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I stayed for 3 nights at Finisterre after walking from Burgos. On the first day while walking to the lighthouse a man commented on how nice the view was. I agreed and continued walking. The next day the same man approached me on the beach with a shell which I accepted and thanked him for. The next day I was walking on the road to the lighthouse again but was planning to go up to the hermitage and approach the lighthouse from the other side. The man drove by and gestured me to get in. I declined politely. He drove off and I carried on. At the turn off for the hermitage I turned off. When I realised the path was drive able I began to worry. I was 3/4 the way up the path and decided to go back down. I carried on round the other side and saw the mans car parked off to the side. Luckily I noticed other walkers and caught up with them. I then went over the hill and began walking down to the lighthouse. The man drove past me slowing down and looked red in the face and flustered he asked if I had been to the top. I said yes and carried on walking he drove off at this point there were lots of people in sight. I mention this story because it is the only time I felt scared when on the camino. I believe I avoided an incident with this man. I listened to my gut instinct. What was different was that he didn't introduce himself but kept turning up. It wasn't a normal camino interaction. If the other two walkers had not been ahead of me when I saw his car I am not sure what I would have done I had an urge to run back to the road and felt very vulnerable. Single women please trust your instincts. AK
I stayed for 3 nights at Finisterre after walking from Burgos. On the first day while walking to the lighthouse a man commented on how nice the view was. I agreed and continued walking. The next day the same man approached me on the beach with a shell which I accepted and thanked him for. The next day I was walking on the road to the lighthouse again but was planning to go up to the hermitage and approach the lighthouse from the other side. The man drove by and gestured me to get in. I declined politely. He drove off and I carried on. At the turn off for the hermitage I turned off. When I realised the path was drive able I began to worry. I was 3/4 the way up the path and decided to go back down. I carried on round the other side and saw the mans car parked off to the side. Luckily I noticed other walkers and caught up with them. I then went over the hill and began walking down to the lighthouse. The man drove past me slowing down and looked red in the face and flustered he asked if I had been to the top. I said yes and carried on walking he drove off at this point there were lots of people in sight. I mention this story because it is the only time I felt scared when on the camino. I believe I avoided an incident with this man. I listened to my gut instinct. What was different was that he didn't introduce himself but kept turning up. It wasn't a normal camino interaction. If the other two walkers had not been ahead of me when I saw his car I am not sure what I would have done I had an urge to run back to the road and felt very vulnerable. Single women please trust your instincts. AK
@mountaingoat999 and @GettingThere, I am puzzled about what you think there is to report to the police. @AKJ seems quite sensibly to have ensured she has not placed herself in circumstances where she might have felt she was not able to control the situation.
Her view that she has avoided an incident is speculation, and fortunately does not have to, and cannot now, be tested. According to @AKJ, on none of the occasions they spoke did he persist and maintain an unwanted conversation. She doesn't report being followed after any of these incidents by him, which in a place like Finisterre could well be coincidental as people visiting the town will generally be interested in seeing and doing the same things.
My own experience there was that I saw the same people several times over the couple of days I was there. I don't think that would be unusual, and certainly not sinister. Unless this person did something @AKJ has not revealed, I don't see what there is to report other than she took sensible precautions to ensure her safety when she didn't feel comfortable.
@mountaingoat999 and @GettingThere, I am puzzled about what you think there is to report to the police. @AKJ seems quite sensibly to have ensured she has not placed herself in circumstances where she might have felt she was not able to control the situation.
Her view that she has avoided an incident is speculation, and fortunately does not have to, and cannot now, be tested. According to @AKJ, on none of the occasions they spoke did he persist and maintain an unwanted conversation. She doesn't report being followed after any of these incidents by him, which in a place like Finisterre could well be coincidental as people visiting the town will generally be interested in seeing and doing the same things.
My own experience there was that I saw the same people several times over the couple of days I was there. I don't think that would be unusual, and certainly not sinister. Unless this person did something @AKJ has not revealed, I don't see what there is to report other than she took sensible precautions to ensure her safety when she didn't feel comfortable.
They might have not been able to do anything based on the one report but I bet if they got two or three similar reports, they would certainly at least go find the individual and talk to him. They will need each person to report the incidents though. Police will know how to deal with the reports.I agree with Doug that there isn't much the police might have done.
