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I'm really surprised. I remember well that place from May 2009. I guess the 25% unemployment in Spain is really taking a toll.If you ask me, most likely the Camino was there first...... really, what do you think it's going to happen if you plant fruits and vegetables close by a well-known 800 km walking trail...??? I can certainly say it is tresspassing if people pass physical boundaries (fences, etc...) to pick fruits & vegetables off trees. However, if I can stretch my hand from the Camino and pick a lemon, an orange, or a bunch of grapes, I'll probably do it. I would NOT go out of the way (Camino trail) to do it, though....
By the way, Cirueña remains one of the strangest sights I saw in the Camino. Hundreds and hundreds of unsold condos and a pristine, well-kept huge pool....spooky.
I think some have forgotten that we are simply guests, guests of Spain and guests of the camino.
The camino in Spain is not some free for all adventure whereby we feel entitled to this or that, simply because we believe we are pilgrims. We are pilgrims - visitors from a foreign land ( if look up the meaning of pilgrim, you will learn what is really means) and as expected we should be on our good behaviour as we would anywhere else. When we visit another person's home we do not simply wander in and help ourselves to what is lying around without first asking, do we?
Our hosts like most hosts treat their guests well and generally offer both their time and services graciously mostly without being asked to so. Our hosts include both the those we decide to stay with each night but also include everybody else we pass by.
Did the camino come before them or not? It does not matter. Every Spaniard we pass and every home we pass, we should treat them as are hosts.
But at the very least we as guests, should ask in advance if we can either have some food or take a photo, etc. That is what good guests do and than is what good hosts expect from good guests.
When we start believing we are entitled to take the fruit and vegetables, or simply snap photos of people passing us by without asking then we have some sense of entitlement that we can, that it is allowed since we are pilgrims or we are doing them some favour. Seriously do you honestly believe 1,000 pilgrims passing through some farmer's field each day, plucking the fruit of his trees is doing him a favour? Not everybody wants to be in your photo album.
There so few people in this world that have the financial capabilities to take 4-6 weeks away from work and family commitments to walk the camino. We are the lucky and privileged few and we should understand not only how lucky we are, but how we as guests owe it to our hosts to treat them with respect.
Olivares - regardless of how long the Camino trail has been established, pilgrims of any description have no right to STEAL someone else's property. How would you feel if someone (a pilgrim, a villager) decided that your sleeping bag looked nice and decided to take it? I imagine you would not be impressed, well the farmers feel the same.If you ask me, most likely the Camino was there first...... really, what do you think it's going to happen if you plant fruits and vegetables close by a well-known 800 km walking trail...??? I can certainly say it is tresspassing if people pass physical boundaries (fences, etc...) to pick fruits & vegetables off trees. However, if I can stretch my hand from the Camino and pick a lemon, an orange, or a bunch of grapes, I'll probably do it. I would NOT go out of the way (Camino trail) to do it, though....
By the way, Cirueña remains one of the strangest sights I saw in the Camino. Hundreds and hundreds of unsold condos and a pristine, well-kept huge pool....spooky.
I think the EU has very clear regulations on the issue of produce growing along the camino. From what I've been told, at least, if the fruit is hanging over the public right of way, the public can eat it. So if cherry tree branches come over the camino, you can reach up and pick a few, but you can't go over to the tree and start picking. Does that sound right to the Europeans on the forum?
Of course, at this time of year, one of the most pickable delights is the delicious blackberries growing wild all along the camino. Those, I take it, are just waiting for pilgrims to eat them.
I remember that ghost town. It was really weird walking through it, like we were in some kind of low budget horror movie or something. Everything all pristine and planned out, but almost no people and grass and weeds starting to break through the pavement. Fairly sobering moment.
Two separate issues:
Firstly, theft. I am astounded that pilgrims will feel it acceptable to walk into a farmers private property along the camino and pick grapes, fruit, or vegetables for themselves. Many others have noticed and commented as well. I doubt those same people walk into a little store or a super mercado along the way and just take what they want....there is NO difference.
Secondly, violence. We walked up the steep hill to the deserted golf resort ghost town (ciruana?) and heard shouting and a dog barking. There were a group of 8 or 10 pilgrims gathered with a couple of them screaming, punching, and hitting with walking poles.
