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I felt that for some reason that I don't know, most Italians I met in the Camino were cyclists.I met a great bunch of young Italian cyclists a couple of years ago between Logrono & Burgos.
1 - Agreed. There is no excuse.Oh, please - there is no excuse for running into anyone - as in downhill skiing, it is the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid hitting anyone in front of him
Alternatively, all bikes should be fitted with some brakes
Ditto. We did walk with a couple different Italian couples, and an Italian who was a chef in Paris, but most Italians we encountered seemed to be on 2 wheels.I felt that for some reason that I don't know, most Italians I met in the Camino were cyclists.
Just curious....
I'm not sure that walkers ignored the bikers. I'm not sure the bikers ignored the walkers.It always causes problems when bikes and walkers use the same path. It is just never a good mix and problems will consistently arise when either party ignores the other.
We were shocked when we did the Camino Frances in April/May at the lack of bicycle etiquette. In Australia almost all bike riders ring their bells or call out to warn you. On the whole Camino only 2 used a bell and about the same number called out a warning. A few yelled Buen Camino as they hurtled past ( way too late) but hundreds ignored walkers.Outside of Pamplona we saw a group of bikers collide with some English women. Fortunately no real injuries. Many people yelled "BIKE! BIKE!" as they passed. Germans were yelling "ACHTUNG!" The bikers passed at a speed that was a bit too high but it was a downhill section and the trail section was wide. The collision occurred because the women were walking 4 abreast across the trail and they apparently didn't hear any of the many warnings.
We saw many "near misses" all along the trail. We also saw many very considerate bikers who tried to be very careful. The downhill sections are difficult for the bikers when walkers are side-by-side across the trail. I saw no biking pilgrims who wanted to collide with walking pilgrims.
THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE: Outside of Sarria we saw an insane teenage biker intentionally pedal at high speed through a group of high school pilgrims. He had no packs, was not dressed like a pilgrim biker, his bike was not like other Camino bikes; I presume he was a local resident acting like a jerk.
The first incident would likely have been avoided by if the bikers had bells, or some warning device other than their voices, on their bikes.
Many of the "near misses" would also be eliminated by use of a simple bell mounted to the grip of the bike. Of course pilgrims wearing earbuds wouldn't likely hear a bell, a shout, or even a bullhorn. But a bell will dramatically increase safety for everyone.
I agree to get a bell, but seems it's a spanish thing no bells love to open a bike bell shop.Outside of Pamplona we saw a group of bikers collide with some English women. Fortunately no real injuries. Many people yelled "BIKE! BIKE!" as they passed. Germans were yelling "ACHTUNG!" The bikers passed at a speed that was a bit too high but it was a downhill section and the trail section was wide. The collision occurred because the women were walking 4 abreast across the trail and they apparently didn't hear any of the many warnings.
We saw many "near misses" all along the trail. We also saw many very considerate bikers who tried to be very careful. The downhill sections are difficult for the bikers when walkers are side-by-side across the trail. I saw no biking pilgrims who wanted to collide with walking pilgrims.
THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE: Outside of Sarria we saw an insane teenage biker intentionally pedal at high speed through a group of high school pilgrims. He had no packs, was not dressed like a pilgrim biker, his bike was not like other Camino bikes; I presume he was a local resident acting like a jerk.
The first incident would likely have been avoided by if the bikers had bells, or some warning device other than their voices, on their bikes.
Many of the "near misses" would also be eliminated by use of a simple bell mounted to the grip of the bike. Of course pilgrims wearing earbuds wouldn't likely hear a bell, a shout, or even a bullhorn. But a bell will dramatically increase safety for everyone.
hi , you made some great points in your post i think.i have walked a few times on the camino frances,most of the bikers were great,and i know it may sound strange to say some of the bells were "get out of my way I am coming past " others sounded like" excuse me i am passing be careful " when walking many people are deep in thought so you should not feel bad to ring the bell,as a walker i did get angry when a mass of bikes came past us with little or no warning,i saw an older guy with a heavy pack stumble badly and knock his head due to a bunch of fast bikes startling him with bing bing get out of my way bells at the last minute,its not so easy to jump to the side of the track with a large pack and tired bones.a thank you or buen camino goes a long way to help .but dont feel bad about ringing that bell you sound like a polite chap,wish you well and agree with trying to find empathy ,I've biked several sections of the portuguese variants of the camino and bike regularly on road, cross-country and cycle-ways.
