jefferyonthecamino
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My opinion make it 300 km. I think the "tourist" is staying at home than. Wish everybody well, Peter.The 28 international Camino associations that met last week in Santiago have proposed to the Cathedral Chapter to extend the minimum required distance to 300 km. According to them, this would reduce the Summer pilgrim crowds allowing for a more fulfilling experience.
Apparently the Cathedral Chapter did not receive thus proposal with much enthusiasm.
Do you have links or the text to the proposal that was submitted and the response? I would be interested to see exactly what was proposed.The 28 international Camino associations that met last week in Santiago have proposed to the Cathedral Chapter to extend the minimum required distance to 300 km. According to them, this would reduce the Summer pilgrim crowds allowing for a more fulfilling experience.
Apparently the Cathedral Chapter did not receive thus proposal with much enthusiasm.
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...ancia-ganar-compostela/0003_201506L9C8997.htmDo you have links or the text to the proposal that was submitted and the response? I would be interested to see exactly what was proposed.
I already knew that the matter had been raised at the conference, and that an approach to the cathedral authorities had been proposed. I thought from your original post that this matter had progressed and a formal proposal submitted. Can you confirm that this has taken place?
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ostela/idEdicion-2015-06-10/idNoticia-936749/I already knew that the matter had been raised at the conference, and that an approach to the cathedral authorities had been proposed. I thought from your original post that this matter had progressed and a formal proposals submitted. Can you confirm that this has taken place?
Definitely. Twenty-five percent of pilgrims receiving compostelas start at Sarria. Twelve percent start at SJPdP.increase sharply at the 100k mark?
So this is just a dialogue being conducted in the press, not the results of a formal proposal submitted following the conference?
apparently, but i am assuming the press is quoting both sides, then again, la voz de galicia may be making it all up.So this is just a dialogue being conducted in the press, not the results of a formal proposal submitted following the conference?
how about numbers of blisters?It's a wonderful idea and why not Leon with some kind of "truthiness" check!!!!
From my reading, they are reporting that it was the intent to make the proposal. Your post was the first place I have seen it suggested that the proposal was made, and at this stage you don't seem to have anything that would substantiate that claim. I will stick with the view that the best explanation of the reporting is that:apparently, but i am assuming the press is quoting both sides, then again, la voz de galicia may be making it all up.
hahahaha, peace dougfitz, i really do not understand where you want to go with your replies, but OK, for the record,From my reading, they are reporting that it was the intent to make the proposal. Your post was the first place I have seen it suggested that the proposal was made, and at this stage you don't seem to have anything that would substantiate that claim. I will stick with the view that the best explanation of the reporting is that:
- the conference discussed this, and have suggested they will make a proposal to the cathedral authorities, have not done so yet, but have released information about their intent to the press; and
- the cathedral is suggesting that using the press this way this isn't the way they would want to discuss any changes, which they clearly don't see a need for.
Definitely. Twenty-five percent of pilgrims receiving compostelas start at Sarria. Twelve percent start at SJPdP
According to them, this would reduce the Summer pilgrim crowds allowing for a more fulfilling experience.
I don't think the Cathedral thinks it is open for debate!!Well then I hope they shorten the required distance to 10k so we can walk quietly for most of the way.
And bicycles should be 500 kms!My opinion make it 300 km. I think the "tourist" is staying at home than. Wish everybody well, Peter.
Apparently the Cathedral Chapter did not receive thus proposal with much enthusiasm.
Whose desired result? Certainly not the Cathedral's. Its leadership has said unequivocally that 100km is here to stay, and it makes the decision on issuing compostelas.Which would be enough to cause the desired result (at least for now)
The desired result of those who proposed it.Whose desired result? Certainly not the Cathedral's. Its leadership has said unequivocally that 100km is here to stay, and it makes the decision on issuing compostelas.
Definitely. Twenty-five percent of pilgrims receiving compostelas start at Sarria. Twelve percent start at SJPdP.
I do not have the patience to order the very many cities/countries listed as starting places, but if someone wants to do it, I volunteer to compute the flow along the CF.
The Dean fails the logic test: ""no podemos cambiar de criterio de cualquier manera. Están establecidos los cien kilómetros desde hace ya muchos años y no hay un motivo de peso para cambiarlo." "We cannot change the criteria at at. They have been established for a long time and there is no reason to change them". WOW.
That's easy enough, have a doorstep rule that says if you leave from your doorstep it counts.OK the 100km rule is arbitrary but it is a yardstick / guide which is helpful to all. Let's think about others apart from ourselves. Yep, the Spanish folk who greet us knowingly with a friendly smile or silent handshake . Why should some of these people go east to begin their pilgrimage to Santiago. Yep, the true pilgrims who yearn to achieve what is important to them. Let us who visit & respected as we walk not be too pushy. Rules are rules for official certificates, we can choose if these pieces of paper are important to us.
Buen Camino.