Someone took a picture of a lady with her cute dog, complete with a bandaged foot and backpack, like the rest of us. She got angry and wanted him to delete the picture or pay her and it digressed to hitting and yelling. Weird to see on a pilgrimage!!
Needless to say, that "harshed my mellow". Walking through the hundreds of unsold condos a few minutes later just added to it.
On the positive side, Santo Domingo de la Calzada is a pretty cool little town with yet another shocking church! Size wise, I mean. Very grandiose.
Loved your post ChukPinoy! My father would have been puzzled, and maybe even offended, if walkers would go by and ignore the fruit he planted to share.
Two separate issues:
Firstly, theft. I am astounded that pilgrims will feel it acceptable to walk into a farmers private property along the camino and pick grapes, fruit, or vegetables for themselves. Many others have noticed and commented as well. I doubt those same people walk into a little store or a super mercado along the way and just take what they want....there is NO difference.
Secondly, violence. We walked up the steep hill to the deserted golf resort ghost town (ciruana?) and heard shouting and a dog barking. There were a group of 8 or 10 pilgrims gathered with a couple of them screaming, punching, and hitting with walking poles.
Someone took a picture of a lady with her cute dog, complete with a bandaged foot and backpack, like the rest of us. She got angry and wanted him to delete the picture or pay her and it digressed to hitting and yelling. Weird to see on a pilgrimage!!
Needless to say, that "harshed my mellow". Walking through the hundreds of unsold condos a few minutes later just added to it.
On the positive side, Santo Domingo de la Calzada is a pretty cool little town with yet another shocking church! Size wise, I mean. Very grandiose.
I am not sure how photography suddenly became linked to violence. That is most unfortunate and clearly unjustified.As far as the violence. Not acceptable. I left for Morocco after my short walk close to Burgos this year. It doesn't matter which country your in, if people ask not to be photographed, we should respect it. Going through Berber villages in Morocco the women didn't want to be photographed so we all put our cameras away and enjoyed the hike. In Marakech however, picture taking is encouraged, but be prepared to pay cash.
the last 100 km was so different, as regards rubbish toilet paper etc I was sad to see it ; as I thought ifTaking produce, leaving litter and inconsiderate toilet habits must be the MOST irritating behavior by a tiny minority of pilgrims. Sadly it is this aberrant selfish behaviour that will be remembered, talked about and resented by the local residents. Those of us that care can only seek to leave a better impression.
Ciruena is spooky. I saw no one there. It was like being in a zombiemovie. I didn't see any violence during my caminos but I saw a lot of stolen corn (thrown away or just the green stuff from it), and the corn is not even grown for humans, it is for animals. Talked with locals that told me that the corn is more or less uneatable.
I actually got fruit (plums and figs) from locals when passing by and had a lot of those lovely blackberries where it was obvious that they didn't grow on someones land. I saw some signs in the big grape fields that the grapes were sprayed with "poison".
I saw some other signs saying "apples for pilgrims".
@stevenjarvis
I didn't suggest there were easy answers here. I could equally analyse this the other way - is it un-courteous to ask someone to forego doing something they have a right to do?
What concerned me more was linking photography to violence. That needed to be rebutted.
Regards,
I didn't sugest that you had suggested.... and no, it would not be discourteous to ask someone not to take a photograph. As with the grapes.@stevenjarvis
I didn't suggest there were easy answers here. I could equally analyse this the other way - is it un-courteous to ask someone to forego doing something they have a right to do?
What concerned me more was linking photography to violence. That needed to be rebutted.
Regards,
A sign on the Camino Frances...The Dude recalls a sign posted at the entrance to Tillmans ravine in Stokes State forest,
" Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints "
this should apply to the Camino as much as it does to wilderness nature trails.
We also found this little town very eerie, was always curious to know....was it ever inhabited and then people couldn't afford to make payments and walk away, or did the units never sell ? I wonder how much they sell for now ?
