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The damage is done and I don't know how it could be undone. I don't know if the intent is to make the path suitable for cyclists (which I think it is now,except for the rare mess). I don't think so because there are virtually no cyclists on the Primitivo (I've seen 2). I am sure the intent is not to benefit the local folks who use the paths, otherwise the "repairs" would not all be in one line heading to Santiago. Whatever the intent is, if this is what is going to happen to all the Caminos in Galicia, God help us. I am no "purist" but I find this to be such unpleasant walking that I can't imagine coming back to the Primitivo in Galicia.
Fiends of the Invierno had better join forces and block those bulldozers.
Given the mud in some places i preferr the new path. 40cm deep in mud is not nice.The Primitivo enters Galicia after the pass at Acebo. At that point, at least up to Lugo where I am now, almost every bit of unpaved camino has been scraped, leveled, and filled with a crushed rock/gravel type substance. There seem to be two widths. Where possible, the path is wide enough for a car. In the hills and valleys, the machinery must have been smaller and the path is about 5' (?) wide. Even on those parts after Paradavella and the ascent up to A Lastra, it is incredible. There is one spot where Mother Nature has taken her revenge and left a mess but for the rest of it, you will be walking on a leveled gravel path. I guess "paving" is an overstatement but not much.
I assume it's the Xunta and they must have their reasons. 4 years ago this was a regular old (and beautiful) camino --why would they do this?!
If this idea spreads back to Asturias, I don't even want to think about how it would change things. It's just not right to be walking through beautiful woods on a cleared gravel path.
Note, that much of the Camino, several traditional routes across several provinces and regions, traverses agricultural areas. These agricultural areas, and their productivity, are critical to the Spanish economy, at least the agricultural sector. This economy literally needs all the help it can get.
Seen in this context, repaving the graveled paths, or in some cases adding hard paving (concrete or asphalt) to support larger, heavier, perhaps more efficient farm machines is not incorrect IMHO. If you were a farmer you would likely have an opinion in favor of improving the access roads so you could more efficiently work your fields and crops. The result is a net good to all. . . . . . . . . . . .
I started looking for related stories about "improving" roads in agricultural areas that were also Camino routes. What I learned is what I am trying to describe above. I am NOT taking a "for" or "against" position. . . . . . . .
Of course, I realize that each of us has a preference. But, this is mine. As someone in his 60s, with bone issues, I do try to avoid tripping, falling, and twisting any body part. While I respect the purist point of view, I am also aware that the use of much of these routes as Camino paths is secondary to the daily, primary use of these routes for agriculture. Thus, we must "share the road."
. . . . . . . . . .
I am also aware than some, perhaps many of you, may disagree with my view. However, before replying angrily, think about the big picture. This issue, while important to us pilgrims, is only one consideration in an economy that is trying desperately to remain competitive and to improve the overall standard of life in Northwest Spain. I agree with you all, who prefer "the good old ways." However, I also see the overriding reasons and necessity for the local folks doing what they believe they must to survive economically.
I hope this helps the dialog.
The Primitivo enters Galicia after the pass at Acebo. At that point, at least up to Lugo where I am now, almost every bit of unpaved camino has been scraped, leveled, and filled with a type substance. ...
I would not worry so much about the sole of your shoe, but its structure, atiffness, etc. 800km will normally kill any shoe, no matter the sole.Will the crushed rock/gravel application wear out the soles hiking boots that much quicker? Last year, I wore out my new Lowa Renegade boots walking the del Norte from Irun, and to my chagrin, I learned that they are designed to be resoled.
Will the crushed rock/gravel application wear out the soles hiking boots that much quicker? Last year, I wore out my new Lowa Renegade boots walking the del Norte from Irun, and to my chagrin, I learned that they are designed to be resoled.
