For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
I was shocked to see several walkers (I will not call them pilgrims) deliberately mocking the Cruz de Ferro with consciously ridiculous poses, competing with one another to see who could have the most mocking photo taken. I stood on the opposite side of the Cruz de Ferro from them to leave my stones, tributes to a family who had lost their daughter to cancer and to my doctor, who supports a chronically sick sister in a country without public medicare. It rained. I cried, from shock and dismay. It was a very emotional moment.
I attended mass at Barbadelo, just out of Sarria, at the little 12th cent. church of Santiago. This was the only time on my camino when I received the sacrament; as a non-Roman Catholic Christian I was attempting to respect Catholic regulations. It was a very emotional experience in this wonderful church.
I tend to agree with this in a general way, but if I saw someone openly disrespecting something they knew to be important to other cultures/people on the Camino, I wouldn't feel so poorly about judging them. Not for not caring about the Cruz, but for not caring that someone else cared.I resent other people making the judgement though!
There are different theories as to why the cross was erected there and when. Apparently it has enough religious significance to locals there that they built a chapel near it, and it is a "cross" which is a Christian religious symbol.Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
I totally agree. But people who have seen that movie and know nothing more than what they read in modern guidebooks and contemporary blogs will not be aware of the fact that the "history of people from around the world coming there to purposely leave a stone at the foot of the cross and say a prayer" is a very short history; it is a very modern custom and probably not more than a few decades old. I, too, wonder whether the behaviour described above was really a deliberate mocking or nothing more than customary celebrating after reaching the top of a mountain. In the Alps, most mountains have a cross at the top - I have never seen anyone bring a stone or say a prayer but quite a bit of frolicking after all the hard climbing. On a trail like the Camino Frances that is trodden by so many different cultures these days, a culture clash cannot be excluded.Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
Depends on my mood and events that day. More walker than pilgrim. I resent other people making the judgement though!
I don't think it really matters if it should or should not be seen as sacred, for religious reasons or otherwise. That's a different debate. What does matter is that it's clearly thought of (rightly or wrongly) as being among the MOST sacred and important spots for many peregrinos, and that should be more than enough reason for you to act respectful and with decorum at the site. If you think it shouldn't be thought of that way, discuss it with them that night at the allergue. If you think people shouldn't leave stones discuss that too (at an appropriate time and place) or else write a letter to the Spanish government. In the meantime be respectful to people who feel they are having an important moment. Don't make their moment about you--or your opinions (be they cultural or religious). Would you want someone choosing the moment you arrive at your most important location to be the moment that they disrespected your view of that location?Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
We pilgrim walkers judge youI am a walking pilgrim.
Question: Why would it be a 'judgement'?
it's a simple distinction of intention. not a statement of value, no?
As in hot water and cold water. If i were to prefer cold water for a certain purpose/intention, have i been judgemental against hot water?
There was a very long thread in December and January of 2014-2015 on this very topic. You might enjoy reading it.This is a topic / question that has provoked both interesting discussion and unpleasant behaviour on previous occasions. Members are asked to exercise themselves with care. (moderated smiley)
Me? I'm either a walking pilgrim or a pilgrimaging walker. And if I encountered the described behaviour I would probably be in trouble. Some things still erupt the violent temper I have spent most of my adult life learning to manage.
Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.
Hm ... what would be objectionable to 'pagan' ? would this momument any less sacred/important if it were deemed pagan? most christian holidays have pagan roots. people were pilgrims before there was christanity ...Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.
Just imagine the uproar when said upset walker realises all the stuff left at the foot of the monument is buldozed away periodically. (I get upset by the cost the community has to encurr to remove this stiff).
Recently read something from a person who was horrified that people walked on the rubble, until she did and discovered the items people left along with the rocks/stones: meaasags, teddy bears, what have yous. Yes, all these items that rot there, or fly away into the community as trash. Do we really need to drop off objects, things, to evoke a feeling, especially is someone elsés backyard?
Just remember, it has been sais that the size of the stone/rock you put at the base of the monument is supposed to be proportional to your sins. Still want to drop something off at the foot of this most likely peagan monument?
