Penny Kingma
Never Stop Trying !
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2016
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How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.
And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths?.
No clue. I'm suggesting an initial step and trying to be positive. If there's a strong, concerted effort (a petition) then someone might listen. I'm not going to drag my old boney xss through toxic doubt and negativity.And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?
My next walk is Italy - quieter, less traffic than Spanish Caminos, but a few bicycles, I gather.
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure whether I'll make it this year but it's next on my list. I've never been to Italy so walking through Tuscany and into Rome seems irresistible.If you are considering the Via Francigena in Italy then my experience in 2015 is that there were very few cyclists in the off-road sections. Most of the Italian cyclists were on the minor roads on racing machines with razor-thin wheels which wouldn't have survived for more than a km or two off-road. Plenty of room to pass each other safely whenever we met.
In case you had not noticed the vast majority of the Camino is on public roads. And even on the walking trails these are still public lands. So until the government's, both national & regional, tell me I can no longer do this I will continue to do so!How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.
If I had a bike I wouldn't ride it on walking paths. You ride your bike wherever you like.EXCUSE Me, but who the b***dy hell are you to tell me I can ride my bike on the PUBLIC ROADS of rural Spain. Yes that's right in case you had not noticed the vast majority of the Camino is on public roads. And even on the walking trails these are still public lands. So until the government's, both national & regional, tell me I can no longer do this I will continue to do so!
99% of them were considerate and called out well in advance or rang their bells (those who had them)
As things stand at the moment I acknowledge that you and your fellow cyclists have the right to pedal the off-road sections of the Camino. I would be far happier if you did not do so.
Toleration means accepting that others may think, speak, and act differently to ourselves. I do not think that it means that we cannot disagree within courtesy and reason. I have explicitly stated that I recognise the right of cyclists to use the Camino Frances paths. Is it necessary to pretend to be happy with the status quo?Let's get over this bickering and share with an open heart as wayfarer says.
Unfortunately it's that 'don't care' percentage that exasperate the rest of us and are impervious to education, laws or rules. While not condoning your solutionProblem is, those who don't care about any other than themselves will ignore the sign , and also any laws or rules put in place. We all actually know the police cannot be everywhere at all times. I find that a hiking pole stuck out at the "wrong" angle makes bad cyclists pull up, swerve, swear etc much quicker than anything else. ( Arm out from the body at waist height with sick pointing upwards and forwards so they hit the flat of the stick rather than being impaled....) Those that swear always cause me to trip and stumble my big boots onto their spokes.
Much like, as a cyclist on roads a decent carbon fibre rod at right angles to the bike with a small flag or flashing light causes cars to give you some reasonable space, wagons on the other hand........
You could also attach a skull and crossbones flag to the pole at the middle.I find that a hiking pole stuck out at the "wrong" angle makes bad cyclists pull up, swerve, swear etc much quicker than anything else. ( Arm out from the body at waist height with sick pointing upwards and forwards so they hit the flat of the stick rather than being impaled....)
The problem is that the Camino is not a "walking path" but a path. As annoying and dangerous as some cyclists maybe with their high speed, no warning and passing so close to people, they are on the path - the only path, the Camino.If I had a bike I wouldn't ride it on walking paths. You ride your bike wherever you like.
As Anemone said, there is not a walking path, but a path. Many of the cyclists you will meet aren't even pilgrims, but cyclists out for a ride on paths through their own area and who encounter pilgrims sharing the same path on their way to Santiago.The bragging rights to say they cycled the rustic walking trail instead of the areas of designated cyclist trail.
You make an excellent point. Not only is there 1 Camino path, but it is the Camino that passes through city, villages paths using paths established well before anyone started painting arrows for pilgrims.As Anemone said, there is not a walking path, but a path. Many of the cyclists you will meet aren't even pilgrims, but cyclists out for a ride on paths through their own area and who encounter pilgrims sharing the same path on their way to Santiago.
And who is going to police this? The Guardia Civil?
Not going to happen. Spain is, after France & Italy, one of the most "cycle mad" countries. So if the regional governments tried to ban cyclist from what are, in the vast majority public roads you would (imho) see much uproar. How many farm vehicles (small trucks/suv, tractors) do you see on these roads??The various entities in charge in Spain simply need to make a decision that the traditional walking path needs to be restricted to foot traffic only and signs posted along the Way stating such. That would eliminate probably 90% of the cyclists from using the path. There will always be the small percentage that blows it off, but 10% is better than 100%. No real need for the coppers to bust out the citation books for the few that ignore the law/rule. Not worth it.
