Kiwi-family
{Rachael, the Mama of the family}
- Time of past OR future Camino
- walking every day for the rest of my life
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I haven't used Pacer poles, but I have used technical poles for over a decade now, having been a single long stick user before that.Kitsambler said:What is so distinctive about the PacerPole design, apart from the very comfortable and ergonomic angled hand-grip, is the broad flange at the base of the hand-grip, which allows you to press down quite effectively, both for going uphill and for going downhill.
falcon269 said:I am on my second set of rubber tips.
Rubber tips. Fair assessment. I had to find some in Carrion de las Condes during the third "francés". :roll: Hate the tickety-tick sound :mrgreen:falcon269 said:I got two caminos, over 1,000 km on my first set.
PingHansen said:How long do you estimate the rubber tips will last?
dougfitz said:While I don't think Pacer poles offer any real technical advantages over other poles used correctly, the Pacer poles' big advantage appears to be that they are almost impossible to use incorrectly. The design of the hand grip ensures that.
DesertRain said:Basically, on "standard" trekking poles, the wrist straps are supposed to take the strain/weight/pressure; this pressure is concentrated on the outside of the wrist.
There is no one solution that is perfect for everyone. Buen Camino.
I find that I am much harder than this on rubber tips. I used two complete pairs of the Leki walking foot on the Camino in 2010. These normally last me three or four months in normal circumstances, ie somewhere 450-600km. I don't expect the normal rubber tips to last anywhere near that long if they are getting solid use. Mind you, I don't fairy tap my poles either.Kitsambler said:That makes roughly 3700 km or 2300 miles, and they are just now to the point where I ought to replace (but have not worn through yet).
This would indicate to me that you might not have been using the wrist strap correctly. If poles are used as demonstrated on the Leki site and in other places, the pressure on the strap is on the top of the wrist and the base of the palm opposite the thumb. I also agree with newfydog - if the pressure is coming from anywhere but the strap, then the action being used is wrong, and getting the strap right is almost the single most important thing.DesertRain said:the wrist straps are supposed to take the strain/weight/pressure; this pressure is concentrated on the outside of the wrist.
dougfitz said:This would indicate to me that you might not have been using the wrist strap correctly. If poles are used as demonstrated on the Leki site and in other places, the pressure on the strap is on the top of the wrist and the base of the palm opposite the thumb. I also agree with newfydog - if the pressure is coming from anywhere but the strap, then the action being used is wrong, and getting the strap right is almost the single most important thing.
Non-users do imagine a lot of things that are not true! Skiing derives power from the poles, while trekking does not (unless you are doing Nordic walking as an exercise). The stress on hands from straps or Pacer Poles is more from stability and a bit of extra lift. If one uses a death grip on the handles of Pacer Poles, fingers can cramp, so grip them loosely unless the terrain calls for something firmer.no one who has used them has answered the original poster's question in the affirmative.
The physics of pole use is exactly the same whether they are trekking poles, nordic walking poles or ski poles. The force applied to the top of the pole is applied through the pole to the ground. The angle of the pole determines how much of that force becomes vertical lift, and how much becomes horizontal push. So the long poles used in skiing and nordic walking generate more push, because of the greater angle, while the more vertical trekking pole generates more lift.falcon269 said:Non-users do imagine a lot of things that are not true! Skiing derives power from the poles, while trekking does not (unless you are doing Nordic walking as an exercise).
I agree completely. I think I have already expressed the view that the greatest advantage of Pacer poles is that they appear almost impossible to use incorrectly. In contrast, conventional poles are relatively easy to get wrong, and most people I see using them do so. While companies like Leki now have good on-line video, when I have seen sales staff selling poles, they invariably offer only a superficial explanation of their proper use, or none at all.DesertRain said:Additionally, there seems to be much more room for "user error" with conventional poles.
