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Thank you! Odd that it is so hard to get more info on it, isn't it?See for example this account from El Corrego Gallego.es
dated 20.09.2011 which mentions that in ancient Roman Hispania the path of Janus began at the templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), and ended at the Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).
" Según varios estudiosos, en la antigua Hispania el sendero romano de Jano nacía en el templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), para morir en el Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).
Cuando corría el siglo I, los peregrinos que ponían rumbo a Lugo, alcanzando las costas hispánicas desde Roma, se dirigían al templo del citado Venus Pyrinea.
Venus daba acogida igualmente a los navegantes que zarpaban desde Roma al Finis Terrae. De aquí partía la ruta Callis Ianus, más tarde Camino de Santiago de Compostela"
Hi @Chacharm, I found this post of yours via Google as I was also searching for more research done on the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Would you mind sharing the name of this documentary? Sounds very interesting!Just after I returned home from my Camino in 2012 I saw a documentary on The Camino that said that long before St. James lived and died the Romans required people in newly acquired lands to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to become true citizens of Rome. As that was really difficult for the people of what is today Spain, they allowed for a pilgrimage from the shrine of Janus to the Shrine of Venus (or maybe it was the other way around). One Shrine was located near SJPP and the other near Santiago. The doc also made reference to the concha/scallop shell as the symbol of Venus and said that there were remains of one or the other shrine somewhere on the Camino. Because completion granted citizenship pilgrims needed proof that they had walked its entirety (sellos on a letter of reference from a Roman official at the beginning and the end) and food and shelter businesses appeared along the route.
It also went on at length about the ley line running between the two places.
Has anyone else read about or heard about this? I can't find anything online about it. Veddy interesting if true.
cj330,Hi @Chacharm, I found this post of yours via Google as I was also searching for more research done on the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Would you mind sharing the name of this documentary? Sounds very interesting!
AFAIK the pre-Christian pilgrimage, if it could be called that, was to Fisterra -- to conflate it, and the Roman roads network, with the Camino is IMO mistaken.
@mspath I'm very sorry to hear that....cj330,
I share your and Chacharm's interest in the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Unfortunately Chacharm was last on this forum in August 2019.
I think you missed my point ...I very much disagree.
Feel free to explain it better thenI think you missed my point ...
I carefully read the text in the first link. There is talk of myth, legends, could, possibly, ... I did not detect one historical reference to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert, let alone numerous such historical references.I very much disagree. There are numerous historical references to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert.
you can find some information here:
from the Xunta de Galicia:
https://xacopedia.com/ara_solis
That's why I shared multipleI carefully read the text in the first link. There is talk of myth, legends, could, possibly, ... I did not detect one historical reference to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert, let alone numerous such historical references.
Is it worth carefully reading the text in the other links if one is interested in such historical references?
This is not a historical reference.Según varios estudiosos
Really? I did not even bother to google for any sources. I vaguely remember that I did it some time ago. I probably even read the source in Latin. Correct me if my memory fails me but I guess that this Brutus is Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus and all he is famous for in this context is the fact that he made a written remark about finis terrae, the end of the world, but he does not even mean the cape, he means the whole area that is indeed the end of Hispania when seen from Italy and from Rome. Nobody has ever reported that they saw a Phoenician altar there. While you quote from the website of some Camino tour guides called Adventure Camino. This is fantasy, it's entertainment, like any kind of fiction. Enjoy it for what it is! I'm sure it's fun.Brutus became the first Roman general to reach Finisterre and to marvel at the Phoenician Altar to the Sun Ara Solis
Or perhaps read what he typed again?Feel free to explain it better then
Below is one of the historical references you are looking for. A Roman historian with the name Florus describes military expeditions and other events that had taken place about one hundred years before his time. He tells us of a Roman military leader named Brutus who had advanced with his soldiers to the north western region of what is now Spain and saw a spectacular sunset somewhere near the coast. No mention of an altar anywhere, let alone of Druid priests and Celtic pilgrims. Not even mention of a cape named End of the World. Now tell me which of these two narratives is the more fascinating one? For me, Florus wins hands down over Adventure Camino.historical references
Thanks for clarifying, although I'm still not sure why "to conflate it, and the Roman roads network, with the Camino is [IMO] mistaken." ?Or perhaps read what he typed again?
