' that I saw. It seemed to have markers (the white bit?)
View attachment 51197
I am pretty certain that we walked along this path. I was surprised that so many people stayed on the highway leaving Molinaseca. We often try to find alternative routes where available and if memory does not fail me this one actually had a yellow arrow at the very beginning. While we walked along, a tractor passed us who was mowing the overgrowth on one side of the path and we guessed it was because of maintenance for the benefit of camino pilgrims.This is the road paralleling the highway leaving Molinaseca. It connects on either end to the highway and is rarely far from the highway itself. It looked like in parts it provides access to orchards though most were quite overgrown (not that that matters):
View attachment 51196
Yes, if you see a warning including 'privado/a' is better not tresspasing just in case.Here are some posted signs that I have seen along my various routes that might help:
"Coto Privado" - Private preserve
"Terrenos Privado" - Private Land
"Bosque Privado" - Private forest
"Propiedad Privada" - Private Property
If I see signs like these, they are usually black letters on a white rectangular background either on a fence, post, or sometimes mounted to a tree.
Then there is the general purpose: "Peligro" = Danger... 'nuff said...
Here is one you need to know, especially in the autumn months...
"Cazadores de Peligros" = Danger Hunters
I have only seen this sign once. But I usually wear a neon colored hat, for just such an eventuality, even in the Spring...
Sometimes, you might see something looking like an international traffic sign, say a walking person with a red circle and a diagonal line through the walker, I simply avoid crossing that 'line.'
If anyone else can contribute some advisory signs that they have seen that are intended to prevent trespassing...no I do not mean no defectar...please do contribute them to this dialog.
Hope this helps.
I am pretty certain that we walked along this path. I was surprised that so many people stayed on the highway leaving Molinaseca. We often try to find alternative routes where available and if memory does not fail me this one actually had a yellow arrow at the very beginning. While we walked along, a tractor passed us who was mowing the overgrowth on one side of the path and we guessed it was because of maintenance for the benefit of camino pilgrims.
I can't answer your general question but have always assumed that trails and roads in Spain are public unless it's obvious that they are on private property or denial of access is clearly marked.
What about "powerline trails" in Spain? It has never occured to me (in Europe) that one could walk along high voltage powerlines, unless, obviously, they follow an already established road. Most of the latter have disappeared, I think, as they are now underground?
This has been my practice. I’ve never had a problem anywhere. The most surprising country was China. In the area that I lived If there was no fence and guard you just walked in. This included factories and construction sites. The only exception is in the United States. My country is a bit weird about private property. And in parts of Mexico and Central America where it’s necessary to find out about the areas where it’s just not prudent to walk.I am Spaniard I don't know precisely the law on that issue. I walk wherever I want if I don't see PROPIEDAD PRIVADA PROHIBIDO EL PASO or a gate that is not possible to open.
Yes, I remember this well. I also checked Google Earth and the Brierley guidebook just now. I think most people who just follow yellow arrows miss this or they are not bothered (their loss!). The guidebook says: "Molinaseca - from albergue [last one on the left side at the end of Molinaseca] continue down the main road (or just beyond the tennis court turn off right to track alongside fruit orchards parallel to the road) to top of a rise with Ponferrada visible ahead."The one outside of Molinaseca looked like this:
View attachment 51255
The Camino is the heavy blue line. Main paved roads are white. The dotted brown lines are dirt roads; the dirt tractor road in the photo above is the one in this map screenshot. It was easy to scroll ahead and see that it never stayed far from the Camino and eventually joined back up again, eating up quite a stretch of pavement!
Yes, I remember this well. I also checked Google Earth and the Brierley guidebook just now. I think most people who just follow yellow arrows miss this or they are not bothered (their loss!). The guidebook says: "Molinaseca - from albergue [last one on the left side at the end of Molinaseca] continue down the main road (or just beyond the tennis court turn off right to track alongside fruit orchards parallel to the road) to top of a rise with Ponferrada visible ahead."
