Deteriorating Behavior

Marbe2 · Oct 10, 2021

I, must say, that, I experienced that most people seemed quite happy to be walking again. Most bikers were quite aware of their surroundings, slowed down, didn’t cause walkers to jump out of their way,….some even exercised cute bells. Peaceful time even though there was heavy traffic from Sarria. One group of four bikers, lead cyclist, played a recorded song loud enough for us to hear when they were approachng. Most of us us were amused.

dick bird · Oct 10, 2021

Marbe2 said:
I, must say, that, I experienced that most people seemed quite happy to be walking again. Most bikers were quite aware of their surroundings, slowed down, didn’t cause walkers to jump out of their way,….some even exercised cute bells. Peaceful time even though there was heavy traffic from Sarria. One group of four bikers, lead cyclist, played a recorded song loud enough for us to hear when they were approachng. Most of us us were amused.

Collective noun for Spanish cyclists - a shouting. The Spanish, god bless them, love to talk to each other and being on a bicycle is no barrier to a continual flow of animated conversation. We were always aware of the approach of a group of bicigrinos, with a hearty 'buen camino' left in their wake as they headed for the nearest horizon.

VNwalking · Oct 10, 2021

dick bird said:
Of course, in this case the offenders were clearly not in self-centred, individual bubbles.

Lol, I should have been clearer. They were together in a self-centered bubble.

dick bird said:
Next camino perhaps I will take a laminated card (or perhaps a pack of little business cards) containing the phrase 'Would you mind not doing that?' in 50 different languages.

Certainly, little business cards with a message could easily be left to inform the oblivious. And then if you happen to see one of the people reading it looking confused, the door is open for more specific sharing.

But is that the cowardly option? It's an open question - I actually have no settled opinion. Other than thinking that not saying anything because 'surely they know' or 'not my business' or 'surely someone else will tell them this isn't ok" feel like cop outs. What we do in communal spaces affects everyone, so it's everyone's business.

dougfitz · Oct 10, 2021

Marbe2 said:
“Scoring” anywhere is not wholesome.

I don't understand. You must be using the word completely differently to any meaning I give it, even as a slang term for having sexual intercourse. Conducting the act in a communal space isn't something I suspect most of us want to see, but even that doesn't make it unwholesome. What might be is any form of coercion, unsafe practices, and perhaps a few other similar things that suggests informed consent isn't freely given.

Marbe2 · Oct 10, 2021

dougfitz said:
I don't understand. You must be using the word completely differently to any meaning I give it, even as a slang term for having sexual intercourse. Conducting the act in a communal space isn't something I suspect most of us want to see, but even that doesn't make it unwholesome. What might be is any form of coercion, unsafe practices, and perhaps a few other similar things that suggests informed consent isn't freely given.

https://us.breakthrough.tv/resources/know-your-norms-sexual-scoring/

Stroller · Oct 10, 2021

Please bear in mind my senior friends that we raised the generations we now complain about. Just a thought.

dick bird · Oct 10, 2021

VNwalking said:
Lol, I should have been clearer. They were together in a self-centered bubble.

Certainly, little business cards with a message could easily be left to inform the oblivious. And then if you happen to see one of the people reading it looking confused, the door is open for more specific sharing.

But is that the cowardly option? It's an open question - I actually have no settled opinion. Other than thinking that not saying anything because 'surely they know' or 'not my business' or 'surely someone else will tell them this isn't ok" feel like cop outs. What we do in communal spaces affects everyone, so it's everyone's business.

Right ... I get it. Anyway, what to do about unacceptable behaviour? I don't know. Half of me says 'It's wrong, don't put up with it' and half of me says 'you will achieve nothing from confrontation other than fruitless and possibly damaging conflict'. Wisdom is fine in a general sense but judgement is more useful in specific situations. I guess if no harm is done other than offending people's sense of propriety, it is better to walk away and hope that the offender will learn better manners (and the camino is a good teacher) so that you save your energy to protect those who need it.

DoughnutANZ · Oct 10, 2021

VNwalking said:
But is that the cowardly option? It's an open question - I actually have no settled opinion. Other than thinking that not saying anything because 'surely they know' or 'not my business' or 'surely someone else will tell them this isn't ok" feel like cop outs. What we do in communal spaces affects everyone, so it's everyone's business.

Relatively early in my CF, a couple of days after Pamplona, after a long day, other pilgrims and I were having a bit of a siesta in the bunk room. A young (er) woman came in, talking loudly to a guy that it seemed she had recently met.

Everyone in the room got to hear that she was ex-military and now worked in law enforcement. After suffering in silence for a while, and hoping that someone else might say something, I politely asked her if she could please take her conversation to another room as I and others were trying to get some quiet rest in the bunk room.

The young guy that she was talking to left but she didn't. I got the strong impression that she didn't like being told what to do and while I had previously come across the expression "staring daggers" I hadn't really appreciated quite what it entailed until then.

She did at least stop talking but any time that I encountered her in that Albergue after that she made it very clear that she did not like me.

It was probably worth it to get the quiet time but I think that while you can talk about courage all you like, most people do not want to get involved in calling someone else out.

Marbe2 · Oct 10, 2021

VNwalking said:
Lol, I should have been clearer. They were together in a self-centered bubble.

Certainly, little business cards with a message could easily be left to inform the oblivious. And then if you happen to see one of the people reading it looking confused, the door is open for more specific sharing.

But is that the cowardly option? It's an open question - I actually have no settled opinion. Other than thinking that not saying anything because 'surely they know' or 'not my business' or 'surely someone else will tell them this isn't ok" feel like cop outs. What we do in communal spaces affects everyone, so it's everyone's business.

