- Time of past OR future Camino
- Yearly and Various 2014-2019
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I also note that many of those who praise the other caminos to Santiago in Spain and the Valcarlos route have already walked the Camino Frances and the Napoleon route.
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm reacting to...They may also share my irritation when someone then asks them on their arrival in Santiago on one of the less-popular routes if they intend to walk "the real Camino" sometime
Maybe. I've never walked the Napoleon Route, and don't really want to at this point.I also note that many of those who praise the other caminos to Santiago in Spain and the Valcarlos route have already walked the Camino Frances and the Napoleon route.
Exactly. Hence the density of options - and the fact that clinging to one way as THE way is silly.if there's a track or a road with an origin that dates back to the Middle Ages, it's extremely likely that a pilgrim had walked on it.
A quote from about 1993:Exactly. Hence the density of options - and the fact that clinging to one way as THE way is silly.
But not that it is the only authentic way to Santiago, just that it is said to be the best preserved. Which is interesting, because much of the actual old road has been taken over by the autovia or other secondary roads - naturally. The route was a major road then, and still is for a lot of the way.has preserved the most complete material registry of all Christian pilgrimage routes
I don't hate the Frances - in fact I am very fond of it. And like you, Fleur (and I assume many others), walking it gave me the confidence to branch out. But it's just sad to read someone's disappointment that they can't walk the 'real' camino because they can't start in SJPP or because they can't go over the Napoleon route, or that it's not as they imagined.In defence of the Camino Frances I think that experience gave me the confidence to walk some lesser known routes.
Well, I have to admit you're absolutely right, at least about the popularity.One thing I think it's safe to say is that without the huge popularity of the Camino Frances and the mythology that has built up around it we wouldn't have so many other routes being rejuvenated or indeed this lovely forum of ours.
And there aren't even all of the Spanish and Portugues Camin(h)os on this mapI'm ranting. Please forgive me, but here goes - I would have loved to have known all this, right from the start:
"The Camino" has been hyped as one thing:
The True and Only "Whole" Camino starts in St Jean Pied de Port and goes over (only) the Napoleon Route and from there on the Camino Frances to Santiago. And along the way, you will have the complete "camino experience" complete with families, angels, epiphanies, and magical provision.
This mythology bugs a lot of people, and for good reason - it's a modern story, driven by fiction and Hollywood.
Because of it, the Frances is becoming increasingly crowded, each new pilgrim blindly following the stories about the 'true way.'
Because of it, every year there are some people who endanger themselves and rescuers by insisting on illegally taking the napoleon Route in the winter and getting into trouble - because it is the 'real' path.
And because of it, the actual culture of pilgrimage, and of supporting pilgrims is getting overwhelmed by commercialism.
If you have never walked, don't be fooled by the hype and misinformation.
The camino is so much deeper, grittier, more challenging, and three-dimensional than those stories tell.
And there are a huge number of ways to walk if you want to end up in Santiago, each of which is a whole legitimate camino in and of itself. And some of which predate the Frances by a long time.
So if you seek a genuinely quiet and contemplative walk, there are many options, if you have the courage to not blindly follow the crowd. To inspire, here's a wonderful map that @wisepilgrim made, and that @ivar sells in the Forum Store - and that's just in Spain. The entire rest of Europe is equally covered by camino cobwebs.
View attachment 53670
Happy planning and buen caminos, Peregrinas and Peregrinos!
Next we need a Camino that circumnavigates Spain (and maybe Portugal), traveling along shorelines and borders.
However, beginning in the 12th century (1100s) , the majority of pilgrims coming from the north transited the Pyrenees at the Napoleon Pass. They first had to stop at the village / town of St. Jean Pied de Port to rest, recover, outfit and prepare themselves for the arduous journey ahead.
This is why the folks in St. Jean Pied de Port proudly tell pilgrims that they have been outfitting and sending pilgrims off to Santiago de Compostela for more than 1,100 years... because they have. Their experience sending off pilgrims started in the late 800's they have been at it ever since.
Not for pilgrims as these are more for serious hikers or backpackers are the GR trails that follow the Pyrenees from ocean to sea, the GR 10 in France and the GR 11 in Spain.Next we need a Camino that circumnavigates Spain (and maybe Portugal), traveling along shorelines and borders.
So pilgrims went both routes. Of course they did. There were no arrows and they simply followed local advice based on weather and reports of wolves and bandits.In the Codex Calixtinus (12th century) the crossing of the Pyrenees is described as follows:
"There, in that Basque Country, the road of Saint-Jacques joins onto a very high mountain, called the “passage of Cize” (…). Its immense height makes those who mount it think that they touch the canopy of heaven (…). Near this mountain, to the north, is a valley called “Valcarlos”. Pilgrims who go through this valley (…) do not have to climb the mountain."
