Naturaleza
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Primitivo 04_2024
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That is the magical of the Camino: we meet other people who do not have anything common with us, but we often become friends because first the basic questions arise. Where to sleep ? What to eat ? How to cure this pain ?Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes.
For me, pilgrimage began as a selfish project but quickly become another way, with something higher.For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine
Maybe in a week or more I might have something more to say, but for now: I am sorry your experience has not been positive re the people. A further question: how is your everyday life experience of people?Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
You seem to be suggesting that because someone does not wish to enter into conversation with you on a topic of your choice they have no interest or respect for that matter. Why do you assume that it is the duty of other pilgrims to be your audience? Or to wear their concerns or intentions on their sleeves? I have had many profound conversations with other pilgrims over the years but they have all evolved gently and gradually with mutual interest and respect on both sides. I do not feel obliged to be a sounding board for each and every pilgrim's personal topic of interest. I would suggest that it is more selfish to use the captive audience of fellow pilgrims to push a personal agenda than it is for others to decline to engage with you on these topics.Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes?
Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
While I understand your pain how we as mankind treat this planet and life on it, I wonder why you could not talk about these things to anyone. I myself could talk about it for hours and I know many who are moved by these things.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
And how did you get this information? Did they tell you this upfront or is this your own subjective guessing?Having done the CF in 2019 and the CP in 2023 I can say that there are more and more people out there seeking an ego-boost or because it's a thing "someone should do".
And even if it is done as an ego boost ... why not? If this is what they want and need, good for them (as long as it does not bring disadvantages for others).Having done the CF in 2019 and the CP in 2023 I can say that there are more and more people out there seeking an ego-boost or because it's a thing "someone should do".
Both pilgrimages that I've done out of thankfulness and seeking myself while meeting many people that have many exceptional differing motives to walk. I don't judge them, I feel grateful that I'm able to walk those age old, sometimes transitional, routes to SdC.
I admit, that I didn't came across total selfishness, neither on the Caminos, nor on the "Ökumenische Pilgerweg" in Germany.
I know they are different things, but there is some connection. However I claim both can be good for certain people. You maybe think of people with a huge ego getting even more on top, but I think of people who always put themselves low, last and allow others to exploit them, are never heard and listened to. And I am not talking of introverts here, but about people who silently suffer from having a too small ego. For me "ego" is a scale - were too low and too high is destructive for yourself or for others and there is a "healthy" range in between.An ego boost and a boost in confidence are two very different things. The Camino can do either depending on the person.
Oh, I talk. Simple as that.And how did you get this information? Did they tell you this upfront or is this your own subjective guessing?
It seems that you are judging?
Oh, I talk. Simple as that.
I think we agree, Alex - it's language. That's what I mean when I use the word 'confidence.' A shorthand for self-confidence. In my book ego's never a good thing.I know they are different things, but there is some connection. However I claim both can be good for certain people. You maybe think of people with a huge ego getting even more on top, but I think of people who always put themselves low, last and allow others to exploit them, are never heard and listened to. And I am not talking of introverts here, but about people who silently suffer from having a too small ego. For me "ego" is a scale - were too low and too high is destructive for yourself or for others and there is a "healthy" range in between.
Well, sometimes we as listeners confuse someone being happy about his achievements and telling others with flexing.Oh, I talk. Simple as that.
And if s/b flexes about his "speed", I couldn't care less!
I could get deeper into this and explain why I see confidence as a slightly different thing, but this would not really fit in here ;-) Let us agree it is in the end a question of definitions ... as we know we mean the same things.I think we agree, Alex - it's language. That's what I mean when I use the word 'confidence.' A shorthand for self-confidence. In my book ego's never a good thing.
The time after return from the Camino gives us space to reflect on the good and not so good and the positive and negative aspects. Here is an extract from my thoughts after the Primitivo.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
Yip, for shure! btw: ditto!But do you also listen? Anyway : Buen Camino!
That's why I used it in that specific topic. That, in facts, counts too for the word "flexing".I think we agree, Alex - it's language. That's what I mean when I use the word 'confidence.' A shorthand for self-confidence. In my book ego's never a good thing.
On that special occasion, that's what happened. The only topic was the kms somebody walks and nothing else. No Buen Camino, no other questions, no hello and good bye.Yes. Did we look down on the people we left behind? Never.
Those fires in particular last year were arson, if I remember correctly.By the way, don't blame much of the fire destruction on 'climate change'.
Most of them were not arson, but farmers burning down gorse and other bushes to create more pasture land. The fires got out of hand due to recknessless, indifference and the very dry weather. The latter one is definitely a sign of climate change. Asturias is getting dryer every year.Those fires in particular last year were arson, if I remember correctly.
. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
I was not questioning that the boasting egomaniac type exists on the camino. Not at all. I just wanted to say that when you only see a fraction of a person and only a brief moment of what they do and say, one can be deceived and come to wrong conclusions. I guess if someone sat next to us and listened to bits of our conversation, he could have taken us as boasting egomaniacs.On that special occasion, that's what happened. The only topic was the kms somebody walks and nothing else. No Buen Camino, no other questions, no hello and good bye.
You can be proud for yourself on your achievements, but telling everyone around without asking? IDK!
To come back to the original question ... I would say yes, a pilgrimage is selfish in a way. Most things we enjoy are selfish in a way.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
"It takes time for many people just to connect with their own lives and their own bodies"........Excellent!We can only change ourselves.
And it takes time.
It takes time for many people just to connect with their own lives and their own bodies, let alone those of other beings.
Not everyone lives to help others. But you can.
