A Question for our Spanish Brethren

scruffy1 · Jul 28, 2015

"The Miracles of Saint James" by Thomas E. Coffey, Linda K. Davidson (!!!), and Maryjane Dunn 1966

'The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is recovering importance. Some people walk for the exercise, others for religious reasons, others for curiosity, others out of boredom, others to study medieval art and architecture, others to fulfill a vow, and still others to fulfill a penal sentence. For what ever reason, they are walking to a holy shrine, and thus making a pilgrimage.' p. XI

These words written 50 years ago (OMG) are intriguing. I know from my studies that felons throughout Catholic Europe were given the option of starving to death in local lockups, prisons, or dungeons - or - going on pilgrimage often to Santiago de Compostela.
Does the Spanish judicial system still recognize pilgrimage to SdC as an alternative to incarceration, fine, or public service?

mspath · Jul 28, 2015

For information re Belgian and French sponsored juvenile penitent rehabilitation programs on the camino read this earlier Forum thread.

scruffy1 · Jul 28, 2015

mspath said:
For information re Belgian and French sponsored juvenile penitent programs on the camino read this earlier Forum thread.

Very interesting thread! Thank you.

Icacos · Jul 28, 2015

In 2013, within two or three days of Santiago, we shared albergue space with someone who seemed to have been sent on the Camino as a sort of recovery. We overheard him (couldn't help it) speaking via Skype with his family back home, and we got the impression that he was in the process of working out some issues. He was travelling with someone who appeared to be in a guardianship role. We did not ask any questions, but it was an honour to share that little bit of the Camino with him.

SabsP · Jul 28, 2015

Kathar1na said:
In contrast to the middle ages, the Belgian Oikoten program mentioned earlier is not a program to fulfil a penal sentence. It is a rehabilitation program for minors aged 16-18 years to foster their reintegration into society and to assist them with becoming independent and be able to stand on their own feet. A few years ago, they started a trial project with adults who were put on parole for the walk to Santiago but it is not clear to me whether it is being continued.

There is an interesting TV report and a collection of 27 reports by participants (in Dutch).
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/videozone/archief/programmas/koppen/2.22676/1.1340261
http://www.alba.be/30jaaroikoten_boek.php

As a Belgian I know the project very well. And btw not only for kids who were on parole, but also those who were merely in a troublesome family situation .
Unfortunately our new government froze all subsidies for the Camino project. Seems they believe more in repression than in prevention.
Without going into a political discussion : I think it sucks! So it is discontinued. 25 years of brilliant expertise by this organisation is now wasted!
I can recommend this book :
http://www.lannoo.be/ik-dus-naar-compostela

annakappa · Jul 29, 2015

We have walked on two different occasions with a group of prisoners. On each case, they were about a group of 12, together with a couple of leaders. On one occasion, they also had a lovely golden Labrador as their Camino dog, who was looked after by a different person in the group each day. That particular year, the leader ( or person in charge) told us that there were 7 or 8 different groups walking the Camino in different stages, at that particular moment. That group was composed of all men, with whom we shared the dormitory. The other occasion, they were all youngish girls, probably between 20 and 35 and all Latinos, which is why we got talking to them. When we arrived at Santiago, days later, they were seated in the 'privileged inner circle' in the Cathedral and one of the girls read one of the lessons.
Personally, I think that this is a fantastic opportunity for a prisoner to be allowed this possibility, before returning to freedom!

Rebekah Scott · Jul 29, 2015

There is a work-release program in Formentera that takes a group of adult non-violent offenders along the Camino. It is run by a gifted ex-con who is also a priest, active in Acogida Christiana en el Camino (ACC).

jefferyonthecamino · Jul 29, 2015

scruffy1 said:
"The Miracles of Saint James" by Thomas E. Coffey, Linda K. Davidson (!!!), and Maryjane Dunn 1966

'The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is recovering importance. Some people walk for the exercise, others for religious reasons, others for curiosity, others out of boredom, others to study medieval art and architecture, others to fulfill a vow, and still others to fulfill a penal sentence. For what ever reason, they are walking to a holy shrine, and thus making a pilgrimage.' p. XI