Yes, but (as I understand it, someone please correct me if I am wrong) only once the Reconquista allowed that. Initially pilgrims would have traveled (vaguely) along the Norte/Primativo corridor, and then as it became possible along the Vasco Interior and the Olvidado - and only later as it became possible the easier way across the meseta.MOST, but certainly not all of the pilgrims coming from more northern parts of Europe, over the Pyrenees had to make their way over those mountains to get into the then Kingdoms of Asturias Navarre, or Catalonia, and thence journey to venerate the relics at (what would become) Santiago de Compostela. To do so, they typically, had to avail themselves of four known passes through or around the Pyrenees mountains.
As I understand it is actually older - a Roman trade route linking the mines of As Medulas with the trading routes and the sea. On this site, you can put ancient and modern road maps side by side and compare. (Warning - this site is a dangerous rabbit hole, so open only if you have resolve to stay focused.)For example, the Camino Invierno from Ponferrada, has been around for hundreds of years, but does not date from medieval times.
That would have been a seriously cute trick - !Parenthetically, Francis arrived in Santiago in 2014.
Like the Ruta Teresiana - others?nd there aren't even all of the Spanish and Portugues Camin(h)os on this map
Well, I have to admit you're absolutely right, at least about the popularity.
But the mythology? Pass.
When people talk about things that happened in a certain movie (or book) as if they were real, I tend to think things which are neither kind nor useful, but I can't help it.
Not for pilgrims as these are more for serious hikers or backpackers are the GR trails that follow the Pyrenees from ocean to sea, the GR 10 in France and the GR 11 in Spain.
Check out https://www.gr-infos.com/gr-en.htmHow would I find out about these GR trails?
I have the (unfortunately still unused) book Through the Spanish Pyrenees by Paul LuciaHow would I find out about these GR trails?
This quite possibly is the most elitist and didactic thread I have ever observed on this forum.
I was gonna dismiss Martin Sheen and do as a Great American Forrest Gump did using the words of the song immortalized by AWESOME (GO FLYERS!) Kate Smith ("From Sea to Shining Sea") and chart a new route from (within reasons mainland only) easternmost point in Russia to Finisterre but Google decided to have none of it
View attachment 53700
Kinda sucky... I really wanted to see the possibility of scaling The Urals before even worrying about the Pyrenees🏔🏔⛰
Only?!It took four months to cover the distance.
This quite possibly is the most elitist and didactic thread I have ever observed on this forum.
Once on the Camino Frances, he continued on to Santiago de Compostela. I was not there the day he arrived. But staff who processed his Compostela and Distance Certificates told me that he covered some 4,100 km. It took four months to cover the distance.
That was my thought.I can’t be the only one that’s done the arithmetic... assuming the maximum 123 days in 4 months (& zero rest days), he walked an average of 33.3 km per day!
Are you talking about Werner van Zuylen? 52 years old, a banker, he started on 15 July 2013 in Moscow and arrived on 15 December 2013 in Compostela. So not much going on in the way of flow on the CF at that time of the year. Passionate about history and fascinated by the language and culture of the largest country in the world which he had visited in 1981 for the first time. I listened into a talk he gave. I don't think he mentions the word pilgrim or pilgrimage once but he talks about the great impact of walking for such a long time through these vast regions. I could relate immediately, much more than to the talk about the camino experience, complete with families, angels, epiphanies, and magical provision. (I really love your description, @VNwalkingOnly?! Can you imagine the shock of reaching PlR after all that and merging with the CF flow?
This captures our human complexity so beautifully. Thank you, Katharina."Par ailleurs, on rencontre l'homme dans tout son paradoxe, l'homme capable de fraternité mais aussi habité de haines ancestrales."
Ohmyohmy...I was going to suggest that we formally convene the first official meeting of the GOP......Grumpy Old Pilgrims association
Amen.The tolerance shown by more experienced pilgrims to a blithering, blathering, nervous, over enthusiastic, over planned middle aged woman/lemming starting out on her first long distance pilgrimage in SJPP 10 years ago this April is something I'll always grateful for, remember and hold in my heart.
He wrote a book, if you can read French...no doubt the feet are in there someplace.. I wonder how were his feet.
II can’t be the only one that’s done the arithmetic... assuming the maximum 123 days in 4 months (& zero rest days), he walked an average of 33.3 km per day!
