Albergue Burgos March 22 2016

BrienC · Mar 29, 2016

JillGat said:
Well, that's not how the term is generally used. But, if you prefer, evidence-based data as opposed to anecdote, which is what you are providing. I have traveled and lived in third world countries for many years too, and have not been bitten by bed bugs. And I *didn't* use essential oils *or* pesticides. Doesn't prove anything but luck. We could, however look at Dengue and Malaria rates in places where DEET and other repellents are not available. Or - if you want to go there - deaths from cholera, measles, gastroenteritis and a multitude of other diseases where there is little access to antibiotics and/or vaccines. Until these "manmade" "chemical" measures were developed, about a third of children died before their third year of life. Natural = better is a ridiculous notion. Arsenic, lead, poison oak and rattlesnake venom are natural. I was an epidemiologist and worked as a clinical researcher for many years. There are safeguards to be sure that many studies are not biased by corporate profit motive. It's not hard to find them.

All that being said, even permethrin don't prove to be that effective against bedbugs in clinical trials. In many areas (I don't know about Spain), they have developed resistance to most repellents. Which brings us back to the importance of inspecting any bed and surroundings before you lie down.

Clinical studies usually have to disclose any conflict of interest. Here is one of a number of studies I found on essential oils and bedbugs: file:///C:/Users/PC/Downloads/insects-05-00849.pdf (if you can't open that, do a search on "Efficacy of an Essential Oil-Based Pesticide for Controlling Bed Bug (Cimex lectularius) Infestations in Apartment Buildings")

We obviously come from different backgrounds and have different sensibilities and perspectives. You say you were an epidemiologist; I was an engineer that worked in renewable energy. I grow up on the north coast of California in the 60s, in a time of much debate--about a good many things. I remember (though certainly not in great detail) the debate about DDT and how it was linked to the demise of the California Condor. DDT was outlawed. There is still, I suppose, an argument that DDT is a good thing because it kills all matter of pests, including those pesky mosquitos (little bastards). But at what cost. And who gained at the peril of the condor (and fought to save their gravy train as long as they could). Indeed, humans may have been, may be safer, from mosquitos in a world that uses DDT. But, again, at what cost. And, what eventual cost to human life. Many consider humans top of the heap. But when everything else has died away there is no heap and we come tumbling down, much like the condor.
On another recent thread on much this same subject, a gentleman that said he was retired from the pharma business, substantiated much of my perspective that people are "gullible" and big money is spent to profit from that notion. Just say'n.
I think I'll start a new thread called "The Sky is Blue" and see how much contention that derives. Of course, the sky is blue, many will say. And many others will say, "not at night" or, "not if it's cloudy." Of course, these are true, but it doesn't detract from the initial statement that the sky is blue.
I stand behind my intent in these "bug" topics (and will continue to use natural and toxic-free formulas): There are options and people are free to perform their own due diligence, filter as they see fit, and approach preparation for their travels accordingly.

Cheers,

JillGat · Mar 29, 2016

Viranani said:
Back to the OP...so just an update: I was there at the Burgos municipal 3 nights ago and encountered no bedbugs and heard no complaints about any.
The only disturbance I had was a drunk peregrina who woke me up saying I was in her bunk (I wasn't). Next time I'll find the paroquial near the Cathedral. I tried again this time but got tired of walking in circles...

And don't expect essential oils to work as a repellent for drunk peregrinas. They love that sh*%.

JillGat · Mar 29, 2016

BrienC said:
We obviously come from different backgrounds and have different sensibilities and perspectives. You say you were an epidemiologist; I was an engineer that worked in renewable energy. I grow up on the north coast of California in the 60s, in a time of much debate--about a good many things. I remember (though certainly not in great detail) the debate about DDT and how it was linked to the demise of the California Condor.

LOL, I grew up in Santa Cruz, on the north coast of California and was active in the movement to ban DDT as well as toxic pesticides that were being used on crops in central California and causing health problems for farmworkers.

and re: your statement: [[On another recent thread on much this same subject, a gentleman that said he was retired from the pharma business, substantiated much of my perspective that people are "gullible" and big money is spent to profit from that notion. Just say'n.]]

You don't think the "natural herbal remedies" marketers aren't profiting handsomely from gullible people? There's been a lot written on this. Meanwhile, they don't have to do any studies at all to prove efficacy - or safety - for their products. As an epidemiologist, I was involved in several investigations of poisonings caused by "natural" medicines and supplements. One "natural" body lotion contained lead, an herbal shampoo contained arsenic (arsenic and lead are also "natural"). There were herbal supplements that caused liver damage or interacted dangerously with safe medications (since they hadn't been subjected to clinical trials, the customers were basically the guinea pigs). But what is most dangerous is that the natural herbal medicines industry promotes useless medications to gullible (or desperate) people suffering from conditions like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, bacterial ear infections in children, etc. when there are medications that have been tested for safety and efficacy and can work for these conditions. (Not to exonerate big pharma from jacking up the prices and controlling access to lifesaving meds. I could write a book on that, too.)