These words written 50 years ago (OMG) are intriguing. I know from my studies that felons throughout Catholic Europe were given the option of starving to death in local lockups, prisons, or dungeons - or - going on pilgrimage often to Santiago de Compostela.
Does the Spanish judicial system still recognize pilgrimage to SdC as an alternative to incarceration, fine, or public service?

not the pilgrimage per se but any activity that is considered helpful in the prisoner's reintegration into society. the majority of these programmes have involved escorts (not armed), and people serving short term sentences for minor crimes. so, i guess not, nothing like what may have taken place 500-800 years ago, but then again, prisoners no longer starve to death in prison.

annakappa · Jul 29, 2015

jefferyonthecamino said:
not the pilgrimage per se but any activity that is considered helpful in the prisoner's reintegration into society. the majority of these programmes have involved escorts (not armed), and people serving short term sentences for minor crimes. so, i guess not, nothing like what may have taken place 500-800 years ago, but then again, prisoners no longer starve to death in prison.

Why would someone be armed? Heaven forbid that someone walking the Camino, in whatever capacity should be armed!!!

jefferyonthecamino · Aug 1, 2015

annakappa said:
Why would someone be armed? Heaven forbid that someone walking the Camino, in whatever capacity should be armed!!!

because they are convicted criminals, although, and because their escorts are not armed, it appears that they do not represent a threat to society. if you were to simply read that prisoners are doing the Camino with escorts from the prison facility and/or social services, you may start wondering what that particular person's offence was.

Mark Lee · Aug 1, 2015

annakappa said:
Why would someone be armed? Heaven forbid that someone walking the Camino, in whatever capacity should be armed!!!

Heaven forbid!........were not the Knights Templar armed, and on the Camino?

annakappa · Aug 2, 2015

I think I had better not reply to the last two post,s, as I'm sure to open a bag of worms!
Peace!

Mark Lee · Aug 3, 2015

annakappa said:
I think I had better not reply to the last two post,s, as I'm sure to open a bag of worms!
Peace!

Too late, you already kicked open the ant's nest...ha ha.
Saw these two of Espana's finest on the Camino last summer. If I'm not mistaken those are pistola's on their duty belts.

annakappa · Aug 3, 2015

The picture comes out blurred!

Pabloke · Aug 3, 2015

scruffy1 said:
"The Miracles of Saint James" by Thomas E. Coffey, Linda K. Davidson (!!!), and Maryjane Dunn 1966

'The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is recovering importance. Some people walk for the exercise, others for religious reasons, others for curiosity, others out of boredom, others to study medieval art and architecture, others to fulfill a vow, and still others to fulfill a penal sentence. For what ever reason, they are walking to a holy shrine, and thus making a pilgrimage.' p. XI

These words written 50 years ago (OMG) are intriguing. I know from my studies that felons throughout Catholic Europe were given the option of starving to death in local lockups, prisons, or dungeons - or - going on pilgrimage often to Santiago de Compostela.
Does the Spanish judicial system still recognize pilgrimage to SdC as an alternative to incarceration, fine, or public service?

Nope.

Spanish jurisdiction doesn't recognize it.

The system provides three degrees of imprisonment. In the first the convicts are under a high level of control. The second is the ordinary regimen; and the third degree allows them to leave the prison for the daytime in different levels depending on several factors.

Doing the Camino means sleeping out of the jail so the Penitentiary Authority may allow a pilgrimage as a special activity but it doesn't reduce the sentence. Though it posibly counts positively in order to get the probation.

Mark Lee · Aug 3, 2015

Pabloke said:
Nope.

Spanish jurisdiction doesn't recognize it.

The system provides three degrees of imprisonment. In the first the convicts are under a high level of control. The second is the ordinary regimen; and the third degree allows them to leave the prison for the daytime in different levels depending on several factors.

Doing the Camino means sleeping out of the jail so the Penitentiary Authority may allow a pilgrimage as a special activity but it doesn't reduce the sentence. Though it posibly counts positively in order to get the probation.

