The eleven lines in the scallop shell

[MarieLauFlorin]

Hi

I got a question today that I can`t answer. Why are there eleven lines in the traditionel scallop shell symbol? I don`t think it has anything to do with the myth of Saint Jacob. Do you know an explanation to this? Do they somehow symbolise something since there are usually nine long and two short Lines?

Marie

 

[Tincatinker]

Take a look at a scallop shell?

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola @Tincatinker & @MarieLauFlorin I thought it was to do with the number of Caminos, but the explanation that it is a stylised scallop shell also makes sense!!

 

[KinkyOne]

Hi

I got a question today that I can`t answer. Why are there eleven lines in the traditionel scallop shell symbol? I don`t think it has anything to do with the myth of Saint Jacob. Do you know an explanation to this? Do they somehow symbolise something since there are usually nine long and two short Lines?

Marie

Hi, Mariel,

Are there really (only) 11 lines???
This link gives me approx. 17 lines (https://www.google.si/search?q=scallop+shell&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SDC_LBXufKGfUM%3A%2CKxV8jhj5Upoc-M%2C_&usg=__VE6j47F7UvW1k9MigD3aPfqFv2U=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJoN6Kq_rbAhUOr6QKHXfTD-AQ9QEIKjAA#imgrc=SDC_LBXufKGfUM

Hola @Tincatinker & @MarieLauFlorin I thought it was to do with the number of Caminos, but the explanation that it is a stylised scallop shell also makes sense!!

Maybe true. Fisterra/Muxia, Ingles, Primitivo, Frances, Ivierno, Sanabres and Portugues are seven Caminos that ended in SdC.
I still think it's stylised though

 

[Kathar1na]

Why are there eleven lines in the traditionel scallop shell symbol? I don`t think it has anything to do with the myth of Saint Jacob. Do you know an explanation to this? Do they somehow symbolise something since there are usually nine long and two short Lines?

I suppose "traditional" refers to the logo that was created for the Council of Europe (a non-EU institution) when they declared the Camino de Santiago as their first "Cultural Route" some 30 years ago? I had a hard time counting 11 lines in this logo at first as I could count only 9 lines until I realised that the 2 lines for the so-called ears of a scallop shell were included in the count . Then I had a look at real-life scallop shells and it seems that the number of ribs can vary.

I was amused to notice that the other famous shell logo, of the oil company, has 8 ribs or 'fingers'.

I didn't bother to look at famous and not so famous representations of the scallop/pilgrim shell in art since the Middle Ages but I'm fairly confident that you can find any number of lines/ribs. And you can put any sort of interpretation into their number. It's similar with the shell itself. Nobody really knows how it came to be associated with Saint James in particular and with pilgrimage in general. In all likelihood, the legends and myths and interpretations came afterwards.

The designers of the Camino de Santiago logo say that it symbolizes both the shell and the roads to Santiago but there is no fixed number of roads; in fact, the number of pilgrim roads to Santiago is pretty large. Their number is not restricted to the roads labelled as "Caminos" or "Vias" in contemporary Spain that modern pilgrims embark on today!

 

[t2andreo]

From the beginning, there have been more pilgrimage routes than could ever fit on a concha. Also, among different species of scallop shells, there are a varied number of veins of lines on the shell.

My view, shared by many above, is that the number of lines on current depictions of the Camino symbol, the scallop shell, is a STYLE issue. I have seen directional signs or medallions in the sidewalk with as few as five lines. We have all seen a gazillion shells in all forums and venues.

I hold that the number of lines on any depiction of the Camino 'shell' is primarily a style thing. An exception would be if some entity or organization was specifically seeking to represent a number of Camino routes as part of commercial advertising. For example, a mochila transport service might choose to produce a shell logo showing the number of lines corresponding to the those routes it services at present.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bradtheknife]

I think the number of lines is insignificant, only a directional symbol with converging rays acting as an arrow, and resembling a scallop shell. Walking to Santiago using the scallop shell as directional markers can be confusing. I always thought that the directional orientation is intended to be with converging lines pointed towards Santiago. At a junction, I was occasionally irked when the scallop shell was oriented nondirectionally (vertically, or upside down). I mean the symbol represents the converging paths to Santiago, towards our goal, right? When I reached Santiago (after a few wrong turns), my goal was completed and I had new wisdom that my post Camino life had endless potential directions. Now when I see the scallop shell symbol and think of my occasional frustrations when the lines weren't directed towards Santiago... I wonder if it is meant to be the other way around.

 

[AlwynWellington]

@MarieLauFlorin , greetings

I can't answer you question except to support the thought of @Saint Mike II - it's a stylised version of what the graphic designer had to hand.

The scallop shell I wore in 2010 and 2016 was the regular (large size): the base is 50 mm wide, 100 mm at its widest, weighs 60 grams and has 16 spines, fins, whatever.