Both. I'm a pilgrim that chooses to travel via my feet (not counting the flights to Europe and the trains and automobiles to get to SJPdP). I walk to my goal, that being the cathedral in Santiago. There are others who do the Haj to Mecca via airplanes and motor vehicles. I'm no less, nor more a pilgrim than they are because of our methods. I'm certainly not the textbook pilgrim. Sometimes drink too much and get opinionated at communal dinners (yikes!), and have been too hung-over the next morning to walk far, but overall well behaved and appreciative of my opportunity to walk a pilgrimage while there are so many out there who desire so much to walk their pilgrimages, but cannot.
Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.
Just imagine the uproar when said upset walker realises all the stuff left at the foot of the monument is buldozed away periodically. (I get upset by the cost the community has to encurr to remove this stiff).
Recently read something from a person who was horrified that people walked on the rubble, until she did and discovered the items people left along with the rocks/stones: meaasags, teddy bears, what have yous. Yes, all these items that rot there, or fly away into the community as trash. Do we really need to drop off objects, things, to evoke a feeling, especially is someone elsés backyard?
Just remember, it has been sais that the size of the stone/rock you put at the base of the monument is supposed to be proportional to your sins. Still want to drop something off at the foot of this most likely peagan monument?
Beautifully explained. I wish I could say that myself!!!You make some interesting points whariwharangi.
People do have fun on the Camino thank goodness, and much wine is drunk in along the way - as it always has been. I think that the OP was concerned with a lack of respect for the feelings/beliefs of other whatever they might be. I will give an example of this. A friend walked the Camino last year, he is a Catholic, I am not, and walking along the Meseta he was praying the Rosary, coming up behind him was a young couple who were speaking to one another, but my friend said that as they drew near, one of them saw the Rosary and signalled to their companion to be silent, when they had gone some way past, they recommenced their animated discussion. They might have been walkers rather than pilgrims, but they respected the faith practices of the latter.
Regarding the Cruz de Ferro, you are correct that all that has been written about it on this forum would support the view that the site may not have any claim to being sacred, but those who leave stones and other items do so because for them it is a meaningful act, therefore for them it is sacred. People lay down - symbolically (not necessarily for religious reasons) emotional burdens, sadness, thanksgiving and memories at the site. That so many have done so, for me - I don't make rules for others - requires that I respect what they consider sacred. I would behave accordingly at a roadside shrine. These places matter to people. I know of two pilgrims who carried with them a single stone to be placed at the foot of the cross. Prior to their Camino, that stone had been laid on a table at the back of their church for several weeks with the invitation for any of the congregation to hold it for a moment and say a prayer; those prayers being carried in their hearts, if not literally, to the cairn.
When I arrived at the Cruz de Ferro, people who had stayed at several of the same albergues as myself in towns/villages earlier, used it as a fun photo opportunity. I assume that they were walkers not pilgrims, but I would never have asked that question of them, so I just waited until they had done taking photographs before placing my own stone on the pile.
People make pilgrimages to Graceland. It is not something I would do, I know that it has meaning for them and therefore respect their emotional attachment to the place. May mutual respect, fun and the flow of red wine long continue to be part of everyone's Camino
All I was trying to express is that this stop along the Camino is not a religious one persay, and that people should not get upset when it is not respected as a church would be. It has become a Camino landmark, whose mess may pay for itself or not, but in order for one not be be upset by how it is treated perhaps seeing it as that will be helpful. The fact that the stuff left at its foot gets buldozed should be telling of its status, simply that of a non sacred Camino landmark.Anemone I know that on an earlier post you have raised the cost to the local community of clearing away the stones and other items left at the Cruz de Ferro but I think that that cost is borne with good grace because the site is not only a draw for pilgrims and walkers of the Camino who spend their money in local communities - in very real terms in the case of the preceding village, Foncebadon which has been brought back to life by travellers on the Way, it also attracts tourist onto roads that would not be travelled otherwise. Think of how Acebo is thriving now. No doubt the iron cross is a marker for tourists who arrive by road - as opposed to foot - but I have no doubt that it is because of how pilgrims/walkers feel about the place and what they leave behind that makes it special and worth the trip there. As for pagan origins, well I can live with that as Christians have done for millenia.
Considering this site is does not have any particular religious status, one could bring their stone/rock and drop it off anywhere else on the Camino: a place with a beautiful view, at the top of xyz, etc. Dropping it of at the Cruz de Ferro doesn't add, bring, any additional meaning. For example, there are people in my life named Santiago and Domingo: much more meaningful for me to pray in a church or village named either Saint, or better yet the bith place of Santo Domingo. A roadside marker? Why not, as long as you won't be disappointed when you learn of its place in history and the fact that ot is not a religious landmark.Hm ... what would be objectionable to 'pagan' ? would this momument any less sacred/important if it were deemed pagan? most christian holidays have pagan roots. people were pilgrims before there was christanity ...