Galician economy.I'm a bit baffled. What does the Cathedral want? Where are its benefits? More people getting a Compostela? So they buy more certificate tubes? Because one thing that stunned me this month is that there was noone queuing to visit the Saint's statue nor the Crypt. Every time I went in the cathedral I looked, and noone. At the same time the time to wait for the Compostela was easily up to 90 minutes. So what is the goal?
How does that affect the cathedral? The city and the province, ok, but the Church?Galician economy.
The part of me that plans to stop in sarria on my next Camino, the part of me that thinks the compostela is overrated, the part of me that doesn't understand why people are so concerned with the compostela......is all wanting to like/agree with this postOr they could just eliminate the compostela and/or certificate
As someone married to a peninsular spanish professor, I am quite convinced that the history of Spain tells us the two are never really removed, the Church is itself political and the political is the church. It isn't just about how much $$ the cathedral makes, it is how they see themselves as tied to the region.How does that affect the cathedral? The city and the province, ok, but the Church?
It's a bit more difficult than that
I'm a bit baffled. What does the Cathedral want? Where are its benefits? More people getting a Compostela? So they buy more certificate tubes? Because one thing that stunned me this month is that there was noone queuing to visit the Saint's statue nor the Crypt. Every time I went in the cathedral I looked, and noone. At the same time the time to wait for the Compostela was easily up to 90 minutes. So what is the goal?
Actually, this pilgrimage started as a means of bringing money and political support to the Castillian kings who wanted to drive out the moorsIf I may venture to guess the whole point of the camino and the concept of pilgrimage is to expose people to the church, its history, its artifacts
I've pretty much done that, however as Castilian points out it's not simple. I was trying to estimate how the flows varied at different points along the Camino at different times of year. I had to exclude various groups because it wasn't clear if/when/where they joined the Camino Frances. As a result I didn't present the figures as absolute numbers of pilgrims, but as %age distributions. These estimates are for 2013, but 2014 was very similar.I do not have the patience to order the very many cities/countries listed as starting places, but if someone wants to do it, I volunteer to compute the flow along the CF.
But that is my point exactly: many queue to get their certificate but very few participate in any sort of religious activity, like visiting the statue of Santiago and praying in the crypt. That tells me the Church is not getting what it should want out of the Camino.You're forgetting an essential point: why the Cathedral exists.
If I may venture to guess the whole point of the camino and the concept of pilgrimage is to expose people to the church, its history, its artifacts ... and at the end of the day to affirm you as Christian ... preferably one of the Catholic faith. There is zero interest in reducing the numbers of pilgrims.
That doesn't mean they don't want numbers. People who walk either (1) are religious, and hopefully have their faith strengthened/confirmed or (2) are not religious but are exposed to the faith while walking......the church doesn't expect all of them to like the faith or take to the faith or to, to use your example, care about queing at the cathedral. But some will. And the more your total population in category #2, the more you have people that become more interested in the faith, regardless of if it is 1 in 3, 1 in 10, or 1 in 100....it's still in their interest to increase numbers.But that is my point exactly: many queue to get their certificate but very few participate in any sort of religious activity, like visiting the statue of Santiago and praying in the crypt. That tells me the Church is not getting what it should want out of the Camino.
I agree with all of this, and I've said in the past I don't agree with bashing the people who only do the last 100 km. To follow that line of thought, we could move to bashing people at 200 km....or 300 km...or Pamplona.....or St Jean (realize that people who start in Le Puy have walked half their camino before they meet us "newbies" at St Jean).Hmm... This thread is a bit judgemental. I guess 100km is a good a mark as any to differentiate it from a stroll. Who are any of us to judge another's Camino? As someone said earlier, why not discount anyone who didn't walk from their front door? I met a couple of them and they were inspirational.
If it is just about commercialism and some sort of worthiness contest, why choose this walk and not another?
My feeling is that those who feel called, know it is their faith, specifically Catholic or Christian, or maybe just a general sense of spirituality that draws them to the Camino.
If it comes down to a contest about who was worthy whether via distance, hardship or transport method, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about anyone else.
Here endeth the rant. Peace, joy and Beun Camino.
How does that affect the cathedral? The city and the province, ok, but the Church?
Enforce the pietatis causa, and the demand for Compostelas will drop!
this pilgrimage started as a means of bringing money and political support to the Castillian kings who wanted to drive out the moors
Correct. I shouldn't have said kings of castille. But my main point remains.First pilgrims started to arrive in IXth century when the Kingdom of Castile didn't exist (yet)...
What evidence does anyone have for these ideas? Especially the subjective phase "more fulfilling experience".
This seems like the same sour-grapes that come from people who walked "all-the-way" rather than the last 112 km.
As for the difference between a tourist and a pilgrim, that is in the eye of the beholder.
I looked it up in the Guiness Book. No one has ridden a unicycle backward from Nepal to receive their compostela, so if any pilgrims are out to set a record, here's your chance. Dancing Monkeys not obligatory.The Cathedral seems quite uninterested in the athletic competition to get a compostela.
