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A thread now closed went from bad to worse with no hope for better. Will try to slip this in the back door, Hemingway wrote a marvelous nonfiction account entitled "Death in the Afternoon" exploring all things connected to the bullfight in a most enlightening fashion. An absolute must read in order to understand many things Spanish. The bull is so common in Ancient Mediterranean culture, mythology, and cult, the animal's appearance and continuation in Spain should come as no surprise, a quick list: the Minoan Crete people were great seafarers and certainly knew of Hispania offered the bull leap fresco the bull rhyton as well as the Minotaur; the Greeks were also in Spain so do remember Europa and the bull; Roman sculptures of sacrificial animals always included the bull; much later we find Goya and Tauromachia; and do not forget the Osborne Bull advertising statue all over Spain today. Bulls are Spain is interlocked with that animal for good and for bad.
I'm happier without the bull discussions but I'm also happy just to skip over all the bull (discussions) and let others have a chat. As I noted in the other thread though, it usually does follow a pretty common trail to eventual lockdown. I'm curious though, when did that other thread get personal? Did I miss some posts that were deleted?As long as people stick to the topic and do not attack each other personally the topic is a valid one for discussion.
Read "Death in the Afternoon"!Some years ago I came across a text which stated that the one thing that many times is overseen about bulls in Spain, is that there used to be wild bulls roaming around.
A fierce and wild bull was probably the most life threatening animal around and thus became synonymous with power, danger and uncontrollable.
This, according to the text, resulted in bull fighting and the human need to control and master its surroundings.
Whether this is true or not, it makes good sense to me, that it could be a beginning and explain how the tradition developed.
I do not think any foreigners are in a position to judge Spanish culture, including bull importance. I was the one starting the now locked thread; I did not start it to provoke, I just found it curious. And as someone said: bulls have an ancient meaning in the Mediterranian countries, and we are not to judge. We are just guests in the land.
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But I can also agree: Maybe I was off-topic when posting the start of that locked thread; if so, I apologize, and I agree that we should concentrate on the Camino. I just found it strange. But; when in Rome, do as the Romans (or at least respect them). And discuss with respect and calmness.
Myself, I come from a country that has been hunting whales, seals, polar bears etc. for centuries; it is in our culture and part of our survival as a (then) very poor country.
Many people today do not understand or know how they get their food on their plates.
I think, usually, the only person that can ever understand ANY culture is an outsider who grows a deep and serious respect for the culture they are in. One can never be removed enough from one's own culture to understand it. And outsiders who reject it or never get to know it well, don't know enough to criticize.I do not think any foreigners are in a position to judge Spanish culture.
If bullfighting and other similar practices bothered me that much I would probably not visit Spain and spend my money there, and/or I would openly protest or otherwise show my disapproval of it. Like the old saying goes, "talk is cheap", and it really is.
Most of the travel and tourism websites, books, etc seem to include bullfights and the running with the bulls as something to see and do in Spain and apparently thousands of people travel there every year and include it in their itinerary. Obviously it ain't going away.
Why is there an interest in it? Quien Sabe? People are people.
I will say this (and this is ALL I'll say on the debate). I would go see one before I had super definite opinions about it.Obviously there are many different opinions on the subject. I've never witnessed a bullfight in person, but I would definitely go see one given the opportunity.
I will say this (and this is ALL I'll say on the debate). I would go see one before I had super definite opinions about it.
I'm far from a big supporter of bullfighting. And seeing one (twice) brought out simultaneous respect and disgust. But I do think its the kind of thing you need to see to form definite opinions about.
A good starting point - when attempting to dissect a subject starting at the origin is often best. Your statement about the wild bulls is spot on - having descended from the mega forna they were often 2.5 metres at the shoulder and were an animal not to be trifled with, hence the folk-lore that a man who survived an attack by these bulls was a man to be admired. Not sure about how the past now fits in with the current situation.Some years ago I came across a text which stated that the one thing that many times is overseen about bulls in Spain, is that there used to be wild bulls roaming around.
A fierce and wild bull was probably the most life threatening animal around and thus became synonymous with power, danger and uncontrollable.
This, according to the text, resulted in bull fighting and the human need to control and master its surroundings.
Whether this is true or not, it makes good sense to me, that it could be a beginning and explain how the tradition developed.
I don't think too many Spaniards are interested in my gringo opinions on bullfighting or anything for that matter. My gringo owned euros? I'm sure they are definitely interested in those.
.....Anyway, what would the festival be without the bullfights? Without bullfights you have no bulls running and no bulls running equals less gringos flocking there every July to spend money on hotels, booze, food, souvenirs, trains, planes and automobiles etc. Less money spent there hurts the economy and the ability of a lot of working class people to put food on the table.
I'm not a Spaniard depending upon that activity every year to help feed my family. It's impossible for me to say it's good or bad when my ability to make a living doesn't depend on it.
No, certainly was not meant to be a cynical opinion of anybody and certainly not of Spaniards and Spain, a country I have family roots in on my mother's side. It's just in my opinion that most Spaniards would probably be happy that I kept my opinions on their matters to myself and spent more time enjoying their country and spending my tourist dollars. Sad and cynical? No mam'n, I'm not sad and cynical.This strikes me as a rather sad and cynical opinion of Spaniards..... and gringos for that matter. Regardless, the morality or ethics of a cultural/traditional practice should not be decided based on economic factors. I come from the American South, as I see you do as well. Surely there are some enduring lessons learned there.
Cruelty and injustice are just that, regardless of whether or not they make money.
Humans are a creative and adaptable species. We can figure out better ways to structure ourselves economically, other than with blood and suffering.
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