Anyway spraying your sleeping bag with pyrethin - a synthetic version of the toxic pesticides found naturally in chrysanthemum flowers - is not likely to cause longterm environmental harm.

However, as I said before, this may be something of a moot point, as bedbugs may not be that susceptible to pyrethrin, either. I can only hope it will repel them a little more than essential oils, and the bed bugs will move over to your bed. Kidding! Buen Camino.

zzotte · Mar 29, 2016

Thank goodness to California I lived in the bay area for many years, I did not realized how great it was until I moved to the east coast chemicals banned in California 10 years ago here they drink it

zzotte

C clearly · Mar 29, 2016

BrienC said:
We obviously come from different backgrounds and have different sensibilities and perspectives. You say you were an epidemiologist; I was an engineer that worked in renewable energy. I grow up on the north coast of California in the 60s, in a time of much debate--about a good many things. I remember (though certainly not in great detail) the debate about DDT and how it was linked to the demise of the California Condor. DDT was outlawed. There is still, I suppose, an argument that DDT is a good thing because it kills all matter of pests, including those pesky mosquitos (little bastards). But at what cost. And who gained at the peril of the condor (and fought to save their gravy train as long as they could). Indeed, humans may have been, may be safer, from mosquitos in a world that uses DDT. But, again, at what cost. And, what eventual cost to human life. Many consider humans top of the heap. But when everything else has died away there is no heap and we come tumbling down, much like the condor.
On another recent thread on much this same subject, a gentleman that said he was retired from the pharma business, substantiated much of my perspective that people are "gullible" and big money is spent to profit from that notion. Just say'n.
I think I'll start a new thread called "The Sky is Blue" and see how much contention that derives. Of course, the sky is blue, many will say. And many others will say, "not at night" or, "not if it's cloudy." Of course, these are true, but it doesn't detract from the initial statement that the sky is blue.
I stand behind my intent in these "bug" topics (and will continue to use natural and toxic-free formulas): There are options and people are free to perform their own due diligence, filter as they see fit, and approach preparation for their travels accordingly.
Cheers,

You make some very valid points about the hazards of pesticides. I very much respect the wish to reduce their usage. For these reasons, I have backed off on using them on my Camino. I have no objection to your use of essential oils, on the chance that they might work. However, I do object to the statement (direct or implied) that they DO work. We simply don't know.

BrienC · Mar 29, 2016

C clearly said:
We simply don't know.

Quite right, C. Much to our chagrin, these topics are seldom quite black and white. All we have to go by is our own good sense, assuming we trust it.

Cheers,

BrienC · Mar 29, 2016

JillGat said:
LOL, I grew up in Santa Cruz, on the north coast of California

Interesting! And, I applaud your efforts in the banning of DDT. Well done!
I grew up in a small town on the Mendocino coast and much of my bent was formed by the kids I grew up with that were raised in the counter-culture (hippies, in the vernacular). My favorite book is still, Ecotopia.
Too, I really appreciate your sense of good humor. Seems everyone (not just on this forum) gets all bent over the slightest thing, contrary or not (hence, my "the sky is blue" analog).

All the best in your slumber, wherever it may be on this great blue marble,

Anniesantiago · Mar 30, 2016

Speaking of California Condors (and changing the topic a bit), when I was 15 (about 1967) I was driving home from Pismo Beach to Nipomo in my great-grandmother's 1955 Buick. The car was like a tank. It was just dark, and I had just barely turned on the lights. (I had my driver's license already b/c my father was in Vietnam and my mother didn't drive. I'm not sure how it happened, but I was issued a license at 15).

I came around a corner, and there, in the middle of that 1 lane country road was the biggest and ugliest bird I've ever seen in my life, eating a rabbit.
I slammed on my brakes and flashed my lights at it. It looked up, then went back to the rabbit. I moved closer and closer until I was almost touching it with the car. It kept eating. I tapped the horn. It kept eating. Every now and then it would look up at me. I was starting to get a little scared. Felt like I'd been dropped off in some prehistoric time warp!

Finally, I laid on the horn, and the thing WHOOSH WHOOSH WHOOSED! up and over my car.
I watched it fly away with my mouth open.

I drove home slow... wondering "What the hell?"

I told my grandmother and great-grandmother when I got home.
They laughed at me.
Asked if I'd been smoking whacky baccy!