The bicyclists would have to adjust and set up their own route to Santiago.
I don't think it would ever be done because so many people bicycle the Camino now and I think there would be hesitation in discouraging anyone from doing the Camino simply from and economic impact standpoint.
They do, do that. That section through the woods just before Roncesvalles is proof of the damage. As it ruts out more and more, the cyclists just keep expanding the mud holes as they detour around to the left or the right. Some parts are pretty bad, especially after a rain.The bikes are not only dangerous to walkers but they tear the heck out of the trail.
Expanding on I said about whether to dodge to the right, left or stay put - you have no idea of whether the oncoming cyclists or from a right-hand driving country or a left-hand driving one and which way they instinctively want to go.I instinctively leaped to the right,
Tom, I first thought why bother with the hassle of shipping and just rent (it is fairly cheap) but then I remember you describing yourself as a big guy. It might be hard to find a rental your size. Just a thought here, fly to Amsterdam and buy a second-hand bike; the Dutch are pretty tall.I am presently struggling with the costs of bringing a bike as luggage to and from the US, versus renting an appropriate hybrid style bike there. All suggestions and recommendations heartily welcomed. Feel free to PM me.
I speak from direct experience in this matter. In 2013 I was forced to leap off the trail by a pair of speeding day-tripper mountain bikers hurtling down Alto de Perdon, west of Pamplona. While there is NOW a cable to protect people from falling off the trail, in 2013 there was none.
I instinctively leaped to the right, realizing at the last moment that there was nothing but air there. Here, the path drops off nearly vertically. I would have likely died, but for the last nano-second action by the second biker. He grabbed my rucksack strap just before I sailed over the edge. My next memory was being on my knees at the edge of the precipice, vomiting.
Now, after four Caminos, and turning 64 this year, my knees, ankles and hips are strongly "suggesting" to me that I consider biking my next Camino instead of walking. I have started sorting this all out.
What I can tell you is that I have no intention of using the footpaths if on a bicycle. My initial plans are to use roads the entire way. My relating research is about the best way to do this.
I am presently struggling with the costs of bringing a bike as luggage to and from the US, versus renting an appropriate hybrid style bike there. All suggestions and recommendations heartily welcomed. Feel free to PM me.
I have no fear of traffic on the N-120 or equivalent roads.
When I eventually do this, I may be dressed like a neon-colored fruit bowl, and flashing like a bevy of police replying to a break-in at their favorite donut shop, but incoming motorists WILL see me. They may still hit me from behind, but that is what my St. Christopher medal is for.
I hope this helps.
I am heartbroken. My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold. My feet do not permit me to hike long distances any longer, but I'm able to cycle long distances without difficulty. I had planned to cycle the Camino Frances (a shorter version) and looked forward to meeting warm, happy, like-minded cyclists and pilgrims along the way. I wondered if there is a divide between the cyclists and walkers, and I see there is. Needles to say, I am thoughtful about my impact on any trail and don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.
Sorry don't want your hugs. I just want you to moderate your views. Not all cyclists are like the one you "ran into". I found motor cyclists on the "old roman road" (after Fromister?) had a lot less respect for the walkers.Saint Mike II.
As previously stated I witnessed a very close call. It's just a matter of time that someone is seriously hurt or killed. When crossing or walking on a public roadway you expect traffic of all kinds. While walking on rough, narrow, steep trails you don't anticipate a cyclist flying by. Just because someone doesn't put up a sign, make a law or physically remove them doesn't make it correct. ... The hope is that when a wrong they come across in life I haven't educated them about common sense will take over. Until then I'd suggest walking pilgrims pickup a little rear view mirror you clip to your sun glasses. I use one when I bike at home...never bike without for safety while sharing the road. Had I known of this hazard I would've packed it.
HugsMike
I am heartbroken. My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold. My feet do not permit me to hike long distances any longer, but I'm able to cycle long distances without difficulty. I had planned to cycle the Camino Frances (a shorter version) and looked forward to meeting warm, happy, like-minded cyclists and pilgrims along the way. I wondered if there is a divide between the cyclists and walkers, and I see there is. Needles to say, I am thoughtful about my impact on any trail and don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.
Mike I don't dislike cyclists as stated I'm one myself. I just wanted to make new pilgrims heading out on their first Caminos aware. I wasn't this past summer and was startled by it. I shared stories and meals with many cyclists during my Camino as friends all making our way to Santiago.Sorry don't want your hugs. I just want you to moderate your views. Not all cyclists are like the one you "ran into". I found motor cyclists on the "old roman road" (after Fromister?) had a lot less respect for the walkers.
