- Time of past OR future Camino
- Yearly and Various 2014-2019
Via Monastica 2022
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And does that vary for you, Dave, or is it just me?
Yes.Suffering or happiness is created through one's relationship to experience, not by experience itself.
Me, too. I wondered what all the dramatic descriptions were about. Same on the Invierno with going down to the Miño and up the other side. The latter would have been awful if I was in a hurry. But I wasn't. And anyway, it's so gorgeous that suffering was out of the question.I love the descent from Cruz de Farro down to Molineseca! It's one of my very favorite stretches of the Camino Frances...so beautiful with gorgeous views, and awesome flowers of white, yellow, pink and lavendar; true paths, many areas with bluestone slate underfoot after El Acebo...
Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
Indeed, indeed, as a most eccentric young man I knew used to respond to most greetings.. This someone is blessed with a very short memory when it comes to pain. As soon as a hill is over, I am already breathing and moving normally. I asked before I walked the Ingles, about the hills. I got the truth, (for me) and so agree that, for me, knowing sweetened the pill. As for surfaces: I have little memory of those. I just recall the final day being just what the signage indicated - enchanted!Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
I walked up "that hill" on the Portuguese camino last May and I remember exactly the one you speak of! I thought it was quite a biggy, even though I've walked the Primitivo, Le Puy and Norte!We told friends about a variety of routes when they were trying to choose one and they settled on the Portuguese from Porto. We informed them there was only one climb and it was not significant. That is to say, it was no bigger than any hill we have to climb to go anywhere where we live....our friends come from a flat part of the country and thought the whole route was rolling;-) As for the hill we had mentioned, they thought THAT was a mountain and it nearly killed them (despite the fact that they work out at the gym regularly). To be fair, they walked it in a heat wave and we had raced up it trying to stay warm in a cold rainy storm.
(Now we don't talk about hills!)
The first time we did the Primitivo we bounced along although the heat sometimes was a strain. We had already been walking for eight weeks before that and were in excellent shape.
The last time we walked it (this time last year) for the very first time we had not been hiking regularly beforehand as most of the tracks around us had been closed, and even though the weather was much more favourable I found the walk to be harder! It seemed much more hilly this time;-)
Or difficulty, I guess.Now we don't talk about hills!
Oh! Very wise.This someone is blessed with a very short memory when it comes to pain. As soon as a hill is over, I am already breathing and moving normally.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
To answer your final entreaty: of course! Nothing to forgive. What you say is what some others have said also, in different words. Another way to express it - it isn’t what happens, it’s what you do with happens... that way is freedom. If i could swallow my own medicine , by the hokey, I could climb Everest! The Hill of Howth is good enough for me. Or El Perdon. Or the way out of Pontedeume. Or from Hospital de Bruma...Is it an introvert or extrovert thing?
do folks focus on themselves,the effort...
Or is it the person who only sees the external world around them?
My eternal and final iteration will be a broken body beset by ever increasing physical infirmities and pain.
Thats it..it is what it is.
I am fortunate!
I know what is going to happen and how and in what manner
So....
I am free.
Why worry for a future that was uncertain and veiled by...what if?
So why worry how high,how wide, how hot,how cold how rough,how slippery, how uneven...how....long.
You get to simply decide..is it worth it?
Will the pain be worth the effort?
Notice i didnt say suffering...
That is thankfully gone.
No more suffering...pain? Yes
Suffering..no....
As I said...I..am free. Knowing that the world opens up like a breaking storm..the crepuscular rays are muscular..they light this and that up...cutting away the hubris and detritus of the storms of life so that things are more clear.
So now its easy to see the flowers, and if attractive enough, worth the effort to smell them
If its worth it is all up to how you decide to see things i think...
Hill is a hill
Hot is hot
Stank and sweaty happens on a journey
Let go of why you perceive as what makes you suffer to let go of what makes you suffer
I am in pain morphine wont cut!
And always will be.
I am depressed because of the perpetual onus of the sensations of injury, the psychological pressure of the sensation... and knowing the hurt cannot be fixed. I put my hands to show my pan to the world and the facade cracks..because I am human and i do human things. And there is absolutely nothing the world(out there) can do...
But..
The world in here..(point finger to heart-then to head) is under..at least a measure of perception under control. Where i live(put finger to my head)...is my total existence. Every thing my body feels,senses and perceives is subservient to my thinking self..my existence is between the ears.
As Marcus Aurelius mentioned..The mind is Sovereign
Logic over emotions..so what i feel is less important than what I can experience.
Blue skies
The smell of wet pavement
Hay freshly mown
Laughter
Kittens
The smell of a womans hair
The sound of a loved one calling your name
Silence inside and out
Lol
All this to say i think its a matter of perspective.
Forgive my long windedness?