Even with the changes in mortgage laws you don't walk away from a Spanish mortgage. They are still mostly full recourse. That means if you walk away you leave the house,your bank account,car and potentially still have payments to make
There are different kind of corn, the one that grows along Camino Francés in not the one you grow for humans according to people I talked to. The sweet corn that is for eating is higher. I saw some harvest of corn on Camino Inglés, they just chopped up everything corn, stem, leaves to make animal food.A great BBQ will always have the corn , in the foil and a little butter.
I know. The point I tried to make was that people are stealing, thinking it is eatable (they will probably not get sick if they do but it doesn't taste good unless it is sprayed then they can get sick as well) and then they throw it away. It is so wrong in my eyes. I don't like when people thinking that everything along the Camino is free. Not paying at donotivos, stealing crops and fruits etc.BeatriceKarjalainen, OFF TOPIC , I know, but as you mentioned it... it's all maize . There are many varieties, we humans like the smaller higher sugar content variety. Here is some useful information http://www.agricultured.org/2012/08/14/difference-between-sweet-corn-and-field-corn/
@stevenjarvisI didn't sugest that you had suggested.... and no, it would not be discourteous to ask someone not to take a photograph. As with the grapes.
I know. The point I tried to make was that people are stealing, thinking it is eatable .
Just to add my tuppence worth to the issue of 'picking' fruit etc.
If it is there as a cultivated crop, regardless of whether it can be 'picked' by reaching out your arm from the Camino path/trail you are standing on, it is theft, pure and simple.
If the grower of the cultivated fruit wanted you to help yourself to whatever you could reach from trailside that he/she would post signs accordingly. Otherwise leave the person who has put in the effort of planting, hoeing, watering and weeding the crop the well deserved fruits of their own labour.
The likes of blackberries growing growing wild trailside is a totally different matter as no matter of ownership/labour is involved.
Have good manners and common sense fellow pilgrims and regard the property of others with the respect you would hope others to give to your possessions.
Seamus
I need to grow my garden where it is. If it happens to be near the camino de santiago, does that mean I have to accept that a large percentage of my labor will vanish into the pockets and mouths of passing strangers -- most of whom can afford to buy their own fruit and veg? No.
And if my garden is near the trail, why should I have to erect signs and fences to keep these people from stealing my produce? Are they not decent, law-abiding people, on their way to honor a saint? Why should I spend my time and money "sending a signal" that I do not want to become their victim? Can´t these people police one another? Why does their desire for instant gratification become my loss?
I love the whole dreamy "the camino will provide for me" ethos. But I live in an agricultural area of the Frances, where profit margins are narrow and a few villagers look on pilgrims as "locusts."
Well, @David, you come from a country where an individual has very few rights to privacy with respect to having their photograph taken if they are in a public place, and your proposed remedy would more than likely constitute an assault. As for the trite line of reducing another human being to an object, that seems to be rehearsed from criticism of a much more sinister line of image making, and really has no application to a genuine desire to keep a record of one's travels.As for the camera episode - what is it about holding a camera that in so many people, especially the self-styled 'photographers', that removes all sense of awareness of the privacy and rights of another person? I loathe this attitude, it is arrogant, unkind, and reduces another human to an object. If I could work out how to carry them I would always have half a dozen custard pies with me so that I could (gently and peacefully and without malice) stuff them into the faces of such people, then walk on, smiling and wishing them well
Jonnie Marbles didn't find it an obvious absurdity a couple of years ago, and he was convicted of assault. It's just not funny outside of the carefully scripted confines of staged comedy routines, and barely qualifies as humour there.As for the custard pie remedy being an assault, I think that you might find that the suggestion was a thing called humour - you might have seen a similar thing at a circus when you were a child? .... it is a classic 'gag' , and bringing such an obvious absurdity into a proposed 'remedy' is a continuation of the centuries-old image-gag - humour dougfizz, humour, surely, you must have heard of it
Well said Joe ; Hear hear !It never ceases to amaze me the amount of conversation a post about a negative situation on the Camino can generate. In my opinion, there is one negative action for every hundred positive actions on the Camino. I would suggest we focus on all those generous/positive acts.
In regards to picture taking, no one wants to deprive someone of a pictorial remembrance of their Camino/holiday etc. Laws aside we should have enough mutual respect for each other to abstain from capturing the image of someone who does not want to be photographed.
