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Thank you for reporting it, Gibbru. I wish these could be put in the personal safety or crime areas. Otherwise they get lost in the shuffle.A post from another forum I'm following (I won't mention the pilgrim's name) about a horrible experience that happened to her today: "It was only day 7 of my Camino and will be my last. Between Torres del Rio and Viana around 1pm.. A naked man wearing nothing but a balaclava jumped out from behind bushes with dick in hand. He was less than a meter away from me. It was disgusting. I was so scared and because i had sore feet from the 25kms i had done that day and the large pack i was carrying, I couldn't move away from him as quickly as i wanted to.
A warning to those walking after 12noon by themselves that there are less people on the track and sometimes you wont see someone for hours which can be a prime opportunity for disgusting people like this or worse."
If anyone else has luck downloading this, I'd like to know how it was accomplished on an iPhone. I've tried at least 10X over a couple of months and continue to get "gibberish" as a validation code in the form of a long string of mathematical symbols and letters with umlauts. I have an entire message page full of them. They don't copy and paste - tried that. And they aren't on any keyboard that I am aware of. I'm mostly concerned that decisions would be made based on the idea that there is this safety measure in place that can't actually be accessed. This kind of behavior sounds like a mixture of things, but there seems to be an element of aggression in it - jumping at and deliberately trying to frighten a female alone - that seems a bit more predatory than a passive flasher.There is continuing concern about incidents affecting female pilgrims. We reiterate the advice given by a number of pilgrim associations and the Spanish authorities:
Before you set out, programme the emergency number 112 into your telephone.
Consider downloading this App issued by the Spanish government:
https://alertcops.ses.mir.es/mialertcops/info/info.xhtml
The app allows anyone in Spain to send an alert from a mobile device "smartphone'"straight to the police..
If you feel threatened or uncomfortable or if you are assaulted in any way TRY TO REMOVE yourself to a place of safety immediately
Call the police – the best number to use is 112 which covers all of Spain (and much of Europe) and which has operators who speak English.
And please, please, REPORT all incidents to the police. Too many of these unlawful aggressions are never reported, which means that the full extent of the problem is hidden from the authorities.
If anyone else has luck downloading this, I'd like to know how it was accomplished on an iPhone. I've tried at least 10X over a couple of months and continue to get "gibberish" as a validation code in the form of a long string of mathematical symbols and letters with umlauts. I have an entire message page full of them. They don't copy and paste - tried that. And they aren't on any keyboard that I am aware of. I'm mostly concerned that decisions would be made based on the idea that there is this safety measure in place that can't actually be accessed. This kind of behavior sounds like mixture of things, but there does seem to be an element of aggression in it - jumping at and deliberately trying to frighten a female alone - that seems a bit more predatory than a passive flasher.
@Gibbru sorry to hear of the experience and please urge the pilgrim to do as @notion900 says and report the incident to the Guardia Civil. My memory might be wrong on this, but I seem to recall there have been similar incidents in the past in the same area that have been reported on this forum.
This is exactly same as a story a few week or a month ago .... is it the same one ? .... I am not sure where the last one was .... seems the same but reported again ..... hope it is not a serial predator
There are many reports of exhibitionists exposing themselves to pilgrims. It's a shame the woman wants to break off her walk due to one nutjob. He's an idiot and hopefully the locals will be able to solve the situation.
According to Spanish Law, exhibitionism is not a crime unless there are children or "mental disabled" involved.
De los delitos de exhibicionismo y provocación sexual
Artículo 185
El que ejecutare o hiciere ejecutar a otra persona actos de exhibición obscena ante menores de edad o personas con discapacidad necesitadas de especial protección, será castigado con la pena de prisión de seis meses a un año o multa de 12 a 24 meses.
BTW Notion 900, it appears that Shawn is looking for you:0)).I think the last one on here happened to me last month, in Embalsa de Proserpina? Unlikely to be the same person as a long way away. But I think all these guys are potentially 'serial' until they get stopped.
Would be good if all the reports could be moved to Crime Watch section by the mods for future reference. There seems to be some in Personal Safety and some in Crime Watch.