I don't see how walking the Camino could ever be substituted for incarceration, fines, community service, etc. in modern times. That could only occur if Spain had no separation of church and state. The Camino was, and is at its roots a Catholic pilgrimage. What if the offender was not a Catholic, or practiced no religion at all? The option of walking the Camino would be in a sense, forcing a religious practice upon them.

SabsP · Aug 3, 2015

Mark Lee said:
I don't see how walking the Camino could ever be substituted for incarceration, fines, community service, etc. in modern times. That could only occur if Spain had no separation of church and state. The Camino was, and is at its roots a Catholic pilgrimage. What if the offender was not a Catholic, or practiced no religion at all? The option of walking the Camino would be in a sense, forcing a religious practice upon them.

.
Euh? Don't get this one... Lots of people nowadays on the Camino walk as a non Catholic. And or walk for spiritual or sportive reasons.
And regarding the Belgian project of Oikoten : from the beginnning it was clear this was a non religious affair. But yes of course every " juvenile delinquent " was free to fill it in for him /herself.

Mark Lee · Aug 3, 2015

SabineP said:
.
Euh? Don't get this one... Lots of people nowadays on the Camino walk as a non Catholic. And or walk for spiritual or sportive reasons.
And regarding the Belgian project of Oikoten : from the beginnning it was clear this was a non religious affair. But yes of course every " juvenile delinquent " was free to fill it in for him /herself.

Yes, obviously thousands a year who are not Catholic walk it and not for religious reasons, but it's still in its roots a Catholic pilgrimage and they are not being made to walk it by the government. For a government to use it officially for in a sense, punishment or rehabilitation would be forcing a religious practice. No different if an Islamic State like Afghanistan or Pakistan used the pilgrimage to Mecca in the same way.

SabsP · Aug 3, 2015

Mark Lee said:
Yes, obviously thousands a year who are not Catholic walk it and not for religious reasons, but it's still in its roots a Catholic pilgrimage and they are not being made to walk it by the government. For a government to use it officially for in a sense, punishment or rehabilitation would be forcing a religious practice. No different if an Islamic State like Afghanistan or Pakistan used the pilgrimage to Mecca in the same way.

I beg to differ. And we in this country take the separation of church and state very seriously.
But will not reply anymore. Don't want get into a political/religous debate and I certainly don't want to see this thread closed.

SabsP · Aug 3, 2015

Thank you Kathar1na...this dates though from 2010 seeing this particular project stopped.

Urban Trekker · Aug 3, 2015

Here in the States we had a at rick youth program called Outward Bound. It took at risk youths into the wilderness where they learned life skill, team work, and self reliance. To the best of my knowledge is was very successful. Unfortunately it went commercial, for profit, and the wealthy sent their kids there in the summers for high adventure glamping. Buen Camino

mspath · Aug 3, 2015

Most of the modern camino boom began with the scholarly historical research and extraordinary efforts undertaken by Don Elias Valina Sampedro who was priest at O Cebreiro in the latter 20th century. Read more about him in this link. It was he who painted the first yellow arrows which mark the modern route; he is buried in the O Cebreiro church and many churchyard inscriptions honor him and his work.

annakappa · Aug 3, 2015

jefferyonthecamino said:
because they are convicted criminals, although, and because their escorts are not armed, it appears that they do not represent a threat to society. if you were to simply read that prisoners are doing the Camino with escorts from the prison facility and/or social services, you may start wondering what that particular person's offence was.

My guess is that as far as the group of S. American lady prisoners, they were probably drug mules.

Pabloke · Aug 3, 2015

http://www.institucionpenitenciaria.es/web/portal/idioma/en/Noticias/Noticias/noticia_0008.html

There was (I haven't found news after 2010) a programme called Caminos de Libertad. It was developed by the Spanish government.

Several prisoners walk some stages accompanied by volunteers, prison officers and some judges.