How many Everest must we climb untill we are sated?To answer your final entreaty: of course! Nothing to forgive. What you say is what some others have said also, in different words. Another way to express it - it isn’t what happens, it’s what you do with happens... that way is freedom. If i could swallow my own medicine , by the hokey, I could climb Everest! The Hill of Howth is good enough for me. Or El Perdon. Or the way out of Pontedeume. Or from Hospital de Bruma...
pain? Yes
Suffering..no....
All this to say i think its a matter of perspective.
I cannot agree more.it isn’t what happens, it’s what you do with happens... that way is freedom.
If i could swallow my own medicine , by the hokey, I could climb Everest! The Hill of Howth is good enough for me. Or El Perdon. Or the way out of Pontedeume. Or from Hospital de Bruma...
So well said and I totally agree. Difficulty is subjective just like so many things on and off the Camino. It is like reading reviews Gronze.com. Sometimes I see15 great reviews of an albergue and 6 or 7 bad ones. I then read the bad ones that complain a hospitalero didn't smile at them. or there were some drunks outside at night or a pilgrim woke them up too early. Those aren't negative those are what life gives us. As DaveBugg stated he always inserts the "to me". I always insert my age and the concerns that I have at my age that differ greatly from just 7 or 8 years ago and will grow a little as I march towards oblivion. Like this example' I did the Norte at 64 last year and for me it was a really difficult camino. especially along the coast.The hills just never seemed to get easier. Having said that I had a great camino and it is absolutely magnificent. The scenery was spectacular. When I have made comments regarding the CF and the Norte in regards to difficulty, outside of the first day, the walk up (Both times in the rain or snow to O'Cebreiro and a few other brief spots I thought the CF was a walk in the park compared to the Norte. I have read others say they are both easy or both about the same. I usually get the impression both here on the forum and on caminos that evaluations for camino difficulties, and hills is very often age related. As one gets older the evaluations of our younger Pilgrims get more annoying too!!!Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
Hi allOften people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
So true!!!Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
Yes. I found that people tend to say that things are not difficult so that others don't feel like they can't do it. But just recently, I saw someone say, "what is hard for me may not be hard for you" and then sent an image of the topography, which I thought was very kind and honest.Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
What a good way to answer that question.sent an image of the topography, which I thought was very kind and honest.
Yes. I found that people tend to say that things are not difficult so that others don't feel like they can't do it. But just recently, I saw someone say, "what is hard for me may not be hard for you" and then sent an image of the topography, which I thought was very kind and honest.
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
I do not quite follow your argument here. The two specific questions you mention are easily answered by looking at the elevation profiles found in most guidebooks and sites like Eroski. They also have factual and fairly unambiguous answers. But knowing the details of the physical topography does not really answer the question of whether that is "hard" or not which remains essentially a personal judgment. I read a description of one of the Kumano Kodo routes posted here a few months ago which bore almost no relation to the route as I remembered it. Though the writer and I had walked exactly the same path.I think some of us ask the question because we would like to know:
1. Are there a lot of +/- 400m hills to climb (and descend) several days in a row, or
2. Is the trail dead flat for 6 days?
Taking those two extreme examples the original poster can analyse, from all the subjective replies, how they (the OP) can objectively consider walking the trail themselves.
It seems a legitimate question to me.
And if we really want to get where we’re going then it’s ourselves we have to overcome not the landscape.
But knowing the details of the physical topography does not really answer the question of whether that is "hard" or not which remains essentially a personal judgment.
What's there to discuss, Vira? You said it all alreadyOften people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
This was part of what I was trying to say, but you put it much better.Those who walk camino more with their hearts than their feet will know where the really hard bits can come from: that Black Dog at your heels, that Glass Wall in front of you; that old life pulling you back as you seek escape velocity....
What's sobering is when you walk the same way twice and this happens!I read a description of one of the Kumano Kodo routes posted here a few months ago which bore almost no relation to the route as I remembered it. Though the writer and I had walked exactly the same path.
I don't know really, I made a wrong (or correct?) turn after leaving the village of Riego de Ambrós, and found myself going down the longer road route, I estimated it to be an additional 4km. When I realised my "mistake", I first felt a bit stupid, but decided I was too far off track to go back (going back uphill wasn't very appealing at that point anyway!). So, I continued on my way, slowly and carefully, occasionally dancing and singing to myself and taking photos of the wonderful views. However, when I met others who had walked the rocky path all the way down, they were all suffering from knee and hip pains, despite some of them being much younger and fitter than me. So, perhaps I had made a correct turn and my feeling of stupidity changed into a feeling of relief.I think you are correct, but that descent from the Cruz de Ferro into Molinaseca sucked both times. My third time, I took the road.
Mindset, current level of fitness, weather, sunshine, nutrition status, fatigue, expectations all factor into perspective. It's all an opinion.
It's not like any of the camino is technically difficult. We don't need crampons, ropes and harnesses.
