Janus to Venus...?

[Chacharm]

Just after I returned home from my Camino in 2012 I saw a documentary on The Camino that said that long before St. James lived and died the Romans required people in newly acquired lands to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to become true citizens of Rome. As that was really difficult for the people of what is today Spain, they allowed for a pilgrimage from the shrine of Janus to the Shrine of Venus (or maybe it was the other way around). One Shrine was located near SJPP and the other near Santiago. The doc also made reference to the concha/scallop shell as the symbol of Venus and said that there were remains of one or the other shrine somewhere on the Camino. Because completion granted citizenship pilgrims needed proof that they had walked its entirety (sellos on a letter of reference from a Roman official at the beginning and the end) and food and shelter businesses appeared along the route.
It also went on at length about the ley line running between the two places.
Has anyone else read about or heard about this? I can't find anything online about it. Veddy interesting if true.

 

[mspath]

See for example this account from El Corrego Gallego.es
dated 20.09.2011 which mentions that in ancient Roman Hispania the path of Janus began at the templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), and ended at the Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).

" Según varios estudiosos, en la antigua Hispania el sendero romano de Jano nacía en el templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), para morir en el Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).

Cuando corría el siglo I, los peregrinos que ponían rumbo a Lugo, alcanzando las costas hispánicas desde Roma, se dirigían al templo del citado Venus Pyrinea.

Venus daba acogida igualmente a los navegantes que zarpaban desde Roma al Finis Terrae. De aquí partía la ruta Callis Ianus, más tarde Camino de Santiago de Compostela"

 

[Chacharm]

See for example this account from El Corrego Gallego.es
dated 20.09.2011 which mentions that in ancient Roman Hispania the path of Janus began at the templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), and ended at the Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).

" Según varios estudiosos, en la antigua Hispania el sendero romano de Jano nacía en el templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), para morir en el Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).

Cuando corría el siglo I, los peregrinos que ponían rumbo a Lugo, alcanzando las costas hispánicas desde Roma, se dirigían al templo del citado Venus Pyrinea.

Venus daba acogida igualmente a los navegantes que zarpaban desde Roma al Finis Terrae. De aquí partía la ruta Callis Ianus, más tarde Camino de Santiago de Compostela"

Thank you! Odd that it is so hard to get more info on it, isn't it?

 

[mspath]

Keep Googling and you will find more! For instance this from the blog El Tablero de Piedra
dated 01.06.12. Happy research.

 

[Chacharm]

Yes I was just reading that one - helped to have Callis Ianus to enter!

 

[cj330]

Just after I returned home from my Camino in 2012 I saw a documentary on The Camino that said that long before St. James lived and died the Romans required people in newly acquired lands to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to become true citizens of Rome. As that was really difficult for the people of what is today Spain, they allowed for a pilgrimage from the shrine of Janus to the Shrine of Venus (or maybe it was the other way around). One Shrine was located near SJPP and the other near Santiago. The doc also made reference to the concha/scallop shell as the symbol of Venus and said that there were remains of one or the other shrine somewhere on the Camino. Because completion granted citizenship pilgrims needed proof that they had walked its entirety (sellos on a letter of reference from a Roman official at the beginning and the end) and food and shelter businesses appeared along the route.
It also went on at length about the ley line running between the two places.
Has anyone else read about or heard about this? I can't find anything online about it. Veddy interesting if true.

Hi @Chacharm, I found this post of yours via Google as I was also searching for more research done on the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Would you mind sharing the name of this documentary? Sounds very interesting!

 

[mspath]

Hi @Chacharm, I found this post of yours via Google as I was also searching for more research done on the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Would you mind sharing the name of this documentary? Sounds very interesting!

cj330,
I share your and Chacharm's interest in the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Unfortunately Chacharm was last on this forum in August 2019.

 

[JabbaPapa]

AFAIK the pre-Christian pilgrimage, if it could be called that, was to Fisterra -- to conflate it, and the Roman roads network, with the Camino is IMO mistaken.

 

[cj330]

AFAIK the pre-Christian pilgrimage, if it could be called that, was to Fisterra -- to conflate it, and the Roman roads network, with the Camino is IMO mistaken.

cj330,
I share your and Chacharm's interest in the pre-Christian origins of the pilgrimage route. Unfortunately Chacharm was last on this forum in August 2019.

