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yes, it's long been promoted by the Basque Country tourist people. The main snag with it is that there's no connection on the Castillian side.madrid12 said:I think also there is a route inland off the Camino del Norte at Bilbao inland through Balmaseda to join up at Burgos
jabri said:I compared the two descriptions, the one on the Camino Olvidado Blog (http://elcaminoolvidado.blogspot.com/) and the one of the Viejo Camino (http://camino-medieval.webs.com/Camino% ... public.pdf.)
From Aguilar de Campo both descriptions use the same route/places, but the Camino Olvidado goes from Congosto (that is after Losada) straight west to Camponaraya and Villafranca del Bierzo, The Viejo Camino goes from Congosto south to Ponferrada.
Jan Brilleman
thanks for this link. I wasn't aware that this was available online. I see they also have the 1927 xlation of Book V of the Codex Calixtinus http://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/i18n/c ... .cmd?id=83caminka said:I read through the second book of vazquez de parga et al. Las peregrinaciones a Santiago de Compostela. a fascinating book, accessible here: http://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/i18n/consulta/registro.cmd?id=4145&formato=ficha&aplicar=Aplicar.
yes, that's right. The Roman roads remain the backbone of the modern road system to this day. The detour of the Bordeaux-Astorga route via Navarre is well documented, and it's reasonable to assume that pilgrims prior to this used the Roman road, though there's not much documentary evidence from that period.caminka said:I came out with a possible explanation for the name 'viejo'. I think that it might refer to the portion of the main roman road between pamplona and burgos that passes more to the north then the route today
caminka said:googlemaps in these parts are of low resolution and it was impossible to see the tracks and paths so I had to use roads more often that I would like.
Peter Robins said:I wasn't aware that this was available online.
Peter Robins said:Google maps aren't much use if you don't use roads. Use the IGN maps instead
caminka said:and here it goes...
enjoy!
ooo, thanks, reb! please let me know if you find any typos. I do read and reread and reread again, but some always slip past.Rebekah Scott said:Wow, what an information-packed document! It should keep me dreaming right into springtime!
cool. more people up there the better. looks really beautiful in the snow.Rebekah Scott said:Evidently, a big group from the Leon Amigos group were up on the Viejo in February, hiking a portion in the snow! There are a couple of accounts here, in their latest newsletter:
Hi!
I've recently done the Portuguese Camino and in Santiago went to a book store and found a litle book with all the Caminos in Spain. And it had this one that I didn't know about.
Does anyone know anything about this "viejo camino"?
Thanks for your reply.
Ovelha
Click on the image to see the full length
I thought to post my stages of viejo, to help people organize their camino a little better. my guide purposefully avoids this, to give as much freedom of planning as possible, but I know that sometimes some people prefer a bit less choice (like the popular stages on frances).
and, let's face it, I need a good dose of camino memories!
pamplona - villanueva de arakil, 31km via irurtzun
a fairly long day on sometimes difficult former gr21 (waymarks removed). requires some orientation skills. casa rural irigoen with superb treatment, atmosphere, and food. HP for 27E. two houses with blasones with scallops in the village.
villanueva de arakil - monasterio zamartze, 8km
an unplanned stay, excavations in monasterio (roman waystation and medieval graves, some with scallops), and a car visit to santuario de aralar. but monasterio zamartze doesn't usually accommodate people - perhaps that might change in the future? otherwise, I would recommend going as far as alsasua (29km).
monasterio zamartze - puerto de lizarraga, 23km
a majestic day almost literally straight up from huarte arakil to beriain (1000m climb in less then 6km) with a superb view all around, fog permitting, then a solitary and somewhat longish descent to puerto lizarraga. the only water in huarte arakil! hostal in puerto lizarraga 50E per room.
puerto de lizarraga - alsasua, 20km
a walk on panoramic ridge then a descent through beautiful forest to alsasua. in albergue juvenil ring the right bell. 17E.
alsasua - salvatierra, 24km
into the plain of vitoria-gasteiz, past a stunning dolmen. pension hose mari with special pilgrim price, 15E. now there should also be pilgrim albergue. superb tourist info office.
