Priscillian
Veteran Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
What do YOU think?“Apparently, the pagans have returned to take the road back,” I (Jack) said.
But I am a Catholic who will be completing the Camino for religious reasons. Am I in the minority? From what people on here have said, probably.
However, I know numerous people in my Parish community and local area that have done the Camino as Catholics for religious reasons.
In fact, the ONLY people I know in real-life that have done El Camino did it for the aforementioned reason.
It might be a bit early to get too jubilant about that scenario. In the fullness of time, Stephen Hawking may yet be found to be only clever to a point, that point being the “Big Bang”. Still a theory I believe.falcon269 said:Stephen Hawking will be a larger factor than Pagans, of which he is one, I suppose. When physics does not require god, how much is left for Christianity except its ethics??
oursonpolaire said:Others who started off with a recreativo walk in mind soon discovered that they were attending evening masses diligently.
Couldn't help thinking how MP would have enjoyed this thread. I'm sure he would have contributed with his usual wisdom & grace.Priscillian said:What do YOU think?
Ah, but it does exist and it "certainly" is an excellent topic, but I don’t think it can be separated from this conversation. Until proved otherwise, it is documentary evidence that needs to be included, however inconvenient in the measurement of peoples intentions. Because you “certainly” can’t prove that the thousands of people who apply for the Compostela are all liars.Priscillian said:Certainly if the Compostela did not exist we might get clearer answers (it is considered a Certificate of Achievement by most - but that´s another topic).
At the risk of real controversy, what do you consider Pagan? Non-Catholic, Non-Christian, Agnostic or Atheist?Priscillian said:Time to get some controversy
But even then Georgiana Goddard King will surely still survive 'm all online. Go, Tracy, go!falcon269 said:... going strong when Hape Kerkeling, Cohelo, MacLaine, and "The Way" are long forgotten.
colinPeter said:At the risk of real controversy, what do you consider Pagan? Non-Catholic, Non-Christian, Agnostic or Atheist?
So non-Catholics and potentially some Catholics were included along with followers of other mono-theistic religions, etc, etc.[go] first to the cathedral, participated in Holy Communion and prayed for the pope.
dougfitz said:If you are interested, the original article is at http://travel.nytimes.com/2013/04/2...-with-your-daughters.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.
Yes, “Burst into Being”, is I think a Hawking phrase, his claim is the universe didn't need any divine help for this “Burst into Being” to happen. However, that is still no evidence that there was not a divine being prior to it, and proves nothing as to whether there is a God who lives beyond the limitations of “Being” as we understand it.David said:The 'big bang' is rather an out of date description - as it is now (finally) understood that 'space-time' came into existence in one go, as it were - the universe 'whoooomphed' into spacial existence rather than exploded into existence - both physicists and religious can be in agreement - 'let there be light'
I like your distinction, but I don't think you would get much support from language purists. These are close synonyms in English, one coming from Latin, the other Germanic. They both allowed members of the emerging monotheist religions living in cities to attach what became a pejorative label to the unsophisticated and naive country folk with different beliefs. Neither implied atheism, just that the subject didn't adhere to the city dwellers clearly superior mono-theistic beliefs.Rebekah Scott said:I think there is a confusion of "pagan" and "heathen."
"Pagans" have beliefs based on a perceived past lineage that doesn´t include the Judeo-Christian.
"Heathen" don´t believe in any diety at all, except maybe the lasting value of a good dinner.
[snip]
colinPeter said:"There must exist, beyond mere appearances … a 'veiled reality' that science does not describe but only glimpses uncertainly. In turn, contrary to those who claim that matter is the only reality, the possibility that other means, including spirituality, may also provide a window on ultimate reality cannot be ruled out, even by cogent scientific arguments." Bernard d’Espagnat
ps. If this post "colapses" upon opening this thread, blame Schrodinger. :wink:
Yes, when you live away from the city lights, as I do, it is a wonder beyond comprehension, to walk outside and look up at the night sky.tony1951 said:the sense of awe I feel on looking up at night to see the vastness of creation has never waned
I’m not sure if the “traditional view of the universe”, as you were taught, is actually what the Catholic Church teaches. My understanding is that regarding cosmological evolution, the Church only declares that the universe was created out of nothing, produced by God out of nothing.tony1951 said:As a child, I was well instructed in the traditional Catholic view of the universe
Again,no defined Church position, other than development happened under the impetus and guidance of God, and the ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.tony1951 said:Evolution has given it to us
No, on the contrary, I would think your pilgrimage is very valuable and extremely real.tony1951 said:If I walk the way, marveling at the wonder of creation, delighting in the brotherhood of other pilgrims, the kindness of strangers, the opportunity to do a good turn to a tired or a lonely fellow traveler, is my pilgrimage less valuable, or real?
colinPeter said:[
I’m not sure if the “traditional view of the universe”, as you were taught, is actually what the Catholic Church teaches.