I am sure I don't quite understand your last sentence ... nor the intention behind it, to be sure ...
I like Tincatinkers responce. I'm an both a walking pilgrim and a pilgrimaging walker. With few exceptions we are all guests in Spain and should act accordingly at all times. Some people are disrespectful not realizing they're being disrespectful. The popular forum stop sign photo, Don't Stop Walking, is a good example, to me is graffiti and very disrespectful . Buen CaminoThis is a topic / question that has provoked both interesting discussion and unpleasant behaviour on previous occasions. Members are asked to exercise themselves with care. (moderated smiley)
Me? I'm either a walking pilgrim or a pilgrimaging walker. And if I encountered the described behaviour I would probably be in trouble. Some things still erupt the violent temper I have spent most of my adult life learning to manage.
All I was trying to express is that this stop along the Camino is not a religious one persay, and that people should not get upset when it is not respected as a church would be. It has become a Camino landmark, whose mess may pay for itself or not, but in order for one not be be upset by how it is treated perhaps seeing it as that will be helpful. The fact that the stuff left at its foot gets buldozed should be telling of its status, simply that of a non sacred Camino landmark.
As for Foncebadon benefitting from bus tourism, perhaps Coelho is the true maker of that. As for el Acebo, it has always been a well to do little community. A look at the quality of its buildings is quite telling.
I don't know. I gotta doubt that any of the rocks have ever been bulldozed away. I'd have to see some proof of that. It's a pretty fair sized mound. My guess is that at the most maybe they have used heavy equipment to pile it up and keep it from spilling on to the roadway.The rocks get bulldozed? I had no idea. There are so many stories wrapped up in each stone. It is really troubling to my heart that so many peoples thoughts, prayers, remembrances and tears, that are wrapped up in a simple stone, are bulldozed away. Officially sacred or not, I know it will always be sacred to me, if not for the cross itself (which is already sacred to many, myself included), then for the heartfelt moments of each pilgrim or walker who has stopped there to leave a stone before me.
I don't know. I gotta doubt that any of the rocks have ever been bulldozed away. I'd have to see some proof of that. It's a pretty fair sized mound. My guess is that at the most maybe they have used heavy equipment to pile it up and keep it from spilling on to the roadway.
I'd like to see some photographic evidence. Never been one to believe hearsay.
One of my pet peeves on the Camino, or anywhere. The notion that some idiot with a can of spray paint is an artist or philosopher is absurd.I like Tincatinkers responce. I'm an both a walking pilgrim and a pilgrimaging walker. With few exceptions we are all guests in Spain and should act accordingly at all times. Some people are disrespectful not realizing they're being disrespectful. The popular forum stop sign photo, Don't Stop Walking, is a good example, to me is graffiti and very disrespectful . Buen Camino
You make some interesting points whariwharangi.
People do have fun on the Camino thank goodness, and much wine is drunk in along the way - as it always has been. I think that the OP was concerned with a lack of respect for the feelings/beliefs of other whatever they might be. I will give an example of this. A friend walked the Camino last year, he is a Catholic, I am not, and walking along the Meseta he was praying the Rosary, coming up behind him was a young couple who were speaking to one another, but my friend said that as they drew near, one of them saw the Rosary and signalled to their companion to be silent, when they had gone some way past, they recommenced their animated discussion. They might have been walkers rather than pilgrims, but they respected the faith practices of the latter.
Regarding the Cruz de Ferro, you are correct that all that has been written about it on this forum would support the view that the site may not have any claim to being sacred, but those who leave stones and other items do so because for them it is a meaningful act, therefore for them it is sacred. People lay down - symbolically (not necessarily for religious reasons) emotional burdens, sadness, thanksgiving and memories at the site. That so many have done so, for me - I don't make rules for others - requires that I respect what they consider sacred. I would behave accordingly at a roadside shrine. These places matter to people. I know of two pilgrims who carried with them a single stone to be placed at the foot of the cross. Prior to their Camino, that stone had been laid on a table at the back of their church for several weeks with the invitation for any of the congregation to hold it for a moment and say a prayer; those prayers being carried in their hearts, if not literally, to the cairn.