I would have thought that if the Police had been advised, they would have been able to tell him his behaviour, even if innocent, was unacceptable in that it caused distress.They might have not been able to done anything based on the one report
@mountaingoat999 and @GettingThere, I am puzzled about what you think there is to report to the police. @AKJ seems quite sensibly to have ensured she has not placed herself in circumstances where she might have felt she was not able to control the situation.
Her view that she has avoided an incident is speculation, and fortunately does not have to, and cannot now, be tested. According to @AKJ, on none of the occasions they spoke did he persist and maintain an unwanted conversation. She doesn't report being followed after any of these incidents by him, which in a place like Finisterre could well be coincidental as people visiting the town will generally be interested in seeing and doing the same things.
My own experience there was that I saw the same people several times over the couple of days I was there. I don't think that would be unusual, and certainly not sinister. Unless this person did something @AKJ has not revealed, I don't see what there is to report other than she took sensible precautions to ensure her safety when she didn't feel comfortable.
Really. Only because you have re-written the narrative to make it so.Sorry, Doug, but you are not a female, you are not in danger of being raped in broad daylight, you don't have those gut instincts that have saved many of us.
I'm sure this was no pilgrim: how many of us do have our cars handy at Finisterre? Local creep. And sure the police needs to know whats going on, he may follow without worse consequences one girl (who, note, was smart enough to get "safety in numbers") and he may be really dangerous if there is no one around. BTW the police calls this "grooming" in a bad way. Making the victim used to the presence. If he wanted just get acquainted with a nice girl, there was no need to follow up to the hill by roundabout. That IS creepy.
Third, let me reject the suggestion that only women have the gut instincts that protect them from dangerous situations. Engaging in this form of special pleading carries with it the suggestion that men are not qualified to have a view on these matters. I don't think so!
Sexual assault can happen to anyone, no matter your age, your sexual orientation, or your gender identity. Men and boys who have been sexually assaulted or abused may have many of the same feelings and reactions as other survivors of sexual assault, but they may also face some additional challenges because of social attitudes and stereotypes about men and masculinity. The 2014 U.S. National Crime Victimization Survey found that 38 percent of incidents of rape and other sexual violence were against men. It's not just a female concern.
The Korean females would observe behavior of men the entire walk if they for some reason we're separated from there " family" they would stay close to men they felt were "safe" until catching up to their camino family. Seemed to work very well but if you are chosen as the guardian, like many cultures you meet along the way language may be limited to pointing. Simply respect them for finding a way to stay safe.
NOBODY suggested that only women have gut instincts to protect them in dangerous situations. The suggestion was that a man cannot, by hearing a "narrative", understand or have true empathy for what women experience commonly throughout their lives, feeling unsafe because of unwanted attention by males - especially those we don't know. Some of that attention may be harmless, but sometimes it is not. It is always worrisome when you politely tell or show a man that you are not interested and you feel that you are still being followed. Unless you've been there, you don't know what it's like.
I am gratified that some men here understand that and don't feel intimidated or defensive by this scenario. These men are our
comrades and we appreciate them!
Sure, men can be victims as well. But come on, look at the statistics. Welcome to the real world. Give me a break. Back in my early 20s, when I traveled around Spain, daily I was catcalled, followed and often even physically groped by strange men. I often felt I had to watch my back and hide from predators. Some men cluelessly thought that I should be flattered by this attention. The word "No" meant nothing to them. What man here has ever experienced this??
I realize that I am not qualified to second-guess or "have a view on" what it's like to be a male or to be a non-white person who faces discrimination in a mainly white population. Trying to maintain or pretend that one does just proves how clueless and insensitive one is.
Again, I want to thank all the men here who are sensitive, observant and SECURE in themselves enough to listen, understand, and support the women here who only want the right to travel the Camino independently in peace.
Jill
Back to Camino4me, she even received at least one scathing private message in her inbox. Yes, I was listening to her. An Asian-American woman herself, she was aghast at the dirth of concern by many forum members. Recently, I read through her research, and it tallies numbers of women being groped, flashed, and raped while on pilgrimage in Spain. She did not tally the men who were groped, flashed, etc. Perhaps that is someone else's project.