salvatierra - vitoria-gasteiz, 28km
fairly long day if you want to see at least a few must-sees in vitoria (catedral, casco antiguo, museo naipes, many churches). pension la paz, special price 25E. but there is now albergue in the centre.
vitoria-gasteiz - puebla de arganzon, 22km
up and down portillo san miguel. albergue with microwave.
puebla de arganzon - miranda de ebro, 19km
taking care after estavillo to go right (for burgos, not santo domingo de la calzada), then after arminon there are two options, left newer and passing a dolmen, right older and the last kms before miranda not waymarked anymore. both more or less the same in length. albegue juvenil with microwave. BB 11.50E.
miranda de ebro - banos de sobron, 24km
joining gr 99 ruta del ebro. the first canyon. hostal durtzi, 25E.
banos de sobron - quintana martin galindez, 21km
I opted for the road, gr 99 goes up and down the mountains. hostal valle tobalina, 30E. there is now albergue, too, a bit out of town.
quintana martin galindez - trespaderne, 23km
superb bridge, town, castle, panorama of frias, recommended for a rest day. in trespaderne there is only hostal jose luiz, 28E.
trespaderne - quintana de valdevieso, 24.5km
two magical gorges, a fantastic romanesque church, and friendly people. be persistent for a dorm bed in albergue arte y natura, at first they tried to sell me the most expensive double. 18E.
quintana de valdevieso - pesquera de ebro, 23.5km
a superb example of roman/medieval/old raised road, a curious dolmen with a round chambre and a fine view of canon del ebro. casa rural arco, 42E.
pesquera de ebro - orbaneja del castillo, 25km
majestic canon del ebro, very picturesque orbaneja, superb panoramas. casa rural abuelo very friendly and with kitchen, but buy supplies in pesquera. 25E.
orbaneja del castillo - polientes, 18.5km
leaving canon del ebro, another fine romanesque church. friendly pension sanpatiel came with free laundry done by the lady of the house, 30E.
polientes - villanueva de la nia, 16km
there are expensive options further on if this is too short. another fine church. good food in posada cazador, the only in the village, 24E.
villanueva de la nia - aguilar de campoo, 27.5km
leaving ebro and gr 99, not waymarked. after the climb out of the valley vast plains. hotel villa de aguilar in centre, 35E. hostal cortez may be cheaper if they answer the phone.
aguilar de campoo - cervera de pisuerga, 27.5km
joining camino olivdado and yellow arrows. but lost them after quintanilla de corvio, should keep more to the left. in cervera very friendly tourist office. albergue is further 1.5km north and was full. hostal pineda, 20E (ask for low price).
cervera de pisuerga - castrejon de la pena, 21km
including a detour to valle de tosante and an almost roundabout route via traspena de la pena because I wanted to see the cruceiro and the church (which was open!). got a special offer in casa rural uncar, 25E.
castrejon de la pena - guardo, 23.5km
more or less joining the main road. albergue is 1.2km further on the route west of centre, call ahead. in centre pension garmar not too recommended. lodged by a super friendly couple.
guardo - punete almuhey, 15km
after the main road an ok waymarked stretch through woods. friendly casa rural muria, 25E.
puente almuhey - cistierna, 25km
camino goes north to santuario velilla, but I opted for the main road because I had a sick afternoon and night. for albergue key go to ayuntamiento or call a phone number posted on the door.
cistierna - bonar, 23.5km
a short 'detour' south with ruta vadiniense, but the split clearly waymarked. then the route follows a minor road which I eluded by a mountain bike route. in bonar also albergue. hostal ines, 20E.
bonar - la robla, 31km
a long day with lots of main road walking. the second part which is off the road might be blocked because of the new railway construction. for albergue call in advance, or stop by the tourist office (open till 14h), it's 500m north of the route. has kitchen.
la robla - pandorado, 32km
another long day with lots of main road walking. construction of the new industrial buildings at magdalena obliges you to stay on the main road. after leaving the road after riello you need sharp eyes to spot the very few arrows on the first 500m of the climb. call ahead to casa rural resthy to arrange for a two-night stay and transportation back and to fasgar. it has a kitchen. 60E.