@mspath I'm very sorry to hear that....
I'm not sure if this is the docu Chacharm wanted to refer to, but it's one I found while searching that seems to address similar points, in case you are interested:
https://www.travelightfilm.com/the-camino

@JabbaPapa I very much disagree. There are numerous historical references to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert.

you can find some information here:
from the Xunta de Galicia:

ara solis - Xacopedia

Xacopedia

xacopedia.com

Vía Láctea, La - Xacopedia

Xacopedia

xacopedia.com

from Notre Dame University:

History of the Camino de Santiago | Notre Dame Magazine | University of Notre Dame

The route known as the Camino de Santiago is neither a road nor a highway. It's a walkway trod by travelers of all kinds for more than 2,000 years.

magazine.nd.edu

from the BBC:

The Camino de Santiago's ancient secret

Cape Finisterre’s mythical pull has drawn travellers since the time of antiquity. But with the rise of Christianity, the route to ‘the end of the world’ became all but forgotten.

www.bbc.com

Correo Gallego:

El Cabo Touriñán ofrece la puesta de sol más tardía de toda la Europa continental

Hablar de Costa da Morte es hablar del fin del mundo, de la muerte del sol. Es precisamente por Cabo Touriñán por donde se pierde el último rayo del a...

www.elcorreogallego.es

Iberian Adventures:

A Pagan History of the Camino - Iberian Adventures

The objective of most pilgrims following the Camino de Santiago is reach the city of Santiago de Compostela in Galicia, in the northwest corner of Spain. Some believe that the name of Compostela comes from Latin “campus stellae” meaning field of stars, others believe it comes from “compositum” –...

www.iberianadventures.com

Similarly, the trail of the Camino Frances follows a lot of ancient infrastructure developed by Romans for mining and to extract natural resources from the peninsula. You can see many different Roman sites along the Camino Frances.
Not to mention, both pre-Christian/Roman artifacts and burial sites have been found around Santiago, indicating it was a significant settlement long before Christianity
These are just as much a part of the history and culture of the route as the religious aspect. The fact that the pre-Christian trail went past Santiago to Finisterre doesn't make it any less important of a pilgrimage: many modern pilgrims go on to Finisterre and Muxia too.

Besides, the dictionary definition of a "pilgrimage" is "a journey that has religious or spiritual significance." It is not monopolized by the Catholic church, nor by Christianity as a whole, and is certainly not limited to one single path.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I very much disagree.

I think you missed my point ...

 

[cj330]

I think you missed my point ...

Feel free to explain it better then

 

[Kathar1na]

I very much disagree. There are numerous historical references to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert.
you can find some information here:
from the Xunta de Galicia:
https://xacopedia.com/ara_solis

I carefully read the text in the first link. There is talk of myth, legends, could, possibly, ... I did not detect one historical reference to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert, let alone numerous such historical references.

Is it worth carefully reading the text in the other links if one is interested in such historical references?

 

[cj330]

I carefully read the text in the first link. There is talk of myth, legends, could, possibly, ... I did not detect one historical reference to Celts travelling from the Pyrenees to Finisterre to worship the sun at the Costa da Morte centuries before St. James even came to Spain to convert, let alone numerous such historical references.

Is it worth carefully reading the text in the other links if one is interested in such historical references?

That's why I shared multiple And the first link, Ara Solis is about Celts worshipping the sun at Finisterre. Ara Solis is also discussed in the BBC article.

The Pyrenees to Ara Solis route is referenced in the Correo Gallego article:

"Según varios estudiosos, en la antigua Hispania el sendero romano de Jano nacía en el templo de Venus Pyrenea, actual Cabo de Creus (7º 00' 29'' E), para morir en el Ara Solis, en Touriñán (5º 36' 40'' W).

Cuando corría el siglo I, los peregrinos que ponían rumbo a Lugo, alcanzando las costas hispánicas desde Roma, se dirigían al templo del citado Venus Pyrinea.

Venus daba acogida igualmente a los navegantes que zarpaban desde Roma al Finis Terrae. De aquí partía la ruta Callis Ianus, más tarde Camino de Santiago de Compostela.

Este viejo itinerario unía el Cabo de Creus en Oriente y el occidental Ara Solis, en el actual Cabo Touriñán."

And here is an extra article, just in case: https://adventurecamino.com/2017/03/camino-de-santiagos-pre-christian-history/

"Prior to the advent of Christianity, Celtic influence expanded over Iberian Peninsula around sixth century BC and pilgrims walked a path that led from the Pyrenees in Southern France, past the Bay of Biscay and today’s Santiago de Compostela, to the rocky cliffs of Finisterre (Cabo Fisterra), overlooking the Atlantic Ocean.
..........
The Celts and Druids were not the only pre-Christian people who revered St. James Path or Via Finisterre. Roman pilgrims made pilgrimages along the same path in honor of the god Janus. The path of Janus began at the temple of Venus in the Pyrenees and ended at the temple of Ara Solis in Finisterre. According to myth, Romulus (the founder of Rome) was the one who established the cult of Janus. The Romans believed that Janus was the god of beginnings and endings, the gatekeeper of every festival, religious feast, and holy day.