As someone who is planning to start my first walk next month I find that taking what is the easiest solution to path management very depressing that once done will be impossible to reverse. There are plenty of places around the world that have high visitor numbers and suffer the same problems of erosion and mud and they find ways to maintain and improve paths without resorting to destroying what makes an area special. I would guess no has though of the consequences of having built proper paths it then encourages more walkers which then changes the towns and villages it passes though. Who want to visit town and villages that exist just to serve tourists and where the tourists outnumber the locals.
Maybe the Xunta is only paving on Fonsagrada municipality. (I couldn' find out on Internet the global Xunta's plan for the Primitivo).
Some call this progress
But the sad truth is that there are places in this world where us two legged creatures simply overwhelm the environment at times.
(There is also the case of some having access to too much money and finding a need to spend it on building and constructing things for some odd reason)
We could try turning back the clocks, bringing back dark ancient medieval muddy paths along with swamps, fallen logs, washed away bridges, etc.
Or we could fast forward into the future and employee Spot or Atlas to do our camino for us, just like royalty did in years past.
The links in @homebuilt's posts illustrate that there is a third alternative -- environmentally and historically sensitive trail management. With all the money the Xunta drops into all things Camino, and given the UNESCO designation, I think they had an obligation to explore that third alternative.
I'm on the Invierno as I write this, and very sad to inform that heavy machinery is levelling an unsightly route through nature between Rodeiro and Cabra.
There is obviously sensitive trail management know-how out there.Fiends of the Invierno had better join forces and block those bulldozers.
There is obviously sensitive trail management know-how out there.
The damage has already been done on the Primativo, so there's not much that can be done. But I wonder about the Invierno, which so far seems relatively untouched--and the trouble is coming there too, from the sound of it. From a distance it's hard to know if there's anything practical we could do, short of an e-petition to the Xunta. Can FICS or some friends group do something to head off the same kind of 'improvement' there, stopping destruction before it happens??
Exactly, @jirit--I agree. Unless perhaps there were thousands of signatures, and even then. Ironic, since foreign peregrino/as on the the various Caminos in Gallicia probably do a lot to keep the local economy afloat. Enough said, as the discussion could go in a political direction. But as @peregrina2000 says...what can we do?? Is there any place of leverage?The Xunta moves slowly if at all, so I doubt a petition by some foreigners will hold much sway.
One hopes FICS has this and is talking about the Invierno too.Here is a document by UNESCO on trail maintenance for another set of trails. I wonder if there is anything for the camino ?
Answering my own question, here's a quote from the thesis that @jirit cites above:And the Consejo Jacobeo: what role do they play?
Since the addition of crushed rock has destroyed the authenticity of the Primitivo Camino in Galicia the current situation might be widely broadcast through the work of Hispania Nostra. Read more of their efforts to protect the Spanish natural and cultural heritage on their web http://www.hispanianostra.org/
Thanks for bringing it up, Laurie. You never know--fingers crossed that something happens in Spain that stops the momentum of this.Thanks for the education, guys.
I guess we have all vented our frustrations, but the question is -- now what? I will try what mspath suggests and contact hispanianostra. I have also written to some Spanish friends who were fully engaged in the efforts (successful) to stop the industry near Arca and another issue or two. Maybe they will have something concrete to suggest, especially with regard to stopping the bulldozing of the Camino de Invierno. But it may just be too late to do anything. Thanks for the education, guys.
Thanks, Terry, for reminding me of this. I contacted some friends who are involved in FICS and they gave me a suggestion or two, but I've been away from my computer for almost two weeks now and can't get a Spanish language keyboard on my iPad. I will be home next week and will write a complete description to them. Do you think I should send it to the person you are already in contact with? If so, send a PM and I'll carry on from there. I also think it's a good idea to contact national associations, so I will contact APOC as soon as I have the time. These are great suggestions, though I find it sad that others with more knowledge of trail maintenance than I seem to think that once the damage is done, it is irreparable. But maybe it will help with the preservation of other Caminos in Galicia. Buen camino, Laurie
I also think it's a good idea to contact national associations, so I will contact APOC as soon as I have the time. These are great suggestions, though I find it sad that others with more knowledge of trail maintenance than I seem to think that once the damage is done, it is irreparable. But maybe it will help with the preservation of other Caminos in Galicia. Buen camino, Laurie
Forgive me if this has already been suggested elsewhere, but is it possible that the work being done is a (perhaps misguided) attempt to fulfil the 2003 ley de igualdad de oportunidades, no discriminación y accesibilad universal de las personas con discapacidad so that wheelchair users can access these sections of the camino?