In 2017 a friend gave me a Scallop shell she had found on a local beach: the base is 25 mm, 45 mm at its widest, weighs 6 grams and has 9 spines. It complements a baby Paua shell from another local beach. I have one on each side at the top of my pack.

The symbolism for me is to show 1) where I have come from - Pauatahanui (Where shell fish are gathered), a village in my community and 2) where I have arrived - Santiago de Compostella.

edited to complete the measurements of my original scallop shell.

 

[MarieLauFlorin]

Take a look at a scallop shell?

@Tincatinker
I sure did - but they can have different numbers of lines? You can tell which (sub)species it is from the number of lines.

 

[AlwynWellington]

@Bradtheknife , I understand fully the confusion you encountered. I found the same inconsistency everywhere and learnt to ignore any directional meaning on the orientation of the scallop shell.

In 2016, after nearly a month in France with the red bar over white of the GR65 for company I entered Spain intending to rely on the orientation of the base of the scallop shell.

On day 2 in Spain I entered the small village of Lintozain. After two houses the path had only a hard left turn and the base of the signage pointed that direction. A few houses on I had a choice, continue ahead on gently sloping path or a hard turn right up a steepish, rutted, incline. The base of the signage was upper most. To me that meant continue ahead, so I did. Less than 100 metres on a householder was gently waving at me to go back to the steepish, rutted, incline: so I did.

 

[hel&scott]

It is confusing when shell orientation appears to be one way on official signs and then flips over (once you reach Galicia). I like the way the shell makes a natural arrow with the lines / paths all converging in Santiago.... As to number of lines I think it is the bigger the shell the more lines. On my own shell the lines are wearing off, must be all the walking.

 

[Kathar1na]

You can tell which (sub)species it is from the number of lines.

That's what I thought, too, but see description at http://www.fao.org/fishery/species/3516/en for pecten maximus: "Sculpture of 12 to 17 broad radiating ribs". FAO is the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation. So the number of ribs does vary for the Saint James' shell. And it's not 9 or 11 ...?

 

[happymarkos]

That's what I thought, too, but see description at http://www.fao.org/fishery/species/3516/en for pecten maximus: "Sculpture of 12 to 17 broad radiating ribs". FAO is the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation. So the number of ribs does vary for the Saint James' shell. And it's not 9 or 11 ...?

The scallop shell is an ancient symbol that predates Christianity by thousands of years. Used also in Roman temples.
I was intrigued when visiting Merida on the VDLP to see a large scallop shell high on a building in a fort previously built by the Roman’s but rebuilt and strengthen by the Moors with a large scollop shell to show the direction of Mecca for prayers.

 

[Kathar1na]

The word 'scallop' can be applied to about 300 species living in warm and temperate seas the world over; they all conform to the general pattern of an almost round outline with ribs radiation like a Roman comb, hence the word pecten. The Saint James' shell occurs only on the Atlantic coast, from Britain to Spain. (The Living Scallop, W.J.Rees, British Museum, Natural History).

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Why are there eleven lines in the traditional scallop shell symbol?

The twelve apostles less Judas...

 

[KinkyOne]

...The Saint James' shell occurs only on the Atlantic coast, from Britain to Spain. (The Living Scallop, W.J.Rees, British Museum, Natural History).

Sorry but that's not true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecten_jacobaeus). The St.James shell is endemic for Mediterranean and Adriatic sea not the Atlantic ocean but it can be mixed up with Pecten maximus which is more widely spread in different seas/oceans.

 

[Kathar1na]

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecten_jacobaeus).

Ah, Wikipedia and their editors . If you dig deeper into it, you will find that "two members of the scallop genus Pecten (Bivalvia: Pectinidae) occur in European waters. Pecten maximus is largely an Atlantic species whilst Pecten jacobaeus is almost completely confined to Mediterranean waters despite slight overlap of distributions in the western Mediterranean" and that Carl Linnaeus got the naming somehow wrong when he drew up his famous nomenclature in the 18th century. Despite its name, pecten_jacobeus is not the Saint James shell that is found around the Galician coast and the EN Wikipedia editor is forgiven; I couldn't even be bothered to correct the entry. I can retrieve more details should there be any interest which I doubt. It doesn't matter one bit for today's pilgrims, any scallop-like shell or even just anything shell like will do the job just fine.

 

[KinkyOne]

Ah, Wikipedia and their editors . If you dig deeper into it, you will find that "two members of the scallop genus Pecten (Bivalvia: Pectinidae) occur in European waters. Pecten maximus is largely an Atlantic species whilst Pecten jacobaeus is almost completely confined to Mediterranean waters despite slight overlap of distributions in the western Mediterranean" and that Carl Linnaeus got the naming somehow wrong when he drew up his famous nomenclature in the 18th century. Despite its name, pecten_jacobeus is not the Saint James shell that is found around the Galician coast and the EN Wikipedia editor is forgiven; I couldn't even be bothered to correct the entry. I can retrieve more details should there be any interest which I doubt. It doesn't matter one bit for today's pilgrims, any scallop-like shell or even just anything shell like will do the job just fine.

