EmoJohnson
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Portuguese coastal way (2017)
Camino Frances (May/June 2018)
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
Thank you so much. Here is his picture. According to "Camigas" on Facebook, he is a repeat offender.Yuck.
This is not OK, and never was.
Fortunately, it sounds like the police may be taking it seriously - AND that you have a lawyer. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean they should ever get away with it. The fact that this has happened already and that it is still happening is a symptom of something that needs to change, and hopefully will.
In the meantime, please take particularly good care of yourselves. And please spread the word to fellow peregrinas to always report this to to police (and if possible and safe to do so to photograph the perpetrator). If these kinds of incidents are not reported, no-one can do anything about them.
I think we absolutely should get "all feminist"about this issue. Not only do we live with knowing that this kind of thing may happen, we pretty much expect that it will. The fact that so many believe that this is just how it is and brush it off speaks volumes about our societal attitudes.
Thank you so much for articulating this. My thoughts exactly.I think we absolutely should get "all feminist"about this issue. Not only do we live with knowing that this kind of thing may happen, we pretty much expect that it will. The fact that so many believe that this is just how it is and brush it off speaks volumes about our societal attitudes.
Thank you so much. Here is his picture. According to "Camigas" on Facebook, he is a repeat offender.
I'm with a woman I met on the Camino and we are in Estella in the process of filing a report with very receptive police (and a free lawyer " servicio asistencia a la mujer") who are taking our case seriously. Our breasts were groped by an older man on the road, directly following the pilgrim wine fountain at Irache. He approached under the guise of friendliness; it all happened so quickly. I felt slimed. I want other peregrinas to know about this and emphasize the policemen's attention to this. They report a similar incident occurred a few weeks ago.
ok, I am just curious and I suspect I know the answer but I have never actually seen anything, so maybe I have no clue?
Is a woman more likely to be harassed by a Spaniard local or by a fellow perigrino?
Totally think any of this behavior is terrible and I hope you don't all hate me for asking this sincere question.
I would love to believe that perigrinos are all saints (and not just 99.99% of us) but I am curious what the women think.
Damien
Please may I say, that it is not normal for ‘boys to be boys’ this behaviour is is not in every guys make up.
According to police he is a repeat offender and regardless of the benign abuelo appearance he was very much aware of his actions.It's a bad world, folks, and things may happen. The forum has an excellent section on Personal Safety and also on Camino Crime Watch. Read and pay attention.
Pilgrims and especially Peregrinas are vulnerable. We are far away from home, in a trusting mood and often in a happy bubble. But not everybody is the same or thinks the same. For predators of all feathers, peregrinas are an easy prey for many reasons and chances of being caught used to be low - but times are changing.
EmoJohnson posted - and wisely deleted- the picture of what looked like a friendly grandfather ~ and possibly he is indeed a friendly grandfather, and starting to have dementia. There is no way of knowing if you just happen to pass by. The Caminos run through the lives of the people who happen to live there, and they all react to it in their own way. Not knowing whom you will meet, is part of the pilgrimage.
Hope the Guardia Civil will solve this soon.
I saw it prior to being removed and appreciated the comparison and do appreciate your entire post.I totally agree @Johnlewis47 that this is not acceptable but I fear it is a lot more prevelant than men like us understand. On my first camino one of my walking companions was accosted near the old moutainside map of the world. I couldn't believe she didn't want to report it to police but she felt it wasn't that big of a deal and I didn't want to exacerbate any trauma she may have felt by insisting. On returning to the UK I spoke to a lot of my female friends about it and they almost all had a similar story.
I would like to think that it is just a very small proportion of men who behave like this, yet do so prolifically, but as a man it's just something I don't have any clear sight of. In my circle of friends anything like this would be totally unacceptable.
Stay safe,
Rob.
Moderator note: This post was edited to remove Political comment.
Edit: Apologies to mods, didn't occur to me that I may have been being controversial.
Thank you very much! I didn't like sacrificing two days of my Camino for the police station and testifying in court but then I realized "this is my Camino".Please may I say, that it is not normal for ‘boys to be boys’ this behaviour is is not in every guys make up.
I for one would challenge any man I came across behaving like this or in any other defamatory way towards any other human being. It was once my job to defend humankind and today it is my job to try to save them, or ease their suffering pain and anxiety (visions of the ambulance service I work for)
I am sorry a fellow member of my gender and of humankind felt the right to treat you in such a way, and well done for being brave enough to report it.
Buen Camino
Thank you for this, Jenny.Thanks so much for your warning EmoJohnson - forewarned is forearmed.
I've posted your Forum post on our Pilgrims in Sydney facebook page ... there are a number of us who have just started their camino and others who are about to head off, and this information is very helpful. I suggest anyone who is a member of a pilgrim association, no matter where it is in the world, also shares your post, so their members can be alerted.
Buen Camino to you and to your friend - take joy in every step on those ancient and magical paths and please know that you have helped countless female pilgrims by sharing your experience.
Cheers from Oz -
Jenny
Thank you. The police were very thorough and kind.When I read your post I thought " oh no not again".