What JP said was that some form of ritual journey to Finisterre has been going on for rather a long time. Well before Christianity and most certainly before the fortuitously timed discovery of the purported remains of St James.
Geography is largely fixed and beyond debate and so, significance being placed on the westernmost part of, to some, the known world is quite understandable, if not predictable.,
There are two things that need to be kept apart: What people want to believe about the past and what is known historical fact. If you don't know what that is, I picked up this definition the internet: A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"then why can those two things not be "conflated"?
Thanks for the passive-aggressive language lesson, but it's not neededThere are two things that need to be kept apart: What people want to believe about the past and what is known historical fact. If you don't know what that is, I picked up this definition the internet: A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"
You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.
About sources: Indicate them precisely and in detail. Not even scholarly works are always reliable because they do not always check the primary source (that would be a monstrous work) but quote another book or article. Which had quoted another book or article ...
The last historical fact that you quoted was the musings of some guy writing 100 years after the event happened. How is that fact? Sounds more like hearsay.A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"
And I am glad that you picked up on it! That's why I made a point of mentioning that Florus wrote a good hundred years after the events that he describes. We don't even know whether Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus ever reached what is now known as Finisterre. He may or may not have seen a fantastic sunset over the sea. What I quoted is a historical reference. Which is what the poster asked for and one of the very few we have in this context. The other ones in this context (I would need to google again) are Pliny and Ptolemy, and they are even more vague about the location of an end of the world point and an altar.The last historical fact that you quoted was the musings of some guy writing 100 years after the event happened. How is that fact?
I'm glad that you cleared that up. You'd like to have a bit of real ancient historical backup for it, though? Why? The contemporary Camino de Santiago is a modern creation, people can do it and feel about it any way they want. So is this about perception, how other people's perception and your perception match? Or whether some people have a lower opinion of how other people see their Camino? Yep, happens. It would not bother me and I would not try to persuade them otherwise.My previous question wasn't about the historical references.
It was about why, if someone feels more spiritual reward and progress from ending in Finisterre than in Santiago because their spiritual practice doesn't match up with the Catholic tradition, is that less valid of a "Camino"?
What you quoted was an academic reference.And I am glad that you picked up on it! That's why I made a point of mentioning that Florus wrote a good hundred years after the events that he describes. We don't even know whether Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus ever reached what is now known as Finisterre. He may or may not have seen a fantastic sunset over the sea. What I quoted is a historical reference. Which is what the poster asked for and one of the very few we have in this context. The other ones in this context (I would need to google again) are Pliny and Ptolemy, and they are even more vague about the location of an end of the world point and an altar.
What the current narrative of a sun altar and a pilgrimage to it is based on and expanded upon are works of Galician authors of the 19th century and the books and articles and blogs of the contemporary Camino boom.
Let me just end this part of the discussion by saying that one of my pastimes is learning about how myths are created and how they develop over time. Watching this in near-real time is irresistibly fascinating for me.What you quoted was an academic reference.
It is impossible to separate history from the people who wrote it.
There are no facts, just someone expressing an opinion for there own purposes.
I thought that it might interest you.Let me just end this part of the discussion by saying that one of my pastimes is learning about how myths are created and how they develop over time. Watching this in near-real time is irresistibly fascinating for me.
A 'serious' book - I did use quotes - is a book that I find interesting and worth reading and many others boring.Oh, btw, what is a serious book?
Wow, quotes. Do you mean that you find other books boring or are you assuming what someone else might find interesting or not?A 'serious' book - I did use quotes - is a book that I find interesting and worth reading and many others boring.
I enjoy a meaningful online debate but I'd like to share what I was thinking just now while I was cooking my lunch, and this opportunity is as good as any. What I had learnt and adopted as a general attitude while walking the long walk to Santiago: that I don't have to tell anybody why I am doing this and I don't need to share what I think and what I know about it; and, but that was a little harder, that I can let people say what they believe to be a fact and I won't say anything. For example, offline, ie 'in real life', I leave people in their belief that the castle that they photograph in Ponferrada was built by the Templars. After all, it says so in the guidebooks. Both they and I are happier like this. And that's what it is about: feeling happy or at least happier, isn't?Wow, quotes. Do you mean that you find other books boring or are you assuming what someone else might find interesting or not?