pandorado - fasgar (pandorado), 26km
some tracks, still lots of side road. practically no supplies, only two bars on the route, but a few fountains. again casa rural resthy in pandorado, 60E + 30E for the transport.
fasgar - iguena, 20km
a beautiful day up to campo de santiago de martin moro then down, here a bit stony and precarious, to iguena. enough springs. hostal here closed! call ahead for casa rural begona, with kitchen. 30E.
iguena - bembibre, 27.5km
after quintana de fuseros and its fountain a long and lonely stretch to labaniego where all fountains were dry but there were poeple to ask for water. after it watch out for an arrow where you have to descend right to go to losada. I went left and ended in bembibre. hostal carmen, 25E.
bembibre - ponferrada, 18km
I followed the main road because I didn't know there is a much more beautiful path from san miguel de duenas on. albergue in ponferrada has fountain, showers and wcs in the courtyard open all day.
you have no idea how happy I was when I found that link. the only internet book seller that had it wanted $500!
yeah, roman roads were used well into middle ages wherever they were available. it's the name that is more confusing, and what we today understand under that name. it would require a thourough study to see when the name 'viejo' comes up, where, in what context...
I do. it's just that, at least in france, many tracks that are marked on IGN are private and blocked, some even don't exist anymore because two fields became one, there are many new roads... I'll yet have to see how this is in spain. and the cams they have on google maps really help with details you just can't pick from a map.
nope, not yet. next year.
I am currently revising my itinerary (done with italy and in provence right now). I will be here more often when I 'come' to spain as there is not that many info on previous countries. that includes camino invierno and all of laurie's comments.
I read through the second book of vazquez de parga et al. Las peregrinaciones a Santiago de Compostela. a fascinating book, accessible here: http://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/i18n/consulta/registro.cmd?id=4145&formato=ficha&aplicar=Aplicar.
I came out with a possible explanation for the name 'viejo'. I think that it might refer to the portion of the main roman road between pamplona and burgos that passes more to the north then the route today. what of the 'camino viejo' north of ponferrada I mentioned in one post above? it might have a totally different origin.
The text of Historia Silensis (c. 1110), where there is the first mention of a pilgrim route in Spain per se, recounts that iter Sancti Iacobi has been secured from the barbarians by Navarrese king Sancho el Mayor from the Pyrenees to castrum Nazara (Nájera) so that peregrini won't have to make a detour via (the land of) Alava. Later Rodrigo Jiménez de Rada (born in Puente la Reina in c. 1170 – 1247 Jun 10), archbishop of Toledo, in De rebus Hispaniae (V, 25) gives the route in more detail: iter Sancti Iacobi quod propter insultus Arabum per Alauam et Asturiarum deuia frequentabant, ab Anagaro per Biruescam et Amaiam immutauit, et per confinia Carrionis donec ad Legionem et Astoricam veniatur (from the course Alava – Asturias to the course Nájera – Briviesca – Amaya – border of Carrión – León – Astorga). This is thought to represent the older route, before it was given the present course by Sancho el Mayor. It is, possibly, what is now known as Viejo Camino, and it followed the course of the roman road from Bordeaux to Astorga, passing Roncesvalles – Pamplona – in Alava the valleys of Araquil and Salvatierra – near Vitoria – across Ebro N of Miranda – Briviesca.
The first possible known traveller on this route was bishop of Oporto who in the 12C travelled from Olorón via Jaca or Estella across Guipúzcoa and Vizcaya per devia montium, vallium atque marium to reach Carrión where he finally encountered publicae viae.
what do you think?
is it possible to relocate this post to a more accessible place? like to the 'other routes to santiago' section? it's a bit of pain searching for it every time.