Can't imagine any community being delighted that this is happening. Also, this was an attack by some who jumped from the bushes. Wasn't standing in the window of his own home or anything. Huge difference. Report it and let them take action. We aim to achieve a safe Camino for everyone, not to protect the assumed rights of flashers.
Spain has an extensive law against sexist crimes: la ley integral contra la violencia de género, 2004.
Peregrinas are harassed by exhibitionists because they are women and they can fully claim protection by the law.
When I reported 'Embalsa Man' there was no suggestion by the Guardia that it wasn't a punishable offence. They told me my report was 'for us (i.e. intelligence)' and 'for the magistrate'.
Hi there, just curious why you say we shouldnt say 'hit the flasher with their poles'. A spanish man groped me along the camino last year and my first instinct was to hit him with my poles (but i couldnt because he had gotten away). And having my poles did make me feel a bit safer. So is your perspective that it could anger the flasher and make him more dangerous? I am just curiousAnd before anyone else posts, please don't say 'women should hit the flasher with their poles', or 'best thing is to laugh at them'.
(Edited by moderator)
There is a thread about problems after Viana from 2015. Involved a woman walking alone after mid-day.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/alert-problems-after-viana.36331/
Also in 2015 a peregerina was harassed by was a similar masked man near Belorado:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/incident-between-belorado-and-tosantos.44023/
One judge will set the difference between exhibitionism and assault or attack and, of course, it won't have a thing to do with la ley integral de violencia de género.
Hi there, just curious why you say we shouldnt say 'hit the flasher with their poles'. A spanish man groped me along the camino last year and my first instinct was to hit him with my poles (but i couldnt because he had gotten away). And having my poles did make me feel a bit safer. So is your perspective that it could anger the flasher and make him more dangerous? I am just curious
Hi there, just curious why you say we shouldnt say 'hit the flasher with their poles'. A spanish man groped me along the camino last year and my first instinct was to hit him with my poles (but i couldnt because he had gotten away). And having my poles did make me feel a bit safer. So is your perspective that it could anger the flasher and make him more dangerous? I am just curious
I see your point and i hadn't really considered the difference between meting out punishment and prioritising safety. Different situations require different responses. ThanksI have seen people (nearly always men, I have to say) post when there has been a flasher 'you should hit him'. As I see it, your priority is your own safety, not meting out punishment. Escalating an incident when it wasn't violent to begin with is likely to make it worse for you, and for other women in the future. The same goes for laughing: women do it out of nerves and embarrassment, but laughing at someone isn't likely to make them gain respect for you right now, or women in future.
If you are attacked or assaulted on the other hand, of course you should respond however you need to, to defend yourself and escape. No one seems to stress enough that if you need to run away or fight back, you will need to drop your pack.
When I reported 'Embalsa Man' there was no suggestion by the Guardia that it wasn't a punishable offence. They told me my report was 'for us (i.e. intelligence)' and 'for the magistrate'.
Wayfare, do you know if there is a similar App issued by the French government?There is continuing concern about incidents affecting female pilgrims. We reiterate the advice given by a number of pilgrim associations and the Spanish authorities:
Before you set out, programme the emergency number 112 into your telephone.
Consider downloading this App issued by the Spanish government:
https://alertcops.ses.mir.es/mialertcops/info/info.xhtml
The app allows anyone in Spain to send an alert from a mobile device "smartphone'"straight to the police..
If you feel threatened or uncomfortable or if you are assaulted in any way TRY TO REMOVE yourself to a place of safety immediately
Call the police – the best number to use is 112 which covers all of Spain (and much of Europe) and which has operators who speak English.
And please, please, REPORT all incidents to the police. Too many of these unlawful aggressions are never reported, which means that the full extent of the problem is hidden from the authorities.
Wayfare, do you know if there is a similar App issued by the French government?
As I see it, your priority is your own
If you are attacked or assaulted on the other hand, of course you should respond however you need to, to defend yourself and escape. No one seems to stress enough that if you need to run away or fight back, you will need to
The same goes for laughing: women do it out of nerves and embarrassment, but laughing at someone isn't likely to make them gain respect for you right now, or women in future.
Thank youThe emergency telephone number for France and all of Europe is 112. Add it to your phone now! When you call a multi lingual operator will answer and transfer the call to the nearest local authorities to help you.