When I arrived at the Cruz de Ferro, people who had stayed at several of the same albergues as myself in towns/villages earlier, used it as a fun photo opportunity. I assume that they were walkers not pilgrims, but I would never have asked that question of them, so I just waited until they had done taking photographs before placing my own stone on the pile.
People make pilgrimages to Graceland. It is not something I would do, I know that it has meaning for them and therefore respect their emotional attachment to the place. May mutual respect, fun and the flow of red wine long continue to be part of everyone's Camino
The chapel was built only in 1982 by the Centro Galicia in Ponferrada. There were no religious buildings there before.There are different theories as to why the cross was erected there and when. Apparently it has enough religious significance to locals there that they built a chapel near it, and it is a "cross" which is a Christian religious symbol.
Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures? I will try to find the link to a pictur of the buldozing in a Spanish article mentioning what a burden this practice is to the community. I know I once posted it before.Ok. Then my misunderstanding. I thought I had read they were bulldozed away. Very relieved to hear that it is unlikely.
@Albertagirl please don't leave the forum. I was surprised to see your heartfelt post used (out of context and incompletely) at the top of this thread, having read it on the other thread, and had hoped the OP had seen fit to ask you whether you would mind it being used here. Used, in fact, to ask a rather different question which seems unrelated to your post or the reason you posted it, and which could have been asked without quoting you (or if necessary just by saying "a post on another thread got me thinking...." without including your words). I know anyone can reply or quote a post, but usually that is within the original thread and in the context of a single discussion. Given that your post was made in a discussion of emotional moments, it would have been courteous and sensitive to ask before placing it in a different topic discussion. I have enjoyed your thoughtful and thought-provoking posts, and would hate to see you leave due to a (perhaps unintentionally) thoughtless action by another member. I hope you will consider staying, and continuing to share your thoughts and experiences here.I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
Thank you@Albertagirl please don't leave the forum. I was surprised to see your heartfelt post used (out of context and incompletely) at the top of this thread, having read it on the other thread, and had hoped the OP had seen fit to ask you whether you would mind it being used here. Used, in fact, to ask a rather different question which seems unrelated to your post or the reason you posted it, and which could have been asked without quoting you (or if necessary just by saying "a post on another thread got me thinking...." without including your words). I know anyone can reply or quote a post, but usually that is within the original thread and in the context of a single discussion. Given that your post was made in a discussion of emotional moments, it would have been courteous and sensitive to ask before placing it in a different topic discussion. I have enjoyed your thoughtful and thought-provoking posts, and would hate to see you leave due to a (perhaps unintentionally) thoughtless action by another member. I hope you will consider staying, and continuing to share your thoughts and experiences here.
I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
The chapel was built only in 1982 by the Centro Galicia in Ponferrada. There were no religious buildings there before.
I just looked into my Complete Cultural Handbook which was written before 2000. They say that the place is a photo-op and advise to be sure to climb to the top of the rock pile to get a first glimpse of the mountains of Galicia to the west. Not much sacredness there yet. They mention that modern pilgrims pick up a stone earlier in their journey as a symbol of their sins and deposit it as an act of contrition. No talk yet of bringing a stone from home or leaving mementos of various kinds, also mementos from and for others, so that must be an even younger tradition - and possibly one that has been imported into Spain.
Nancy Frey writes that the Cruz became an informal shrine in the mid-1990s.
Hi Albertagirl,
Your original post used above, was heartfelt, honest and what many Pilgrims no doubt experience at some stage.
Mine was trying to block out a babbling gaggle of Spanish 'tourists' whilst kneeling in prayer in the Church in Lavacolla. And few other places
I'm sure the person who used your post to raise a question, did not mean any harm. They probably picked it because it was expressed so well. Hopefully we are all amongst friends here. And Yes, occasionally friends 'tick us off' at times
Please don't leave the Forum. You are an important part of an amazing online community here, that will be the worse for your departure.....
Maybe we all need to be careful about 'quoting' other members, other than within the thread where the post was made?