In 200 BC, as Romans slowly conquered the area of the Iberian Peninsula, Brutus became the first Roman general to reach Finisterre and to marvel at the Phoenician Altar to the Sun Ara Solis, a temple that was sacred to Druid priests and Celtic pilgrims. To the Romans, the Sun Ara Solis was Promontorium Celticum, and its location at Finisterre (near the current lighthouse) was then considered the westernmost point in Europe."

And I would say it's always worth carefully reading everything

 

[Kathar1na]

Según varios estudiosos

This is not a historical reference.

Brutus became the first Roman general to reach Finisterre and to marvel at the Phoenician Altar to the Sun Ara Solis

Really? I did not even bother to google for any sources. I vaguely remember that I did it some time ago. I probably even read the source in Latin. Correct me if my memory fails me but I guess that this Brutus is Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus and all he is famous for in this context is the fact that he made a written remark about finis terrae, the end of the world, but he does not even mean the cape, he means the whole area that is indeed the end of Hispania when seen from Italy and from Rome. Nobody has ever reported that they saw a Phoenician altar there. While you quote from the website of some Camino tour guides called Adventure Camino. This is fantasy, it's entertainment, like any kind of fiction. Enjoy it for what it is! I'm sure it's fun.

 

[henrythedog]

Feel free to explain it better then

Or perhaps read what he typed again?

What JP said was that some form of ritual journey to Finisterre has been going on for rather a long time. Well before Christianity and most certainly before the fortuitously timed discovery of the purported remains of St James.

Geography is largely fixed and beyond debate and so, significance being placed on the westernmost part of, to some, the known world is quite understandable, if not predictable.,

 

[Kathar1na]

historical references

Below is one of the historical references you are looking for. A Roman historian with the name Florus describes military expeditions and other events that had taken place about one hundred years before his time. He tells us of a Roman military leader named Brutus who had advanced with his soldiers to the north western region of what is now Spain and saw a spectacular sunset somewhere near the coast. No mention of an altar anywhere, let alone of Druid priests and Celtic pilgrims. Not even mention of a cape named End of the World. Now tell me which of these two narratives is the more fascinating one? For me, Florus wins hands down over Adventure Camino.

Fiction, as narrated by Adventure Camino (tour company), ca 2020 AD:

Brutus became the first Roman general to reach Finisterre and to marvel at the Phoenician Altar to the Sun Ara Solis, a temple that was sacred to Druid priests and Celtic pilgrims.​

​

Fact, as narrated in Epitome of Roman History, Book 1, by Florus (Roman historian), translated into English, ca 100 BC:

Decimus Brutus, taking a somewhat wider range, overcame the Celts and Lusitanians, and all the tribes of Gallaecia, crossed the river of Oblivion, and object of dread to the soldiers, and having pursued a victorious route along the shore of the Ocean, did not turn back until he beheld, not without some dread and apprehension of being guilty of impiety, the sun descend into the sea, and his fire buried in the waters.​

​

 

[cj330]

Or perhaps read what he typed again?

What JP said was that some form of ritual journey to Finisterre has been going on for rather a long time. Well before Christianity and most certainly before the fortuitously timed discovery of the purported remains of St James.

Geography is largely fixed and beyond debate and so, significance being placed on the westernmost part of, to some, the known world is quite understandable, if not predictable.,

Thanks for clarifying, although I'm still not sure why "to conflate it, and the Roman roads network, with the Camino is [IMO] mistaken." ?

Many pilgrims go on to Finisterre nowadays after Santiago too..... so why should this not be "conflated" with the Camino? If people feel more spiritual connection with doing the Camino along one of the usual routes, but place their spiritual emphasis on ending in Finisterre because they are doing it more for a, as an example, a connection with nature, with ancient peoples, because they don't identify or like organized modern religions or they just don't like Catholicism..... then why can those two things not be "conflated"?

 

[Kathar1na]

then why can those two things not be "conflated"?

There are two things that need to be kept apart: What people want to believe about the past and what is known historical fact. If you don't know what that is, I picked up this definition the internet: A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"

You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical facts. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.