Whoever said or wrote the above: No, didn't happen. At least I have never heard of it. Happy to be corrected. Anyone? It is an astonishing misunderstanding or wilful misinterpretation of the word peregrinus in Roman times. It does not mean pilgrim. You don't need to know much about Roman history and law and you don't need to know Latin to inform yourself about the meaning of the word in this context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_(Roman)I saw a documentary on The Camino that said that long before St. James lived and died the Romans required people in newly acquired lands to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to become true citizens of Rome. As that was really difficult for the people of what is today Spain, they allowed for a pilgrimage from the shrine of Janus to the Shrine of Venus (or maybe it was the other way around). One Shrine was located near SJPP and the other near Santiago.
Me ? I said nothing of the sort.What JP said was that some form of ritual journey to Finisterre has been going on for rather a long time. Well before Christianity and most certainly before the fortuitously timed discovery of the purported remains of St James.
Exactly.You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical facts. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.
It's not clear to me what your conception of "historical fact" is...... The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.I'm glad that you cleared that up. You'd like to have a bit of real ancient historical backup for it, though? Why? The contemporary Camino de Santiago is a modern creation, people can do it and feel about it any way they want. So is this about perception, how other people's perception and your perception match? Or whether some people have a lower opinion of how other people see their Camino? Yep, happens. It would not bother me and I would not try to persuade them otherwise.
It's interesting to explore but it does not matter what the premise or 'ideological' foundation of the Camino de Santiago is and what these pilgrims believed to be true. The narrative underpinning the Saint James story is of no importance in this context. We are discussing whether pilgrimage routes existed during certain periods of time and not how they came about. There is ample proof that the Christian Camino to Santiago existed since at least the 1100s. Numerous documentary sources of all kinds including travel reports from pilgrims who are even known by name, in addition to diplomats and traders who travelled on the same roads and their names and business dealings. Buildings. Art. Nothing of the sort exists for any 'predecessor' 'pilgrimage route'.It's not clear to me what your conception of "historical fact" is...... The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.
It's all made up, the pilgrimage to Santiago taking pre-existing routes as its natural infrastructure. Roads (Roman or otherwise) are not a pilgrimage, just a means to that end.That's an interesting dichotomy.
Exactly my point. Why does this matter? Why construct a pre-Roman pseudo-history that is simply unconstructable.Does it really matter? That is up to each and every one of us.
Apologies.Me ? I said nothing of the sort.
Whichever pre-Christian journeys may have taken place to Fisterra, whether for pagan ritual purposes, or funerary, or simply touristic -- and the latter has never ceased -- they have very dubious connection with the Way of Saint James, which only came into being many centuries later, and leads to a different place.
The Camino has as little pagan origin as the Ways to Rome, Jerusalem, Lourdes, or Fátima.
That there was a ritualistic path to Fisterra is likely ; but it was not the Camino.
Although to be fair, if Saint James did in fact make this journey from Jerusalem, then clearly Fisterra is where he would have gone to. But the Camino leads elsewhere.
I agree, that's why I don't understand why people seem to get upset when people talk about pre-Christian influences on the Camino!It's all made up, the pilgrimage to Santiago taking pre-existing routes as its natural infrastructure. Roads (Roman or otherwise) are not a pilgrimage, just a means to that end.
What people did before us, going back to the Neolithic and before, is anyone's guess.
It really doesn't matter, because whatever meaning the Camino has for each of us is something individual, and valuable in and of itself
I agree! and yet, several people earlier in the post got very upset from people pointing out pre-Christian influences, hence why I'm making the argument. If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.Does it really matter? That is up to each and every one of us. We can research - to any depth we might feel inclined, the history of the Camino de Santiago and what was there before, but in the end it is the individual who chooses to believe what they want to take from it. We walk on the Camino with so many others; all of us have different reasons, beliefs and views for doing it, and yet we all find the kindness, generosity, and camaraderie because of the Camino.