This teaching should not inhibit any wonder at the immensity and mystery of the universe.
tony1951 said:Evolution has given it to us
No, on the contrary, I would think your pilgrimage is very valuable and extremely real.tony1951 said:If I walk the way, marveling at the wonder of creation, delighting in the brotherhood of other pilgrims, the kindness of strangers, the opportunity to do a good turn to a tired or a lonely fellow traveler, is my pilgrimage less valuable, or real?
Big Bang, 'Darwin' [about plants and animals but not stones], gravity [we use it in space but we don't grasp what it is] are 'only' incomplete theories. All we know is that we know very little...tony1951 said:sentient beings
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:Big Bang, 'Darwin' [about plants and animals but not stones], gravity [we use it in space but we don't grasp what it is] are 'only' incomplete theories. All we know is that we know very little...tony1951 said:sentient beings
A quote in Wikipedia on sentient beings triggered my comment. Isn't it fascinating that we still have no clue what gravity is? It made me wonder whether perhaps we are not meant to discover those few secrets I mentioned by science and maybe religion is the best way to approach them?tony1951 said:our understanding of how this universe we occupy operates
Case closed? Why not keep trying? A new approach? As kids we had a joke with a box of Camel cigarettes: Suppose you're lost in a desert; all you can see is a camel and a tree and there is no water - now what? Answer: Turn the box, enter the oasis and wonder why you missed that corner.Priscillian said:how ... are we supposed to understand ...
The point about gravity is that we know a lot [we use it all the time, even to calculate space trips] but that we do not understand the essence. We seem to have no clue, or so I read recently in the press and saw on tv in quite a few very interesting and serious articles and talk shows.falcon269 said:Actually, we know a lot about gravity. It is just that we don't know everything about it. We have many more facts about gravity than we know facts about God.
So, again, can we think of other Ways? [I could think of one but fear Matron won't hear of it!] At least pilgrims should give it a try, because at the end of the day it's gravity that wears 'm out ..."Scientists of the mind are now studying the mechanics of how we all narrate our own stories in our brains, and Jack searches them out to answer the question everyone always asks him, “Why do these things always happen to you?” They don’t, the experiments show. We are all making up the truth, often to shield ourselves from what Jack discovers: the uncanny wonders that lie just beyond our brain’s notice. And that tale, it turns out, is another extravagant, almost unbelievable, true story."
i trust you mean from science? OK! Anyone?falcon269 said:I am confidant we will know more.
falcon269 said:....After all, we are not waiting more than 2,000 years for a status update! You can find Facebook pages on quantum physics, but so far there as not been one from the Supreme Being or His Son. Was the last word said? How about the Mormon update? Pat Robertson? Sun Myung Moon? Can we expect validation or rejection of them?
colinPeter said:Love it or hate it, the Catholic Church has been authoritatively giving updates from "the Supreme Being or His Son" for over 2000 years.
Not saying you have to believe it, so "keep your shirt on" :wink:
Buen Camino
Colin
falcon269 said:That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -Hitchens
WMD in Iraq is a good example.
falcon269 said:An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.
One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief.
Does this apply to art and ethics?falcon269 said:That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. -Hitchens.....
Excellent! A new approach! I had to look it up; we call it schering en inslag referring to weaving and similar often repeated patterns of behaviour and speach; things that people often say or do.nellpilgrim said:Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?
I recently learned that we cannot escape gravity. It may look or feel that way when the effect of speed of traveling [flying past or falling down to earth] equals that of gravity -gbescape the gravity of earth
According to Jack Hitt's analysis, the true pagans should be easy to count. They’ll be the ones bypassing Santiago Cathedral, the pilgrim mass, the pilgrim office and heading straight to Finisterre.PILGRIMSPLAZA said:...'In one town, we came upon a gallery filled with ancient pilgrim art. The sponsor of the show was Opus Dei, a Catholic group known for its adherence to tradition. A young cleric approached and offered his view that true pilgrims were those who met three conditions — they went first to the cathedral, participated in Holy Communion and prayed for the pope.
In my crummy Spanish, I reminded him that the road had been a spiritual walk long before Christianity. Pagans and Goths and other non-Christian people walked the road, also known as the Via Láctea (the Milky Way) because even at night, it was said, one could follow the path west. The town they were aiming for, though, was not Santiago so much as the little town farther on — Finisterre (End of the Earth, until 1492). As the westernmost spit of land on the Spanish mainland, it was a place of mystical obsession long before an errant hermit found St. James’s sepulcher.