About sources: Indicate them precisely and in detail. Not even scholarly works are always reliable because they do not always check the primary source (that would be a monstrous work) but quote another book or article. Which had quoted another book or article ...

 

[cj330]

There are two things that need to be kept apart: What people want to believe about the past and what is known historical fact. If you don't know what that is, I picked up this definition the internet: A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"

You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.

About sources: Indicate them precisely and in detail. Not even scholarly works are always reliable because they do not always check the primary source (that would be a monstrous work) but quote another book or article. Which had quoted another book or article ...

Thanks for the passive-aggressive language lesson, but it's not needed

My previous question wasn't about the historical references.

It was about why, if someone feels more spiritual reward and progress from ending in Finisterre than in Santiago because their spiritual practice doesn't match up with the Catholic tradition, is that less valid of a "Camino"? After all, many people do the Camino to get in better touch with themselves spiritually.... I don't think it's required to dictate that has to happen only in Santiago.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?"

The last historical fact that you quoted was the musings of some guy writing 100 years after the event happened. How is that fact? Sounds more like hearsay.

 

[Kathar1na]

The last historical fact that you quoted was the musings of some guy writing 100 years after the event happened. How is that fact?

And I am glad that you picked up on it! That's why I made a point of mentioning that Florus wrote a good hundred years after the events that he describes. We don't even know whether Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus ever reached what is now known as Finisterre. He may or may not have seen a fantastic sunset over the sea. What I quoted is a historical reference. Which is what the poster asked for and one of the very few we have in this context. The other ones in this context (I would need to google again) are Pliny and Ptolemy, and they are even more vague about the location of an end of the world point and an altar.

What the current narrative of a sun altar and a pilgrimage to it is based on and expanded upon are works of Galician authors of the 19th century and the books and articles and blogs of the contemporary Camino boom.

 

[Kathar1na]

My previous question wasn't about the historical references.

It was about why, if someone feels more spiritual reward and progress from ending in Finisterre than in Santiago because their spiritual practice doesn't match up with the Catholic tradition, is that less valid of a "Camino"?

I'm glad that you cleared that up. You'd like to have a bit of real ancient historical backup for it, though? Why? The contemporary Camino de Santiago is a modern creation, people can do it and feel about it any way they want. So is this about perception, how other people's perception and your perception match? Or whether some people have a lower opinion of how other people see their Camino? Yep, happens. It would not bother me and I would not try to persuade them otherwise.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

And I am glad that you picked up on it! That's why I made a point of mentioning that Florus wrote a good hundred years after the events that he describes. We don't even know whether Decimus Iunius Brutus Callaicus ever reached what is now known as Finisterre. He may or may not have seen a fantastic sunset over the sea. What I quoted is a historical reference. Which is what the poster asked for and one of the very few we have in this context. The other ones in this context (I would need to google again) are Pliny and Ptolemy, and they are even more vague about the location of an end of the world point and an altar.

What the current narrative of a sun altar and a pilgrimage to it is based on and expanded upon are works of Galician authors of the 19th century and the books and articles and blogs of the contemporary Camino boom.

What you quoted was an academic reference.

It is impossible to separate history from the people who wrote it.

There are no facts, just someone expressing an opinion for there own purposes.

 

[Kathar1na]

What you quoted was an academic reference.
It is impossible to separate history from the people who wrote it.
There are no facts, just someone expressing an opinion for there own purposes.

Let me just end this part of the discussion by saying that one of my pastimes is learning about how myths are created and how they develop over time. Watching this in near-real time is irresistibly fascinating for me.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Let me just end this part of the discussion by saying that one of my pastimes is learning about how myths are created and how they develop over time. Watching this in near-real time is irresistibly fascinating for me.

I thought that it might interest you.

 

[Kathar1na]

And something else. I think that part of many misconceptions - and I am not sure that I can explain this properly - is the style that scholars or researchers or authors of 'serious' books adopt and that I, for example, use, too. They quote a historical source or a legend and then, for reason of simplicity, write as if it really happened. An example would be the story of the hanged young pilgrim and the roasted chicken that come alive. When you describe the story, you don't start every sentence with according to legend or supposedly. You do it at the beginning and later you write: And the grilled chicken flew away. And it is similar with the Ara Solis altar narratives. Except that next to nobody who reads a quote about the chicken takes it at face value while many who read a quote about the sun altar do.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Ah, very interesting. Tell me more.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Oh, btw, what is a serious book?

 

[Kathar1na]

Oh, btw, what is a serious book?