Yes we teach our daughters to be kind for more years than we teach caution, they grow up in such a quick time. We have become such a world community we see daughters leave the protection of good families early. Your point is well taken Time for this grampa to have this discution with my children. With what seems like fewer marriages in societies as well creating more independent woman you best be prepared for more single obnoxious men. It is that companionship that keeps us (Men) somewhat under control. Not to say that societies don't adjust but the lack of good role models creates some of these issues.An added challenge for many women is that we receive a lot of training, growing up, to always be nice, polite and to avoid hurting anybody's feelings. We even have a tendency to start conversations with "I'm sorry..." This makes it hard sometimes to stand up for ourselves when we need to.
I was on the Camino in June and had not been aware of these posts, so I now see there is a lot of history I need to familiarize myself with. I wonder if the research you are referring to is on the forum somewhere or available in some other place?
I have read a recent article in El País, for me the premier Spanish newspaper, and the story refers to a compilation of all violent crimes on the Camino. If I am understanding the scope of the collection, they seem to report that since the Camino's renaissance, whenever that is deemed to be, there have been 15 violent crimes on all of the caminos (mostly rapes but it also must include the guy with the knife near Guillena on the Vdlp). Is that consistent with camino4me's research? Thanks, Debrita. Buen camino, Laurie
Thank you CaminoDebrita, for this post and the one you wrote a while ago.
I just went back to the original posts for a reality check and found it unnerving (knowing what happened) to read the content.
and at the same time I have been disturbed by the language on both sides, frankly.
I'm going offline soon for a week and find myself hoping that when I get back there won't be angry people who've said "I've had it with this, " and left for good. That would be sad. As are the defections that have already happened.
So whatever our opinions it would be a very good idea for us all to take a deep breath before attacking others personally or dismissing others. No matter what side of any discussion we fall on. It's divisive and doesn't help anyone. Nor does it add to the discussion.
Of course, we all need to feel we can speak our minds. But there are ways of doing that that are skillful, and ways that are not.
The discussions will continue...and so I'm glad for a gender balance amongst the mods. It does seem to make a difference.
Hopefully we can make their work easier by being civilized with each other.
I have been harassed on the Camino and other places, too. I am afraid I am one of the people who spoke against "fear-mongering," back when the Denise story first broke.
Pilgrims disappear every day, and they always reappear sometime. They always did.
It was hard, seeing people in very dangerous places many hundreds of miles away being frightened about coming to Spain or the Camino. I kinda take it personally when people do that, because I live here, and I love this place, and it is not a bit scary. Besides, some of the people posting really seemed to ENJOY being scared, and scaring others. And that's just downright nuts, IMHO. (If you want to have fun being scared, go to the movies.)
But as time went on and more women came out with more stories of harassment and attacks, I started to get mad. Not at the scared-ness, but at the lax attitudes of law enforcement, and the attitudes here that make it somehow OK to harass women, especially foreign women. I started to make some noise on Spanish forums, and was promptly shouted down for being a foreigner who lives here but doesn't properly appreciate life in a "free country!" (where you're not supposed to talk about these things until the guy is convicted of a crime. As if!)
Anyway, when Denise's body was found and the killer confessed, I took it much harder than I thought I might. I cried for her, and her family. And I cried for us, the camino people. I was very dis-illusioned. I had been enjoying the illusion of a violence-free place for women to walk, with just a few harmless pervs here and there. And so they are not just perverts and creeps. They can also be very dangerous criminals.
And so I apologize for not listening better to the women who first posted their experiences, and for being, or appearing to be, unsympathetic.
I still have little time for scaredy-cats and fear-mongers. But I know the horror of unwelcome attention and the cold chill of realizing a situation could go very bad, very fast.
The bad policing that went on this summer is giving Spain a gut-check. God knows if anyone will do anything.
I am on the board of the Fraternidad Internacional del Camino de Santiago. This week we proposed the Ministry of the Interior and Ministry of Culture work with French authorities to develop a police and/or emergency response force dedicated to investigating and preventing crimes and accidents specifically on the caminos -- aka Camino Cops.