There is no great solution for conflict between walkers and bikers, there will allways be some disturbance caused.
My experience is that there is no perfect option to alert walkers to my presence.
I've called "Bom caminho" from near and from afar, it works but almost allways startles those walking. Even if one is at low speed, peoples expectation when they see a bike is speed, so in a split second, fight or flight mechanism quicks in to avoid colision.
Bell states clearly it is a bike and should be heard from far away. I say should, because it is my experience that even those not wearing earphones only acknowledge the bell when very close. Such is the bliss of the introspection allowed by the camino that everything else is becomes secondary. Also, its hard not to feel like an jerk, ringing the bell. Its the same as yelling "I'm a bike, let me through", especially when there many walkers spread out.
Whether its greeting people, ringing the bell or using music out of portable speakers, some form of warning must be used. Together with the most important tools of common sense, empathy and understanding, we can all tolerate each other on the camino.
I too love your bell - it sounds a bit like the one I have on my bike - I usually sound it two or three times (plus call out) and usually have a plan B - be prepared to stop.It'a a two way thing. On the other hand there's no excuse for being ill mannered whether on a bike or foot. Personally I LOVE my bell:
http://www.lionbellworks.co.uk/ scroll down to the bottom of the page to listen to it!
Agreed. I too met polite & considerate bikers. They often yelled out. But voices, especially on the later parts of the trail are often drowned out by other voices on the trail. Maybe a bell is not the perfect answer, but a simple bell should help alert walkers.For the record, most cyclist were polite and considerate. I especially appreciated when the leader of a group told us "be careful, we are many" and the last "ok, I am the last one".
Very good and very true. I welcome walkers, bikers, baby buggy pushers, horses, etc on any trail upon which I tread but we must all understand our place and our responsibility. A biker with a simple bell to alert those ahead of him would go a long way to increasing safety for all.I believe the majority of the responsibility falls on the shoulders of bikers because they go faster and can do more damage to others. That speed is the problem for walkers. It is the same reason bikers don't want to stick to the roads mixing it up with the cars - those cars go even faster than bikes and they win in collisions.
And that is the whole point. For those who wish to cycle the Camino routes I say Buen Camino ... but please get a bell.Yes, bells would help and, at busy times, we'll be complaining about the noise pollution
2 points.I have just returned from cycling from Porto to Muxia via Santiago... everybody was friendly except a German couple who remonstrated with me for not having a bell, what difference it would have made I don't know as we both saw each other from a distance... Why do people listen to their Ipods or radios when out in the countryside, there are lots of birds, butterflies and the sounds of nature to take up your time. ...
1 - Agreed. There is no excuse.
2 - Never saw a bike that was not fitted with brakes. In fact most of the bikes seemed to be very high dollar bikes with top of the line everything, including brakes.
And clearly (as I stated) the bikers had no desire to crash their (often expensive) bikes into anyone, most were actually very polite.
I simply was trying to give some advice to those who may wish to bike the Camino that everyone on the trail would be much safer, and people would gladly move out of the way, if the biker had a bell to provide advance warning.
I was surprised by bikers who "snuck up on me" while I was walking. Some surfaces are loud, some are very quite. In some stretches of the Camino a bike, or even a whole group of bikers, can easily come up upon walkers who never hear the bike(s) approaching.
Ditto. We did walk with a couple different Italian couples, and an Italian who was a chef in Paris, but most Italians we encountered seemed to be on 2 wheels.
I'm not sure that walkers ignored the bikers. I'm not sure the bikers ignored the walkers.
I think sometimes people are just in their own thoughts or conversations and they become oblivious to things around them.
That is why I suggested a simple bell. There are very few metallic sounds on the Camino trails. A bell stands out. Some bikers had them and they seemed to garner the attention of the walkers.