A 'serious' book - I did use quotes - is a book that I find interesting and worth reading and many others boring.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

A 'serious' book - I did use quotes - is a book that I find interesting and worth reading and many others boring.

Wow, quotes. Do you mean that you find other books boring or are you assuming what someone else might find interesting or not?

 

[Kathar1na]

Wow, quotes. Do you mean that you find other books boring or are you assuming what someone else might find interesting or not?

I enjoy a meaningful online debate but I'd like to share what I was thinking just now while I was cooking my lunch, and this opportunity is as good as any. What I had learnt and adopted as a general attitude while walking the long walk to Santiago: that I don't have to tell anybody why I am doing this and I don't need to share what I think and what I know about it; and, but that was a little harder, that I can let people say what they believe to be a fact and I won't say anything. For example, offline, ie 'in real life', I leave people in their belief that the castle that they photograph in Ponferrada was built by the Templars. After all, it says so in the guidebooks. Both they and I are happier like this. And that's what it is about: feeling happy or at least happier, isn't?

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Yes, I am interspersing replies with learning Spanish. It seems to work for me.

The authors that you mention who like to write things (that they haven't seen) as if they are describing seeing them, how do you differentiate those people from people who just like to make things up?

Also, when they do this and they don't have complete information, which seems inevitable, do you think that they make some things up. To fill in the gaps or make it 'interesting' so to speak.

 

[Kathar1na]

I saw a documentary on The Camino that said that long before St. James lived and died the Romans required people in newly acquired lands to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to become true citizens of Rome. As that was really difficult for the people of what is today Spain, they allowed for a pilgrimage from the shrine of Janus to the Shrine of Venus (or maybe it was the other way around). One Shrine was located near SJPP and the other near Santiago.

Whoever said or wrote the above: No, didn't happen. At least I have never heard of it. Happy to be corrected. Anyone? It is an astonishing misunderstanding or wilful misinterpretation of the word peregrinus in Roman times. It does not mean pilgrim. You don't need to know much about Roman history and law and you don't need to know Latin to inform yourself about the meaning of the word in this context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_(Roman)

It could perhaps be expressed in the language of our times as third-region citizen who benefits from residency rights without full citizenship rights and/or who benefits from a visa waiver program.

 

[JabbaPapa]

What JP said was that some form of ritual journey to Finisterre has been going on for rather a long time. Well before Christianity and most certainly before the fortuitously timed discovery of the purported remains of St James.

Me ? I said nothing of the sort.

Whichever pre-Christian journeys may have taken place to Fisterra, whether for pagan ritual purposes, or funerary, or simply touristic -- and the latter has never ceased -- they have very dubious connection with the Way of Saint James, which only came into being many centuries later, and leads to a different place.

The Camino has as little pagan origin as the Ways to Rome, Jerusalem, Lourdes, or Fátima.

That there was a ritualistic path to Fisterra is likely ; but it was not the Camino.

Although to be fair, if Saint James did in fact make this journey from Jerusalem, then clearly Fisterra is where he would have gone to. But the Camino leads elsewhere.

 

[JabbaPapa]

You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical facts. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.

Exactly.

 

[cj330]

I'm glad that you cleared that up. You'd like to have a bit of real ancient historical backup for it, though? Why? The contemporary Camino de Santiago is a modern creation, people can do it and feel about it any way they want. So is this about perception, how other people's perception and your perception match? Or whether some people have a lower opinion of how other people see their Camino? Yep, happens. It would not bother me and I would not try to persuade them otherwise.

It's not clear to me what your conception of "historical fact" is...... The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.

The current premise of the Camino is that the body of St. James was found by a shepherd several hundred years after he was supposedly buried in Galicia by a series of "a series of lights", supposedly holy, in the sky. Then the bones were declared to be that of St. James and interred in the cathedral.
Even though the bones have never been proven to be those of St. James and there is considerable scholarly doubt that St. James was ever buried in Spain or whose bones those actually are....