Robo,
This experience has shown me something that I should have considered more carefully: the personal risks to being on an online forum. I find it very hard to communicate with other people who have walked a pilgrimage route that has been profoundly meaningful to me and to confine my comments to what kind of clothes to wear. I really don't care. I would walk the pilgrimage route naked if it were the only way I could do it. But I should know better than to let myself be emotionally or spiritually naked. I have been on this forum for a year and have only just realized my monumental stupidity in revealing too much of myself. This makes me want to hide in a hole, where I can be safe (there, I've done it again, I really am too stupid to be on a social forum).
Sadly this is true and it IS public exposure, i.e. not limited to members of the forum or lurkers. We all create permanent records when we make online comments anywhere. I have great sympathy with Albertagirl's feelings. But in all honesty, it would not have struck me as a no-no to quote a post from a different thread as the OP did with no intention of misrepresenting by lack of context. I have seen bans on 'cross posting' on some forums.Anything you post on a public forum is just that: public.
Hundreds if not thousands of people will read it and there will be comments. Some you may like, enjoy, or agree with. Others you won't. It is what it is. Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it. Try not to take anything too personally.
Are you sure of your statistics? 250k walking past the Cruz de Ferro? That's another reason I questioned the "enormous costs" of cleaning up the stones that you talk about.Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures?
I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
I prefer not to be labeled at all.
Certainly everyone, including those who are very religious, must realize that beliefs are a very personal thing and not everyone feels the same as they do. Not better or worse, just different.
I would also like to add my voice to those who say "please don't leave the forum". Many threads here have been started on foot of a post in another thread, although why yours was used puzzles me. The question just could have been asked "are you a pilgrim or a walker" without reference to your post. If you wish it can be edited.I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
Let's safely say 150k people a year pass by, let's conservatively say 1 million stones and many offerings every 10 years. That's a LOT of stones, etc. Stands to reason they have to trim it back fairly often. I haven't been yet but I understand The Cruz De Ferro is close to the road.Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures? I will try to find the link to a pictur of the buldozing in a Spanish article mentioning what a burden this practice is to the community. I know I once posted it before.
As my last comment on the topic:mif peeing on the walls of mosques and chopping down shrine trees (and notice I never said the onlything that matter are Catholic monuments) then why polute the Spanish countryside and expect the locals to clean up our mess? What is it through hikers say about leaving no trace?Are you sure of your statistics? 250k walking past the Cruz de Ferro? That's another reason I questioned the "enormous costs" of cleaning up the stones that you talk about.
As to some other people's comments, the fact that many people consider a place sacred may not make you believe it is, but you still should be respecting the fact that other people believe it's sacred. I don't pee on the walls of mosques or chop down Buddhist shrine trees because it would be wrong and offensive to those believe those to be sacred.
Wayfarer,I would also like to add my voice to those who say "please don't leave the forum". Many threads here have been started on foot of a post in another thread, although why yours was used puzzles me. The question just could have been asked "are you a pilgrim or a walker" without reference to your post. If you wish it can be edited.
I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
Wayfarer,
Since my leaving stones at the cruz de ferro seems to be a focus of many of the critical comments on this thread, it really would not make much sense to remove my post. I am simply learning how social forums can go, when people use someone else's comments on something else as a focus for their own negative thoughts and feelings, knowing that the nature of such a forum makes this acceptable. I am finding it very difficult to be a focus, if not the direct target, of such negative thoughts. However, I am always free to simply not return to the forum.
Hi Albertgirl,I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"
hi anenome, i can't seem to put the end of your quote on this reply.that is interesting re the size of the stone that's put on the cruz should be proportional to ones sins. Drat!! Next time I will have to carry a boulder the whole way. A very big Boulder!
Considering this site is does not have any particular religious status, one could bring their stone/rock and drop it off anywhere else on the Camino: a place with a beautiful view, at the top of xyz, etc. Dropping it of at the Cruz de Ferro doesn't add, bring, any additional meaning. For example, there are people in my life named Santiago and Domingo: much more meaningful for me to pray in a church or village named either Saint, or better yet the bith place of Santo Domingo. A roadside marker? Why not, as long as you won't be disappointed when you learn of its place in history and the fact that ot is not a religious landmark.