Well, I take an agnostic view on this. Its not that I do NOT LIKE Pacer poles, but that I do not LIKE Pacer poles. One day I may get to try a pair, and then decide whether I am neutral about this, or otherwise.DesertRain said:What I do notice, is that no one who has used them has answered the original poster's question in the affirmative.
dougfitz said:The physics of pole use is exactly the same whether they are trekking poles, nordic walking poles or ski poles. The force applied to the top of the pole is applied through the pole to the ground. The angle of the pole determines how much of that force becomes vertical lift, and how much becomes horizontal push. So the long poles used in skiing and nordic walking generate more push, because of the greater angle, while the more vertical trekking pole generates more lift.
Pacer poles do not change this basic relationship.
falcon269 said:. All the forward motion in cross country skiing originates with the poles, which allow the legs to add power. Without poles, a cross country skier would pretty much just slide his skis back and forth in place unless he adds a sideways skating motion!
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Can you explain what you mean, because I have read all the material provided on the Pacerpole site, and couldn't make sense of it at the time. Maybe I'm not seeing something here, but it seems to me the grip makes no difference on an individual's ability to exert a downward force that is transmitted through the strap or grip to the pole shaft and to the ground. You appear to be seeing something here that I'm not getting.Kitsambler said:The issue is the biomechanical advantage provided by the PacerPole handle architecture.
falcon269 said:You would be hard pressed to go straight ahead on skis without poles or a sideways pushing action, fish scales notwithstanding.
You need a lateral foot push, or poles, to cross country ski. Lacking both, you will mostly stay in one place, sliding your skis back and forth, until the friction of the fish scales gives you some momentum.Diagonal Stride
The basic diagonal stride is the heart and soul of classic XC ski technique. In fact, when most non-skiers are asked to picture XC skiing in their mind, the diagonal stride is the first image that typically pops up.
Utilizing an opposite driving leg and forward poling arm, at it's most basic level the diagonal stride looks like a sliding walk. Once perfected, the diagonal stride is one of the beautiful motions we can do on this planet. It is, quite literally, dancing on snow.
Basics:
Start without poles and on a flat area with firm tracks. This will help develop your balance and keep things easy. Now, imagine you are a child wearing socks on a newly waxed kitchen floor. You would scoot-slide across the floor using a driving motion with one leg as your opposite arm swings forward for momentum and balance. This scoot slide is the essence of the diagonal stride.
Start out with short experimental scoot slides (baby slides are just fine at first). As you get comfortable with being on the skis, progress to longer and more integrated motions. Don't worry too much about what your arms are doing at first except to make sure that you are not waving them all around. During the scoot slide, your upper body should stay relaxed, leaning slightly forward, and your shoulders should have a rounded, gorilla look just as if you were getting a good shoulder rub (not a bad idea for after your first day out on skis!).
After even as little as a few minutes gliding you should notice that if you get your weight up and over the forward ski (as opposed to sitting back just a wee bit), the ski will glide forward with quite a bit of freedom and power. Most beginners get a taste of a real gliding ski even in the first five minutes on snow. Note that this can be somewhat unsettling at first and your first instinct is going to be to sit back when you feel the ski really glide. What a professional instructor will encourage you to do is to instead "chase" that free glide out front. Although you will wobble a little more, your body will adjust with practice. Trust that the path to the beauty and power of XC ski classic technique lies in finding ways to seek out that forward glide!
One useful and very easy drill to "feel" how much you want to drive forward is to stand still on a perfectly flat area. Have your poles in your hands, plant them comfortably in front of you, and lean on them with most of your weight. Now put all your weight on one ski while drawing the other ski back behind you as straight as possible. With the leg you are standing on, flex your ankle and knee very slightly and go as far forward with your weighted hip as you can. Keep your hip and butt high (not sitting) as you go forward! That position - called a "high hip forward" position - is the ideal position for getting maximum drive out of the classic motion. Although it generally takes awhile before skiers can confidently execute this ideal position, knowing what you are after feels like when you start out can be very useful. When practicing your slide and glide always try to "lead" the motion with this high hip position.