After a number of near misses with speeding bicycles (most made no warning noise at all) I would like to see separate trails on hilly and narrow sectionsOutside of Pamplona we saw a group of bikers collide with some English women. Fortunately no real injuries. Many people yelled "BIKE! BIKE!" as they passed. Germans were yelling "ACHTUNG!" The bikers passed at a speed that was a bit too high but it was a downhill section and the trail section was wide. The collision occurred because the women were walking 4 abreast across the trail and they apparently didn't hear any of the many warnings.
We saw many "near misses" all along the trail. We also saw many very considerate bikers who tried to be very careful. The downhill sections are difficult for the bikers when walkers are side-by-side across the trail. I saw no biking pilgrims who wanted to collide with walking pilgrims.
THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE: Outside of Sarria we saw an insane teenage biker intentionally pedal at high speed through a group of high school pilgrims. He had no packs, was not dressed like a pilgrim biker, his bike was not like other Camino bikes; I presume he was a local resident acting like a jerk.
The first incident would likely have been avoided by if the bikers had bells, or some warning device other than their voices, on their bikes.
Many of the "near misses" would also be eliminated by use of a simple bell mounted to the grip of the bike. Of course pilgrims wearing earbuds wouldn't likely hear a bell, a shout, or even a bullhorn. But a bell will dramatically increase safety for everyone.
I do appreciate that everyone here is replying with generally positive posts. But I'm somewhat mystified why more of the Camino cyclists among our ranks are not really contributing. I'd love to hear more from their perspective.
Agreed. I too met polite & considerate bikers. They often yelled out. But voices, especially on the later parts of the trail are often drowned out by other voices on the trail. Maybe a bell is not the perfect answer, but a simple bell should help alert walkers.
Very good and very true. I welcome walkers, bikers, baby buggy pushers, horses, etc on any trail upon which I tread but we must all understand our place and our responsibility. A biker with a simple bell to alert those ahead of him would go a long way to increasing safety for all.
And that is the whole point. For those who wish to cycle the Camino routes I say Buen Camino ... but please get a bell.
And yes, I might complain if the noise of the bells drowns out the tranquility of the trail but I already complained about the noise of kids boom boxes and large groups of loud talkers doing that from Sarria to Santiago so let's deal with 1 issue at a time. For now, I'll trade the dinging of a bell over a collision and an injury.
2 points.
First the German couple may have glanced your way but may not have actually 'seen' you. Much like when a husband 'tunes out' the jabber of his wife when she rattles off the latest 'honey-do' list, people often glance around without actually "seeing" things when they are in contemplated thought. So perhaps the Germans looked at you but didn't really see you? Even if you are a slow cyclist you'd probably have to admit that a bell would have helped.
Second, as the iPods, that is something I don't understand either. I admit that I did not see much of that on my recently completed Camino but I did see some that walked with earbuds and were presumably tuning out the sounds of the Camino to tune into their personal music choices.
As a walker, I have devised a way to walk to eliminate the stress of impending cyclists on my ass. I always leave a free path for the cyclist to pass me. If I am walking with one other person and it's a narrow path, I walk single file. If it's a wider path and I'm walking either solo or with others, I not only leave a path for the cyclist to pass us but I also suggest that our group walks on one side of the trail or the other, but not in the middle. That makes it clear for a cyclist which side to pass on, rather than having to guess if the group will go left or right when they hear a bell. Oh, one other thing: if I'm walking along and I see another walker ahead of me, I automatically switch to the side the walker ahead of me is walking - that way a cyclist does not have to change lanes in between us to avoid us both. These practices come from not wanting to have to think about cyclists behind me (they can easily pass) and to be polite to cyclists. P.S. I personally hate to bicycle. It's the most uncomfortable sport I've ever tried.
not stressful at all. I don't even think about it. it's all automatic for me.My God your walk seems very stressful I just carry a european hospital card so no worries.
My God your walk seems very stressful I just carry a european hospital card so no worries.