The cleric held his own. At one point, we both looked out the window at the motley parade. “Apparently, the pagans have returned to take the road back,” I said.'
David said:Others, of other faiths or none, heretic, pagan, Jedi, great spaghetti monster followers, can believe exactly what they want to believe - ..... but when they are going to Santiago they are on a Roman Catholic pilgrimage - this is how it is, this is why the Compostela is written in Latin, this is why there are so many Christian organisations along the way, so many ruined monasteries and convents ... so, all, All, are guests of the Roman Catholic church.
Don't you think?
Buen Camino
David
Coram Deo
David said:so, all, All, are guests of the Roman Catholic church.
Don't you think?
Kanga said:Don't forget that the first pilgrimages to Santiago occurred when the only form of Christianity was that now known as Catholic. So other Christian denominations also share that heritage.
falcon269 said:Weren't both the warp and weft of the Emporer's clothes imaginary? If only one was imaginary, would he still have been naked, or would the factual material have clothed him?
I think David has already answered that:falcon269 said:David: Are you stating a fact or an opinion?
:?David said:it is just a personal opinion, just thoughts made up in one's head - in this Age of the Individual the norm has become - "whatever I think has merit, merely because I think it" - which is patently incorrect.
"Given that many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church, and others are not believers, I give this blessing from my heart, in silence, to each one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you, but knowing that each one of you is a child of God." - Pope Francisfalcon269 said:The category of Religious and Other does not seem to me to flow logically from the history, dogma, or religion of the pilgrimage and Catholic Church. A Compostela for non-Catholics is nicely inclusive, but very illogical.
falcon269 said:The Archconfraternity with headquarters in the Cathedral is a Catholic lay organization to support Christian pilgrimage. It approves other confraternities if they are properly organized, including approval of a Bishop. Are any of the Confraternities Protestant based?
So it is a Catholic pilgrimage, soft peddled as Christian for unexplained reasons! I have always wondered if it is marketing to get converts or economic to get money, or if non-Catholics are something slightly less than welcome! The category of Religious and Other does not seem to me to flow logically from the history, dogma, or religion of the pilgrimage and Catholic Church. A Compostela for non-Catholics is nicely inclusive, but very illogical.
"Pagans" are free to follow the yellow arrows, but I think they are fooling themselves if they call it a pilgrimage. Perhaps it is more accurate to call it a contemplative walk. Ditto Protestants...
Hola Susanna,Susannafromsweden said:They are working on the long route which will connect Santiago with Vadstena and Nidaros, which will unite us. So it will be a long pilgrim route between holy places, supported by the Lutheran church in one end and the catholic at the other end.
nellpilgrim said:falcon269 said:An opinion cannot be right or wrong. It is simply an assertion of a belief.
One can hold cherished beliefs that are wrong, and have good outcomes, and vice versa, but the outcome is a bad index for the validity of the belief. The value of science is that it deals with verifiable and repeatable data, not speculation that exists uniquely for an individual. It offers a much improved path to truth than mere belief.
Science itself has not been nor is free of it's own rigid orthodoxies and all that that implies for free enquiry/alternative interpretations.
Perhaps one perspective is the warp the other the weft... and we weave our, merely human, understanding of truth out of both?
Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims? :wink:tony1951 said:The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
colinPeter said:Hola Susanna,Susannafromsweden said:They are working on the long route which will connect Santiago with Vadstena and Nidaros, which will unite us. So it will be a long pilgrim route between holy places, supported by the Lutheran church in one end and the catholic at the other end.
That would be quite a walk. I found Vadstena on the map but is Nideros the one in Sweden or Nidaros Cathedral (Nidaros Domkirke), Kongsgårdsgata, Trondheim, Norway?
Can you tell us what the significance of Vadstena and Nidaros is to Lutherans.
Buen Camino
Colin
David said:No guys - the thoughts that come up in ones head can be checked against external reality, this is what decides whether they have merit or not - I have been writing about external reality - it is a Roman Catholic pilgrimage :wink:
Buen Camino Peregrinos/as
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims? :wink:tony1951 said:The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:Right [I suppose :?]..., but so what about gravity and pilgrims? :wink:tony1951 said:The 'orthodoxies' of science are methodological and do not apply to the findings or laws.
I have long been interested in this but still have not found any 'primary source' for the statement. As Wikipedia would say "citation needed"!tony1951 said:as has already been pointed out more than once, the route's use as a pilgrim trail precedes the Christian era.