Years later, I went to a zoo and there I saw the bird I had seen in the wild.
A California Condor.

All I could think was, "Sweet!"

I felt very lucky.

domigee · Mar 30, 2016

Anniesantiago said:
I came around a corner, and there, in the middle of that 1 lane country road was the biggest and ugliest bird I've ever seen in my life, eating a rabbit.

I just googled it....WOW!

BrienC · Mar 30, 2016

Anniesantiago said:
All I could think was, "Sweet!"

Great story! Thanks Anniesantiago for sharing. Closest I've ever come to one was a juvenile Andean condor in Chile several years ago. Flew off a rock just above us.

JillGat · Mar 31, 2016

BrienC said:
much of my bent was formed by the kids I grew up with that were raised in the counter-culture (hippies, in the vernacular).

Which probably means I'm as old as your mother and you should listen to me!

BrienC · Mar 31, 2016

JillGat said:
Which probably means I'm as old as your mother and you should listen to me!

She might see it differently than that;-)

Cheers,

Bumpa · Apr 1, 2016

I am starting the Camino Frances on the 12th of April. I have just read this entire thread and now I'm depressed.

I have Permethrin spray and will spray a sheet to lay over the bed before I use it, as well as the outside of my sleeping bag. I have an "air line porter bag" to transport my pack on the plane. I'll spray it as well and put my pack into it each night. I will be diligent in checking the sleeping area. I am itchy as I type this

I do think that we must be aware that if we go on "bed bug alert" websites for major hotels, we will find occurrences. This is not limited to the camino.

Kanga · Apr 2, 2016

@Bumpa on 9 caminos, all over 500km, I have only ever seen bedbugs three times, and two of those were in France, in hotels, and not in Spain. So don't worry. You have taken reasonable precautions, and they are not such a drama if you do happen to be the unlucky person who meets one anyway.

I remember when "nits" were a term of horror - something we never had to deal with as children. Now they seem to be a fact of life in every school and we take 'em for granted, and deal with them.

Fearless0 · Apr 2, 2016

I have a question: if you should find bb's after you've checked in and paid and then want to leave and find a different alburgue...how awkward is that with the staff? Do you ask for your money back or just forfeit it and move on?

Dutch · Apr 2, 2016

If you find bb, would you stay even if it was awkward for the staff?

If that is the reason for leaving, i kinda would think they must give back the money. For any other reason its your loss.

If they dont give it, just let 'm have the 8-10 euro and their bb and just go. Its not €100 is it. You'll survive without it, im sure.

Multipurpose · Apr 3, 2016

Just wanted to say that I am thinking about doing the El Camino and the possibility of bedbugs would not deter me.

I do a lot of hiking here in Northern California and routinely spray my hiking pants with Sawyer Permethrin spray which is readily available at REI.

I do it for ticks that might carry Lyme disease, not for bedbugs, which luckily are not prevalent on hiking trails.

Here is what I do. I hang up my pants outside and spray them down until they are wet and then let them dry overnight before putting them on. I have not suffered any ill effects from the dried spray, but I would advise not to breath the spray mist and I don't think it would be a good idea to spray inside a building without adequate ventilation. I usually respray after 3-4 washings.

One time I had ants in my house and I had no ant spray so I used my permethrin spray on them. It killed them on contact. This was a bad idea as it caused my wife's cat to get sick and almost die. Apparently cats are especially sensitive to the spray, so be careful using it around them.

Since I began spraying my pants for ticks I haven't had any get on me while other people around me get them. I plan on spraying my backpack, clothes and bedding before I do the El Camino and not worrying about the bedbugs.

freescot · Apr 10, 2016

LastPilgrim said:
I am trying to act as both of you have advised. Still am on lookout for permythrin or similar substance, but cannot find one after cheching several pharmacies and an outdoors shop "Base" - the best they have is a usual anti mosquito spray...

In Spain the Veterinarios also do pest control. I have had vets in to treat my woodworm, presumably putting them down humanely. They were very helpful on the Camino del Norte with bed bugs, have experience of eradicating them and I, like you, found pharmacies clueless.

Kanga · Apr 10, 2016

@Multipurpose your post is helpful. According to my reading, bedbugs have more in common with ticks than most other mammal biting insects.

LesBrass · Apr 10, 2016

Multipurpose said:
I do it for ticks that might carry Lyme disease, not for bedbugs, which luckily are not prevalent on hiking trails.

This is a really good point (sorry if I'm duplicating) but Lyme's disease is unpleasant and can take a very long time to recover from. We do see frequent posts about bed bugs but ticks are also something we should be looking out for.

