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That’s asking for each albergue owner to have the internet resources to log on to a system every time a bed is taken up… perhaps as many as 2 dozen or more times in a day. Who will pay for that overhead and that time?Hi everyone! When i walked the camino in the summer, I think I booked a place to stay maybe 15%-20% of the time. In the second half of it, I was walking with someone who booked pretty much for every night. Here's the thing. If no one booked ahead, there would be less panic to get there but I know that will never happen. Instead there is a bed race each day, leading to blisters.I did lose that race one day and slept out under a porch with just a sleeping bag liner, but generally speaking it is safe enough to leave it to providence. What if they had a system where the number of vacancies in each town could be displayed either on a website, app or on an entrance sign, a bit like the parking vacancy signs, so that people didn't need to panic so much. I notice a lot of albergues simply only had phone bookings and no internet bookings, so maybe this is a pie in the sky suggestion. However, it would be a nice if there was less panic amongst the pilgrims, where each races the other to get a bed first. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one...
None of that is necessary, all an albergue would need to do is be part of a simple app on their phone at zero cost.. In return for that, everyone will benefit from the peace of mind that they will know which albergue to visit for a bed, everyone is happy. It will make it easier for some albergues to actually keep their prices low by maximising occupancy. "Pilgrims like the simplicity of the system as it is." What? They'd prefer to make 7 phonecalls when a simple app could save them all that the bother? The person who walked with me rang on average 4-8 calls per day to make a booking: that's not efficient or simple. Most people use apps nowadays, it is just an easy way of making life that bit easier and simpler.That’s asking for each albergue owner to have the internet resources to log on to a system every time a bed is taken up… perhaps as many as 2 dozen or more times in a day. Who will pay for that overhead and that time?
Pilgrims like the simplicity of the system as it is, in no small part because of the lowered costs. Many of us remind each other to be grateful for the presence of a comfortable bed, showers and other indoor conveniences, perhaps even a breakfast thrown in… all for 10-12 euros!!!
Start adding on things, like computer savvy, a computer network and ISP, a software platform and *time on task*…. Surely the prices will have to jump, and yet the end product: bed, shower, breakfast won’t really change.
As you noted, the overwhelming majority are happy to do without the bookings. Getting 100% of the people to pay for what only 1/5th want… it’s not a “value added” proposition.
The spreading anxiety of this is a potential positive feedback loop that can be stopped without an app. If people don't buy into the fear, and just walk - perhaps booking, perhaps stopping between Brierley stages, for example - the collective level of fear will be kept in check.Instead there is a bed race each day, leading to blisters
We think anxiety arises because of limited numbers of beds for the number of pilgrims. But anxiety arises because of our relationship to those beds. Because we have a low tolerance for not having everything work out the way we want, and a lack of flexibility about plans.Panic is what you create yourself .
Not everything in life needs/ can be controlled.
[...] the Camino is a metaphor for life itself : the good , the bad & the ugly.
My piece of mind comes from other sources...
There is already a system in place that works. Call a taxi, the taxi calls ahead to confirm space. Worked for me.Hi everyone! When i walked the camino in the summer, I think I booked a place to stay maybe 15%-20% of the time. In the second half of it, I was walking with someone who booked pretty much for every night. Here's the thing. If no one booked ahead, there would be less panic to get there but I know that will never happen. Instead there is a bed race each day, leading to blisters.I did lose that race one day and slept out under a porch with just a sleeping bag liner, but generally speaking it is safe enough to leave it to providence. What if they had a system where the number of vacancies in each town could be displayed either on a website, app or on an entrance sign, a bit like the parking vacancy signs, so that people didn't need to panic so much. I notice a lot of albergues simply only had phone bookings and no internet bookings, so maybe this is a pie in the sky suggestion. However, it would be a nice if there was less panic amongst the pilgrims, where each races the other to get a bed first. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one...