Once you feel like you have a feeling for the motion with your legs you will want to add your poles to the mix. The key here is--do what comes natural! You know how to walk and run opposite leg-opposite arm and that is exactly what you do in skiing. If you think about the motion too much you'll screw it up...so don't think! When planting your poles try to keep your arms at shoulder-width spacing and with the pole angled down towards your feet. Your arm should have a slight bend to it when planting, then should go down smoothly past your hips and extend fully out the back. Try not to cross in front of your body with your poles (wasted effort). What you are ultimately after is a pendulum motion with a relaxed follow-through and recovery.
Double Pole
When the terrain or snow conditions make the diagonal stride too slow to be efficient you can switch to the double pole motion. Typically used on slightly downhill sections and fast flat sections, the double pole simply involves reaching ahead with both arms, planting both poles simultaneously, and poling through with both arms while keeping your legs in a relaxed, but fairly straight position. The poles should plant in the snow angled back towards your toes and with shoulder-width spacing.
When reaching forward and planting the poles, your arms should have the same position as a single forward arm in diagonal stride...that is, a slight bend to them when planting a comfortable "reach" in front of you, then pushing down smoothly past your hips and extend fully out the back. Try to make sure that you help your arms by compressing at your stomach (ever so slightly) and leaning forward at the waist. This adds power and saves arm energy.
The legs will remain fairly uninvolved in a basic double pole but as you become more comfortable with the motion, you will find yourself adding power with a subtle forward push with your hips each time you reach forward with the poles. Be sure to avoid "sitting down" when you push thru with the poles (very common error).
Since the double pole is done on faster snow or terrain, the motion will be repeated many times at varying rates of speed and with varying amounts of glide. When you feel your momentum slow and the double pole feels more difficult to complete, switch back to the diagonal stride or incorporate the more challenging double pole with a kick.
Double Pole with a Kick
This is an intermediate skill some beginners can use on flat sections or gradual uphills. The best way to think of this moition is as a gear (much like a bicycle) that lies between the diagonal stride and double pole. You begin with the same reach forward with both arms as in the double pole. However...instead of remaining quiet with your legs...when you reach forward in this technique, you add a small drive forward onto one leg. This forward drive onto one leg should look precisely the same as the position your leg is in when you drive forward onto one leg in the diagonal stride. The "back" leg should be fully extended (yet relaxed) out the back.
Once you are fully extended forward (both arms and one driving leg), you pull thru with your arms as you match the forward leg with your other leg. You then repeat the motion now driving forward onto the opposite leg (legs reversing roles).
This motion is very powerful and very useful in various terrain and snow situations. Yet, it does take a fair amount of strength, balance, and agility to do correctly. Having a professional instructor work with you on this skill is essential.
falcon269 said:You need a lateral foot push, or poles, to cross country ski. Lacking both, you will mostly stay in one place, sliding your skis back and forth,.
dougfitz said:I haven't used Pacer poles, but I have used technical poles for over a decade now, having been a single long stick user before that.Kitsambler said:What is so distinctive about the PacerPole design, apart from the very comfortable and ergonomic angled hand-grip, is the broad flange at the base of the hand-grip, which allows you to press down quite effectively, both for going uphill and for going downhill.
My observation is that there are far more people waste their money on a set of technical poles than any other single piece of kit - because they are not instructed in the correct use of the poles for trekking, or don't take the time to learn. There are good instructional videos that are easy to find on the web. The US Leki site has excellent videos explaining their use (as well as videos for how to use Nordic walking poles - which is a completely different technique).
While I don't think Pacer poles offer any real technical advantages over other poles used correctly, the Pacer poles' big advantage appears to be that they are almost impossible to use incorrectly. The design of the hand grip ensures that.
Provided you are using them, and not leaving them attached to your pack, you are getting full value from your investment.
Regards,
David, what else do you expect she would do. Of course she would promote her own product. I hardly think self-promotion would be any recommendation.Abbeydore said:I think if you sent your reply to Heather(PP designer), she would give you a very different answer.
dougfitz said:I certainly don't intend to make any outlays for Pacer poles when I don't see that they have any advantages over other brands of technical pole.
Nonetheless, I will maintain an open mind, and should I ever be in a position to try Pacer poles, I will do so.
Regards,
Do you think?So far, the only people writing "not necessarilly in favour of them" have not tried them.