You are right about these perverts being cowards. I was stalked by a van on my final day into Finisterre. I eventually pulled out my phone held it up and started taking photos, thus taking the power away from that pervert. He put his foot down and couldn't get away fast enough. They depend on you being debilitated by fear and thus powerless. It was very empowering transferring the fear to him.Personal safety is a reason to be prepared and act as YOU see fit if you are threatened ..... YOU are there others are not and so should not tell you what is right and fit to protect yourself in a situation that presents to YOU
Yes others have suggested dropping pack and running BUT even with that I could not outrun .... as I have said before: they are cowards and I am not ! ... I prefer to have a plan and stand and deliver !....
SUCH a shame this has to even be discussed BUT it must !
Touche'.You are right about these perverts being cowards. I was stalked by a van on my final day into Finisterre. I eventually pulled out my phone held it up and started taking photos, thus taking the power away from that pervert. He put his foot down and couldn't get away fast enough. They depend on you being debilitated by fear and thus powerless. It was very empowering transferring the fear to him.
That same thing (among a few other similar problems related to predation over 2 Caminos) happened to me between Canas and Ciruena on a backroad, and I did the same thing (I've also done that here during training twice). You are exactly right - they assume you are their helpless prey and are very surprised to find that you are not.You are right about these perverts being cowards. I was stalked by a van on my final day into Finisterre. I eventually pulled out my phone held it up and started taking photos, thus taking the power away from that pervert. He put his foot down and couldn't get away fast enough. They depend on you being debilitated by fear and thus powerless. It was very empowering transferring the fear to him.
Agreed. I do think that the locals often know about these problem people in their midst, as with the one who murdered Denise, but aren't always able to address it themselves without police involvement.I just skim-read the Spanish penal code, it is extremely interesting. True that 'exhibitionism' isn't a crime per se, unless to vulnerable groups. But intimidation is. I guess the magistrate would decide where the dividing line lay.
There are other good reasons for reporting all incidents, even if they don't lead to prosecutions. One is that it provides evidence which could support the prosecution of more serious crimes. This was seen in the trial of the man who murdered Denise Pikka Thiem, where previous reports of him assaulting peregrinas were presented. Second, if the sheer number of reports starts to get alarming, the authorities are likely to take notice and this can push for social change. Third, when you make a report in a small town or village, everyone will get to know about it. I got dropped back at the albergue in a Guardia Civil car: no doubt that was the talk of the village. So 'social pressure' can be brought to bear on people who are damaging the reputation and business interests of a village by scaring peregrinas, even if they are not brought to court.
There are other good reasons for reporting all incidents, even if they don't lead to prosecutions. One is that it provides evidence which could support the prosecution of more serious crimes. This was seen in the trial of the man who murdered Denise Pikka Thiem, where previous reports of him assaulting peregrinas were presented. Second, if the sheer number of reports starts to get alarming, the authorities are likely to take notice and this can push for social change.
I just skim-read the Spanish penal code, it is extremely interesting. True that 'exhibitionism' isn't a crime per se, unless to vulnerable groups. But intimidation is. I guess the magistrate would decide where the dividing line lay.
There are other good reasons for reporting all incidents, even if they don't lead to prosecutions. One is that it provides evidence which could support the prosecution of more serious crimes. This was seen in the trial of the man who murdered Denise Pikka Thiem, where previous reports of him assaulting peregrinas were presented. Second, if the sheer number of reports starts to get alarming, the authorities are likely to take notice and this can push for social change. Third, when you make a report in a small town or village, everyone will get to know about it. I got dropped back at the albergue in a Guardia Civil car: no doubt that was the talk of the village. So 'social pressure' can be brought to bear on people who are damaging the reputation and business interests of a village by scaring peregrinas, even if they are not brought to court.
Very true @MinaKamina I get the distinct impression that our friends in the Guardia Civil go round and 'have a word' sometimes. And I don't think it is a very civil one!