Quoting Rabbi David Wolpe: "For most of us, stones conjure a harsh image. It does not seem the appropriate memorial for one who has died. But stones have a special character in Judaism. In the Bible, an altar is no more than a pile of stones, but it is on an altar that one offers to God. The stone upon which Abraham takes his son to be sacrificed is called even hashityah, the foundation stone of the world. The most sacred shrine in Judaism, after all, is a pile of stones–the wall of the Second Temple." Continuing in the early Christian Church and through today, piles of stones are considered symbols for many religious activities, (including memorials, and relieving stony burdens.) Whether one believes the Cruz de Fero site is "religious," or not, is not the point here. It is impossible to believe anyone would not readily know this is a religious pilgrimage for many, (think peregrinos/peregrinas and Camino de Santiago,) and then behave like Cretans, having little respect for themselves, or others. As was noted, a stone may be dropped at any point along the Camino, but here it is being dropped, as have hundreds of thousands of others, at this altar of stones, with not insignificant purpose. However, it is not within my ken to judge the charism of others hearts, and am called to respect their beliefs, or lack thereof. Yet, it is not unreasonable to ask others, in spite of the modern dogma of "me first," to respect mine and ask for mutual self-respect, including silence and modest behavior. After all, "fun" may too be had elsewhere.
I can't see why you would have been censored. You have put things in a very nice respectful way as have many others. We are walkers and have walked a few of the caminos. Although "just"walkers we are drawn to the Camino time and time again. I'm a "bit" religious, not so my husband but we find the way to be quite an emotional one in ways that our other walking trips are not. Thank God we have never seen any disrespect from people in any of our Camino walks. If we had,then I don't think we would be so charitable to them as to say nothing!! For as the saying goes"evil flourishes when good men do nothing"Wow! Thank you for liking what I had to offer.
I was convinced that one of my nemesis, secular "moderators" would have censored and deleted me...
The Camino continues to provide...
Hi bota, dear oh dear. Defenitely cannot agree with you on this one!!! But we will agree to disagree!! By the way, we are always happy with the pilgrim menu!! And we have a shell! And our house is covered in Camino memorabilia. And we visit all the churches and go to mass when we can! And yes we are "just" walkers! Best wishes annetteHi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.
Bota
Sorry Bota, have to disagree. I'll be visiting the churches, sleeping in albergues,attending mass, eating the pilgrims menu, carrying a shell. It's all part of the Camino experience, walker or pilgrim. Although I will be having the odd night in a hostel!Hi bota, dear oh dear. Defenitely cannot agree with you on this one!!! But we will agree to disagree!! By the way, we are always happy with the pilgrim menu!! And we have a shell! And our house is covered in Camino memorabilia. And we visit all the churches and go to mass when we can! And yes we are "just" walkers! Best wishes annette
Wow, if this is staying out of the debate, what is it like when you are engaged?Wow! So many emotional posts in so short a time.
I am staying out of this debate, except to state that I am a pilgrim in the broad meaning of the word. I am a Christian who walks to a holy place to escape myself, yet to find myself, to find meaning, to experience life pared back to its essentials, to help others, to be nourished by others, to empty myself out that I might be refilled with something better, and to give and to receive what the Camino has to offer.
This said, I would simply add that the Camino has, for the first millennia of it's existence, (about 1,200 years) been primarily a Christian pilgrimage to a declared, official holy site (the relics of St. James the Greater beneath the altar at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela).
The Camino de Sanitago was first established for that specific purpose to walk to the crypt and to venerate the relics. That remains the central focus to this day. However, we all know that people do the Camino for any number of reasons, some religious, others more secular.
Folks who do the Camino and encounter any shrine, cross, statue, or other evidently spiritual structure or edifice should respect that standing, at least that is my view of the matter. I believe it is a matter of basic civility and respect for others. It DOES NOT declare that one religion is superior to another. It DOES declare that basic respect should be accorded others' beliefs.
Surely, those of you who have walked the full Camino Frances, have seen the pentagram (five-pointed star) window on the western wall of the old San Anton ruins? Strange? Weird? Odd? Curious? Perhaps, but who am I to judge?
Cruz de Ferro is not, in and of itself a religious structure. But, much in the same way one should not desecrate or disrespect any shrine of any religious belief system, I submit that pilgrims should not engage in frivolous behavior at this site. It is IMHO disrespectful of the millions of pilgrims who likely accord special meaning or significance. It is that reverence and significance that accords and argues for protection and respect for this, arguably, secular monument to accomplishment.
I do not know the exact, original, reason why an iron cross was mounted atop a tall wooden pole, but I do know that there are previous (well weathered and rusted) iterations of the cross displayed in museums along the Camino. For example, there is one (or more) in the Archbishop's Residence (now a museum) at Astorga. I do know that the Spanish writer, Alonso de Castillo Solórzano wrote about the cross in the early 1600s.