I think some of this may be an unfortunate sign of the times. On my first and second pilgrimages before COVID (2014 and 2016), I remember talking with a lot of people about a lot of subjects. Many of whom did not agree with my philosophy or direction - but we talked and got along.
On my last few pilgrimages, I too noticed that people were more hesitant to talk about anything substantial (other than blisters). Perhaps, we've just become too sensitized to being attached by trolls on the Internet to realize that people can talk with each other. We'll see what happens on my next pilgrimage on the Via del Norte in a few months.
Yes, things that ruin family and friends are (talking about) politics (everything related), religion, and borrowing money. Ultreia et Suseia.My wife and I have walked two long caminos. We found that a lot of people walking those caminos were in a state of transition (as were we) - trying to find themselves, looking perhaps for new direction, seeking respite and rejuvination from some sort of ending, often painful, in their lives. To an extent, that mindset is "selfish" - it's a focus on self. I think some of those people, ourselves included, were looking for time away from all the stress, anger and hopelessness in our world. We found ourselves often doing a lot more listening than talking.
It's sometimes hard to know, but trying to understand where another pilgrim is in their life helps to connect better with them. I found the pilgrims we met, with extremely rare exceptions, to be extraordinary people and more willing to interact on a wide variety of topics than in our normal life. But just like at greater family dinners, we weren't trying to bring politics, religion, or emotionally charged subjects up with people we had just met. For many, the real world and its harsh realities makes its appearance soon enough after finishing a pilgrimage. We just hope that our pilgrimage can result in our facing those realities with more insight, generosity and courage.
As always...it seems to be a bit more complicated than that.Most of them were not arson, but farmers burning down gorse and other bushes to create more pasture land. The fires got out of hand due to recknessless, indifference and the very dry weather. The latter one is definitely a sign of climate change. Asturias is getting dryer every year.
Climate change has always existed long before we humans arrived on the planet. It’s part of the planet’s nature process.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems.
Climate change has always existed long before we humans arrived on the planet. It’s part of the planet’s nature process.
Of course there has always been climate change, when it was fast, it was often combined with collapsing ecosystems and sometimes mass extinction. That sort of fast climate change is something human civilizations have not experienced on a global level yet. In fact, human civilizations could only develop and thrive in this long phase of rather stable climate. Then there has always been "climate creep", slow changes in climate and global temperatures. Here ecosystems and humans can adapt - much less of a problem.Climate change has always existed long before we humans arrived on the planet. It’s part of the planet’s nature process.
Thanks, and a note to others as well, that further discussion on climate change is liable to lead to closure of the thread!But I will leave it to that as this is not a discussion forum for climate change.
I did the Camino last year for the second time (first time over 20 years ago). I did have some of this experience that you describe. Not exactly the same issues in the same ways, but it did strike me as incongruous that we were all appreciating the natural beauty -- but flying hours to get there, which destroys it. I imagined the environmental damage from so many people every year doing this. Probably thousands of long flights happen every year just to get pilgrims to the Camino. If the Camino truly moves us to reverence for creation, which people often say, you'd think we'd all return home determined to minimize the use of fossil fuels in our lives and cut down on future air travel. I wondered if that actually happens for too many people. If the Camino is truly impactful, things in our daily lives AFTER the Camino should change.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
Show me a person who is not selfish, and I will show you a non-human. Show me a person who says they are not selfish, and I will show you a liar. Selfishness, both the good selfishness and the bad selfishness, exist in every single human being on earth--no exception. And besides, even if a Camino is done wrongly, with not one iota of a spiritual factor with completely and total selfishness involved (although this is an impossibility in and of itself), it is a Camino completed and may be a key step on moving to a different/higher spiritual plane. Each person is on their own path in life, spiritual or otherwise, and not only must make and endure this journey, but is compelled to do so even if, from a distance, it appears to be a useful and wasteful journey. Appreciate, value, and understand where a person is in life, even if it one of darkest places imaginable.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
Cognitive Dissonance. We all do it to some extent in order to live in this world.Been back for a week from the Camono Primitivo, my heart is full of overwhelming gratefulness for this experience, but also full of disappointment.
On one side, I enjoyed a beautiful and astonishing landscape. Special flowers beside the paths, little animals crossing my way and a silent and meditativ atmoshere. I soaked up every glimpse.
On the other side, I felt a lot of grief. Seeing so many dead, dried up trees, whole forests: dead. Wildfires took place and destroyed hughe areas. Climate change visible constantly.
I also registered animal farms everywhere, pigs screaming loud from the inside of the closed buildings. Chicken visible in iron cages on a farm. Animals living in dirty places.
When I spoke with other pilgrims, talking was only appreciated, as long as none of this unpleasent points where addressed. I learnt that pilgrims want to speak about daily business as albergues, equipment or physical problems. Or, very important, about the inner development, mindshifts.
After all this, I am disappointed by the people on the camino. Walking in nature, but not honor this base of our lifes? Flying all around the world to destroy what we want to enjoy? Eating together and celebrating at the expense of suffering creatures next to us? Just talking about personal matters or superficial themes. For me, pilgrimage seems to be by far a selfish project, I couldn't remark something divine. There surely will be exceptions, I met also one such person, which was a pleasure. Now I am interested to read the experiences and thoughts of the comunity.
::: chuckle::: Who's assuming that the people the OP met don't want a better world?The OP has a point. Getting to the Camino is going to be in some way detrimental to our planet - how much is just a guess.
Walking past concrete buildings with screaming animals in as happened to me in Galicia should never fail to affect you, because if it does you are already too dead to bother with the Camino.
Maybe not everyone wants to hear these things, and I get that, ignorance is bliss. But don't turn on someone who at their heart wants this world to be better.
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