We missed this turn off to the right at the tennis courts but we cut down to the track at the next possibility, see below (track in purple, our way in green). So you actually walked on the "right way" there. I have always assumed that trails that are marked as dotted brown lines as in this map are open to the public (on foot) in Spain unless there is a clear indication to the contrary.
I can't figure out where this was exactly but looking at maps and satellite images of the area, I still think that there are no power line trails in this part of the world as a rule although a high voltage powerline can follow an established road or trail for a while. It has also just occurred to me that what I used to think was a trail under the power lines in these satellite images are actually the wires! Stupid me!The Camino was the shoulder of the road for a ways before becoming a trail and the "power line" trail there would of been another side detour avoiding asphalt and hard rocks.
I can't figure out where this was exactly but looking at maps and satellite images of the area, I still think that there are no power line trails in this part of the world as a rule although a high voltage powerline can follow an established road or trail for a while. It has also just occurred to me that what I used to think was a trail under the power lines in these satellite images are actually the wires! Stupid me!
I don't recall seeing them (utility/power lines) too often.… and then descending from El Acebo to Ponferrada, just a bit outside El Acebo is where I took the above photo. Those pylons had a road that turned into a foot path or something with little white markers. The Camino was the shoulder of the road for a ways before becoming a trail and the "power line" trail there would of been another side detour avoiding asphalt and hard rocks.
I know it's a bit of an idle conversation topic but that's what intrigues me, too.But like I said, I don't really remember seeing any other trails like this other than in the mountains near El Acebo. Just wondered if any other part of the world (Spain in particular) has trails along their utility poles like we tend to in Alaska.
These are also my opinion and experience.I am Spaniard I don't know precisely the law on that issue. I walk wherever I want if I don't see PROPIEDAD PRIVADA PROHIBIDO EL PASO or a gate that is not possible to open.
This is not the case for EU countries as a rule. They don't use dangerous pesticides that could end up on one's hands and clothes to keep the corridors free of vegetation. Quite the contrary. By way of an example, I just read about a 5-year project (2011-2017) in Belgium and France where the electricity operators manage and restore large areas under medium and high-voltage overhead power lines to increase biodiversity and to restore a more varied vegetation. They dug ponds, planted orchards with now rare local fruit trees or European wild pear, European wild apple and common medlar under overhead power lines. They also created simple flower meadows and areas for pasture and other similar measures.In the US and indeed most countries, these powerline rights of way must be kept free of vegetation so as to not interfere with the commercial purpose of transmitting electrical power.
Oh, this is fun. I think I have identified the place and have tracked that particular powerline for a bit, see first screenshot below (powerline marked in orange, camino path marked in purple) plus another GE screenshot of the same powerline further along the road towards Ponferrada where you can see nothing that resembles a track following it.
The laws on right of access differ from one European country to the next but as far as general hiking is concerned in Continental Europe, I follow my gut feeling, which means the rules I'm used to: if it looks like a road or a path and there is no indication to the contrary, i.e. no sign or barrier and it's not obviously private property, then I use it. I would not do this in the UK, it seems to be different there and I'm very wary of it. I didn't know about the tradition in Scotland that you mentioned earlier. I believe the Nordic countries have rules that are similar to Scotland.
I've started to use Pocket Earth to check on trails. I'm wary of trails that end all of a sudden or peter out eventually.
Concerning use of powerline 'trails' as an adjunct to the Camino, short cuts, or pass throughs, I offer one observation...
In the US and indeed most countries, these powerline rights of way must be kept free of vegetation so as to not interfere with the commercial purpose of transmitting electrical power. Access for maintenance and instant repair must be maintained at all times.
As a consequence, the power utilities use seriously, heavy duty, commercial (not household grade) herbicides to kill off or control most vegetation under these lines. The 'best' of these highly carcinogenic chemicals are persistent in the soil, and on vegetation.