So, the Cruz de Ferro has been a significant location along the Camino Frances for at least 400 years. The original significance is likely lost to time. But, why not simply behave in a mature and sober manner? In an era where all sorts of problems confront our society, why NOT simply act like an adult and behave responsibly?
I know that I originally stated I would not be drawn in, but as I thought and wrote, I become more concerned about the encroaching secularization of the Camino. So, I am offering a reasonable explanation of my thoughts on this issue in the hopes that others might agree and pass it on...
I hope this clarifies the debate on this matter.
Robo,
This experience has shown me something that I should have considered more carefully: the personal risks to being on an online forum. I find it very hard to communicate with other people who have walked a pilgrimage route that has been profoundly meaningful to me and to confine my comments to what kind of clothes to wear. I really don't care. I would walk the pilgrimage route naked if it were the only way I could do it. But I should know better than to let myself be emotionally or spiritually naked. I have been on this forum for a year and have only just realized my monumental stupidity in revealing too much of myself. This makes me want to hide in a hole, where I can be safe (there, I've done it again, I really am too stupid to be on a social forum).
I don't agree with either of these points. The quote used was made in a public place where any forum member could have commented on it. It doesn't seem important to me that the commentary has to stay in the original thread.The original poster should have asked @Albertagirl before using her ideas. I think that given how much debate and back-and-forth has ensued, this thread should be deleted, as it included HER words, not his, and she is clearly uncomfortable with this.
I would ask the mods to get involved here.
God does not require you to leave notes to him.
Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.
Bota
Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.
Bota
@Botaivica it will be interesting to know if your view of this changes when you have walked your Camino. You imagine two very different groups walking the Camino in very different ways - it isn't as simple as that, and you will have seen from others' comments that motivations for walking the Camino are many and complex. As in life itself, nothing is black-and-white, one or the other. It is rarely possible to know what is in a person's heart from their outward appearance or behaviour. And as someone said above, some people start out thinking they are just walking, and find so much more in the experience. I hope your Camino is everything you hope for. I hope also that you will perhaps return to this discussion after your Camino and write about whether your impression of those who walk the Camino has changed in any way.
Buen Camino
Hi SabineP & GettingThereOnly the HEART of the individual/ walker knows and more importantly feels what he or she is.
When walking , my meditation can be a prayer...What does this make me? Hopefully a better and more content human being.
Am I a lesser pilgrim because I don't eat a pilgrim's menu every day and don't sleep in the simplest albergues? I don't think so : the circumstances made it possible for me to spend a little more on my pilgrimage thus leaving the donativos to those who really need it.
Regarding photo ops, I have read articles that advise people where to stand in the Cathedral in SDC to get the best photos during the Pilgrim's Mass, a place of great significance and sacredness and for which I've not yet read anyone disparaging those taking photos/videos during a religious ceremony.
The two references to photo ops are not the same but you treat them as the same and that fudges the issues a bit. The Cathedral in SDC is a Roman Catholic church. There is no doubt that it is a sacred place for Roman Catholics. There are even formal procedures to make churches sacred and keep them sacred. There is no room for discussion whether they should be respected as a sacred place by everyone. I personally don't understand why photographing is allowed during service in any church.By definition aren't we modern pilgrims? And if, as Nancy Frey writes, it is a informal shrine since the mid-1990's then why is it so bad to respect it as such? Every meaningful tradition or act was new at some point and to see and read what meaning it gives to people makes it sacred in my view.
Regarding photo ops, I have read articles that advise people where to stand in the Cathedral in SDC to get the best photos during the Pilgrim's Mass, a place of great significance and sacredness and for which I've not yet read anyone disparaging those taking photos/videos during a religious ceremony.
I think this is part of the problem and the conflicts: the network of roads that is called Camino has always been a space that has been shared by pilgrims, by locals in their daily life, by the military, and by traders and business travellers. It was not a sacred place, not then and not now. To a large extent, the modern infrastructure is what it is today because it has been promoted and funded as a cultural and historic way with an extraordinary amount of cultural heritage (mainly buildings) from the High and Late Middle Ages (Baja Edad Media).Also, historically, for centuries, the Camino passed pilgrims,
now we have and hikers or walker
Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant.
Bota
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?