Again good to hear police and law enforcement are taking this so serious.
To all pilgrims...male or female: always contact the police when you are violated or touched in an unappropiate way. They will take it serious.
Take good care and hope you can somewhat relax.
@EmoJohnson : all the best to your friend and to you.
Thank you for your support and kindness. I think "boys will be boys" should be an eradicated expressionYuck.
This is not OK, and never was.
Fortunately, it sounds like the police may be taking it seriously - AND that you have a lawyer. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean they should ever get away with it. The fact that this has happened already and that it is still happening is a symptom of something that needs to change, and hopefully will.
In the meantime, please take particularly good care of yourselves. And please spread the word to fellow peregrinas to always report this to to police (and if possible and safe to do so to photograph the perpetrator). If these kinds of incidents are not reported, no-one can do anything about them.
I testified in court today. My Camino friend, with two rapes in her history, had a very emotionally draining time today. The defense implied the perp's partial deafness and age excuse the behavior. The defense attorney tried to intimidate me with a theatrically booming voice. Regardless, this is repeat behavior.@EmoJohnson , please let us know how it goes for you tomorrow.
Thinking of you.
Changing that is a long term project. In the short term, making the law work is about as good as it gets! Well done.while the patriarcado is alive and well, we were so beautifully received by the police, attorney, and translator
I testified in court today. My Camino friend, with two rapes in her history, had a very emotionally draining time today. The defense implied the perp's partial deafness and age excuse the behavior. The defense attorney tried to intimidate me with a theatrically booming voice. Regardless, this is repeat behavior.
AND
while the patriarcado is alive and well, we were so beautifully received by the police, attorney, and translator that I am deeply moved.
Changing that is a long term project. In the short term, making the law work is about as good as it gets! Well done.
Last year on the Camino my friend was chatting with some younger women who had encountered something similar the night before in an albergue. Apparently an older male pilgrim, had 'come on to' to one of them strongly, and was duly rebuffed by both of them. They asked to be moved to a different room, but he continued to stay at the albergue. They left early to avoid him, and did a longer day to put distance between them.
He apparently considered the Camino as a 'hunting ground', allowing him to come into contact with younger woman in dormitories in a legitimate sort of way.
We were quite horrified by this, not only for the inappropriate behavior, but also as he was a fellow pilgrim.
Thank you very much! I didn't like sacrificing two days of my Camino for the police station and testifying in court but then I realized "this is my Camino".
I appreciate your thoughtful response to this thread. I do think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the function of #Metoo; if it's okay with you, I may message you if there's adequate time on the Camino.Oh, I totally agree with the need to report and prosecute genuine misconduct. However, here (in the US), the culture has become so toxic that even exchanging pleasantries with another gender is an iffy prospect. It is in my nature to smile at people as a general matter throughout the day, because I can. Sometimes the scowls, and muttered comments as people pass by are alarming. My "cringe" comment was a reference to that hyper-sensitized state I observe, nothing more.
My point is that the hashtag has become so overused here that is almost becomes lost in the din... it ceases to alarm or alert in many cases when it should. It seems that everyone uses it for every slight, no matter how small. It is sort of like the child's story of Peter and the wolf. I think you understand.
I did not, not would I ever seek to discount the feelings of any person who felt put upon or in any way assaulted, verbally or otherwise. The OP did the absolute correct thing in reporting and prosecuting this matter. I applaud her for remaining behind to testify in a court hearing. I like the others applaud he, and her friend going the extra mile, so to speak to prosecute this matter. I hope that others, so affected will do the same.
I also agree with you about 'no tocar.' A gentleman never goes where he is not invited. To presume is to make a fool of oneself...and this unfortunate fellow did.
Hope this helps calm down a tad...
Indeed. I have done this myself, and know many people who also just kept walking.Too often we walk away and push it under the rug.
My thanks too, Emo, with the hope that if I ever again encounter something 'over the line,' I will have the same strength of heart as you.Many thanks, @EmoJohnson
Agreed! I also call on the police to start monitoring the Camino, even using under cover female police officers. If previous incidents have been reported, then the Camino portion should be monitored.Thank you so much for taking action. It takes time and courage to do so....and it can't be easy in a second language.
I will say that I have seen a number of posts about unpleasant encounters like this and while people certainly empathize and agree that it's not ok, I often feel that there's sort of an underlying tone of 'Men can be creeps. That's just how it is'
I don't want to get all feminist here but it sure does suck that we still have to live knowing that men may well engage in unwanted sexual behaviour toward us. IT'S NOT OK. And it should never be that 'that's just how it is'. It's going to take an unrelenting army of us (both men and women) to keep standing up in these situations and saying 'that's not ok and you need to be held accountable for your actions'.
Kudos to you and may I have the same courage. (I often don't)
Agreed! I also call on the police to start monitoring the Camino, even using under cover female police officers. If previous incidents have been reported, then the Camino portion should be monitored.