Thanks, I’ll try and get it!He wrote a book, if you can read French...no doubt the feet are in there someplace.
It looks like a wonderful read.
"A pied, de Moscou à Compostelle", Werner van Zuylen, éd. Racine, 198 pages, 19,95 EUR.
....well I did say it was aspirational but I also aspire to lose weight....
Thank you Tom but, sorry, I really hated reading "Napoleon Pass" when you were talking about pre-1800 events. I'm thrilled to read the rest of what you wrote ( but please change typo 2014 to 1214). Anyway I decided to see what the Codex Calixtinus called the pass. What I found was "portuum Ciserae" which Google translated for me as "port of cider" (but who knows how good that is). Note that the SJPdP Pilgrims Office hands out a map of the area titled "Les Ports de Cize".
The Beilari website says:
Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port has been an important stop before the crossing of the Pyrenees for centuries. "Pied-de-Port” means: “at the foot of the pass”. This region itself is called the Cize.
In the Codex Calixtinus (12th century) the crossing of the Pyrenees is described as follows:
"There, in that Basque Country, the road of Saint-Jacques joins onto a very high mountain, called the “passage of Cize” (…). Its immense height makes those who mount it think that they touch the canopy of heaven (…). Near this mountain, to the north, is a valley called “Valcarlos”. Pilgrims who go through this valley (…) do not have to climb the mountain."
I haven't yet tried to find the above in the codex.
Some links:
https://www.beilari.info/en/crossing-pyrenees
Codex in Latin (and notes in French): http://www.archive.org/stream/lecodexdesaintj00jamegoog/lecodexdesaintj00jamegoog_djvu.txt
Codex in English: https://sites.google.com/site/caminodesantiagoproject/chapter-ii-the-stages-of-the-camino
Tom, the only flaw I saw was the typo. The name of the pass was an author's choice from a few names to choose. You picked one that I hadn't seen often and, at the moment, caused me to wonder about about what the pass was known as pre-Napoleon. Someday I'll have to check up on the cider/cize thing but that will be another day.I made the necessary edits to correct my earlier contribution. Thank you for pointing out the flaws.
Unfortunately walking makes me hungry & thirsty (& I admit the guilt free "well I've walked 20-30km so I've earned it" logic kicks in big time!) & the food on all the Jakobwegs, Chemin & Camino's is so delicious that I generally come back at just below the weight I set off at. I also actually witnessed a pilgrim's trousers falling off them as they walked along due to pilgrimage weight loss- couldn't face that!Then I can thoroughly recommend the "Via Francigena Plan". 66 days from Canterbury to Rome. 33 pounds lost during the trip. Half a pound per day
caused me to wonder about about what the pass was known as pre-Napoleon. Someday I'll have to check up on the cider/cize thing but that will be another day.
Ditto.I love your posts and greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into them.
Thank you @Kathar1na. Just a few minutes ago I was getting out of the shower and thought "I bet Katharina is going to look up Cize for me" (showers clean the dirt from my brain too.) What I said for Tom goes for you too "I love your posts and greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into them."Cize is the name of the region. Etymology is uncertain, hence open to speculation.
Me too; Peg's. In an albergue. Fortunately for her modesty almost everyone had already left.I also actually witnessed a pilgrim's trousers falling off them as they walked along due to pilgrimage weight loss- couldn't face that!
Odessa happens to be my City of birth. So, IIRC about 2 weeks ago I did the Google on the "Camino Odessa"In 2016, he walked from London to Odessa in the Ukraine: https://lonode.eu/ . ... London to Odessa is about 3000 km. Early May to early August. So 3 months for 3000 km London to Odessa
I cannot say that I experienced the same (pants falling off that is) but when my son and I were done Camino Inca it was 'close'.Me too; Peg's. In an albergue. Fortunately for her modesty almost everyone had already left.
And in a way "a historical tid-bit"Embarrassment is part of being human. It’s all good.
Yep, walking makes me hungry too! And how!Unfortunately walking makes me hungry & thirsty (& I admit the guilt free "well I've walked 20-30km so I've earned it" logic kicks in big time!) & the food on all the Jakobwegs, Chemin & Camino's is so delicious that I generally come back at just below the weight I set off at. I also actually witnessed a pilgrim's trousers falling off them as they walked along due to pilgrimage weight loss- couldn't face that!
. I have never watched the Hollywood movie or whatever set off the mass pilgrimages, so I don't know about the sudden attraction.