Ultreya,
Joe
Just to add my tuppence worth to the issue of 'picking' fruit etc.
If it is there as a cultivated crop, regardless of whether it can be 'picked' by reaching out your arm from the Camino path/trail you are standing on, it is theft, pure and simple.
Seamus
Seamus, I appreciate this answer. So I think there are two tenable positions staked out. One is that you should never pick the fruit/produce of anything that has roots in someone's private property, no matter where the branches extend. That's your position, right? The one I tentatively suggested was the one that I thought was the law in the EU. That once branches/stems etc. leave the borders of the private property and hang into the public right of way, they are no longer private property and are available for picking/eating to anyone passing on the public right of way.
If I'm right about what the law says, though, picking from branches on the public right of way can't be theft, can it? Laurie
With all due respect Laurie , I think you're getting confused with Roman Law, which does - I believe - allow that, "fruit which overhangs a public right of way belongs to the person who picks it". However, I doubt very much if such Roman Law applies to modern day Europe.Seamus, I appreciate this answer. So I think there are two tenable positions staked out. One is that you should never pick the fruit/produce of anything that has roots in someone's private property, no matter where the branches extend. That's your position, right? The one I tentatively suggested was the one that I thought was the law in the EU. That once branches/stems etc. leave the borders of the private property and hang into the public right of way, they are no longer private property and are available for picking/eating to anyone passing on the public right of way.
If I'm right about what the law says, though, picking from branches on the public right of way can't be theft, can it? Laurie
Laurie
You sound like a lawyer.
This said, you have made one critical assumption that the right of way is in fact public. It is very possible and we do not know for sure what legal arrangement are in place where the current camino path passes through. Some farmers may have agreed to allow the current path to pass through their property with means the track and path itself might be in fact belong the farmer, who has granted permission to people to pass through and only that.
Legality aside I think it generally more humane, polite and sociable to ask before taking whether it is fruit or photos - that is all I wanted to say.
I think when we start to over analyze something, whether is legal or right, etc, traditional or not, then we have lost sight of the meaning of what the camino is all about.
Certainly the principle in Australia is that where plants overhang a property boundary, any produce that is also overhanging can be collected by whoever owns the property it hangs over. If it is public land then it can be collected by any passer-by. I can only imagine that this came into Australia from Britain, and might apply in other countries with similar legal antecedents.With all due respect Laurie , I think you're getting confused with Roman Law, which does - I believe - allow that, "fruit which overhangs a public right of way belongs to the person who picks it". However, I doubt very much if such Roman Law applies to modern day Europe.
Certainly, as others have said, MORALLY it is plainly wrong to help yourself to the fruits of another's labours.
David, your earlier post claimed it was 'obviously absurd' to think one would actually attempt this. I have merely falsified your argument by pointing to a recent real incident where someone who relied on it being seen as humourous was found guilty of assault.So, I'll take that answer as a 'no' then, writing about custard pies is not humour ..... oh dear ..... so, the word is out, all pilgrims with a sense of the absurd, please do remember that we all must remember to live our lives within carefully scripted confines ... I do hope that there aren't any banana skins on the Camino .....
As a contrast there are stories of people who starve to death because they are too proud to steal.
David, your earlier post claimed it was 'obviously absurd' to think one would actually attempt this. I have merely falsified your argument by pointing to recent real incident where someone who relied on it being seen as humourous was found guilty of assault.
The humour in the custard pie joke is in the portrayal of violent humiliation of the victim. I think we allow ourselves to see it as humorous only because we know that it is staged, and the victim is an actor who is neither hurt nor humiliated. I find it difficult to understand why you would even suggest any form of violent humiliation outside of that context is appropriate at all, let alone in a thread like this.
I stayed at Corazón Puro in Bizkarreta in 2014. What I loved were the private vegetable gardens in every little space around town. Packed to the brim with seemingly no little trails between to even pick the produce. With no real grocery store in town (I don't think I shopped or found Supermerkatua Coviran, I was shown a little Mom and Pop general store), they were growing for their year-round family consumption.I remember asking a small shop owner this summer why we couldn't find lettuce in the local stores and she said that everyone grew their own and therefore would not be able to sell them...
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