I was recently fitted with a "Spry-Step" device to ameliorate the neuropathy in my right leg. It has me doubting whether I will ever walk the Camino again.
I wrote Reb Scott and asked, "Have you ever seen anyone walking with something like this?" Her response was frank and sobering, she said she has seen pilgrims walking who are missing limbs.
So after my trek on Via Podiense last year and being questioned daily why I walked so slow, maybe you will see me in 2020 in Spain. I will just be walking shorter distances each day and much slower than everyone else.
What if is the variable and what is is the constant
This was very recently a big point of discussion between me and my Camino Buddy (whilst on Camino). She was born and brought up in the Alps, and can stomp-up-or-down any ascent or descent. It is deffinately relative and subjective. However, for the first time in her life she developed shin splints, along the Primitivo.Often people post questions here, asking how difficult a particular camino is. Or they share in retrospect about a camino they found to be surprisingly hard.
But difficulty is like pain: unmeasurable in any objective way. Both are like asking 'How long is a piece of string?', or saying 'A piece of string is always 10 cm long.' Between people, there's no possibility of equivalence at all - so It's hardly a surprise when someone says they found a camino to be especially difficult for there to be slew of contradictory responses.
And even for each of us, difficulty is so subjective, depending on:
•Fitness
•Age
•Time of day
•Weather
•General health
•Rest
•State of mind and what side of the bunk we rolled out of that morning...
So 'hard' for any of us can vary from day to day and camino to camino - I've been surprised more than once to find a remembered hell-realm to be not so bad at all, and vice versa. And my state of mind is the key.
I remember coming up the Alto de Perdon the second time, dreading the descent I remembered as horrific. It was the same pile of rocks, but a different day - and I found it relatively easy.
Looking back on several caminos, what stands out for me in creating the experience of difficulty is the element of surprise. If I think the day will be a breeze, but it turns out to have a secret ascent or descent, that always seems much harder than a longer or steeper hill that I knew was coming.
Then there are the times when 'hard' happens someplace that had been easy before. Which is often because of gauzy camino memories - forgetting that there had been a killer hill there at all.
Anyone?
Yes. Thanks, @Wokabaut_Meri !The Camino generously provides the path along which we can walk out our ‘hards’ in whatever form they choose to manifest.
Its our limits that define us i think. Subjective and objective thoughts that make the fence between us and the world around.
Some people are tougher acting about obstacles because the obstacles are bigger than they are..yet they face them bravely and how they perceive being brave is from nature\nurture.
Some deprecate to hide experience or inexperience out of fear of perception of weakness.
Then you have those who really dont have any fear of hardship and simply trudge on and enjoy a month long walk.
Watch any person and see the track they follow, all the tells are there..I avoid webs...because spiders
Avoid certain dogs of any breed because bites
Avoid milk products because bad things happen quickly.
Some avoid walking because sweat,footsore,laziness or..
They have to\get to face themselves and all their demons
Physical,mental and emotional....they are all there and make"hard" a defined limit
Some limits are hard and fast
Some i think to some people are negotiable
Some folks dont see limits as an obstacle but waypoints
What is hard...
To this humble soul is watching people being defined by certain limits instead of finding the real limits. Because thats where growth lives
Yes - to put issues into perspective, even resolve them, and realise what we're capable of - even when our feet are covered in blisters or our aches and pains become surmountable.Yes. Thanks, @Wokabaut_Meri !
And (hopefully) it teaches us to get over the tendency to make a big deal out of things that aren't actually a big deal.
I walked with a very funny Hungarian women, who referred to every patch she didn’t like as “-:I think you are correct, but that descent from the Cruz de Ferro into Molinaseca sucked both times. My third time, I took the road.
Mindset, current level of fitness, weather, sunshine, nutrition status, fatigue, expectations all factor into perspective. It's all an opinion.
It's not like any of the camino is technically difficult. We don't need crampons, ropes and harnesses.
She was a very funny lady. Looking for a bikini body first, then a husband! Ate and drank whatever she felt like... my kind of nutHaha! Was that '-:))$&' all in Hungarian?
I bet her company made the time fly. Laughter has a way of diffusing 'hard.'
Haha, maybe we could compile a list of potentially uncomfortable or strenuous parts on the various Caminos, but give them humorous names to lighten the load:She was a very funny lady. Looking for a bikini body first, then a husband! Ate and drank whatever she felt like... my kind of nut
Oh, that explains it.The medieval bridge that crosses the river in Zubiri is called "El Puente de la Rabia" in Castellano, which I originally thought meant people might be angry about something! However, I found this explanation below:
The medieval bridge that gives the town its name crosses the river Arga. It is also known as 'Rabies Bridge' and witnessed a singular tradition in years gone by: animals were walked around its main pillar to stop them getting rabies because legend says that the pillar has the power to cure the disease.
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