I have been in restaurants, where couples get into heated arguments, disturbing everyone. I give them a couple of minutes, and then, if the talk doesn’t die down, I-politely getup, and either, in a very low key, ask them to please be aware that their, clearly..private conversation,is carrying to all of the patrons in the restaurant…..OR, I get up and ask for management and make them aware that there is a problem.

VNwalking · Oct 10, 2021

Doughnut NZ said:
It was probably worth it to get the quiet time but I think that while you can talk about courage all you like, most people do not want to get involved in calling someone else out.

Very true. We're hard-wired to get along, after all. Which is why people often get away with inconsiderate behaviour.

crhutch · Oct 10, 2021

I remember as a hospitalero in Burgos a young man left and returned an hour later because he forgot to leave a donation. Truly a class act.

crhutch · Oct 10, 2021

good_old_shoes said:
View attachment 110645

That was the box where I put my donativo in, there was already money in there. It was not a normal "give and take" box for unwanted gear. Or maybe pilgrims just misused it for their donativo? Who knows. I might remember wrong, but pretty sure that was in Granon. The box was out in the open, when you had gotten up the staircase, it was on the left on a table. Please correct me if I remember incorrectly, it was over two years ago.

Yes this was Granon. My wife and I were hospitaleros there and at first I always worried that people would not leave a donation. After a couple days I just became amazed how generous pilgrims were. By the way I never saw anyone take money.

dougfitz · Oct 10, 2021

Marbe2 said:
https://us.breakthrough.tv/resources/know-your-norms-sexual-scoring/

I read this, and it makes the very point I was making, ie it's not sex that is the issue, but coercion. To quote one part of it

Let’s be clear, there is nothing wrong with having lots of sex

it then goes on to talk about the problems when there is verbal or physical coercion. The word 'scoring' is used twice, both in headlines. The content of the article doesn't use, or misuse, the term.

Phoenix · Oct 10, 2021

dick bird said:
Of course, in this case the offenders were clearly not in self-centred, individual bubbles. If they had been, the situation would not have occurred. But I have been witness (if that is the right word) to pilgrims getting it on in the middle of the afternoon in a public albergue dorm, and they were neither young nor newly acquainted. They were an elderly married couple. The problem is what to do when someone's behaviour is clearly and obviously unacceptable. You think to yourself 'they must know this is unacceptable, but they are still doing it, so what would be the point of me telling them?'. My perception is that the camino is a remarkable example of a very large number of total strangers behaving extremely well with one another, so the exceptions stand out like small black dots on a large white surface. Maybe we need two threads: a spleen-venting thread and a what-to-do-constructively-about-bad-behaviour thread. Next camino perhaps I will take a laminated card (or perhaps a pack of little business cards) containing the phrase 'Would you mind not doing that?' in 50 different languages.

I must admit... when I read this my first thought was the :slow golf clap: gif.

Marbe2 · Oct 10, 2021

dougfitz said:
I read this, and it makes the very point I was making, ie it's not sex that is the issue, but coercion. To quote one part of it

it then goes on to talk about the problems when there is verbal or physical coercion. The word 'scoring' is used twice, both in headlines. The content of the article doesn't use, or misuse, the term.

Let’s be clear, there is nothing wrong with having lots of sex, or with being straight. But when men set their value and worth on how much sex they are having–and when we as a society police men and men’s behavior to make sure they are having enough sex to keep their “man card”–we have a problem.

SabsP · Oct 10, 2021

Marbe2 said:
Let’s be clear, there is nothing wrong with having lots of sex, or with being straight. But when men set their value and worth on how much sex they are having–and when we as a society police men and men’s behavior to make sure they are having enough sex to keep their “man card”–we have a problem.

I know what you are saying but please do not make this a " man " thing. Just like there are well behaving youngsters and obnoxious seniors there are also women in life and on a Camino who set " their worth" in how much sex they have and how they can " score".

Phoenix · Oct 10, 2021

good_old_shoes said:
Maybe it would be good to have a small forum section for "ranting and venting" "negative experiences on the Camino" or something like that.

As someone else said before, it can be cathartic to write such things down and to discuss them, that's a very human thing to do, and it can be helpful.

But maybe if there was a dedicated section for such threads as this one, that way the negativity that tends to come with them could perhaps be somewhat contained, instead of being all over the forum...? Just a thought.

Yes, please. If I met a group of pilgrims on a Camino path complaining en masse I would walk faster or take a break and let them get far ahead of me.

Marbe2 · Oct 10, 2021

SabineP said:
I know what you are saying but please do not make this a " man " thing. Just like there are well behaving youngsters and obnoxious seniors there are also women in life and on a Camino who set " their worth" in how much sex they have and how they can " score".

I was simply responding to initial statement by someone who was referring to “score” in terms of sex…of course it would apply to females as well!

grayland · Oct 10, 2021

The thread as spiraled downward and is much off topic from the original post.
The thread has been closed for further posts.
Thanks for understanding.

peregrina2000 · Oct 11, 2021

good_old_shoes said:
Maybe it would be good to have a small forum section for "ranting and venting" "negative experiences on the Camino" or something like that.

We wanted forum members to know that the mods have discussed this proposal and were unanimous in our opinion that it would not be a good idea. We never stifle negative commentary (though we realize that this type of thread tends to get contentious and rude, which winds up with it being closed). And we do encourage people to point out countervailing opinions to the more frequent rosy picture. But having a “gripe session subforum” could be seen as an encouragement to complain, and there’s really no point in that.

Complaints are helpful when they provide constructive advice or an interesting perspective, and that opportunity is there under our current system. If anyone wants to discuss this further, you can PM me.

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