Complicate a system? Apps allow you to know where there is a vacancy in a glance. Ringing a dozen numbers, over several hours is way more complicated, tedious and pointless. My walking companion did that. Personally, I just mostly didn't bother to ring ahead as it was too much hassle. I had to sleep outdoors one night.Wow! Why complicate a system that has worked for decades, just walk and find a bed
Centuries!Wow! Why complicate a system that has worked for decades, just walk and find a bed
I think most people think things happen on the camino by magic but under the surface most things are actually automated. All of the supplies for example that you depended on like bed liners, food, drinks were there because behind the scenes goods are being automatically ordered to replenish what has been used. Do you think no one used the maps on their phones to see how far was left on their journey? I bet 99% of the pilgrims did and many times a day. They used their phones to see if albergues had pools. They used them to read the reviews and compare the prices. The taxis that magically come to collect bags and bring them to the next albergues have automated systems in place. The pilgrims who have an alarm to automatically wake them in the morning. The numerous automated coffee machines and vending machines that saved many a person stuck when shops weren't open. I was saved by one such vending machine when I ran out of water. Most people nowadays use the internet to plan their camino and without it likely it wouldn't happen: that's entirely automated. Almost everything on the camino is automated, the beauty of it is that nobody notices because it does what it needs to do and makes itself invisible to the eye. Like the fact that we are using the internet right now, built on automated internet protocols.I hope there never comes a day where anything is automated on the Camino. I think a lot of us go there for the decades-old simplicity of just living and relying on the goodness of the universe. Whenever I haven’t found a bed, something always worked out. That’s the beauty of the Camino. I sincerely hope it doesn’t grow to have automated things. It defeats the faith in the goodwill of the people you meet along the way in any such anxiety-producing situations
That's exactly the problem I saw for 4 weeks solid. It is a system that is dysfunctional.I'm currently in Leon, have stayed primarily in Alburques. One of the things I have witnessed is pilgrims making multiple reservations for the same night. One for the location they hope to get to, one for a location a bit closer and perhaps one for a bit farther if they feel like going on. So one group of three I witnessed doing this had removed the availability of 9 beds. I truly don't see what purpose reservations are serving.
How's the weather out there these days? I was there July-August.I'm currently in Leon, have stayed primarily in Alburques. One of the things I have witnessed is pilgrims making multiple reservations for the same night. One for the location they hope to get to, one for a location a bit closer and perhaps one for a bit farther if they feel like going on. So one group of three I witnessed doing this had removed the availability of 9 beds. I truly don't see what purpose reservations are serving.
You took taxis? I walked.There is already a system in place that works. Call a taxi, the taxi calls ahead to confirm space. Worked for me.
Weather has been fantastic. A few days of rain, cool mornings with pleasant to warm afternoons.How's the weather out there these days? I was there July-August.
I walked with three family members one year and finding four beds at once posed additional problems, so we eventually started emailing ahead the morning of, which worked well. We were always told we had to arrive by 5pm or we'd lose the beds...sounded fair to me.Wow! Why complicate a system that has worked for decades, just walk and find a bed
Good for you being an outdoor expedition owner, but I doubt most women walking the Camino if they are in the age range of 60-80 would be too keen on winging it in a bivy bag on a rainy night.I am ok sleeping on a porch, terrace or most anything in a bivi bag which weighs sod all anyway
but then that’s sort of my job being an outdoor expedition company owner.
live thought about it for next year, but tbh, I find the rhythm in the trip itself rather than a pre done timetable. I’m good to just wing it really
Some of us like to just walk and find a bed when we are ready rather than to book ahead. Booking ahead loses some of the freedom or spontaneity of the pilgrimage.Hi everyone! When i walked the camino in the summer, I think I booked a place to stay maybe 15%-20% of the time. In the second half of it, I was walking with someone who booked pretty much for every night. Here's the thing. If no one booked ahead, there would be less panic to get there but I know that will never happen. Instead there is a bed race each day, leading to blisters.I did lose that race one day and slept out under a porch with just a sleeping bag liner, but generally speaking it is safe enough to leave it to providence. What if they had a system where the number of vacancies in each town could be displayed either on a website, app or on an entrance sign, a bit like the parking vacancy signs, so that people didn't need to panic so much. I notice a lot of albergues simply only had phone bookings and no internet bookings, so maybe this is a pie in the sky suggestion. However, it would be a nice if there was less panic amongst the pilgrims, where each races the other to get a bed first. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one...
then don’t ….Good for you being an outdoor expedition owner, but I doubt most women walking the Camino if they are in the age range of 60-80 would be too keen on winging it in a bivy bag on a rainy night.