The one aspect I will agree on, cyclists in organised groups need educating about their interaction with walking pilgrims, break their groups into threes and fours, rather than 15 all at once.
Again I call on the moderators - lock this one!
The issue seems pretty simple to me. Where I live, bicycles don't ride on the sidewalk.
I sure hope that your confidence in your own courtesy and good sense is not that delicate. Negative energy won't follow you if you are a warm, happy cyclist who is considerate of others.My plans to bike the Camino April/May 2017 are on hold... I... don't think I can handle the negative energy that may follow me.
Where is this not the case?Sad that money now is a issue there also.
The problem is that "when a bike is approaching" it is approaching from the back so the walker (even without ear buds, etc.) will be startled by a sudden up-close warning. My jumping reaction is hard to control in those circumstances. I try not to jump anywhere, and need to trust the cyclist to avoid me, just as they would avoid a tree or a cow in the middle of the path. The cyclist has the full view and is presumably in control of the vehicle.The other is a standard for walkers to move either left or right when a bike is approaching. We all come from different countries where either may apply. Maybe a few signs, say once every 50 km, to advertise the Spanish standard would help.?
I haven't had a dangerous encounter in March, October or November. I've been startled but the cyclists have been courteous.I wonder if the problem comes mostly with summer
I don't feel at all guilty for zigzagging all day! That's why walkers need the warning, from a reasonable distance, so they can stop the erratic movements in consideration of passing cyclists.Walkers, let's do our own mea culpas: walking side by side with walking buddy chatting away for one. Or walking with ear buds. But what I am particularly guilty of is switching back and forth from one side of the track to the other while juggling around stones and holes in the gound. I find myself zigzagging all day on those horrible tracks.
How hard is it to require cyclists to use the roads instead of walking paths? Walkers can be elderly, or very young, or infirm, etc. OR, maybe they just want to smell the roses! All cyclists are pretty fit, almost by definition, and therefore at an advantage. Also, cyclists are always faster than walkers.
Maybe if we all agree to lodge personal statements of complaint regarding personal experience/incidents. Include date and location, make it sound serious, even if one doesn't have the culprit's name.
Can anyone suggest where to lodge complaints? A list of Camino-related local government offices, perhaps. A forum member might supply a Spanish/English text file so only a signature and contact info need be added.
If enough people are interested, I could organise an online petition as a first step. Such a petition needn't be affiliated with this forum. Or is that still a sufficiently political activity to be prohibited here?
Let me know and I'll do what I can.
Some cyclists use portions of the Camino as an athletic challenge, and they are the ones who pose a danger. It is just a guess, but only 10% of the cyclists who have nearly hit me have had panniers, indicating that they are sporting cyclists, not pilgrims. I get irritated when cyclists expect me to yield and there is a suitable road about 30 meters away! A lot of the route is road and sendai, both of which are compatible with pedestrians and bicycles, with pedestrians having the right-of-way because bicycles are vehicles. Quite a number of signs prohibit motorized vehicles on the Camino footpaths, and I have never seen a violation. I hate myself for it, but I have enjoyed seeing cyclists take a tumble.I hope they enjoy it too; if danger is your business, then embrace the danger...
Some cyclists use portions of the Camino as an athletic challenge, and they are the ones who pose a danger. It is just a guess, but only 10% of the cyclists who have nearly hit me have had panniers, indicating that they are sporting cyclists, not pilgrims. I get irritated when cyclists expect me to yield and there is a suitable road about 30 meters away! A lot of the route is road and sendai, both of which are compatible with pedestrians and bicycles, with pedestrians having the right-of-way because bicycles are vehicles. Quite a number of signs prohibit motorized vehicles on the Camino footpaths, and I have never seen a violation. I hate myself for it, but I have enjoyed seeing cyclists take a tumble.I hope they enjoy it too; if danger is your business, then embrace the danger...
I became very discouraged after this thread ran its course. Pretty hard for me not to be cynical. I first read your post as sarcastic, sorry. If you read all the way through the thread you'll see how complex the issue is. I try to suggest practical action because although I've only been posting for a year, I've seen many threads that get very complicated and very heated by some quite polarised opinion, then the thread just meanders into terminal entropy and there's no resolution. That's democracy for you. Occasionally the moderators jump in. There are rules - scroll down to the very bottom right of this page for a link. My post #3 only got 3 "likes". This makes it obvious that a petition or a committee would be dead in the water at the start line.Better still why not form a committee?
Life in the Facebook era!! My self-worth is measured by "likes."My post #3 only got 3 "likes".
