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Comparing flying and driving is very different than comparing flying and travelling by train. Train travel is far safer than both flying and driving - not to mention much better for the planet than both.Any distance beyond 2.4 kms is safer to have been flown than driven.
I did the London - Paris - Hendaye/Irun - Pamplona trip.
At Hendaye the train stopped, engines off, lights out. All the staff
dismounted and went over to meet someone at the station. Lots
of kissing and hugging. I was panicking a little by now. Then they all got
back on, engine started up and away we went.
The "slow" ride down to Pamplona, rather than a "quick" flight, was a
great way to start a pilgrimage
Excellent comparison. These camino people are pretty sharp and I will have to up my game!! Thanks for the comment. I was making it only to show that we often give no thought to driving 10 kms and that could be used to calibrate our anxieties. Very impressed with you comment!! You can be my friend in any conversation!!!Comparing flying and driving is very different than comparing flying and travelling by train. Train travel is far safer than both flying and driving - not to mention much better for the planet than both.
Beware of "hand luggage" restrictions through the Tunnel. There are some big bins, full of "it's ok I can take this on the bus" items.This way on the bus I can take a larger suncream, walking poles, penknife and scissors to cut my tape for my feet
thanks a lotI’ve used Eurostar to Paris & the TGV to Bordeaux / Bayonne to walk the Frances, Norte and others.
If you want to get all the way to Santiago by train your routing is likely the most practical even if not the most fun.
Paris- Madrid opens the entire Spanish rail network so Pamplona, Burgos, Leon, Sahagun, Ourense, Oviedo and a plentiful supply of other potential Camino start points become available.
Rom2rio and themaninseat66 are friends
Beware of "hand luggage" restrictions through the Tunnel. There are some big bins, full of "it's ok I can take this on the bus" items.
You'll be aware that a direct flight Manchester to Madrid / Bilbao / Santander and a bus to Burgos will have a net carbon impact no greater and possibly less than using road transport all the way. While the aviation industry is a massive contributor individual flights aren't.
There is no carbon neutral way of leaving your home parish. Thats why medieval pilgrims needed their Bishops permission to go
Haha, not flying is a luxury you can afford on your side of the world. There are no trains between the Antipides & the rest of the world. Planes or those expensive cruise ships are Antipodeans only options. So you can sit back feeling good about your green choices because you have choices. Lol!No, that's not correct. Measured in grams of CO2 per passenger kilometre, carbon footprint of the bus trip is about 40% of the short haul flight. Look up visual carbon footprint calculators for the stats. Short haul flights are the worst offenders on this
It's not a perfect solution but a reduction of 60% of my carbon footprint is better than 0. Train as I said is lots better, but prohibitively expensive for me.
And if we want to get the world we want to see its important to make choices about that - and not fly. We've done successful campaigning in my city to get the buses taken back under local authority control and we're slowly electrifying them.
It's very slow but activism, campaigning for active and green and greener travel is working
I think telling people it doesn't make a difference individual flights don't matter is irresponsible
Haha, not flying is a luxury you can afford on your side of the world. There are no trains between the Antipides & the rest of the world. Planes or those expensive cruise ships are Antipodeans only options. So you can sit back feeling good about your green choices because you have choices. Lol!
Hmm, its no wonder we call it the climate change debate.No, that's not correct. Measured in grams of CO2 per passenger kilometre, carbon footprint of the bus trip is about 40% of the short haul flight. Look up visual carbon footprint calculators for the stats. Short haul flights are the worst offenders on this
We don't call it the 'climate change debate' any more. We call it climate science denial.Hmm, its no wonder we call it the climate change debate.
View attachment 126848
The carbon, and environmental, costs of road / airport construction and maintenance seem to excluded. Nevertheless
1874 km (road) x 105gm/km = 196,770 gm/CO2
1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174,564 gm/CO2
Climate science denial debateWe don't call it the 'climate change debate' any more. We call it climate science denial.
AlexJust finishing it now, it’s London Paris Paris Hendaye , then cross the border Irun to Vitoria , Vitoria to Santiago
But there is no meaningful way to travel from Hendaye to Santiago than indeed going through Vitoria-Gasteiz when your aim is to travel by train within a reasonable timeframe. Unless you want to go on other and very slow trains on purpose. I did not understand why people mentioned Pamplona in this context, it is out of the way ... BTW, when planning long-distance train trips, it is often helpful to look at a railway network map and not just rely only on what a ticket booking tool suggests.so via the Basque capital then. Interesting. No-one came up with that one
Yes, that particular calculator is very odd.This is a bit of an absurd discussion, and, sorry, but to say I can't "afford" to take the train so I am going to take the bus ... and what people label as "luxury" in this context ... mind boggling. Sorry, but the question one ought to ask: Do I really need to travel and do I need to travel so far? And the honest answer in most cases would be: NO. Leisure travel is the luxury, not the mode of transport for leisure travel. And most obviously: the more people travel for leisure and the farther they travel for leisure the worse for the use of non-replaceable resources and of the lasting effect of burning them.
Short-haul flights have a higher CO2 footprint per passenger and km than medium and long distance flights, due to the proportionally higher fuel consumption at start and landing. There are efforts to ban them, not very successfully so far. France has made a first step: Domestic flights are now no longer allowed when an alternative of a train or bus connection of two and a half hours or less exists for the same distance.
There are thousands of "calculators". Just for amusement, as I saw this on the BBC website, below is one that covers London to Madrid. Note: As to CO2 emissions alone, bus is worse than long-haul flight according to these results but not coach???
View attachment 126850
Flixbus.I am hoping to go soon if well enough. The train is out of my price bracket. And ferries are also quite expensive. Cheapest non flight option for me is flix bus Manchester to London, fix bus to vitoria gasteiz (change in paris, same bus station), then alsa bus to burgos, where I will start. I am staying over at a friend's in London and will ideally break the journey in Paris on return.
I found the answer to my own question in the meantime: these standard CO2 emission figures are average figures per passenger and per kilometre travelled, and they are based on average occupancy. Average occupancy on long distance coaches is higher than average occupancy on city buses, hence I guess coaches are on a better position in the list than buses. It is all not so simple ... the French trains from Paris to Biarritz are all fully booked today on the start of this long Whitsun weekend. Should we rejoice?that particular calculator is very odd.
I obviously should have expanded a little on my calculation above. As an Auditor I should always ensure that my message will be easily understood by its recipients.
The potential journey was Manchester UK to Burgos Spain. Data source UK Department Business Energy & Industrial Strategy. I've also factored in travel to the airport & on to Burgos.
So, Travel by Road (Bus) from Manchester to London, London to Dover, Calais to Paris, Paris to Vittoria, Vittoria to Burgos = 1874 km travel (+/-1%) at a cost of 105gm/km = Total Carbon Cost 196.77 Kg/CO2
Flight Manchester Airport to Bilbao 1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174. 65 Kg/CO2
Manchester to Manchester airport (Bus) 23km x 105gm/km = 2.42 Kg/CO2
Bilbao to Burgos (Bus) 158km x 105 gm/km = 16.59 Kg/CO2
Total Carbon Cost 193.66 Kg/CO2
Thanks for this info, i was not aware of that info on flixbus. It won some earth awards this year so I figured it was decent.Flixbus.
Thinking abut the climate is one thing but using this company that has serious labourissues is far from perfect either.
Overworked and underpaid chauffeurs.
Those low prices have an ethical impact too.
Hi Ned!I am surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious solution - walk from Manchester to Santiago/ then back again!!!
Seriously try www.csj.co.uk - see if they can help
More lively discussion on FB page Ultreia Mancunia
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