I was more responding to being an older woman as there are many on this forum, not particularly speaking to men of any age. I meant nothing personal to you, so I apologize that you were offended by my post.then don’t ….
I wasn’t trying to speak for everyone on the camino. I was actually referencing the post. Nor did you mention the points on that around many of the same age range not being au fait or having apps in the first place and realistically how that would be updated by Albergues.
plus, I was giving a personal view on timetabled itinerarie. My own view and preference.
tbh, doesn’t matter what you say here, somebody wants to jump on it.
i was commenting on the OP and referenced it, not solely on a subset of a comment from a response to it
you also (wrongly) assume I don’t fall in the age range you quoted
I’d be happy to meet you and I’d also be the first to offer what support I could were you to feel in danger.I was more responding to being an older woman as there are many on this forum, not particularly speaking to men of any age. I meant nothing personal personal to you, so I apologize that you were offended by my post.
A number of us, all strangers, arrive at an alburge late in the afternoon, around 4 PM. Walking another 5k to another possible full alburge? A taxi is called. Driver does a head count and calls ahead. There is about 10 of us and few others are trickling in. He knows of a hotel that has a top floor that is set up for tour group pilgrims but doesn't currently have a tour. Two euros each for the taxi and one of the best alburges I've stayed at. We're happy, the taxi driver fills three cabs so he's happy, the hotel is happy. The hotel was full of sport car enthusiasts. Parking lot with Porsche, Ferrari, etc. Dinner and drinks later was a blast.You took taxis? I walked.
Ok, now think about this for a momentI have gone on countless long haul adventures over the past 10 years and I had hoped I'd find likeminded free spirits on here. I can't for the life of me understand how people who go on long walks can be so close minded and lacking in freespirtedness. It seems caminos make people averse to change. I will leave this forum for
This is even less likely to happen, since it involves a ton of cooperation between public and private businesses, not to mention recruiting all of the volunteers!My suggestion: each Camino town creates a roster of volunteers who have a mobile phone. The number is on gronze. Pilgrims call this number and the volunteer tells them what hostels have space and makes a booking for them. If there are no beds, then they get info about where they might find one.
Ive done both, just 'winged it', stopping when I felt like it, but the last time I took my coeliac husband and our grandson, and for that one I booked ahead a day or so in advance. I booked one place per night, and we always turned up though so never wasted a bed that could be used for someone else. I prefer not to plan my Caminos as much, but it turns out my husband isnt very intrepid.Complicate a system? Apps allow you to know where there is a vacancy in a glance. Ringing a dozen numbers, over several hours is way more complicated, tedious and pointless. My walking companion did that. Personally, I just mostly didn't bother to ring ahead as it was too much hassle. I had to sleep outdoors one night.
As an aside, I am only on this channel a few weeks and I have grown to dislike immensely the conservative, kneejerk reaction to any suggestions to make caminos run a bit more smoothly.
I have gone on countless long haul adventures over the past 10 years and I had hoped I'd find likeminded free spirits on here. I can't for the life of me understand how people who go on long walks can be so close minded and lacking in freespirtedness. It seems caminos make people averse to change. I will leave this forum for good this week.
And maybe I was lucky, but when some places were full the owners directed me to another that had room, some even called for me.IMO reservations do not impact those who don’t want to make them. Some albergues don’t take reservations. Some do. Some fill up early others don’t. Even if no one took reservations you could still find yourself without a bed at the end of your desired walking distance so the reservations don’t impact your final result in the least. You have many options: stop when you see a place you like that’s open. Walk as far as you want to/are able, and if no bed taxi somewhere. Pair up with others and get a pricey hotel room (usually available). Walk even if tired—good for the soul.
Walking further doesn’t give you blisters, wrong socks, shoes, or not changing wet socks can though. I walked many 35-55 km days and no blisters.
ThisI thought it rude of people not to notify the place.
Only because I had read about this in the past, I requested help from the man in charge of the Dutch muni albergue in Monjardin because it was full when we arrived. After three different phone calls, he was finally able to secure us a room in a new albergue in Luquin, an additional kilometer further away. We were very grateful.And maybe I was lucky, but when some places were full the owners directed me to another that had room, some even called for me.