Helen from Montreal · May 23, 2016

Anemone del Camino said:
How do you know you were bitten last night? It's my understanding that it can take a few days for the bites to appear. Am I mistaken? I know mine appeared while waiting for my flight at the airport amd more popped up after I got home. I was so concerned I had brought them home!

This is correct. I get a terrible reaction to bedbugs and fleas and it usually takes 48 hours for the telltale bumps to appear.

Anniesantiago · May 23, 2016

If I find bedbugs I most definitely tell the hosts and ask for my money back. Nobody has ever refused and I have found bedbugs on the Camino several times. At St. Javier 3 times, at the parochial in Hornillos twice, at Villafranca del Bierzo once, at Torres del Rio, in the municipal at Pedrouzo and in Santiago.

Each time I found them, by the way, using the method I describe in my blog.

Helen from Montreal · May 23, 2016

Anniesantiago said:
If I find bedbugs I most definitely tell the hosts and ask for my money back. Nobody has ever refused and I have found bedbugs on the Camino several times. At St. Javier 3 times, at the parochial in Hornillos twice, at Villafranca del Bierzo once, at Torres del Rio, in the municipal at Pedrouzo and in Santiago.

Each time I found them, by the way, using the method I describe in my blog.

Annie,
Thanks, I have read about this on your blog and bookmarked it, just in case.

Joanne - Falmouth · Jun 15, 2016

Hi I am wondering if silk liners can be treated with Permethrin or is it harmful to skin? Also, are the bed blankets infected to such an extent that one needs to take more than a silk liner?

C clearly · Jun 15, 2016

Joanne - Falmouth said:
Hi I am wondering if silk liners can be treated with Permethrin or is it harmful to skin? Also, are the bed blankets infected to such an extent that one needs to take more than a silk liner?

Permethrin is considered to be safe for skin contact once it is dry. It kills bedbugs on contact and after prolonged exposure, but it may not be terribly effective as a repellent. However, many people spray their sleeping bags and packs, and don't get bitten. Others use it and do get bitten. There is no easy solution! If there are bedbugs in the room and you are attractive to them (some people seem more so than others), they will bite you on exposed skin. They don't bite through fabric, so your silk liner and sleeping bag provide some protection but leave your face and hands exposed. I often use a repellent with DEET on my face and hands. You might want to wash it off in the morning.

You will only have a reaction if you are allergic to bedbug bites; many people have no reaction at all and don't know they have been bitten.

There's lots of information and also lots of misinformation here on the forum. The most important thing to know (perhaps the only fact that nobody argues about) is that heat (say, 50 C, for 30 minutes) kills bedbugs at all life stages. Here is a good guide to de-bed-bugging your gear when you get home.

Deleted member 3000 · Jun 15, 2016

Joanne - Falmouth said:
Hi I am wondering if silk liners can be treated with Permethrin or is it harmful to skin? Also, are the bed blankets infected to such an extent that one needs to take more than a silk liner?

Silk will be fine, but you might want to test the permethrin application on a corner of the silk sleep sack to see what it does to the color. Permethrin comes in a dilute solution which may contain other chemicals that will affect dyes.

Blankets are not infected per se. Bed bugs live in walls, crevices, and bed components like the frame and mattress. Blankets are more likely to be simply filthy than they are infested. I don't think they get cleaned regularly, so hundreds, even thousands, of pilgrims may have used them before you. The same goes for most motel and hotel blankets and counterpanes, so it may not be worth getting worked up over albergue cleanliness!!

Avoid skin contact with liquid permethrin. Once it is dry, it has been determined to be safe. I suggest using rubber gloves while treating your equipment. It is harmful to pets and fish, so outdoors is the best place for spraying, soaking, and/or drying permethrin treated equipment.

Gruffalo Jim · Mar 23, 2017

Dutch said:
The nicest way to get rid of bedbugs is to have a sauna with them. I did last year in Astorga when i suspected i may have had bedbugs in my stuff after i found out i slept in a room with bedbugs the night before.

Walked into hotel spa ciudad de astorga, booked a room and a spa session, dumped all my stuff in the sauna (including me), had a swim, a steambath and a bubble bath and after all my stuff had been in the hot 85-90 degree sauna for 45 minutes, i was happy again. No way any critter would have survided that. Heck, i almost even melted!

Oh yes, i was a little scared for my EE quilt, but he survided the torture of the hot sauna with flying colours.

Still would never tumble dry it with heat. Just with cold air and 4 tennis balls )

I love this advice, but will leave my kit in the sauna as i steam!

Kanga · Mar 23, 2017

There is no need to wash the down quilt - and it is when it is wet that down becomes damaged. So put the dry quilt in a hot tumble dryer. Mine was fine. But it does need to be a large commercial dryer. Domestic ones are too small.

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