It's only an idea. But the more I hear of these reports, as well as scams and robberies, it seems like a community of 200,000 oughtta have their safety looked-after.
the thing is, there's no knowing how many other reports about this person there a) have been or b) will be. but if no one reports the incidents, the police never know.
...Anyway, when Denise's body was found and the killer confessed, I took it much harder than I thought I might. I cried for her, and her family. And I cried for us, the camino people. I was very dis-illusioned. I had been enjoying the illusion of a violence-free place for women to walk, with just a few harmless pervs here and there. And so they are not just perverts and creeps. They can also be very dangerous criminals.
And so I apologize for not listening better to the women who first posted their experiences, and for being, or appearing to be, unsympathetic.
I still have little time for scaredy-cats and fear-mongers. But I know the horror of unwelcome attention and the cold chill of realizing a situation could go very bad, very fast.
The bad policing that went on this summer is giving Spain a gut-check. God knows if anyone will do anything.
I am on the board of the Fraternidad Internacional del Camino de Santiago. This week we proposed the Ministry of the Interior and Ministry of Culture work with French authorities to develop a police and/or emergency response force dedicated to investigating and preventing crimes and accidents specifically on the caminos -- aka Camino Cops.
It's only an idea. But the more I hear of these reports, as well as scams and robberies, it seems like a community of 200,000 oughtta have their safety looked-after.
If you have something happen to you never feel you can't write about it & please report it quickly to the local authorities.
By putting it on this forum you may spare another the same pain coming up behind you.
We have moderators that do their best. But they make the decisions of what should be appropriate. I see a trend that victims should not express bad experiences. For those that disagree feel free to PM me.
Keith
This is where we need to draw some lines.
We don't all need to hear all the horror stories "live" from the camino. I am sad to hear these stories, but I don' t think Ma and Pa in Peoria are benefitting.
The point of all this is, REPORT THESE INCIDENTS to POLICE, and if you can, to the local Pilgrim Amigos group and/or the tourist office. If enough people make enough noise, something might be done. Do not go in expecting a reaction -- just report it and move on.
So many hard questions here. I agree with Rebekah about the importance of reporting behavior to the police. But I think I disagree (still working through this one) that the forum shouldn't contain all these reports.
On the other current thread on this issue, about the incident near Guillena, someone weighed in with the realization that this same incident in this same place has happened recently to another woman, who appears not to have reported it. Once we start hearing stuff like that, it goes from an isolated frightening incident to something that clearly needs official attention. But -- and this goes back to Rebekah's drumbeat -- if women don't report, nothing ever happens. Knowing that this is more than an isolated incident, I would change my behavior if I were walking from Guillena today.
But clearly there's a line, just like Reb says. On that same Guillena thread, there's a report of rude and crass behavior to pilgrims by some young ruffians outside Pamplona. I doubt that the police have the time or interest to follow up on that, but I'm not denying it was a very unpleasant experience. The victim describing that incident doesn't appear to have reported it and I think that was appropriate in that case.
This recent shift in attitude and apparent blossoming of bad behavior on the camino is similar to what happened a few years ago in my university town. For years and years, the University did nothing to publicize incidents on campus. Sure we knew about bad things that happened but we didn't hear about it from the university, we heard about it in the local paper. Students tend not to read the local paper. Parents mounted a campaign (many of them in Peoria, no doubt) and the university started sending emails to everyone to describe all reported campus crimes involving either major theft, violence, or any sexual assault. The initial reaction was one of fear, since many students had thought they were in that Disneyland zone, but we soon realized that this stuff had been going on for years and years and that now we had more awareness about what our actual risks were and could also help in reporting information that might help solve the crime.
Once the initial shock about crime on the Camino subsides, I think we will all walk more comfortably because the other point is that the Camino is still one of the safest places on the planet. 15 violent crimes in decades on thousands and thousands of kms on different Camino paths, and millions of people walking is still a shockingly low crime rate, at least for those of us who live in urbanized areas.