This is the section that Terry said was actually dangerous (2009) with erosion and slippery stones as the water was running down from a broken channel. We took the bus from Paradavella to avoid it in 2012 so sad though the work might seem visually it was probably essential. Hopefully it will blend in and the channelling will be maintained.after Paradavella and before A Lastra. This was a forest path and it is now crushed rock. There was one part where rushing water had washed out the crushed rock, making quite a mess,
I will take good footing anytime, and erosion control is necessary for those who live there even if visitors think the aesthetics are poor.
The Foro do Camiño, composed by 30 ONGs from Lugo, has denounced the works made by the Xunta de Galicia in Camino del Norte and Primitivo before ICOMOS (the International Council on Monuments and Sites, an advisory body of UNESCO). The Foro says (my poor translation) that under euphemisms as conditioning, recovery and improvement, the traditional appearance of the historic pilgrimage routes is being modified with purposes essentially related to tourism.
The Foro supports its arguments with a law protecting the Caminos since 1996, which defines those Caminos as cultural goods associated with a historical territory, and not as regular roads or tourist attractives (the legalese is difficult to translate, it is "no como caminos funcionales de tránsito o de mercado turístico-comercial" in Spanish). Also, some testimonials from pilgrims that criticize the new conditions of the Camino have been included in the document.
See "El Diario", here
(Note: edited to correct the url)
I will take good footing anytime, and erosion control is necessary for those who live there even if visitors think the aesthetics are poor.
That sound fine till you realise that you are following a historic route. How can you follow in the footsteps of the original pilgrims if there are no footprints to follow.Historic trails are paved in many places. They followed the best route, and when the ox cart was replaced by the automobile, they were pave with macadam. Romans and pilgrims took the easiest route, so all the difficult scenic routes are modern inventions to keep pilgrims safe from vehicles.
I have walked the Primitivo for the first time this May. After reading all the comments above I can not for the life of me remember any surface that I walked on that bothered me!
I do remember the mud on the Friol-Sobrado route but that was part of the experience for me. I was so in awe of the beauty, tranquility, jaw dropping vistas that I did not take any notice of the surfaces that I was walking on! I fell in love with the Primitivo and I would walk it again in a heartbeat. Maybe the second time around I would look at the route with different eyes!
Hi, Petro, I certainly am not trying to rain on everyone's Primitivo parade. In fact, I was walking in a loose group of about 15, all of whom were first timers, and it wasn't till I pointed it out that they became aware, and by the end they were all hating it like I was. So that's maybe a reason to just keep quiet and hope that the authorities take care of things, so as not to have a negative impact on others' experience. Because you are absolutely right that it is a beautiful, peaceful route in spite of what's under your feet.
I think I noticed it since I had already walked the Primitivo twice and had such clear memories of a little-traveled pristine camino. Just as it was hard to ignore the increase in pilgrims, it was hard to ignore the hardening of the foot path, but I agree that it is still a gem.
Hi Laurie, I did not want my comment to come across as a criticism of your observations. I do appreciate your concern about the impact that the "improvements" may have on the route. After walking the CF for the third time I realised that change are not always for the better and that my opinion or view has changed from the first time I walked it.
However, I have enjoyed all my caminos immensely and I hope there will be many more to come.
Thank you for your informative and valuable posts on this forum.