I thought to post my stages of viejo, to help people organize their camino a little better. my guide purposefully avoids this, to give as much freedom of planning as possible, but I know that sometimes some people prefer a bit less choice (like the popular stages on frances).
and, let's face it, I need a good dose of camino memories!
pamplona - villanueva de arakil, 31km via irurtzun
a fairly long day on sometimes difficult former gr21 (waymarks removed). requires some orientation skills. casa rural irigoen with superb treatment, atmosphere, and food. HP for 27E. two houses with blasones with scallops in the village.
villanueva de arakil - monasterio zamartze, 8km
an unplanned stay, excavations in monasterio (roman waystation and medieval graves, some with scallops), and a car visit to santuario de aralar. but monasterio zamartze doesn't usually accommodate people - perhaps that might change in the future? otherwise, I would recommend going as far as alsasua (29km).
monasterio zamartze - puerto de lizarraga, 23km
a majestic day almost literally straight up from huarte arakil to beriain (1000m climb in less then 6km) with a superb view all around, fog permitting, then a solitary and somewhat longish descent to puerto lizarraga. the only water in huarte arakil! hostal in puerto lizarraga 50E per room.
puerto de lizarraga - alsasua, 20km
a walk on panoramic ridge then a descent through beautiful forest to alsasua. in albergue juvenil ring the right bell. 17E.
alsasua - salvatierra, 24km
into the plain of vitoria-gasteiz, past a stunning dolmen. pension hose mari with special pilgrim price, 15E. now there should also be pilgrim albergue. superb tourist info office.
salvatierra - vitoria-gasteiz, 28km
fairly long day if you want to see at least a few must-sees in vitoria (catedral, casco antiguo, museo naipes, many churches). pension la paz, special price 25E. but there is now albergue in the centre.
vitoria-gasteiz - puebla de arganzon, 22km
up and down portillo san miguel. albergue with microwave.
puebla de arganzon - miranda de ebro, 19km
taking care after estavillo to go right (for burgos, not santo domingo de la calzada), then after arminon there are two options, left newer and passing a dolmen, right older and the last kms before miranda not waymarked anymore. both more or less the same in length. albegue juvenil with microwave. BB 11.50E.
miranda de ebro - banos de sobron, 24km
joining gr 99 ruta del ebro. the first canyon. hostal durtzi, 25E.
banos de sobron - quintana martin galindez, 21km
I opted for the road, gr 99 goes up and down the mountains. hostal valle tobalina, 30E. there is now albergue, too, a bit out of town.
quintana martin galindez - trespaderne, 23km
superb bridge, town, castle, panorama of frias, recommended for a rest day. in trespaderne there is only hostal jose luiz, 28E.
trespaderne - quintana de valdevieso, 24.5km
two magical gorges, a fantastic romanesque church, and friendly people. be persistent for a dorm bed in albergue arte y natura, at first they tried to sell me the most expensive double. 18E.
quintana de valdevieso - pesquera de ebro, 23.5km
a superb example of roman/medieval/old raised road, a curious dolmen with a round chambre and a fine view of canon del ebro. casa rural arco, 42E.
pesquera de ebro - orbaneja del castillo, 25km
majestic canon del ebro, very picturesque orbaneja, superb panoramas. casa rural abuelo very friendly and with kitchen, but buy supplies in pesquera. 25E.
orbaneja del castillo - polientes, 18.5km
leaving canon del ebro, another fine romanesque church. friendly pension sanpatiel came with free laundry done by the lady of the house, 30E.
polientes - villanueva de la nia, 16km
there are expensive options further on if this is too short. another fine church. good food in posada cazador, the only in the village, 24E.
villanueva de la nia - aguilar de campoo, 27.5km
leaving ebro and gr 99, not waymarked. after the climb out of the valley vast plains. hotel villa de aguilar in centre, 35E. hostal cortez may be cheaper if they answer the phone.
aguilar de campoo - cervera de pisuerga, 27.5km
joining camino olivdado and yellow arrows. but lost them after quintanilla de corvio, should keep more to the left. in cervera very friendly tourist office. albergue is further 1.5km north and was full. hostal pineda, 20E (ask for low price).
cervera de pisuerga - castrejon de la pena, 21km
including a detour to valle de tosante and an almost roundabout route via traspena de la pena because I wanted to see the cruceiro and the church (which was open!). got a special offer in casa rural uncar, 25E.