Buen camino, Laurie
I was inclined to agree with Rebekah on the above post, but then some good arguments were put forth for having the information available to us, as we walk, so we can be better prepared. The problem I see is in maintaining some quality control of the information reported, and organizing it in a way that we can use. Otherwise it would leave me reading various threads and making notes on my Brierley maps (as I do for recommended albergues or hazards such as bad mud). I would end up with maps filled with "exhibitionist" between Point A and Point B, "rude children" between C and D, and "suspicious vehicle" between E and F. That would get out of hand very quickly and I would have a lousy feeling about it.This is where we need to draw some lines.
We don't all need to hear all the horror stories "live" from the camino. I am sad to hear these stories, but I don' t think Ma and Pa in Peoria are benefitting.
The point of all this is, REPORT THESE INCIDENTS to POLICE, and if you can, to the local Pilgrim Amigos group and/or the tourist office. If enough people make enough noise, something might be done. Do not go in expecting a reaction -- just report it and move on.
Some of the narratives were rumor and hearsay, and this was rightly pointed out, especially to understand why certain actions could not be taken in response. That does not mean that the accounts were "dismissed" as untrue or unworthy of consideration. Similarly, I felt that some fears were over reactionary, and agreed with the posts that concluded that the camino is probably safer than our home cities. That does not mean that I "dismissed" the fears that were reported. On a final point, there was a "call to action" that was not very clear. When people disagreed with that proposed action, they were dismissed as dismissers of the fears. Unfortunately, these subtleties of logic are often overlooked in internet discussions.They were not organized in one place, and the veracity of some of the "narratives" was dismissed as "rumor" and "hearsay". At the same time, several women were showing apprehension and concern about their own Caminos, but these fears were dismissed (by forum members) as being over reactionary, and as fear mongering.
Yes, exactly.I think C clearly was suggesting a locked incident report thread to avoid all the debate and arguement not restricting the reports themselves. Many of the reports added to the original threads get lost in all the replies.
I'm not sure if the above was referring to my post or not, because silence was certainly not my suggestion. Having a place to report and to monitor incidents would be quite useful.We will continue to debate this but the folks doing these things will get bolder & if silence is your practice the result for those following can turn more violent. Let the monitors decide if they want to restrict this topic of victim speech. What is the concern is it bad press? Or that you simply do not want to hear about disturbing actions? Many complain about too many walking, yet this topic will reduce numbers, so are the fears economic?
there are posts that create the idea. If a victim of a violent crime felt they would be verbally assaulted by simply warning others On this forum it would isolate them even more. The fear created by violent acts is debilitating so I like the idea of a locked thread. I also suggest a female who has some life experience moderate.Yes, exactly.
I'm not sure if the above was referring to my post or not, because silence was certainly not my suggestion. Having a place to report and to monitor incidents would be quite useful.
We will continue to debate this but the folks doing these things will get bolder & if silence is your practice the result for those following can turn more violent. Let the monitors decide if they want to restrict this topic of victim speech. What is the concern is it bad press? Or that you simply do not want to hear about disturbing actions? Many complain about too many walking, yet this topic will reduce numbers, so are the fears economic?
We will continue to debate this but the folks doing these things will get bolder & if silence is your practice the result for those following can turn more violent. Let the monitors decide if they want to restrict this topic of victim speech. What is the concern is it bad press? Or that you simply do not want to hear about disturbing actions? Many complain about too many walking, yet this topic will reduce numbers, so are the fears economic?
Wow that is re writing what I wrote. I will stand by what I have writtenI'm not sure, but I think you're suggesting that if the forum were to shut off discussion on these incidents, that somehow the perpetrators will get bolder and the violence will increase. If that's what you're suggesting, I think that is attributing way too much influence to the forum, which is visited by a miniscule fraction of the total number of people walking Caminos. I would agree that failure to report these incidents to the police can have the result you describe, and I think that is what our focus on the forum should be -- to encourage people to report, report, report.