But, @BradypusTrue. And those of us who have walked the Camino Frances and one or more of the less-walked routes have personal experience on which to base a comparison. Some of us who advocate alternative routes may be looking for things that we found very special about that Camino Frances journey but which are almost impossible to recapture in the three-ring-circus which the Frances has now become. They may also share my irritation when someone then asks them on completion of their journey if they intend to walk "the real Camino" sometime
I just find a question like this hilarious. Ignorance and rudeness together can be so funny.
...is made up of fine and contemplative people, with a lot worth sharingthis very fine and contemplative thread,
I tend to include Shirley and Paolo in having a hand creating a Hollywood effect...especially Shirley. And she wrote that book ages before the movie...The effect of "The Way" on the Caminos is often greatly exaggerated.
Hahahaha...yes. It'd be hard not to chuckle when hearing that.A while back someone asked "How do I get to the start of the Camino?" without saying which Camino or where they were travelling from. When I asked them to be more specific the answer was "the one that goes to Santiago"
What, Alwyn, you didn't take the shortcut through the Red Sea and the Suez Canal? Ah, you must be a real pilgrim!I then added "And yes I swam here. Across the Tasman Sea and Indian Ocean, around the bottom of Africa and up the west coast, and landed at Biaritz (or Calais). " I would try to keep a poker face. Until I saw the twinkle in their eyes.
Next time.@VNwalking , thanks for the prompt. I should have thought of that, having an uncle buried in the Port Said Military Cemetery (Diphtheria, January 1917).
I forgot to include supercilious as well in a description of this thread.Thank you for appreciating the effort that goes into providing serious content.
I forgot to include supercilious as well in a description of this thread.
Nonetheless, I will continue to blindly follow the crowd, on wards...on wards towards the cliffs, and then plummeting to cruel jagged rocks below. Too lacking in courage to deviate from the path.
but still enjoying myself along the Way, Camino Frances...perhaps hanging with a few of the same people for a while. A family of sorts, but always eventually moving on and walking alone again. Maybe experiencing a Camino angel, whatever that may be.
Maybe I can be that angel. Was I an angel when I carried a young peregrina's pack for her for a day after she injured her knee? I did not think of myself as one. Just thought I was doing the right thing. Maybe she thought of me as one? I have no idea. I never saw her again after that. Or the time an older pilgrim passed out on the path during a very hot day, falling on top of his wife, her yelling for help. I thought I was the only one around, but suddenly within a moment, there were several of us. Removing his boots and pack. Getting him to shade. One pilgrim had an electrolyte pack and a bottle of water for him. The pilgrim came to, embarrassed but grateful and we stayed with him until he was up and around again, got him to eat a banana and an energy bar and took our advice to taxi in the remaining 10 km's and we waited with him, and then as suddenly as it started, it was over and everybody was back walking and dispersed. Where did they come from so quickly. Kinda magical, and mind you I am no mystical magical, overly philosophical guy. More Philistine than philosopher.
As far as epiphanies go, I had one way before I ever walked the Camino.
@AlwynWellington The grandfather I am named after died in the sinking of the Lancastria during the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force in WW2. He is buried in the military cemetery in the small coastal town of Pornic near Nantes. An important factor in choosing my route when I walked from my home in Wales to SJPDP. Though I cheated and took a ferry for the wet salty part@VNwalking , thanks for the prompt. I should have thought of that, having an uncle buried in the Port Said Military Cemetery (Diphtheria, January 1917).
I tend to include Shirley and Paolo in having a hand creating a Hollywood effect...especially Shirley. And she wrote that book ages before the movie...
Since I wasn't there what do I know? Approximately nothing.Don Elias published his guide in 1984. Senhor Coelho published his very strange book in 1987. So are you suggesting there was just a three-year golden age before the Tinseltown rot set in?
Uh-huh.What a ray of sunshine you are this morning @VNwalking!
So - IYHO - is it Co-el-LO or Co-el-HO?
Rome is south of Assisi.Very significantly, in 1213/14, Francis of Assisi (still alive then and not yet a saint), accompanied by two of his followers, departed Assisi, walked north to Rome
oh! such a lovely story, such a moving experience! Of this we are made, formed, learn to be gentle and try to form the future generation!@AlwynWellington The grandfather I am named after died in the sinking of the Lancastria during the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force in WW2. He is buried in the military cemetery in the small coastal town of Pornic near Nantes. An important factor in choosing my route when I walked from my home in Wales to SJPDP. Though I cheated and took a ferry for the wet salty partHaving breakfast in a cafe at a supermarket on the edge of town a man spotted my rucksack and walked over to ask me where I was walking to. He also asked why I chose to pass through such an out-of-the-way spot. When I mentioned the connection with my grandfather he walked over to the two other occupied tables and spoke quietly with the people there. Then every customer in the place stood, walked over to me and shook my hand. A very moving experience.