Had a couple of near misses with bikes the worst on the trail down from Cruz de Ferro. Ignorant would not be the word to describe these bikers. On another occasion on the trail down to the Rio Saldo just before Lorca, a cyclist demanded I step off the dry part of the path into the mud. I refused and he got very irate eventually cycling very fast through a muddy puddle. His intention to splash me did not work, he got a young Korean girl. On the other hand, I met a cyclist in Navarette who enjoyed our company so much, he chose to walk with us the next morning. The vast majority of them are probably just like any other pilgrim but the odd few get them all a bad nameOutside of Pamplona we saw a group of bikers collide with some English women. Fortunately no real injuries. Many people yelled "BIKE! BIKE!" as they passed. Germans were yelling "ACHTUNG!" The bikers passed at a speed that was a bit too high but it was a downhill section and the trail section was wide. The collision occurred because the women were walking 4 abreast across the trail and they apparently didn't hear any of the many warnings.
We saw many "near misses" all along the trail. We also saw many very considerate bikers who tried to be very careful. The downhill sections are difficult for the bikers when walkers are side-by-side across the trail. I saw no biking pilgrims who wanted to collide with walking pilgrims.
THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE: Outside of Sarria we saw an insane teenage biker intentionally pedal at high speed through a group of high school pilgrims. He had no packs, was not dressed like a pilgrim biker, his bike was not like other Camino bikes; I presume he was a local resident acting like a jerk.
The first incident would likely have been avoided by if the bikers had bells, or some warning device other than their voices, on their bikes.
Many of the "near misses" would also be eliminated by use of a simple bell mounted to the grip of the bike. Of course pilgrims wearing earbuds wouldn't likely hear a bell, a shout, or even a bullhorn. But a bell will dramatically increase safety for everyone.
I agree. They are like a flock of seagulls - they arrive, make a lot of noise, and then depart again.I felt that for some reason that I don't know, most Italians I met in the Camino were cyclists.
Just curious....
I have to agree with newfydog your actions are not only irresponsible they are highly dangerous both to the cyclist and YOU. My other problem is that these actions are totally inconsistent with the role of hospitareo. Your duties here are to welcome ALL pilgrims equally - not discriminate.The first time I was on the FR I was on a bicycle. I was very intentional about alerting walkers. Even waiting for a break in their conversations to let them know I was behind them. As far as MY pilgrimage experience on the bike, I'd give it a "meh" rating.
I went back 2 years later to walk and to serve in a pilgrim's hostel. I took the swinging my poles around in circles when I heard cyclists coming up behind me. I gave one or two a good wack too. "Oh, sorry", I'd say. "I didn't know you were there. Maybe you could warn walkers." I don't wear earbuds or listen to music. I don't always hear so good.
I'll probably get skewered for my next comment. I really don't think cyclists belong on the foot paths. .... Please be aware of the walkers.
[QUOTE="obinjatoo@yahoo.com, post: 434061, member: 19616"I took the swinging my poles around in circles when I heard cyclists coming up behind me. I gave one or two a good wack too. "Oh, sorry", I'd say. "I didn't know you were there. .
Pfft!I have to agree with newfydog your actions are not only irresponsible they are highly dangerous both to the cyclist and YOU. My other problem is that these actions are totally inconsistent with the role of hospitareo. Your duties here are to welcome ALL pilgrims equally - not discriminate.
As for cyclists on the walking tracks versus the roads - well yes were the road runs parallel to the Camino I always took the road, but having walked the Camino you will be aware that much of the trail is in fact composed of rural roads - were ALL traffic has equal rights.
Dear moderators - may I please have an "unlike" button. (ha ha ha!)Pfft!
Stop! Yuh breakin' my hearht heah..... I'm cwying.....Dear moderators - may I please have an "unlike" button. (ha ha ha!)
There were many times when I didn't hear any bikers until they were almost on top of me. I never wore earbuds, etc. With bike tires on some of the soft surfaces the tires are nearly silent, some of the small stone paths make a good deal of noise when the tires roll over them. So its actually pretty easy for bikes to 'sneak up' on walkers if the trail conditions allow it.IMO it boils down to this:
Bicigrinos - Please slow down and announce your approach via a bell or similar.