I am not suggesting that the forum shouldn't post information about crime and safety. But I understand the concern -- that instead of producing awareness, we produce fear. Violent crime on the Camino is not new, but it is now and always has been extremely rare. On my first Camino in 2000, there was a rape near Logroño and I was flashed coming down the Alto del Perdón. There was no forum then, and I'm sure my experiences were not the only ones that happened that year or in any of the other subsequent years that I have been fondled and flashed, all of which happened before 2006 or 2007 (nothing since then). I guess we can't control the way people process and react to information, but it would be a shame if a lot of people draw totally unreasonable conclusions from the information that is being posted. Buen camino, Laurie
I thought somewhat like @peregrina2000 and still don't quite understand what you meant.Wow that is re writing what I wrote. I will stand by what I have written
Also, @peregrina2000 indicated that she was not sure of what you meant. Therefore it would be helpful to clarify, rather than just dismiss her reply.Wow that is re writing what I wrote. I will stand by what I have written
Ok "the folks doing these things will get bolder" means that they will get bolder if no authority curbs the behavior.Also, @peregrina2000 indicated that she was not sure of what you meant. Therefore it would be helpful to clarify, rather than just dismiss her reply.
I understood those concepts and don't think any of us would disagree. The confusion is about which "you" you are addressing in different places and whether you are talking about "silence" (no reporting at all) or having some limits to discussion on this forum.Ok "the folks doing these things will get bolder" means that they will get bolder if no authority curbs the behavior.
"If silence is your practice then those following "(other pilgrims)" Can Turn more violent" the assaulter can get worse.
I agree, and can also understand the logic of @Cclearly's suggestion of locked threads with single incident posts. However I'm not sure, if that were done, how it would allow people to post "Oh but that happened to me in the same place", without starting a separate and unconnected thread. I think the value of the thread format is that it allows for this a well as simply informing of a single incident. The mods don't have an easy task but I think you have the balance about right. And "fear"? Well maybe, but I don't think information or debate creates it. People are responsible for their own emotional reactions. And if these discussions cause some to fear walking alone, and to seek out walking partners (as more are doing) then that's not so bad. I certainly haven't seen much of what I'd call "fear mongering", and on the whole the comments on threads like these mostly either express sympathy, gratitude for the information, or disagreement with aspects of the debate (which is healthy too and shouldn't be prevented! )I'm not sure, but I think you're suggesting that if the forum were to shut off discussion on these incidents, that somehow the perpetrators will get bolder and the violence will increase. If that's what you're suggesting, I think that is attributing way too much influence to the forum, which is visited by a miniscule fraction of the total number of people walking Caminos. I would agree that failure to report these incidents to the police can have the result you describe, and I think that is what our focus on the forum should be -- to encourage people to report, report, report.
I am not suggesting that the forum shouldn't post information about crime and safety. But I understand the concern -- that instead of producing awareness, we produce fear. Violent crime on the Camino is not new, but it is now and always has been extremely rare. On my first Camino in 2000, there was a rape near Logroño and I was flashed coming down the Alto del Perdón. There was no forum then, and I'm sure my experiences were not the only ones that happened that year or in any of the other subsequent years that I have been fondled and flashed, all of which happened before 2006 or 2007 (nothing since then). I guess we can't control the way people process and react to information, but it would be a shame if a lot of people draw totally unreasonable conclusions from the information that is being posted. Buen camino, Laurie
I used "you" in one sentence, ask yourself that question. I am asking all who read to ask that of themselves. Then decide if the victims voice is more important than a negative reply.I understood those concepts and don't think any of us would disagree. The confusion is about which "you" you are addressing in different places and whether you are talking about "silence" (no reporting at all) or having some limits to discussion on this forum.
I am not deliberately being dense; the uncertainty is real.
I agree, Kanga. I think that in reporting to the police on such incidents can not miss - still they can decide whether the incident requires special attention or not. I like to walk alone and Guardia civil presence is welcome - feel could be safe and more relaxedReport to the police, please. It is heartening that currently we are seeing a much increased Guardia civil presence on the Camino Frances - about every second day we are seeing a police vehicle driving along the track. Hopefully it has at least a slight deterrent effect.
I agree, Kanga. I think that in reporting to the police on such incidents can not miss - still they can decide whether the incident requires special attention or not. I like to walk alone and Guardia civil presence is welcome - feel could be safe and more relaxed
Thank you for this post and for saying what I have been thinking. I grew very weary of this forum when it became obvious some people wanted to censor what others were saying. I have felt for a long time that it needs to be said that the Camino is like everywhere else- it is safe, until it isn't. I walked this April in total calm and without incident but in retrospect I was in a fantasy bubble and was merely lucky. Next time I will walk like a wolf with all my instincts alert. Thanks again for writing. Knowledge is power! And communication of knowledge even more so. KateLaurie:
Thanks for your even response to what has been a rather heated discussion.