Please keep walking and don't let the nut jobs win. Thanks for the info I will be walking the same area alone next week. I am an older woman...not my husband who is a member.A post from another forum I'm following (I won't mention the pilgrim's name) about a horrible experience that happened to her today: "It was only day 7 of my Camino and will be my last. Between Torres del Rio and Viana around 1pm.. A naked man wearing nothing but a balaclava jumped out from behind bushes with dick in hand. He was less than a meter away from me. It was disgusting. I was so scared and because i had sore feet from the 25kms i had done that day and the large pack i was carrying, I couldn't move away from him as quickly as i wanted to.
A warning to those walking after 12noon by themselves that there are less people on the track and sometimes you wont see someone for hours which can be a prime opportunity for disgusting people like this or worse."
HiIf anyone else has luck downloading this, I'd like to know how it was accomplished on an iPhone. ........
Please keep walking and don't let the nut jobs win. Thanks for the info I will be walking the same area alone next week. I am an older woman...not my husband who is a member.
Therein lies the problem, kerdi. They have an app for iPhones (the one that isn't allowing the verification code to transact) and an app for Android-based phones, which is through Google Play. I tried downloading from Google Play, but it tells me that apps from Google Play don't work on iOS based devices. Maybe there's some sort of workaround, but I've given up and will just count on 112 when there's cell reception. I do appreciate your trying to help, though!Hi
I do not have an iPhone but a smartphone. Download and installation via Google Play-store apeeared to me straight forward
A post from another forum I'm following (I won't mention the pilgrim's name) about a horrible experience that happened to her today: "It was only day 7 of my Camino and will be my last. Between Torres del Rio and Viana around 1pm.. A naked man wearing nothing but a balaclava jumped out from behind bushes with dick in hand. He was less than a meter away from me. It was disgusting. I was so scared and because i had sore feet from the 25kms i had done that day and the large pack i was carrying, I couldn't move away from him as quickly as i wanted to.
A warning to those walking after 12noon by themselves that there are less people on the track and sometimes you wont see someone for hours which can be a prime opportunity for disgusting people like this or worse."
Since iPhones and Android phones use different operating systems the apps are not interchangeable. You must use apps developed for iOS on an iPhoneTherein lies the problem, kerdi. They have an app for iPhones (the one that isn't allowing the verification code to transact) and an app for Android-based phones, which is through Google Play. I tried downloading from Google Play, but it tells me that apps from Google Play don't work on iOS based devices. Maybe there's some sort of workaround, but I've given up and will just count on 112 when there's cell reception. I do appreciate your trying to help, though!
I made an earlier post on this thread. That's what I'm saying. The iPhone app - for iPhones - is not working - on iPhones.Since iPhones and Android phones use different operating systems the apps are not interchangeable. You must use apps developed for iOS on an iPhone
Can't imagine any community being delighted that this is happening. Also, this was an attack by some who jumped from the bushes. Wasn't standing in the window of his own home or anything. Huge difference. Report it and let them take action. We aim to achieve a safe Camino for everyone, not to protect the assumed rights of flashers.
Spain has an extensive law against sexist crimes: la ley integral contra la violencia de género, 2004.
Peregrinas are harassed by exhibitionists because they are women and they can fully claim protection by the law.
I think it's too cold here for men to stand around with their nobs out.
No, and I live in Philadelphia Center City.I understand this type of encounter can be extremely distressing... But there is something I have long wondered about: haven't any of you, peregrinas, come across it in your home country?
. I will make note of this location though so I can take precautions when in the area and wondering if incidents like this have been reported at any other locations along the frances route. I think that having my walking poles and phone camera at the ready will make me feel better. Anyone with any advice about types of protective sprays that can be carried?
Thanks for replying. I am amazed. (I have never been to the US)No, and I live in Philadelphia Center City.
Not only nowadays we have to consider dangers of walking alone because it happened in "early times" as well. I think there are many ways to spread the word about perpetrators etc. For females an males alike. A knife on the throat is a knife on a throath......
I had a safe and wonderful Camino but there were days when I was totally alone which was wonderful ... too bad we have to consider what may happen ..
Did try to post a review on gronze.com because that albergue owner is just plain creepy but it's all in Spanish. I'm on an iPad which may not be showing me the English option?@HedaP you could review the albergue in gronze.com and mention the behaviour.