This happened to me in Puente la Reina. I can't remember which albergue was full, but the hospitalera called Albergue Estrella Guía, which was a wonderful place!And maybe I was lucky, but when some places were full the owners directed me to another that had room, some even called for me.
Absolutely!Thistimes a thousand. Karma needs to find every walker that wastes a reservation and punish them with bedbugs
I'm currently in Leon, have stayed primarily in Alburques. One of the things I have witnessed is pilgrims making multiple reservations for the same night. One for the location they hope to get to, one for a location a bit closer and perhaps one for a bit farther if they feel like going on. So one group of three I witnessed doing this had removed the availability of 9 beds. I truly don't see what purpose reservations are serving.
Oh no. I don't plan my Caminos. I don't check reviews or prices. I just go. I don't train. I just walk. Mighty slowly sometimes. Pools? Where? There is no planning ahead and strategizing for me (recognizing this isn't for everyone!). I prefer to let destiny guide me. I've walked it 6 times and never done anything like this. I just show up, no reservations. I move along if there isn't a bed or you have discussions with people in town, other pilgrims etc. A solution is always found. No over planning (which leads to anxiety and lack of magic). I know, I know, this isn't for everyone. But once I couldn't find a bed and a literal priest found me in the street and took me to this magical little tiny albergue where I slept in the office in the 'emergency pilgrim bed' and woke up to an albergue full of spirited pilgrims. Now that's the Camino. I don't look at the Camino as automated whatsoever. Not sure where you're staying, but the places I've stayed in over the course of 6 long Caminos did not have vending machines and sheets being dropped off in giant trucks (apart from maybe in Pamplona and Roncesvalles). Buen Camino!I think most people think things happen on the camino by magic but under the surface most things are actually automated. All of the supplies for example that you depended on like bed liners, food, drinks were there because behind the scenes goods are being automatically ordered to replenish what has been used. Do you think no one used the maps on their phones to see how far was left on their journey? I bet 99% of the pilgrims did and many times a day. They used their phones to see if albergues had pools. They used them to read the reviews and compare the prices. The taxis that magically come to collect bags and bring them to the next albergues have automated systems in place. The pilgrims who have an alarm to automatically wake them in the morning. The numerous automated coffee machines and vending machines that saved many a person stuck when shops weren't open. I was saved by one such vending machine when I ran out of water. Most people nowadays use the internet to plan their camino and without it likely it wouldn't happen: that's entirely automated. Almost everything on the camino is automated, the beauty of it is that nobody notices because it does what it needs to do and makes itself invisible to the eye. Like the fact that we are using the internet right now, built on automated internet protocols.
What an erudite, enlightened and easy to understand post. Things change rapidly in the tech world....Some thoughts…
First, my own situation is that I have to book a long time in advance because of medical issues. I’m very glad of places that take bookings and sadly have to avoid those that don’t. It’s something I have to accept; I can’t be proud about it. I hope one day to arrive at a point where I can enjoy the ‘other’ side of the Camino in albergues. Instead, I chat when I walk, or when I stop in cafes, and see familiar faces. It is what it is. So, given this context…
I suspect that the OP is a few years/a decade or two ahead of time. I was struck on my recent Camino by the many pilgrims booking ahead, and the ways in which they did this: mostly finding telephone numbers online, sometimes through Brierly or info sheets from Pilgrim Offices etc. And yet we’re also dealing with a system that only half enables this need for virtual/advance reservations. I found it intriguing that the Camino is both still outside of time—it still feels medieval, in the sense that many pilgrims can and do just wander from A to B to C until they figure something out for the night—whereas the Camino is also right here in the present, everyone networked, messages going up and down the route between pilgrims on WhatsApp, bookings flying through the ether. One foot in each camp. Maybe it has to be this way.
I think it’s probably shortsighted to imagine that the foot which is in the present won’t continue into future presents. This means that as tech improves—as networks become each year broader, firmer and more efficient, with supporting infrastructure and better accessibility—of course, the foot that is in this ‘present’ camp will step along, keeping in stride.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to imagine that, in the fairly near future, all payments will be digital. We’re close to this now. It also isn’t ridiculous to imagine a system that includes both digital payments and bookings at the same time: so, at the time of an albergue receiving a payment, the bed would be crossed off automatically through the same, standardised booking system (eg app and website). This means that the bed would be immediately registered on the network as occupied, and everyone looking at the system would see this live-updated availability. It’s also possible that individuals would be registered to that same system and that poor behaviour on their part (eg, making three reservations for one night) would be either impossible or registered on the system as negative. This would be similar to what Airbnb does in reviewing guests as well as hosts (personally, I find this part of Airbnb strange and not very nice, even though I also understand it. I shudder at the idea of it applying to pilgrims and hope this never happens, certainly in any non-anonymous way).