I am from Alaska where the question of "am I trespassing" is a very important one because private, state, federal, native/indian, and public lands are very much jumbled and you sometimes have to really do your homework to be sure you are not accidentally trespassing on property you shouldn't be on. (For example, there is a popular hiking trail that follows an abandoned railway bed along a river in my town. It's completely fine to walk along, but when arriving at "the end", to get back to the highway you are technically trespassing across a bit of tribal and then private land. Most people don't know this and that one should technically backtrack down the entire trail after walking it). In contrast, on my visit to the Scottish highlands I was surprised to find out that legally a person could walk or even camp out anywhere they like, so long as they are not damaging crops or disturbing livestock (I'm sure there must be finer details to this).
So I am wondering what the laws are in Spain? Beyond the obvious (NEVER walk in/across fields or pastures and definitely not where there are signs posted to keep out). In particular I'm interested in the following example:
On my Camino I'd notice (either visually or by noting on my Maps.me app) that there might be a road - usually dirt or gravel - that paralleled the Camino very closely. I only ever went on such a road twice; once just outside Molinaseca where the Camino is a paved sidewalk all the way to Ponferrada that I took in attempt to alleviate severe tendon pain that only flared up on pavement, and another one which was some sort of powerline/offroading "road" that swung over to the highest mountain point overlooking Ponferrada that I think may have also been marked in the Brierley map book - I took it to see the view. Another time while descending a mountain I saw that there was a lightly worn footpath that followed under the high voltage power line; at home people are generally fine using "powerline trails" unless they obviously cross someone's property, but though these seemed like it was the "middle of nowhere" I opted to avoid it just in case.
In all but the two noted situations I didn't feel the need to leave the Camino; the times that I would want to would be to avoid pavement but never to "shortcut" (in future Caminos I'm not predicting tendonitis will be as bad an issue as it was this time and if I find out what I did was wrong, I'll definitely not do it again). But I'm curious as to what the laws are anyway? Again, I'm talking about ROADS, dirt or gravel, that parallel the Camino, usually within a dozen feet or so, that have no gates or signage of any kind, and trails beneath power/utility lines in addition.
Funny that you mention this. At various places at the beginning of the Camino Frances, I stopped and looked around and thought: Why are we walking here? This doesn't feel "normal", it doesn't feel like a trail created by people walking from one place to the next because they needed to get there or needed stuff to carry there. I understand of course that there are a number of reasons why we are made to walk on these artificially - and not very artfully - created trail sections.The pathways people make for themselves are interesting to me. I have a graphic design degree but had a class where we learned about human design for public spaces. [...] And I noticed this in quite a few areas on the Camino where the path was "forced" for some reason versus where it had clearly just been a path it's entire existence.
A landscape architect lived across from a park that had paths at right angles. In the winter, he noticed the paths people made in the snow for themselves; they did not follow the paths under the snow. So he re-designed the park to use the organic (and more direct) paths people chose for themselves.
Here is one you need to know, especially in the autumn months...
"Cazadores de Peligros" = Danger Hunters
I have only seen this sign once. But I usually wear a neon colored hat, for just such an eventuality, even in the Spring...
Hope this helps.
I'll make it simple... Walk where you please, so long as its not someone's back garden nobody is going to care, all tracks and trails you can walk along, whether its a eucalyptus cut or some farmers track. Just like the Spanish hunters who will go anywhere they like. Check out my current thread for any proof you need, hopefully this will put an end to the question. And I dare anybody to bring up the subject of camping again.
And for comparison and on the same scale, a Strava heatmap for Spain and for parts of Alaska. The bright spots and lines mark places where many people walk (they don't mark street lights). You can even spot one or two caminos.
View attachment 51425
Your comment on 'organic paths' triggered a memory of something vaguely related (sorry if I venture a bit off topic). Apparently organic paths designed by a slime mold rival the efficiency of us humans, and the slime mold not only designs a lot quicker, their networks are also more adaptable. After reading the linked article I had mental pictures of the map of Spain with oat flakes where the cities and villages would be.
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