castrejon de la pena - guardo, 23.5km
more or less joining the main road. albergue is 1.2km further on the route west of centre, call ahead. in centre pension garmar not too recommended. lodged by a super friendly couple.
guardo - punete almuhey, 15km
after the main road an ok waymarked stretch through woods. friendly casa rural muria, 25E.
puente almuhey - cistierna, 25km
camino goes north to santuario velilla, but I opted for the main road because I had a sick afternoon and night. for albergue key go to ayuntamiento or call a phone number posted on the door.
cistierna - bonar, 23.5km
a short 'detour' south with ruta vadiniense, but the split clearly waymarked. then the route follows a minor road which I eluded by a mountain bike route. in bonar also albergue. hostal ines, 20E.
bonar - la robla, 31km
a long day with lots of main road walking. the second part which is off the road might be blocked because of the new railway construction. for albergue call in advance, or stop by the tourist office (open till 14h), it's 500m north of the route. has kitchen.
la robla - pandorado, 32km
another long day with lots of main road walking. construction of the new industrial buildings at magdalena obliges you to stay on the main road. after leaving the road after riello you need sharp eyes to spot the very few arrows on the first 500m of the climb. call ahead to casa rural resthy to arrange for a two-night stay and transportation back and to fasgar. it has a kitchen. 60E.
pandorado - fasgar (pandorado), 26km
some tracks, still lots of side road. practically no supplies, only two bars on the route, but a few fountains. again casa rural resthy in pandorado, 60E + 30E for the transport.
fasgar - iguena, 20km
a beautiful day up to campo de santiago de martin moro then down, here a bit stony and precarious, to iguena. enough springs. hostal here closed! call ahead for casa rural begona, with kitchen. 30E.
iguena - bembibre, 27.5km
after quintana de fuseros and its fountain a long and lonely stretch to labaniego where all fountains were dry but there were poeple to ask for water. after it watch out for an arrow where you have to descend right to go to losada. I went left and ended in bembibre. hostal carmen, 25E.
bembibre - ponferrada, 18km
I followed the main road because I didn't know there is a much more beautiful path from san miguel de duenas on. albergue in ponferrada has fountain, showers and wcs in the courtyard open all day.
Only one comment to add, because the nomenclature here is a little confusing (someone please correct me if I'm wrong...):
The Olvidado starts in Bilbao, while the Viejo starts in Pamplona. At Aguilar de Campoo the two ways meet and the Viejo/Olvidado continue as a single route to either Ponferrada or Villafranca del Bierzo.
Both ways are marked - from Pamplona and from Bilbao - but I believe by different groups.
Yes, I noticed that they start as two different caminos and come together at Aguilar - p? of the oh, so detailed 53 p. document which caminka published and which I have just printed out for easy reference. The pleasure of planning! Will see what comes off it all! It is a long way off.....
Yes! See this post:ender is writing a new guide for the whole of olvidado.
Hola, soy Ender.
De momento no esta señalizado el camino Olvidado desde Pamplona y no tengo pensado señalizarlo.
Si lo esta desde Bilbao.
Hace 2 semanas terminé la señalización por Burgos.
El año pasado termine la señalización de toda la parte de León con sus variantes.
Puedo dejaros una pequeña guía que estoy elaborando pero que aún no esta finalizada.
Seguro que os a servir para hacer este precioso camino.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WOYKMhxISI9TOBUhuJAhS4uWTob7N161
Esto es de la parte Leonesa.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Tgoqwis3kTsT-nsB-75qVqieu5lfzkx4
Desde Boñar hay dos variantes una por el valle que nos lleva a La Robla y otra por la montaña que pasa por Vegacervera, el bosque del faedo, los calderones en piedrasechas, lugares especialmente bonitos.
Recomiendo encarecidamente la variante de Vegacervera.
Un saludo a todos y buen camino
Now this is the third time I have tried to round up the loose details of this Viejo Camino from the Pamplona start.
With some luck I will take that route some fine day.
Today it was Caminka´s route plan thart gave me new hope !
Thanks...
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