Peregrinos - Please take out your ear (iPod or similar) plugs to hear others approaching you.
Which is why it is so important for bikers to make some sort of announcement. Honestly I don't think they understand how silent they are on some parts of the trail. I believe they think we hear them.I would also add that the cyclists should give a warning well in advance. I have been startled a few times by a bicycle quite close, and that is when I tend to react poorly and maybe jump to the wrong side. An earlier warning would allow me to look back, step out of the way, and happily watch the cyclist go by.
@Saint Mike III am not aware of any exclusive pilgrim paths, would you care to explain how/when/why. I do agree with these comments: It's the rider's responsibility to slow down, and if needed to come to a full stop to overcome the walker....Simple as that....; however this does not allow for those who deliberately stand or walk in front of either a bike/car/train.
To conclude this subject: ALL pilgrims (using any form of transport) must show equal RESPECT to their fellow travellers.
There are quite a few places along the path where cycles are directed to an alternate path. I first noticed a cycling diversion just west of Pamplona and I was not looking for them either, just noticed that particular diversion.@Saint Mike II
It seems to me that there is a sign near the bottom of the path up to O'Cebreiro directing cyclists to another route. But this was still not an "exclusive pilgrim path" as walkers had to look out for horses on the way up. I saw neither cyclists or horses en route. I didn't notice any other places where cyclists were directed off the walkers' path, but then, I wasn't looking for them.
Yes I knew about this one - but it is only a recommendation - although those people I have talked to say you would have to be a very keen cyclist/walker to attempt it. Thanks@Saint Mike II
It seems to me that there is a sign near the bottom of the path up to O'Cebreiro directing cyclists to another route. But this was still not an "exclusive pilgrim path" as walkers had to look out for horses on the way up. I saw neither cyclists or horses en route. I didn't notice any other places where cyclists were directed off the walkers' path, but then, I wasn't looking for them.
Yes I knew about this one - but it is only a recommendation - although those people I have talked to say you would have to be a very keen cyclist/walker to attempt it. Thanks@Saint Mike II
It seems to me that there is a sign near the bottom of the path up to O'Cebreiro directing cyclists to another route. But this was still not an "exclusive pilgrim path" as walkers had to look out for horses on the way up. I saw neither cyclists or horses en route. I didn't notice any other places where cyclists were directed off the walkers' path, but then, I wasn't looking for them.
Are you referring to the climb up to the Alto del Perdon? I took this track and did not see any such signs, in fact I saw and was passed by around 5 or 6 cyclists on this part of the track. Thanks for the input. CheersThere are quite a few places along the path where cycles are directed to an alternate path. I first noticed a cycling diversion just west of Pamplona and I was not looking for them either, just noticed that particular diversion.
I did see some bad hiker behavior. Four a breast and giving no quarter, sharp treking poles pointing like spears, people moving into the center of the road from the side without thinking, people moving right then left then right as if to trap someone. Still, they "own" the trail as much as I did.
Actually on tyhe way down from the top there was a diversion for cycles.Are you referring to the climb up to the Alto del Perdon? I took this track and did not see any such signs, in fact I saw and was passed by around 5 or 6 cyclists on this part of the track. Thanks for the input. Cheers
Actually on tyhe way down from the top there was a diversion for cycles. That implies that the path is for bikes up to the diversion and then again when the diversion rejoins the walking path farther down the hill.
I biked by myself, not a flock of bicyclists. As such I didn't see any bad bike behavior. I did see some bad hiker behavior. Four a breast and giving no quarter, sharp treking poles pointing like spears, people moving into the center of the road from the side without thinking, people moving right then left then right as if to trap someone. Still, they "own" the trail as much as I did.
The ones who jump to the left are the English and the Aussies...
Bells are all good and well but I generally found that they made people jump out of their skin in a completely unpredictable manner. Some jumping to the left, some to the right and one particular couple both into the centre of the path, into each other. I had given plenty of warning so saw it all happen from afar.
...
... And the couple in the middle of the path was probably on their honeymoon.
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