PingHansen said:I imagine that their competitors hate them :wink:
Kiwi-family said:falcon269 you're a rascal.....and I just ordered a set of poles
pacer of course!
if I turn out to be the first person to use them and not like them, so be it....but they will take them back and refund my money, so it's not much of a risk really
Rebekah Scott said:I do not use poles when I walk, but I deal with plenty of pilgrims who do.
The only problem I have with Pacer Poles is how attached people are to them. Users resist leaving their poles in the entryway with Lesser Poles, for fear of losing of having them stolen. They take them along to the shower, to dinner, to bed maybe even... It´s like a young teenager in love for the first time, determined that every other boy is looking at his girl and is determined to take her away!
After a scan of this thread, you can see how downright evangelical Pacer users are. They develop their own techniques, rituals, insider terminology, diagrams and videos and "science" to support and spread their fundamental beliefs. A Pacer user can spot a fellow believer from 50 meters, and they sometimes hold little gatherings at corner tables to compare their rubber tips and accrued mileage and improved footstrike and wrist-strap angles.
If someone offers to lend you his Pacer poles, it is a deeply felt gesture. Just be careful. He may be fishing for converts, and you may soon find your trusty old walking cane is no longer enlightened enough for you... :shock:
There are plenty of pilgrims who use a simple wooden pole, and others with modern trekking poles who use them no differently and so don't get any of the benefits of having a 'high tech' device in their hands.magdelanye said:I got to be very fond of my wooden pilgrim stick and just feel kind of turned off by techno gear of any kind. Does no one use those single wooden poles anymore?
This point:PingHansen said:So what point exactly did I prove?
magdelanye said:I am getting the impression that the camino has changed a lot since I was there 5 yrs ago. I am so eager to get away from the sight of people ignoring their surroundings for their stupid phones and all of a sudden I'm nervous that this is a universal phenomenum.
This appears to be a rather selective (and misleading) interpretation of the post.PingHansen said:Ah, so it's better to ignore the surroundings using a traditional guide book, than ignoring the surroundings by reading the same book from a smart-phone or e-book reader?
I could point out that advances in technology might now offer more ways to obtain and use specific content, but they haven't yet replaced paper based technologies. To that extent, exponents of bleeding edge technologies need to realise there continues to be a place for these earlier technologies.BlackDog said:Those that are addicted to the feel of paper guides have to realise that technology has moved on just as it has from vellum rolls
BlackDog said:I didn't see anyone using their smartphones while actually walking. But there are those who, like me, use them to contain guides, reference material, ebooks, music etc and consult them in the evening and possibly at rest stops.
I'm not interested in how others conduct their camino so long it's respectful to others. Those that are addicted to the feel of paper guides have to realise that technology has moved on just as it has from vellum rolls
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
falcon269 said:I love my Pacer Poles, and in the morning darkness today, I had to retrieve them from someone who was trying to love them more!
I use them because my Parkinson's has slowed my nerve signal speed by 11%, and my balance is poor. Luis used his poles because he had one leg. We both saw our fill of nature. I hope you are not offended that we don't care what you think of our technology! I am sorry if we ruined YOUR Camino. Perhaps you can walk it again.
Falcon,
It's most disturbing to think of theives on the camino, but I am equally disturbed to think that you either misunderstood my last comment or felt it was patronizing because your irony is so off and elsewhere you have been direct.
So to be clear: I am not a purist,just mistrustful of tech and the endless comparing of toys/brands etc. maybe I dislike hyper-efficiency. f you need the poles, it's a differnt story.
I believe we are all called in different ways and whatever it takes is whatever it takes.
Merely, I prefer simplicity and living in the present, relating to my surroundings.
Certainly I do not not expect we are marching with the same program.At the same time, I do believe that as individuals we differ only in the details.I never even implied that you ruined my camino....and as I prepare to complete it next month I hate to think I have already offended someone I like.
my dad had parkinsons and i know that you are a champion on the camino.