If its only in Spanish is it worth@HedaP Yes it's a Spanish website, that's why it's worth posting a review there, because the hospitalero will most likely see it.
Just a line or two of my bad Spanish would do it. Like 'Hospitalero extraño - mientras duchabame en los baños de mujeres, el entró sin previo aviso'
Oh gosh. OK I will try. Might need to ask my Spanish teacher for some help.@HedaP Yes it's a Spanish website, that's why it's worth posting a review there, because the hospitalero will most likely see it.
Just a line or two of my bad Spanish would do it. Like 'Hospitalero extraño - mientras duchabame en los baños de mujeres, el entró sin previo aviso'
A post from another forum I'm following (I won't mention the pilgrim's name) about a horrible experience that happened to her today: "It was only day 7 of my Camino and will be my last. Between Torres del Rio and Viana around 1pm.. A naked man wearing nothing but a balaclava jumped out from behind bushes with dick in hand. He was less than a meter away from me. It was disgusting. I was so scared and because i had sore feet from the 25kms i had done that day and the large pack i was carrying, I couldn't move away from him as quickly as i wanted to.
A warning to those walking after 12noon by themselves that there are less people on the track and sometimes you wont see someone for hours which can be a prime opportunity for disgusting people like this or worse."
Not to disagree with the statistics you provide or the general message that the Camino is safer than many places pilgrims normally live. But your statement "Your biggest risk on the Camino is a bad blister!" seems unreasonably dismissive. While it is rare, people have been attacked and even killed on the Camino. People have posted here about the assaults they suffered and I don't doubt their reports or that they were much more serious than a bad blister. People have also been run over by vehicles and died that way (although this is getting less frequent as the routes are changing and pedestrian underpasses or overpasses are being built to support pilgrims; yet it still happens). People have died from exposure to the elements and heat related problems. People have suffered significantly from other injuries and health concerns. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Putting the risk in perspective is a good thing. Dismissing people's real experiences (to my eyes at least) isn't so productive. Your mileage may vary, of course.How overblown was my fear of being attacked or robbed on my journey? If there was much less violent crime in Spain than in the United States, how illogical was it that I wanted to carry a carbon-tipped weapon on the Camino, when I would have never considered carrying one walking around Maine? By getting rid of the padlock and the can of mace and the carbon-tipped pen flashlight, I had relieved my pack of weight. But as importantly, I had also dropped some psychological baggage—another one of those things that “just ain’t so” as Mark Twain would say. I decided there was perhaps more cognitive dissonance going on in my life than I knew.
So the next day when I got to Logrono, I found myself at the very swanky F & G Hotel Logrono where I got a pilgrim rate single room for 50 euros. I sat at the writing desk in my room and went online with my iPad to look up international crime and murder statistics. Here is what I found:
You are safer walking the Camino in Spain than any day you spend in the United States.
Rape per 100,000 is 3.4 in Spain and 27.3 in the United States.
The murder rate is 0.9 in Spain and 5 in the United States
Violent crime rate is 10.4 in Spain and 88.8 in the United States
And if you are walking the Camino, you spend absolutely no time in an automobile, which is the number one way to get hurt or killed. Your biggest risk on the Camino is a bad blister!
As I left Logrono the next day, I was about a quarter of the way into my journey as it was about 600 km now to Santiago de Compostela. I carried less baggage and I was walking lighter, beginning to glide.
Anxiety is all about projecting the self into the future. Fear is the part of you that is hopelessly trapped in the past.
It's beautiful that you could do that. The challenge is to carry the inspiration forward and not the trauma and unreasonable fear that can come from that. I would guess few of us women who have walked alone have not at least encountered exhibitionists. Some people respond to that by wanting to arm themselves at all times while others shrug and move on. Feeling how this all affects us first, before reflexively caving in to fear and defensiveness is the significant challenge."I met an exhibitionist while walking alone in the middle of nowhere, my bicycle along with several others was damaged by vandals, I spent a sleepless night with thieves in an albergue and never mind attracting unwanted attention while testing an alternative route for cyclists. Saying this I would like to underline that I came out of all these accidents unscathed and the deeper sense of the events was rather inspirational. However, while it was happening it was traumatizing."
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