The purpose of this programme was strengthening some aspects in order to help the assimilation into society.

jefferyonthecamino · Aug 4, 2015

Pabloke said:
http://www.institucionpenitenciaria.es/web/portal/idioma/en/Noticias/Noticias/noticia_0008.html

There was (I haven't found news after 2010) a programme called Caminos de Libertad. It was developed by the Spanish government.

Several prisoners walk some stages accompanied by volunteers, prison officers and some judges.

The purpose of this programme was strengthening some aspects in order to help the assimilation into society.

Interesting, however it does not appear to be an alternative to incarceration, fine, or public service

jefferyonthecamino · Aug 4, 2015

annakappa said:
My guess is that as far as the group of S. American lady prisoners, they were probably drug mules.

Probably. And unlikely that their convictions were shortened by walking the Camino (i may be wrong).

scruffy1 · Aug 4, 2015

Kathar1na said:
I hesitate to ask this but do these words really refer to 1966? In Gitlitz and Davidson, "Cultural Handbook", they write: "When we first trekked to Compostela in 1974, we did not meet even one other pilgrim on the Road. In 1979 the only pilgrim we encountered was an elderly Frenchman who was fulfilling a vow made in the Second World War. To most people in the 1970s the pilgrimage Road was hardly more than a vague memory of historical relic: "You know, in medieval times ...". See also Peter Robbins who refers to "the 23 claiming a compostela in 1977 and the 13 in 1978" (http://pilgrim.peterrobins.co.uk/santiago/achanging.html). The modern boom and its infrastructure started only in the 80s, didn't it?

The source I quoted is co-authored by Linda Davidson - the same from my favorite book which you mention. I trust her and her husband - what a couple!

annakappa · Aug 4, 2015

jefferyonthecamino said:
Probably. And unlikely that their convictions were shortened by walking the Camino (i may be wrong).

If I remember well, they were, however, nearing the end of their convictions.

Mark Lee · Aug 4, 2015

Kathar1na said:
And it seems it isn't. I would really like to know precisely what the status of the people are who have been mentioned in the context of this thread but I am not holding my breath. I understand Pabloke's contribution to mean that no, there are no Spanish prisoners walking the Camino.

In the case of the Belgian project, the walkers are definitely not prisoners, whether minor or adult. Interestingly enough, since the word "escort" has already partly derailed this thread, in the case of the Belgian project, the "escorts" are neither employed by a "Government", i.e. by a local, regional or national administration entity, nor by an organisation with an educational aim. In fact, they are volunteers who want to walk themselves and they are generally involved in the project only once.

Sometimes I wonder whether there is not too much medieval imagination at work here ;-). The knights are long gone, and the caminos are secular walks that, luckily, nobody but really nobody is forced to walk these days.

Here are some details on the requirements for "companions" or "walking buddies" (in Dutch): http://www.cultuurnet.be/nl/vacaturebank/tochtbegeleider-mv-oikoten

ain't nuthin wrong with "getting medieval" from time to time....
good for the body. good for the soul. ha ha

MichaelSG · Aug 11, 2015

Kathar1na said:
But was is written in 1966 or in 1996?

It must be in 1996. Maryjane Dunn could not have been in third grade yet in 1966 (based on her Facebook photo). That said, 1966 was a great year - the Orioles won their first World Series!

camino07 · Aug 12, 2015

In 2012 on the VDLP there was a young man(16yrs) walking with a "social worker". Heard he was from a suburb of Paris.Don't know any details but they became part of a Camino family all the way to Finisterre. He was polite and quiet and enjoyed looking at Ipads.
At the time we thought it was a great idea.

mspath · Aug 12, 2015

camino07 said:
In 2012 on the VDLP there was a young man(16yrs) walking with a "social worker". Heard he was from a suburb of Paris.Don't know any details but they became part of a Camino family all the way to Finisterre. He was polite and quiet and enjoyed looking at Ipads.
At the time we thought it was a great idea.

Perhaps this joint effort was sponsored by the French association Seuil.

JillGat · Aug 12, 2015

If I ever get caught breaking the law, I hope I get this sentence. Do they pay your way?

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