Exactly, because the Galician (Atlantic) Pecten is not jacobaeus but maximus despite that mistaken naming by C.Linnaeus. I mean it is what it is now and we can't change that
That's why I completely agree with your last statement.

Anyway it's better that these scallop shells weren't "named" by the oil company

 

[Kathar1na]

What's always fun is reading a Wikipedia article in different languages. It has actually become a habit for me. I just dived into https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coquille_Saint-Jacques and the first sentence mentions that the pecten maximus is the most sought after by gastronomy among all the species of the scallop family that are legally authorised to carry the commercial name "Saint Jacques" (Saint James). I recently had a 11 € pilgrim's menu along the Camino Frances that featured vieira as an entrée and I was really excited about it until I started eating it. It was served in a shell that looked quite Saint Jacques-ish but the filling was anything but. The 3 or 4 scallops hiding in the fillling had the size of finger-nails . What had I been thinking . I vaguely remember reading that there has been some fight by the French fishing industry against imports that are allowed to be labelled coquilles Saint-Jacques under the rules of the World Trade Organisation.

 

[David Tallan]

I believe that if you look at the Council of Europe scallop shell symbol (yellow on blue) it fits nicely in a circle with the lines and base touching twelve evenly spaced points (like on an analog clock face).

 

[Bradtheknife]

@Bradtheknife , I understand fully the confusion you encountered. I found the same inconsistency everywhere and learnt to ignore any directional meaning on the orientation of the scallop shell.

In 2016, after nearly a month in France with the red bar over white of the GR65 for company I entered Spain intending to rely on the orientation of the base of the scallop shell.

On day 2 in Spain I entered the small village of Lintozain. After two houses the path had only a hard left turn and the base of the signage pointed that direction. A few houses on I had a choice, continue ahead on gently sloping path or a hard turn right up a steepish, rutted, incline. The base of the signage was upper most. To me that meant continue ahead, so I did. Less than 100 metres on a householder was gently waving at me to go back to the steepish, rutted, incline: so I did.

When I saw this scallop shell on a weather vane, I knew it was hopeless.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

The twelve apostles less Judas...

Judas (Iscariot) was a disciple not an apostle and there were between14 and 70 of those (but only 14 named in the various gospels).

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Artistic licence? Of my 6 real shells, 4 have 12 ridges (not counting hinge spurs) and the other two 13. My ceramic tiles have 9 and 11, the resin one outside my front door has 7! The 100pts and 5centimos coins from 1993 each have 9 so an average 0f 10.8.
What can I say? I'm hot and bored and it's too early for a tinto verano

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Judas (Iscariot) was a disciple not an apostle and there were between14 and 70 of those (but only 14 named in the various gospels).

While I only know what I read on Wikipedia :

The following is a list of the Twelve Apostles, named as they are most commonly referred to:

• Peter (born Simon)
• Andrew, brother of Peter
• James, son of Zebedee
• John, brother of James, son of Zebedee
• Philip
• Bartholomew
• Thomas
• Matthew
• James, son of Alphaeus
• Judas Thaddeus, also known as Jude
• Simon the Zealot, also known as Simon the Canaanite
• Judas Iscariot
• Matthias is not an original apostle and is a replacement for Judas Iscariot after the betrayal of Jesus.
• Paul is also not one of the original apostles, but is referred to and treated like one. He played a large role in composing the Bible and listing the lives of Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

While I only know what I read on Wikipedia :

The following is a list of the Twelve Apostles, named as they are most commonly referred to:

• Peter (born Simon)
• Andrew, brother of Peter
• James, son of Zebedee
• John, brother of James, son of Zebedee
• Philip
• Bartholomew
• Thomas
• Matthew
• James, son of Alphaeus
• Judas Thaddeus, also known as Jude
• Simon the Zealot, also known as Simon the Canaanite
• Judas Iscariot
• Matthias is not an original apostle and is a replacement for Judas Iscariot after the betrayal of Jesus.
• Paul is also not one of the original apostles, but is referred to and treated like one. He played a large role in composing the Bible and listing the lives of Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles.

Tsk tsk! Never trust anything you read on Wikipedia. There's a Wikipedia page that tells you this!!

Disciples were followers of Christ, Apostles (Paul, Luke, Mark etc. were the ones who were sent out to spread the Word)

My old parish priest used to rattle them off in alphabetical order:

Andrew
Bartholomew
James (son of Alphaeus)
James (son of Zebedee)
John
Judas Iscariot
Judas (son of James)
Matthew
Nathanial
Philip
Simon Peter
Simon the Zealot
Thaddaeus
Thomas

Apparently it was a drinking game at the seminary where he studied (Dublin) - if you got them all and got them in the right (alphabetical order) everybody else had to take a drink, if you got it wrong YOU had to.

Who am I to argue with an Irish RC priest?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Never trust anything you read on Wikipedia.

Since Mary is omitted, I am with you on this one...