Some posts have been deleted and edited. Please read the rules before posting especially rule #1.
Got it.Sarcastic? Heaven forbid!!
There are poor, inconsiderate cyclists ( freely admit that) who are obviously selfish to the needs and safety of others; don't want to come across all Nigel Farage here, but most of the "speedsters" who don't give a t@ss are the locals doing recreational rides. There are also walkers too (a minuscule number certainly) who don't take onboard that the Camino is for ALL of us and despite polite warnings regarding the imminent presence of a cyclist, refuse to acknowledge and drift from one side of the trail to the other or swing their walking pole with abandon, oblivious to the possible consequences. Just because a pilgrim rides a bike, it doesn't make them any less of a pilgrim and so long as they are considerate to others on their pilgrimage they should not be unjustly judged or vilified.
As you don't own or promote Osborne (just guessing here) your Avatar is ok...Just read the rules. I see I've got away with violating rule 10!!
I have Parkinson's and hearing loss, so I do both regardless of whether there are cyclists.refuse to acknowledge and drift from one side of the trail to the other
And they are not less of a pilgrim if they stick to the paved road.Just because a pilgrim rides a bike, it doesn't make them any less of a pilgrim
Thanks Bradypus,The comparison of numbers of cyclists/walkers over the years is slightly complicated by a change in the nature of cycling over that time. On my first Camino Frances in 1990 I met quite a large number of cyclists but they almost all rode road touring or racing bikes - following the marked Camino along the sections of public roads, forestry roads, farm tracks and the like but taking alternatives when the yellow arrows led walkers on to sections like the rocky descent to Molinaseca. Off-road mountain bikes were a great rarity: in fact I cannot recall being passed by one at all between St Jean and Santiago. Walking again in 2002 there were more mountain bikers but the majority of cyclists were still using touring bikes. As the trend in recreational cycling has moved towards off-road bikes I think there has been a corresponding increase in the potential conflict of interests.
It would be nice to have such a simple absolute rule to follow. But on winding roads walkers may have to move to the "wrong" side of the road from time to time in order to see and be seen. No good trying to have a posthumous argument about blame with a driver who has just come around a tight bend and flattened you.So a simple thing to remember is left shoulder to the kerb at all times when walking in France & Spain. Cyclists should then cycle with Right shoulder to the kerb at all times.
A couple of years ago I was a witness in a fatal accident where a walker was killed walking along a busy road after a pub visit, in rain and mist, in the dark, while wearing dark clothing and walking with his back to the traffic. I am all too aware of the risks. My comment above was intended to suggest that walking on the left or the right "at all times" is an unwise oversimplification.And, remember that the driver who flattened you may have come from behind you just as easily.
After dozens of walks in Spain and France, I have not been able to discern any consistency in pedestrian conventions except for walking on the left on paved roads. Sidewalks, stores, and paths seem to be a random walk. I have been told several times by passing motorists in France to move to the left side! They are very rules oriented, and did not care about my ankles needing a different slope than the left side was offering.left shoulder to the kerb at all times when walking in France & Spain
While this is looking at walking habits as well as cycling - a plea to take care when the track meets the road, or crosses it. Last year we drove a section of Camino where the route continually crossed the road. For the driver there were signs to indicate that there could be pilgrims which was good. However the number who appeared from behind bushes etc and leapt into the road without looking was of real concern. Many did not look at all to see if there was any traffic coming, and some looked the 'wrong way' first.
And they are not less of a pilgrim if they stick to the paved road.
You are right, outside Logrono.Just read the rules.
I see I've got away with violating rule 10!! Not a commercial avatar, however, so much as a reflection of happy memories spent looking out for the Osborne bulls during many family tours of Spain in our split-screen VW camper. All before they had to remove the brand name of course.
I think we spotted just one on the Camino. Around Logroño?
It is in the same way that bike riders talk about car drivers. But it is custom and law in some areas and it is a requirement for a car to give way to a bike rider and they in turn give way to a walker. Ringing your bell to get you out of the way, is not giving way but at least it gives you a heads up as even if they are in the wrong, you will be the one hurt.I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.
I'm sorry to say I found cyclists to be a great hazard while walking from St Jean to Santiago this summer. The speeds they zoomed by alarming. I assisted one as an ambulance was called and had to make the difficult journey to help. He flew down a hill around a blind corner almost hitting a pilgrim walking. She flew for the ditch to avoid being hit by the cyclist. I too took the ditch a few times. No ear buds in...by the time you hear them they are on you. Very dangerous combination I didn't expect.
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