Petro
Hi, Petro, absolutely no offense was taken, so I hope you weren't apologizing. I guess my use of the word "certainly" may have conveyed to you the sense that I was being prickly. Funny, I just this minute turned the radio off after listening to a discussion by some speech profs who were describing the miscommunications that occur when our conversations are limited to the written word. I had always been kind of skeptical and judgmental about all the uses of emoticons in texts and in forums, etc., but as one of the profs pointed out -- writing without emoticons is kind of like speaking with a paper bag over your head and in a monotone. So anyway, long story short, I was just trying to convey that my goal here isn't to make people hate the Primitivo and I hoped you didn't think otherwise.
Just to flag up this post again. This organisation is taking an active interest in this issue on the Primitivo. If you scroll to the bottom of the hispanianostra page there is a contact link. (Also see @TerryB post #45 above for a further link on their site) Those who have walked previously and have seen the damage could make a comment or report and any photos 'before' and' after' would help. They have an English speaking representative so language is not a problem. You might need their e-mail response to send any photos. They already have the Diario link and photo (@Felipe post #55 above).Since the addition of crushed rock has destroyed the authenticity of the Primitivo Camino in Galicia the current situation might be widely broadcast through the work of Hispania Nostra. Read more of their efforts to protect the Spanish natural and cultural heritage on their web http://www.hispanianostra.org/
We have no plans to walk the Camino again and instead are planning on walking the less travelled and unspoilt paths that we can search out for next year.
We can still encourage would be pilgrims but the 'upgraded Camino' is not for us.
Here is the before and after photo.Sounds sad but I can’t ‘see’ the pics the link is supposed to include. No pics of rocks or paths when I open Laurie ‘s link above @peregrina2000
Breaks my heart, same as walking to Finisterre....Here is the before and after photo.
https://www.galiciapress.es/texto-d...te-camino-santiago-original-sepultado-cemento
View attachment 47317
I am planning to walk the Camino Primitivo around mid-spring. For me it will be for the first time. The general slant of comments like these speaks of a certain, I don't know what.... maybe arrogance? It smacks of a "there goes the neighborhood" attitude that is disparaging of future Peregrinos on the Camino Primitivo. It's maybe bad that some local agency to promote tourism took steps to "improve" the Camino, for whatever reason, good or bad. But to despair to the point of saying that all future Peregrinos will only be walking because it is an easy, clean, sanitary experience.... well... I think that you are taking your disappointment out on us newbies. I'll be walking that route. I'll be on those gravelly paths. And I'm definitely not doing it because it is easy. I can stay home for "easy."And tomorrow another Peregrino will begin their journey from wherever to Santiago with so much hope in their heart and they will encounter this and it will be 'normal' for them. The 'ruta' should be clear, it should be easy - why ever else would you walk it? And is it really true all anyone wanted was that your camino should get you to Santiago with clean boots, hope in your heart and a few Euros to buy the Tshirt.
I am sure that @Tincatinker can answer for himself but I did not read his post in that way. I took his comments to mean that those who will now come to the Primitivo will sadly not know what they have just missed. I also had the impression that @Tincatinker thinks that those behind these "improvements" are the ones who mistakenly believe that what we who walk the Caminos want most of all is the simple and the easy. I see no slight on those whose first Camino is yet to come.But to despair to the point of saying that all future Peregrinos will only be walking because it is an easy, clean, sanitary experience.... well... I think that you are taking your disappointment out on us newbies.
I totally agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately the motivation for these changes has nothing to do with making the transport of raw materials or produce easier and more efficient. Those products do not travel on gravel paths between Oviedo and Santiago. This is a change that is directed exclusively by the tourism bureaucrats who see the caminos in Galicia as a golden egg, done without consultation with the many cultural, historical camino groups in Spain, many of which have tried unsuccessfully to stop this with legal maneuvers both in Spain and in the EU.I'm with @t2andreo --- the camino runs through a country that must be used by its permanent occupants, and has been from its very earliest days built as an effort to make the transport of raw materials and agricultural produce easier and more efficient. The already very poor region owes us nothing; we owe it everything for providing such an accessible and financially remarkable path to our own self actualization projects (which, from a certain angle, are entirely frivolous).