(Translated from Spanish)
"Twelve apostles and two named Santiago. One, called El Mayor, son of Zebedee. Another, by contrast El Menor, son of Alphaeus. Tradition has it that the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela keeps the supposed remains of both, although there is no scientific certainty about it. Despite this, one of the great pilgrimage destinations of Christianity was erected around the bones attributed to the former.
...
No scientist of the 20th or 21st centuries has been able to study the skeleton attributed to Santiago el Mayor, the so-called Son of Thunder, patron saint of Spain, after the Vatican confirmed the authenticity of the remains by telegram to the Archbishopric in 1884 and settled definitely any suspicion. "With the pontifical decree, old musings are overcome forever," Cardinal Domingo Bartolini, prefect of the Congregation of Rites, celebrated in the letter sent to Galicia.
....
Serrulla , however, was commissioned in 1991 by the Xunta's Ministry of Culture (General Directorate of Historical and Documentary Heritage) to inspect the fragments that are preserved from the supposed skull of the other apostle Santiago, the Minor. The Cathedral Chapter did not allow the coroner to take the remains to the laboratory to carry out additional tests, such as dating,...."
https://elpais.com/cultura/2021-10-...s-del-apostol-santiago-esten-confundidos.html

I can't prove beyond a doubt that there was a sun temple at Finisterre any more than anyone has been able prove that a shepherd magically found the bones of St. James and that the bones in the cathedral are really his. Yet, a discovery, thanks to magic lights, of bones that no one is sure whose they are is considered the historical factual basis for the Camino, upon which pilgrims for centuries have made the journey to Santiago....... and the presence of a sun temple supposedly used by any of a number of pagan peoples who are documented to have worshipped the sun throughout northern Spain (Lusitanians, Cantabrians, Basque provide overviews with many more sources, both academic and otherwise) is fantasy and shouldn't be considered a Camino? That's an interesting dichotomy.

 

[Kathar1na]

It's not clear to me what your conception of "historical fact" is...... The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.

It's interesting to explore but it does not matter what the premise or 'ideological' foundation of the Camino de Santiago is and what these pilgrims believed to be true. The narrative underpinning the Saint James story is of no importance in this context. We are discussing whether pilgrimage routes existed during certain periods of time and not how they came about. There is ample proof that the Christian Camino to Santiago existed since at least the 1100s. Numerous documentary sources of all kinds including travel reports from pilgrims who are even known by name, in addition to diplomats and traders who travelled on the same roads and their names and business dealings. Buildings. Art. Nothing of the sort exists for any 'predecessor' 'pilgrimage route'.

 

[Peregrina 2013]

Does it really matter? That is up to each and every one of us. We can research - to any depth we might feel inclined, the history of the Camino de Santiago and what was there before, but in the end it is the individual who chooses to believe what they want to take from it. We walk on the Camino with so many others; all of us have different reasons, beliefs and views for doing it, and yet we all find the kindness, generosity, and camaraderie because of the Camino.

 

[VNwalking]

That's an interesting dichotomy.

It's all made up, the pilgrimage to Santiago taking pre-existing routes as its natural infrastructure. Roads (Roman or otherwise) are not a pilgrimage, just a means to that end.

What people did before us, going back to the Neolithic and before, is anyone's guess.
It really doesn't matter, because whatever meaning the Camino has for each of us is something individual, and valuable in and of itself

 

[Kathar1na]

Does it really matter? That is up to each and every one of us.

Exactly my point. Why does this matter? Why construct a pre-Roman pseudo-history that is simply unconstructable.

Having said that, I once visited a well-preserved Roman city with some Punic (Phoenician) architecture and it is one of my most treasured travel memories. Even if it would be just five building blocks, or a mosaic the size of my hand or a single coin - if it is Phoenician and has been found in Galicia, I absolutely would love to hear about it, sun altar or no sun altar.

 

[henrythedog]

Me ? I said nothing of the sort.

Whichever pre-Christian journeys may have taken place to Fisterra, whether for pagan ritual purposes, or funerary, or simply touristic -- and the latter has never ceased -- they have very dubious connection with the Way of Saint James, which only came into being many centuries later, and leads to a different place.

The Camino has as little pagan origin as the Ways to Rome, Jerusalem, Lourdes, or Fátima.

That there was a ritualistic path to Fisterra is likely ; but it was not the Camino.

Although to be fair, if Saint James did in fact make this journey from Jerusalem, then clearly Fisterra is where he would have gone to. But the Camino leads elsewhere.

Apologies.

 

[cj330]

It's all made up, the pilgrimage to Santiago taking pre-existing routes as its natural infrastructure. Roads (Roman or otherwise) are not a pilgrimage, just a means to that end.

What people did before us, going back to the Neolithic and before, is anyone's guess.
It really doesn't matter, because whatever meaning the Camino has for each of us is something individual, and valuable in and of itself

I agree, that's why I don't understand why people seem to get upset when people talk about pre-Christian influences on the Camino!

 

[cj330]

Does it really matter? That is up to each and every one of us. We can research - to any depth we might feel inclined, the history of the Camino de Santiago and what was there before, but in the end it is the individual who chooses to believe what they want to take from it. We walk on the Camino with so many others; all of us have different reasons, beliefs and views for doing it, and yet we all find the kindness, generosity, and camaraderie because of the Camino.