An afterthought...or rather, an after-question, because I'm just curious...Les ports de Cize are the mountain passes of the region. It's not always clear which one(s) are meant. Roncevaux pass often denotes the Ibañeta pass.
It is completely amazing how much can change in a few generations.The issue for mounted units in Egypt wanting to engage with an enemy in Jordan and Palestine was getting water for horses across the Sinai.
Interesting that Saint Jean Pied de Port is not even on this map.To some extend returning it to the topic - here is a map I found on Wiki
View attachment 53836
I don't think that I am adding anything new except in a way confirming that one can start on the Camino anywhere within Continental Europe (and by extension even Asia) and just walk to SdC however long it would take them
VN, I could not agree with you more. Having viewed the de lana camino,I wondered why more people did not walk it. I am always surprized when almost everyone suggests the frances as a must-do for a person's first camino. I thought any camino would make a good first camino(maybe I am just naive). I walked the primitivo and loved it! Would everyone-who knows. This fall I am walking from Pau to Oviedo(with small bus ride to Leon),because I like mountains. I find nothing about the frances appealing,but of course that is only my opinion. Others are free to do what they want,but as the frances seems to have reached capacity,maybe other caminos could be looked at. Whichever one chooses,the outcome will usually be very good. And most importantly,as always-BUEN CAMINO.I'm ranting. Please forgive me, but here goes - I would have loved to have known all this, right from the start:
"The Camino" has been hyped as one thing:
The True and Only "Whole" Camino starts in St Jean Pied de Port and goes over (only) the Napoleon Route and from there on the Camino Frances to Santiago. And along the way, you will have the complete "camino experience" complete with families, angels, epiphanies, and magical provision.
This mythology bugs a lot of people, and for good reason - it's a modern story, driven by fiction and Hollywood.
Because of it, the Frances is becoming increasingly crowded, each new pilgrim blindly following the stories about the 'true way.'
Because of it, every year there are some people who endanger themselves and rescuers by insisting on illegally taking the napoleon Route in the winter and getting into trouble - because it is the 'real' path.
And because of it, the actual culture of pilgrimage, and of supporting pilgrims is getting overwhelmed by commercialism.
If you have never walked, don't be fooled by the hype and misinformation.
The camino is so much deeper, grittier, more challenging, and three-dimensional than those stories tell.
And there are a huge number of ways to walk if you want to end up in Santiago, each of which is a whole legitimate camino in and of itself. And some of which predate the Frances by a long time.
So if you seek a genuinely quiet and contemplative walk, there are many options, if you have the courage to not blindly follow the crowd. To inspire, here's a wonderful map that @wisepilgrim made, and that @ivar sells in the Forum Store - and that's just in Spain. The entire rest of Europe is equally covered by camino cobwebs.
View attachment 53670
Happy planning and buen caminos, Peregrinas and Peregrinos!
and bicigrinios like meI'm ranting. Please forgive me, but here goes - I would have loved to have known all this, right from the start:
"The Camino" has been hyped as one thing:
The True and Only "Whole" Camino starts in St Jean Pied de Port and goes over (only) the Napoleon Route and from there on the Camino Frances to Santiago. And along the way, you will have the complete "camino experience" complete with families, angels, epiphanies, and magical provision.
This mythology bugs a lot of people, and for good reason - it's a modern story, driven by fiction and Hollywood.
Because of it, the Frances is becoming increasingly crowded, each new pilgrim blindly following the stories about the 'true way.'
Because of it, every year there are some people who endanger themselves and rescuers by insisting on illegally taking the napoleon Route in the winter and getting into trouble - because it is the 'real' path.
And because of it, the actual culture of pilgrimage, and of supporting pilgrims is getting overwhelmed by commercialism.
If you have never walked, don't be fooled by the hype and misinformation.
The camino is so much deeper, grittier, more challenging, and three-dimensional than those stories tell.
And there are a huge number of ways to walk if you want to end up in Santiago, each of which is a whole legitimate camino in and of itself. And some of which predate the Frances by a long time.
So if you seek a genuinely quiet and contemplative walk, there are many options, if you have the courage to not blindly follow the crowd. To inspire, here's a wonderful map that @wisepilgrim made, and that @ivar sells in the Forum Store - and that's just in Spain. The entire rest of Europe is equally covered by camino cobwebs.
View attachment 53670
Happy planning and buen caminos, Peregrinas and Peregrinos!
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