Couldn't agree moreI agree! and yet, several people earlier in the post got very upset from people pointing out pre-Christian influences, hence why I'm making the argument. If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.
You may want to have a talk with the Catholic Church then.You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical facts. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.
Assigning "meaning" is what we individually should be allowed to do. Finding and describing historical evidence is a separate matter - various standards of research generally are applied.If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.
Interesting. While reading my morning news I read an article in the Guardian about scratch lines in hominid teeth. It seems that pre-human hominid teeth have for some time been found with longitudinal scratches in them and researchers have decided that these scratches are evidence of the use of tools and were said to be unique.various standards of research generally are applied.
The entire structure of the camino is based on a complex network of routes leading to a Sanctuary in Galicia, that has come into being for reasons discovered in History. Some too might disagree with your characterisation of the nature of this pilgrim's Way.The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.
To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset", it is to point out that such things do not characterise the Camino either historically or today.I agree, that's why I don't understand why people seem to get upset when people talk about pre-Christian influences on the Camino!
Nice distinction.To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset"
OMG.On the 12th of May, 2019 Doughnut stepped out of his vessel at Madrid airport and was heard to exclaim "I hereby declare that I have discovered Spain and I claim it for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand in the name of Jacinda Adern, Prime Minister".
Later during an interview to report on this momentous occasion Doughnut was reported as saying "It is our intention to send missionaries in the form of ex All Black rugby players to bring our civilisation to the welcoming Spanish people".
"We think that the Spanish people will be so grateful to us that in future they will declare a national holiday on the anniversary of this day and they will call it Doughnut Day
Exactly.To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset", it is to point out that such things do not characterise the Camino either historically or today.
There is also a lack of emotional distance and impartiality in some of these exchanges. When I detect it and it's a bit too much for my taste I quietly bail out of the exchange.There seems a cultural creep across the spectrum - away from understanding of nuance and being able to withstand healthy disagreement, towards black and white thinking and intolerance of any dissenting viewpoints
Kathar1na,There is also a lack of emotional distance and impartiality in some of these exchanges. When I detect it and it's a bit too much for my taste I quietly bail out of the exchange.
Some of the narratives in connection with the Camino de Santiago are fascinating. Not because of the narrative itself but because of the time when it was created and evolved and to which period of time it referrs to, what motivated, or even still motivates, people to embellish and expand these narratives and what their mindset must have been like. To use a less controversial and emotion-loaded example, take the Roland narrative or the narrative of Charlemagne's dream. You'd think the narrative dates from the time when these events were said to have happened. Not so. They date from many centuries later and were backdated.
The timelines confused me considerably at first because most contemporary written material does not allow you see this - and the writers are presumably not even aware of it themselves. They present all the narratives in the chronological order of the (narrated) events.
PS: Reading through the above text to check on grammar errors or typos, I'm thinking: Probably a bit of a confusing explanation.
Did I mention already that I recently bought yet another book by Denise Péricard-Méa?
No. Do tell!Did I mention already that I recently bought yet another book by Denise Péricard-Méa?
Yes you are correct, this gets to be annoying. I had a similar experience once as part of a focus group. One person was stuck on a particular thing and everytime we tried to move on they kept bringing the conversation back to themselves. In the end we just had to address it with the person so we could move on.In reading through this interesting thread I am reminded of a minor incident which occurred when I was walking my first camino. I was staying overnight at the albergue Tosantos and had been informed of an arranged visit to a chapel built into the hillside above Tosantos and known as (here I am relying on my Brierley from 2015) "Our Lady of the Crag Ermita de la Virgen de la Pena." I signed up for this visit, which was led by a local woman, expecting to hear what she knew of traditions associated with this chapel and its current use. She had been able to say very little when she was interupted by a young man who interjected an incredible amount of "information" about the pre-Christian Celtic origins of this shrine. Finally, I got up and told him to shut up. That we were here to listen to what this woman knew about this chapel in her community. To do him justice, he did shut up (I can be pretty forceful when I feel that it is warranted). Later, he apologized, both to myself and to the woman. I did not see any point in attempting to sort out historical information from legend in the context, but the authoritative interruption made by that young man annoyed and embarrassed me.
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