I like the explanation at http://pilegrimsleden.no/en/pilgrim. When I walked St Olav's Way, there was much more emphasis on the cultural, natural history and spiritual reasons for making the pilgrimage, NOT on there being a religious rationale. This seemed generally consistent with my (relatively simple) understanding of the Norse Church's Lutheran roots, with its rejection of pilgrimage as a religious practice when it was formed in the early 16thC along with other elements of Catholic practice relating to indulgences and the veneration of saints.colinPeter said:Can you tell us what the significance of Vadstena and Nidaros is to Lutherans.
Buen Camino
Colin
Hi Tony,tony1951 said:I'm not sure what you are asking.
David said:Marvellous!!!!!!!! :!: :!: :!: :!:
Lydia Gillen said:I do not think that large numbers of these people were telling lies just to get a compostela. Why on earth would a pagan want a document stating that they have journeyed " for love of God".
I think the difficulty here, Lydia (and thank you very much for your time and your two cents worth!) is that while we are conflating religious/spiritual with a Christian God, many of those walking for spiritual reasons would find that entirely unnecessary, hence the rather loosely put together "Pagan/pagan" designation (and I see no need for the capital letter) and therein lies the question.
Most people don´t have the faintest idea what their Compostela says, and anyway, take away the capital G and maybe there isn´t much of a difference between the groups anyway. Pilgrims want the Compostela, not the Historical/Cultural certificate (I have three Compostelas, one Historical/Cultural certificate and a Fisterrana and I rather like the last best). Not lies exactly, just a shuffling of terminology.
A "pagan", as was explained very early on in this thread is the country dweller:
Tincatinker said:Ah, "old Paganus"' the villager, the country dweller. Rejecting all these monotheistic institutions imposed by the powerful and instead embracing the old gods of fire and wind, those that babble in the brooks and groan deep in the ground. Still following the sun to the end of the world.
For the love of God, or the love off gods??? Religious OR spiritual, and perhaps very rarely both.
Hola Tony,tony1951 said:When I first walked the Camino Frances in about 1997, I stayed the first night at Roncevalles after crossing the Route Napoleon. I well remember a young monk there asked all of us who stayed to fill in a survey form declaring our motivation for doing the pilgrimage. As I recall the categories were religious, cultural and sporting. They subdivided the religious part under Catholic and non Catholic Christians. There was no sense that non-Catholics or non-Religious people were unwelcome there - a sense I do not entirely feel here, I am sorry to say.
falcon269 said:Nell: I don't see how having flawed scientists invalidates science. Religions are equally protective of orthodoxy, but the debate ends when the word of god is invoked. Scientists keep digging, and are impossible to silence. Would that the Catholic Church should be open minded on the work of its American nuns.
And there are thousands of scientists who stand their ground. Singling one out is a bit unfair to the rest!
Hola Priscillian,Priscillian said:I think the difficulty here, Lydia.......
It doesn't really matter what we think, the only documentary answer available is the statistics given by the pilgrim office.Priscillian said:What do YOU think?
Another eye-opener: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/ ... -interview - 'Shechtman was the sole winner of the Nobel prize for chemistry in 2011, for his discovery of seemingly impossible crystal structures in metal alloys. Instead of the regular pattern seen in other crystallised materials, the atoms in his "quasi-period materials" were arranged so that they were regular but never repeated. It is a type of pattern seen in the tiled Islamic mosaics at the Alhambra Palace in Spain and the Darb-i Imamshrine in Iran, but which had never been thought could exist in nature.'nellpilgrim said:Dan Shechtman's battle to have his discovery tested and accepted shows us that not only can a determined David win but that the Goliath of scientific orthodoxy exists.
PILGRIMSPLAZA said:Another eye-opener: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/ ... -interview - 'Shechtman was the sole winner of the Nobel prize for chemistry in 2011, for his discovery of seemingly impossible crystal structures in metal alloys. Instead of the regular pattern seen in other crystallised materials, the atoms in his "quasi-period materials" were arranged so that they were regular but never repeated. It is a type of pattern seen in the tiled Islamic mosaics at the Alhambra Palace in Spain and the Darb-i Imamshrine in Iran, but which had never been thought could exist in nature.'nellpilgrim said:Dan Shechtman's battle to have his discovery tested and accepted shows us that not only can a determined David win but that the Goliath of scientific orthodoxy exists.
We're getting closer already!
Yes, very! I bet we would agree on the subject within a few minutes, depending how good the coffee is. You already made my day! Thank you. I'm off to the beach now, very lightheartedlynellpilgrim said:Isn't that intriguing?
marian55 said:Hola,
If only, according to my church, :arrow: :arrow: true Catholics would walk the Way to Santiago it would be very quiet on the road. I would not be there. Yet I am a Catholic.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?