But it could be that rather than there being a system solely for pilgrims, there will be a dominant bigger travel system—eg Booking.com but more advanced, a few years down the line and even more developed than it is now—and that use of it will be very standard. Could, instead, a new app aimed solely at caminos, or at thru-hikes, act in this way? Money is the issue here. I think anyone creating such an app/website/networked service would need to make a deal with the digital payment system it used (eg Worldpay, PayPal; probably unlikely), charge a small percentage to albergues for processing payments and bookings (ugh… although charges for card payments already exist) and/or make its profits from app sales in the way that,eg, Wise Pilgrim does now. Ultimately, it would need to provide the simplest and quickest possible way for albergues and hostels to handle bookings and beds, otherwise it wouldn’t work.
I’m not saying that I think any of this is a good or bad idea, only that I suspect it will happen, if not very soon then at some point in the coming decades. This is because of the shift to digital: digital networks will continue to grow exponentially. This has pros and cons. It just is.
But I do also think that, along the Camino, belief in what the Camino stands for is so strong that the primitive, organic aspects will be preserved. Cash-only Albergues even though everything has gone digital. Off-network ones. Walk-Ins only. People who dig in harder and harder to compensate for digitisation pulling the other way. It will reach an equilibrium, eventually, but right now is a period of rapid change. I think we have to make of it the best we can, collectively, and try to adapt to the new in such a way that the new becomes as good a thing as possible, for everyone concerned.
This may happen but I doubt the near future. Too many people are unaware of the limitations of internet access in rural areas today (not decades ago, today). Personally I’ll be sad to see something like this occur as it will mean less $ for the small albergue owners just so things are super convenient to people walking (there’s a reason booking dot com rooms cost more, the magic of online isn’t free).I don’t think it’s ridiculous to imagine that, in the fairly near future, all payments will be digital. We’re close to this now. It also isn’t ridiculous to imagine a system that includes both digital payments and bookings at the same time: so, at the time of an albergue receiving a payment, the bed would be crossed off automatically through the same,
I have gone on countless long haul adventures ...
... people who go on long walks ...
Smallest_Sparrow,....
And again, reservations do not make things more stressful for those who don’t want to make them (as the OP stated) since others making reservations or not, they can easily end up in a place without a bed. Instead with this sort of system they will be eyes glued to their phone constantly calling out decreased bed availability to the unfortunates near them, all the way from zubiri
A system was in place for the Xunta albergues in Galicia at the beginning of the season this year, but apparently it was to glitchy and was abandoned.In Galicia an association is working on an app for booking albergues, it will be an own alternative for the very expensive booking dot com company. For sure, next year everyone will hear more about that.
A system like this might also have the advantage of showing the total beds available and not just the limited number available by the current booking sites which make accomodation looking fully booked.For those who are concerned about allocation of the costs of an albergue booking app, an analogy might be drawn to e.g. the Indian Railways (IR) app for reserving train tickets.
I know from extensive personal experience that seats on almost every IR train tend to completely sell out about two weeks after the tickets are made available for sale, i.e. about 2 1/2 months in advance of train departure. There is a very short window of opportunity to buy a ticket. The demand for seats is so extreme that IR even accepts tentative bookings for already-sold seats, for the fairly-numerous cases where the ticket-holder cancels his or her prepaid ticket in advance of train departure day.
IR train tickets are extremely economical, as are albergue beds.
Traditionally, IR train tickets were sold only in person in the stations. This involved multiple queues, each one having 50 to hundreds of people, all pressing hard forwards towards the ticket counter. Essentially, access to train tickets was allocated on a chaotic scramble system, with elbows sometimes in faces and so on. Very stressful, and hugely wasteful of peoples' time.