I agree! and yet, several people earlier in the post got very upset from people pointing out pre-Christian influences, hence why I'm making the argument. If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.

 

[Peregrina 2013]

I agree! and yet, several people earlier in the post got very upset from people pointing out pre-Christian influences, hence why I'm making the argument. If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.

Couldn't agree more

 

[cj330]

You can believe whatever you want to believe and freely associate and speculate to your hearts content and give free rein to creativity and fantasy. What you shouldn't do: Pick any suitable historical facts and create artificial unfounded merely speculative links between them and sell them that as historical facts. That's really really bad thinking and just not sound.

You may want to have a talk with the Catholic Church then.

 

[C clearly]

If everyone is free to assign the meaning they want to it, than those wanting to assign or celebrate pre-Christian influences on their Camino should be allowed to.

Assigning "meaning" is what we individually should be allowed to do. Finding and describing historical evidence is a separate matter - various standards of research generally are applied.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

various standards of research generally are applied.

Interesting. While reading my morning news I read an article in the Guardian about scratch lines in hominid teeth. It seems that pre-human hominid teeth have for some time been found with longitudinal scratches in them and researchers have decided that these scratches are evidence of the use of tools and were said to be unique.

Recent work with Japanese Marque monkeys has discovered identical scratches but no evidence of tool use. In this case the researchers ascribe the scratches to sand in the Marques marine environment diet.

It seems that yesterdays evidence of tool use, and by assumption, intelligence, is today's sand.

All history is someone's interpretation.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The entire structure of the camino is based on legend and fantasy.

The entire structure of the camino is based on a complex network of routes leading to a Sanctuary in Galicia, that has come into being for reasons discovered in History. Some too might disagree with your characterisation of the nature of this pilgrim's Way.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I agree, that's why I don't understand why people seem to get upset when people talk about pre-Christian influences on the Camino!

To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset", it is to point out that such things do not characterise the Camino either historically or today.

 

[C clearly]

To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset"

Nice distinction.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

On the 12th of May, 2019 Doughnut stepped out of his vessel at Madrid airport and was heard to exclaim "I hereby declare that I have discovered Spain and I claim it for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand in the name of Jacinda Adern, Prime Minister".

Later during an interview to report on this momentous occasion Doughnut was reported as saying "It is our intention to send missionaries in the form of ex All Black rugby players to bring our civilisation to the welcoming Spanish people".

"We think that the Spanish people will be so grateful to us that in future they will declare a national holiday on the anniversary of this day and they will call it Doughnut Day".

 

[VNwalking]

On the 12th of May, 2019 Doughnut stepped out of his vessel at Madrid airport and was heard to exclaim "I hereby declare that I have discovered Spain and I claim it for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand in the name of Jacinda Adern, Prime Minister".

Later during an interview to report on this momentous occasion Doughnut was reported as saying "It is our intention to send missionaries in the form of ex All Black rugby players to bring our civilisation to the welcoming Spanish people".

"We think that the Spanish people will be so grateful to us that in future they will declare a national holiday on the anniversary of this day and they will call it Doughnut Day

OMG.
I almost choked on my PG Tips.
Now that's a myth worth spreading, Sir Doughnut!

To point out the great unlikeliness of such allegations of pre-Christian "origins" is not to be "upset", it is to point out that such things do not characterise the Camino either historically or today.

Exactly.
There seems a cultural creep across the spectrum - away from understanding of nuance and being able to withstand healthy disagreement, towards black and white thinking and intolerance of any dissenting viewpoints. It may be a generational difference - some of us predate the self-esteem fad and learned resilience around criticism and disagreement.

 

[Kathar1na]

There seems a cultural creep across the spectrum - away from understanding of nuance and being able to withstand healthy disagreement, towards black and white thinking and intolerance of any dissenting viewpoints

There is also a lack of emotional distance and impartiality in some of these exchanges. When I detect it and it's a bit too much for my taste I quietly bail out of the exchange.

Some of the narratives in connection with the Camino de Santiago are fascinating. Not because of the narrative itself but because of the time when it was created and evolved and to which period of time it referrs to, what motivated, or even still motivates, people to embellish and expand these narratives and what their mindset must have been like. To use a less controversial and emotion-loaded example, take the Roland narrative or the narrative of Charlemagne's dream. You'd think the narrative dates from the time when these events were said to have happened. Not so. They date from many centuries later and were backdated.