Wow, just wow! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.Our intrepid Peregrina amigas are in the news. https://navarra.elespanol.com/artic...nas-camino-santiago/20180601135144194511.html
For those who don’t read Spanish, the article details how two American peregrinas testified about the actions detailed in earlier posts. Because of their testimony, the man has been arrested and will be prosecuted in Estella. A smiley face is totally inappropriate, I know, but this news is so heartening. Looks like there may be a bend in the long arc of machismo and entitlement in Spain. Heartfelt thanks to both of you.
Your avatar is perfect, Emo.Wow, just wow!
Very practical and useful information to have, @MinaKamina , thank you.This is the security plan of Navarra, other regions have similar plans. Note that the police stay in contact with the albergues, so you can also start with reporting your concerns there.
I'm with a woman I met on the Camino and we are in Estella in the process of filing a report with very receptive police (and a free lawyer " servicio asistencia a la mujer") who are taking our case seriously. Our breasts were groped by an older man on the road, directly following the pilgrim wine fountain at Irache. He approached under the guise of friendliness; it all happened so quickly. I felt slimed. I want other peregrinas to know about this and emphasize the policemen's attention to this. They report a similar incident occurred a few weeks ago.
They know who did it. They arrested him!people in the community will help figure out who did this.
I think Denise Thiem was a sea change for local authorities. It may take a while for complete change by the authorities, but her death was so shocking that I think it penetrated all the way into the local bars as well as law enforcement. The official response in this case is the beginning of her legacy. We owe her a debt of gratitude, and will for decades (and incidents) to come. Many of us with over a decade of reading about such incidents on the Camino can see how completely different this one was handled. In a sense, it was almost too easy because the assault and battery was by a local with a long history of such actions. When it is more of a "one time" incidentby a twenty-something in a bar, I can still see the end result being "boys will be boys." We will see.I am guessing the local authorities were more than displeased
I think Denise Thiem was a sea change for local authorities. It may take a while for complete change by the authorities, but her death was so shocking that I think it penetrated all the way into the local bars as well as law enforcement. The official response in this case is the beginning of her legacy. We owe her a debt of gratitude, and will for decades (and incidents) to come. Many of us with over a decade of reading about such incidents on the Camino can see how completely different this one was handled. In a sense, it was almost too easy because the assault and battery was by a local with a long history of such actions. When it is more of a "one time" incidentby a twenty-something in a bar, I can still see the end result being "boys will be boys." We will see.
Again, kudos to EmoJohnson.
When all law enforcement is as responsive, women can feel much more secure. It may take a while; police enforcement is generally by a pretty macho bunch who are reluctant to enforce laws that may apply to many of their friends on many Friday night bar hops. You can find male entitlement in the very earliest writings of mankind.
When Denise Thiem disappeared in 2015, the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea 2014 - 2016 was operational. This plan that encompasses autonomous regions, various bodies of police and guardia civíl and local authorities did not come falling out of the blue sky. A lot of work went into it, as it does today.
As soon as her disappearance was reported, the police analyzed the case ans concluded that it was disturbing and that Denise had most likely come to harm in the area where her remains were indeed found later. The man who was later convicted was the main suspect - though not the sole - from the beginning. Spanish law enforcement worked very hard to not only solve this case, but also to get the perpetrator convicted. There were no loose ends at the trial and all was done within the legal boundaries. I am delighted to inform that all appeals sofar have failed.
The general battle against all crimen de género is a big issue in Spain. Police and Guardia give it priority, collect data and report all incidents. Combined with the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea, peregrinas benefit enormeously.
I sometimes wonder if pilgrims are aware how much the Spanish authorities are doing for them? I see very little thank-you notes.
Three police cars passed me as I walked west that day. The last of the three stopped and a female officer asked me if I was alright (I was moving rather slowly on a rough slope). I appreciated their care for me.
I am generally opposed to taking two bites of the apple in posting on the Forum, which usually leads to heated debate/argument, but I am not sure that Spain should get a lot of credit for safety on the Camino pre-Denise. It took persistence from her brother to really start an investigation. Pre-Denise reactions to lewd exposure and even assault and battery were routinely dismissed. Nudity is legal, specifically in some provinces and as a practice in the rest, so lewd exposure was a low law enforcement priority, often regarded as just another aspect of nudity. Groping in bars and at San Fermines was considered part of the culture (think the butt pinch in Italy).
Once it was clear that Denise really had disappeared, the public relations disaster also became apparent, and Spanish law enforcement suddenly came alive. There had never been a previous murder of a pilgrim, and it shocked them. I am not sure they REALLY understand or acknowledge today that the casual handling of the previous assaults by the perpetrator was the gateway to the tragedy. Her brother Cedric eventually enlisted the assistance of Senator John McCain to make sure the Spanish effort was sincere, something that would not have been necessary if he thought the original effort was appropriate. He would be a good source for an opinion on the way law enforcement initially acted.
The police should get due credit for increasing the intensity of the investigation and the successful result, and the xuntas should get credit for the current safety measures. I think the Caminos were very safe, and I think they are even more safe with the new measures put in place by the authorities in Spain. New attitudes are illuminated by the past, but not by whitewashing the past. I still would assert that there is a new era of safety for which we owe Denise a debt that we can never repay.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?