What is referred to here as a threestep pattern in reality takes four steps to repeat, with the fourth step bringing the pole forward to re-start the pattern.newfydog said:Not one of them used the syncopated timing the Pacerpole people preach. They did a bit of that on some steep climbs, but for the most part used the threestep-plant timing you see people with walking sticks use.
dougfitz said:It would defeat the purpose of using poles to be pushing back going up steep hills, or forwards on going down.
Kitsambler said:dougfitz said:It would defeat the purpose of using poles to be pushing back going up steep hills, or forwards on going down.
Hmm. Actually, I do push back going up steep hills (assisting in the forward progress) and forwards on the downhills (resisting the forward progress), with my Pacer Poles. Doesn't seem to be defeating the purpose at all.
falcon269 said:I love my Pacer Poles, and in the morning darkness today, I had to retrieve them from someone who was trying to love them more!
I use them because my Parkinson's has slowed my nerve signal speed by 11%, and my balance is poor. Luis used his poles because he had one leg.
Pacer Poles are simply better!
We too use a single wooden stick, shaped like a shepherd's crook. We wouldn't use anything else as we like to have a free hand and not be tied up with poles, Pacer or any other make. Just our choice.magdelanye said:I got to be very fond of my wooden pilgrim stick and just feel kind of turned off by techno gear of any kind. Does no one use those single wooden poles anymore?
grayland said:The weight of the alloy Pacers do put me off. I don't fancy having to carry my wife's pacers for her on the VdlP when she is not using them.
They really do seem heavy! Maybe I should sell them and get her some carbon ones. :idea:
Lise T said:Hi all
Just a quick quesiton for the people that have bought and used the Pacer Poles on the Camino.
Did you buy the Carbon or Alloy?
The Carbon looks good because its lighter and folds down further....but the alloy is stronger if you take a tumble.
Would appreciate your thoughts
To reiterate!Pacer Poles? Please return to the thread subject....PACER POLES
Sojourner47 said:Sorry, if that's construed as a "personal attack", - not meant as such - lest some jobsworth moderator will lock this thread......
A sentiment not unique to Pacer Poles. Smoking. Talking. Cell phones. iPods. Trucks. Mouth breathers. Mullets. Cow patties. Drunks. Pick your irritant; you can find it on the Camino.they grate on me, much like grinding wool between ones back teeth
falcon269 said:Smoking. Talking. Cell phones. iPods. Trucks. Mouth breathers. Mullets. Cow patties. Drunks. Pick your irritant; you can find it on the Camino.
I once found myself walking alongside a woman who liked to use her hands while she talked. Lovely lady but she forgot she had a stick in each hand. Imagine throwing a broomstick through the spokes of a bike's front wheel while at speed; that's what happened to me when her stick found its way between my knees mid stride. Base over apex.sagalouts said:Ditto :x
oh and as the op asked "does anyone not like pacerpoles" If one is sticking to the thread and being picky it should be confined to those who don't like the things :wink:
Ian
If you order tips from them, they do toss in a second set. You can get replacements in the U.S. at REI; they are Black Diamond brand.I'd ask them to throw in a few extra sets of street feet
Go to the Pacer pole website: http://www.pacerpole.com/ and send your query to Heather Rhodes - I'm sure she will help you.Magnara said:I have used Fizen poles happily on 2 caminos, but I am intrigued by the sound of Pacer Poles - anything that helps me stay fit and happy while walking gets my attention. However, jsut as I was deciding to get some, I have just broken my left wrist very badly. Any opinion about whether that will be a problem using the Pacer Poles this time next year when we head for Le Puys? I do think the wrist strap on my Fizen might set up a problem if I use that. I know it depends how I mend, but I'm just wonderin'
You might be right if you are fairy-tapping your poles and using pole tips. Once the rubber pole tips come off, and any reasonable pressure is applied, the pole tips will penetrate soil, grass, sand, gravel etc, and on most surfaces will leave a hole, dig out a small chunk of soil etc. Sealed surfaces are not susceptible to that sort of damage, and well compacted gravel or similar surfaces is only penetrated a little, normally just by the metal tip.Kevin_A said:I would estimate that my not inconsiderable weight had more of an environmental impact - on the sendas, paths, roads, etc
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