The photo shows something similar to what is being planned for a lovely canal and river walk I recently enjoyed in Ireland, turning it into a Blueway so that cyclists can whoosh along at the rate of knots...Breaks my heart, same as walking to Finisterre....
I've been googling the issues of altering the trace or the "look" of the physical Camino to Santiago in Galicia a bit. As seen from Galicia, there are at least two opposite views: one party says that the physical paths are defined as assets of a cultural nature associated with a historical territory and not as functional roads for transit or touristic-commercial markets. The Xunta as the other party apparently accuses them of clinging to static authenticity, attests them a reconstructive zeal, fossilization, speculative re-creation, and has even identified a "fetish-like object of contemplation"; instead they plead for a presence that is alive and vital, according to the description of a case once brought to the Galician High Court. I'm sure my poor translation doesn't do the words justice.I'm with @t2andreo --- the camino runs through a country that must be used by its permanent occupants, and has been from its very earliest days built as an effort to make the transport of raw materials and agricultural produce easier and more efficient. The already very poor region owes us nothing; we owe it everything for providing such an accessible and financially remarkable path to our own self actualization projects (which, from a certain angle, are entirely frivolous).
. I'm aware that most of the time I'm not walking on medieval roads as they are indeed covered under asphalt and used by motorcars. The tradition often referred to, I think, is the tradition of the last few decades.
Well OK then Tincatinker.... this is a pretty good forum and I assume that, as a moderator, you are partly responsible for that. I do share your sentiment about the destructiveness of these improvements. That newspaper article had some strong talk about others who seem quite upset about what the tourism agency did. The improvement process is not going to continue unchallenged, and I suspect that some Spanish voices will get quite loud if the "improvers" do not temper their activities.Camino isn't supposed to be easy, safe and neatly packaged; nor is it supposed to be difficult or dangerous. Camino, for me, is a journey in liminal space to a place of the heart. My ire is invested in those who seem to think it is a holiday destination.
A good and valid point, wayfarer. I confess that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!My experience with this type of work being done here at home, and because of funding, or lack, of its not done often, is that its done to prevent erosion not to facilitate easier access. When you see the damage done by several hundred walkers, not to talk of thousands, on some of the trails you can understand. Croagh Patrick springs to mind.
Have you walked to Finisterre? Just askin’...
I totally agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately the motivation for these changes has nothing to do with making the transport of raw materials or produce easier and more efficient. [ ...] This is a change that is directed exclusively by the tourism bureaucrats who see the caminos in Galicia as a golden egg, done without consultation with the many cultural, historical camino groups in Spain, many of which have tried unsuccessfully to stop this with legal maneuvers both in Spain and in the EU.
[...]
PS: Since the approach to Zubiri, which is of course not on the Camino Primitivo, I've repeatedly asked myself why there is such an apparent shortage of know-how about how to create and manage walking paths in these regions. I'm aware that most of the time I'm not walking on medieval roads as they are indeed covered under asphalt and used by motorcars. The tradition often referred to, I think, is the tradition of the last few decades.
Upgrading of well used paths is probably inevitable. If only to avoid erosion. We are the cause in one way.
Agreed. I had deleted it before you answered as I had neither the time or the energy to explain further.I don't see the point of the question.
Nightmare? That seems to be a bit over the top... If I walk the Camino here, will I have nightmares? Or did walking on the altered paths make your feet or legs very sore, and by doing that, you were equating that to a nightmare?They just did a short stretch of this along the Variante Espiritual, what a nightmare to walk on.
English isn’t my first language so I checked in the Collins dictionary.Nightmare? That seems to be a bit over the top... If I walk the Camino here, will I have nightmares? Or did walking on the altered paths make your feet or legs very sore, and by doing that, you were equating that to a nightmare?
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