The timelines confused me considerably at first because most contemporary written material does not allow you see this - and the writers are presumably not even aware of it themselves. They present all the narratives in the chronological order of the (narrated) events.

PS: Reading through the above text to check on grammar errors or typos, I'm thinking: Probably a bit of a confusing explanation.

Did I mention already that I recently bought yet another book by Denise Péricard-Méa?

 

[mspath]

There is also a lack of emotional distance and impartiality in some of these exchanges. When I detect it and it's a bit too much for my taste I quietly bail out of the exchange.

Some of the narratives in connection with the Camino de Santiago are fascinating. Not because of the narrative itself but because of the time when it was created and evolved and to which period of time it referrs to, what motivated, or even still motivates, people to embellish and expand these narratives and what their mindset must have been like. To use a less controversial and emotion-loaded example, take the Roland narrative or the narrative of Charlemagne's dream. You'd think the narrative dates from the time when these events were said to have happened. Not so. They date from many centuries later and were backdated.

The timelines confused me considerably at first because most contemporary written material does not allow you see this - and the writers are presumably not even aware of it themselves. They present all the narratives in the chronological order of the (narrated) events.

PS: Reading through the above text to check on grammar errors or typos, I'm thinking: Probably a bit of a confusing explanation.

Did I mention already that I recently bought yet another book by Denise Péricard-Méa?

Kathar1na,
Your explanation is not all confusing; your intense clarity is always most admirable. ...In times like these we all need clarity. Ultreia.

 

[Albertagirl]

In reading through this interesting thread I am reminded of a minor incident which occurred when I was walking my first camino. I was staying overnight at the albergue Tosantos and had been informed of an arranged visit to a chapel built into the hillside above Tosantos and known as (here I am relying on my Brierley from 2015) "Our Lady of the Crag Ermita de la Virgen de la Pena." I signed up for this visit, which was led by a local woman, expecting to hear what she knew of traditions associated with this chapel and its current use. She had been able to say very little when she was interupted by a young man who interjected an incredible amount of "information" about the pre-Christian Celtic origins of this shrine. Finally, I got up and told him to shut up. That we were here to listen to what this woman knew about this chapel in her community. To do him justice, he did shut up (I can be pretty forceful when I feel that it is warranted). Later, he apologized, both to myself and to the woman. I did not see any point in attempting to sort out historical information from legend in the context, but the authoritative interruption made by that young man annoyed and embarrassed me.

 

[VNwalking]

Did I mention already that I recently bought yet another book by Denise Péricard-Méa?

No. Do tell!

 

[DoughnutANZ]

In reading through this interesting thread I am reminded of a minor incident which occurred when I was walking my first camino. I was staying overnight at the albergue Tosantos and had been informed of an arranged visit to a chapel built into the hillside above Tosantos and known as (here I am relying on my Brierley from 2015) "Our Lady of the Crag Ermita de la Virgen de la Pena." I signed up for this visit, which was led by a local woman, expecting to hear what she knew of traditions associated with this chapel and its current use. She had been able to say very little when she was interupted by a young man who interjected an incredible amount of "information" about the pre-Christian Celtic origins of this shrine. Finally, I got up and told him to shut up. That we were here to listen to what this woman knew about this chapel in her community. To do him justice, he did shut up (I can be pretty forceful when I feel that it is warranted). Later, he apologized, both to myself and to the woman. I did not see any point in attempting to sort out historical information from legend in the context, but the authoritative interruption made by that young man annoyed and embarrassed me.

Yes you are correct, this gets to be annoying. I had a similar experience once as part of a focus group. One person was stuck on a particular thing and everytime we tried to move on they kept bringing the conversation back to themselves. In the end we just had to address it with the person so we could move on.

What did your local expert have to say about our lady of the crag?

 

[Albertagirl]

Tosantos is a small village with a very long pilgrim tradition, including an ancient pilgrim hostel, formerly attached to the Church, which has since disappeared. I do not at all well remember what was said about the Ermita. There is an ancient stone image of the child Jesus. I think that there were archeologists there at one time, but nothing really notable was found. The entrance to the Ermita is quite elaborate and I think it is from a later date than the Ermita inside. I believe that the woman speaking to us said the Ermita was ignored for a long time but eventually the deteriorating interior was opened up and repaired. Some special services may be held there, but considering the small population of Tosantos I doubt if many locals are getting baptized there these days. It is certainly worth seeing if you stay at Tosantos. Even if you don't stay overnight, it is a short walk up the hill to see the entrance. The Ermita is generally kept locked.