A few years ago, the IR information technology group developed an on-line ticket sales app. It was decided that all of the app's development, operational, and maintenance costs would be paid by the people reserving through the app. So, when buying a train ticket through that app, one pays the normal in-station ticket price and then one also pays a non-trivial on-line reservation fee. The train ticket itself is cancelable through the app, and refundable (less a trivial ticket cancelation fee), but the on-line reservation fee is entirely non-refundable. This system protects the folks who cannot reserve through the on-line app for whatever reason (no on-line device, or simply cannot afford the reservation fee, etc.). They can simply continue to buy tickets via the traditional in-station scramble system, with the exception that the length of the queues are now shorter due to other folks using the app. So, even though they do not use the app, they get the benefit of shorter in-station queues and less scramble stress.
I have, many times, used each of the two systems of purchasing IR train tickets. I very strongly prefer using the IR on-line reservation app instead of wasting hours and hours in a ticket queue.
Perhaps 100% of the costs of an albergue reservation app can be allocated to those reserving beds through the app. Importantly, the albergues would not pay for the app. Pilgrims choosing to reserve a bed through the app would pay in advance for both their bed and the non-refundable reservation fee. Pilgrims choosing not to use the app would not be paying for it, and would I think in most cases get the collateral benefit of experiencing less bed scramble stress.
Just a thought.
I prefer stopping at will/randomly for the night, but each year I walk I have been booking ahead more and more to eliminate stress, especially as I always walk with two to four family members or personal friends as we prefer not to split up.And to the posters that find booking ahead to be stressful - for many others, knowing that they have a guaranteed bed waiting for them each day relieves their stress and allows them to walk in a relaxed manner.
Yes, of course. The Indian Railways app shows the number of seats remaining for each ticket class for each train for each day. The same could and should be built into the notional albergue beds app.A system like this might also have the advantage of showing the total beds available and not just the limited number available by the current booking sites which make accomodation looking fully booked.
Just a thought.
An app isn't designed to solve these issues...its merely to show where there is availability and ease booking.People might want to take a look at this thread
He’s had few pilgrims while other places overflow. I think part of this bed issue is people wanting a specific albergue (the one with WiFi and new beds and electrical outlets everywhere!!!) or enough beds for their entire group!!! (rather than meet up somewhere to start) or have to “stop where everyone else stops” while walking in the middle August. I don’t think an app will solve these issues—the app won’t create more beds. People need to modify their behaviors and expectations
Exactly. It won’t fix the issue being complained about—people not getting a bed exactly when and where they want. It makes it easier to reserve a bed for those who refused to learn enough Spanish to do it by phone instead shifting the work onto the albergues—but if albergues want to take that on then great. I just don’t want to hear whining about albergues who choose not to participate. With any luck this app would remove any need for anyone to actually learn the language or interact with the people of SpainAn app isn't designed to solve these issues...its merely to show where there is availability and ease booking.
But there is no establishment in the world that will guarantee giving you a bed exactly when and where you want.Exactly. It won’t fix the issue being complained about—people not getting a bed exactly when and where they want. It makes it easier to reserve a bed for those who refused to learn enough Spanish to do it by phone instead shifting the work onto the albergues—but if albergues want to take that on then great. I just don’t want to hear whining about albergues who choose not to participate. With any luck this app would remove any need for anyone to actually learn the language or interact with the people of Spain, while allowing them to compulsively check their app all they way across Spain with building anxiety as the bed count drops minute by minute.
But the issue of the OP was not getting a room due to reservations. As I’ve said, reservations aren’t the issue, too many people wanting the EXACT same bed is. As has been said several times, the solution if you don’t want a reservation is simple: walk further, taxi, hotel with others, stop sooner than you’d like, don’t stop where everyone else does. All the app would do is make the albergues spend time updating bed availability and deal with whiney self entitled people waving a cell phone in their face saying “but it says you have rooms”. You could look at the app, see 20 beds available at your target town 45 min away and find them filled when you arrive. Then what? See all the things normal people already do.But there is no establishment in the world that will guarantee giving you a bed exactly when and where you want.
Once an establishment is full without a creative solution they cannot accommodate you. An app would tell you of availability or not.
This would only appear to be an expanded version of booking.com.
Nobody needs to use it if they don't want...it is only a supplementary suggestion for what it's worth and worthy of consideration.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one.
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