First of all, I live in rural America, where crime is low. That said, I used to live in a war zone. All of my responses come from a person who lives in peace now, but I had to live for a decade aware of the crowds, avoiding crowds, etc. (bomb possibilities, muggings, kidnappings). So, I'm kind of a jaded old bird. Here we go.
In April, several women were coming forward in the safety threads with stories of flashing and public exhibitionists. We also heard the story of a woman who had been tasered, but got away. Then there was a rape story. These threads all came up around the same timeline, as women came forward with various stories. They were not organized in one place, and the veracity of some of the "narratives" was dismissed as "rumor" and "hearsay". At the same time, several women were showing apprehension and concern about their own Caminos, but these fears were dismissed (by forum members) as being over reactionary, and as fear mongering. This caused a chasm on the forum: those who were concerned about disappearances and "narratives" and those who dismissed the problems. There was a middle group who tried to listen to both sides; I was in that group. Around that time, however, I came close to quitting the forum altogether, as it became somewhat "popular" to dismiss the women with the most concern. It was, in my opinion (of course), tantamount to bullying. Sorry, folks. It was not a good time.
Of course, being flashed, groped, or "hold my hand, then I'll pull you into me and kiss you" are not violent crimes, are they? Still and yet, they are annoying and bothersome.
If you would like me to put you in contact with Camino4me, she told me that she would share her links and information with me. I, for one, am no longer interested in perusing them, as I completely believe that the narratives are true. Women have been flashed, groped, kissed, and--in at least one situation--worse. My response to all of the above is the same as always: knowledge is power. Pack for fun, but don't forget to pack your brain.
I hope that all people travel with earbuds out (mostly) and with an eye to helping one another.
If you use the Search at the top of the page, you can find quite a few opinions on pepper spray. It usually comes up somewhere in the middle of the safety threads and turns into a heated debate. For example, the topic is introduced about halfway down This thread.Question: would it be advisable to carry mace or pepper spray? I haven't heard this mentioned.
If you use the Search at the top of the page, you can find quite a few opinions on pepper spray. It usually comes up somewhere in the middle of the safety threads and turns into a heated debate. For example, the topic is introduced about halfway down This thread.
Personally, I have never carried pepper spray or anything like it, and would not start doing it on the Camino. I'd be far more likely to incapacitate myself.
SabineP
a bit simple is the term most would use.
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Thank you for this post and for saying what I have been thinking. I grew very weary of this forum when it became obvious some people wanted to censor what others were saying. I have felt for a long time that it needs to be said that the Camino is like everywhere else- it is safe, until it isn't. I walked this April in total calm and without incident but in retrospect I was in a fantasy bubble and was merely lucky. Next time I will walk like a wolf with all my instincts alert. Thanks again for writing. Knowledge is power! And communication of knowledge even more so. Kate
Thank you Laurie for your wise counsel. I had one unpleasant encounter in Castrojeriz in April this year when I was eating my picnic lunch in the square. ...
I think I am finally starting to understand what seemed to be a big gap in attitude among the women. I don't intend any insults or disrespect here, but I am surprised to be hearing that women walked alone in what thecatalanway describes as a "fantasy bubble." That, in retrospect, was a big mistake, so it's good that people are getting the message....
So I think we can now all be on the same page. The Camino is not a fantasy bubble, if you walk alone you have to be alert, but it would be a real shame to extrapolate from that statement that you have to walk in fear. Buen camino, Laurie
So I think we can now all be on the same page. The Camino is not a fantasy bubble, if you walk alone you have to be alert, but it would be a real shame to extrapolate from that statement that you have to walk in fear. Buen camino, Laurie
What is this? We're talking through a serious problem, not just being flippant.What is this? A camino horror thread? Sorry to say this, but Stuff happens and creepy people exist and yes, even on the camino. Its just like normal life.
Use common sense and instict and most likely you will be fine, at home and on the camino.
What is this? We're talking through a serious problem, not just being flippant.
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