In the 20th century the growth of pilgrims arriving in Santiago by vehicular transport gave rise to a concern that the aspects of effort and sacrifice previously characteristic of the pilgrimage may be lost or diminished. It was also the case that there was a growth in certificates issued by other bodies which sought to imitate the traditional Compostela. Therefore the Cathedral of Santiago decided that to gain a Compostela a pilgrim had to provide evidence on a credencial that they had walked or travelled on horseback at least the last 100kms of their journey to Santiago and, if travelling by bicycle, the last 200kms. That rule still stands today.
The distance was established to eliminate the vehicular pilgrim. Whether you run the route in eight days, or walk the last 100km in two weeks does not concern them. Half the pilgrims are from Spain, so the distance was set more for domestic reasons than to cheat a foreign pagan (adding another long distance walk to his resume) out of a compostela. Ride a unicycle backward from Nepal and you get the same piece of paper. Love it or leave it!
I looked it up in the Guiness Book. No one has ridden a unicycle backward from Nepal to receive their compostela, so if any pilgrims are out to set a record, here's your chance. Dancing Monkeys not obligatory.
Clearly the more the merrier. I am surprised at the tone taken to describe the old non-religious certificate. Did people really feel it was a mearger peace of worthlrss paper? I remember people suggesting that because it was a much prettier certificate you should say walked for cultural oe sports reasons 0
I've pretty much done that, however as Castilian points out it's not simple
Yeah, that's more or less it. The Pilgrim Office publishes monthly figures of arrivals from various start points. If the start point is on the CF (eg Burgos) it's included. If it's ambiguous (eg France) it's not. I then divide this number by days in the month and do a moving average over the whole year for each day and start point to smooth the graph. Then I assume that those who arrived on 20 June were in O Pino on 19th, Arzua on 18th etc back to wherever they started, and add it all up. No account is taken of feast days, cyclists etc. so it's crude, but shows the different patterns clearly.I briefly looked at your excel document. Very good.
Wrt to how to go about estimating the flow at one point on the CF, I suppose I would simply take the list of points of origin and assign a ballpark probability that someone starting from that origin would travel the CF, and not worry too much about the fourth decimal. For instance, it is probably fair to assume that most pilgrims starting north or east of SJPP travelled the CF and not the Inglese. More (most?) starting in Bilbao would travel el Norte, and so on.
Using the known proportion of CF pilgrims to constrain estimates should prevent egregious errors.
Anyhow. Now I know how I'll spend a few rainy Sundays
If it comes down to a contest about who was worthy whether via distance, hardship or transport method, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about anyone else.
I was told there was no math.I briefly looked at your excel document. Very good.
Wrt to how to go about estimating the flow at one point on the CF, I suppose I would simply take the list of points of origin and assign a ballpark probability that someone starting from that origin would travel the CF, and not worry too much about the fourth decimal. For instance, it is probably fair to assume that most pilgrims starting north or east of SJPP travelled the CF and not the Inglese. More (most?) starting in Bilbao would travel el Norte, and so on.
Using the known proportion of CF pilgrims to constrain estimates should prevent egregious errors.
Anyhow. Now I know how I'll spend a few rainy Sundays
Thank you Peter!Hmm... This thread is a bit judgemental. I guess 100km is a good a mark as any to differentiate it from a stroll. Who are any of us to judge another's Camino? As someone said earlier, why not discount anyone who didn't walk from their front door? I met a couple of them and they were inspirational.
If it is just about commercialism and some sort of worthiness contest, why choose this walk and not another?
My feeling is that those who feel called, know it is their faith, specifically Catholic or Christian, or maybe just a general sense of spirituality that draws them to the Camino.
If it comes down to a contest about who was worthy whether via distance, hardship or transport method, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about anyone else.
Here endeth the rant. Peace, joy and Buen Camino.
200 would make the starting point not that far out of Galicia......it would keep SOME touragrinos (which Galicia wants for $$)......but it would still reduce numbers
No, you are so wright. Wish you well, Peter.I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. As I'm not starting my first camino until Sept I feel I'm perhaps not the right person to comment, but here goes.
Please bare in mind that I'm not trying to be contentious here, but my thoughts are thus, if you're doing the camino just to get a Compostela then I think you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Shall I get my coat.
I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. As I'm not starting my first camino until Sept I feel I'm perhaps not the right person to comment, but here goes.
Please bare in mind that I'm not trying to be contentious here, but my thoughts are thus, if you're doing the camino just to get a Compostela then I think you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Shall I get my coat.
I was told there was no math.
Thank goodness; I was afraid there was math in statistics.Statistics is not math. Its statistics
Reserved seating for "Pilgrims with a Credential" this has never been my experience in a dozen plus masses I have attended. I found if I went to the Mass early I could get a "good seat" but then in the last few minutes before the Mass would start getting pushed and shoved by late arrivals. Who are these people?It was good to see that the front pews in the Cathedral for the Pilgrim Mass were reserved for "Pilgrims with a Credential".
Reserved seating for "Pilgrims with a Credential" this has never been my experience in a dozen plus masses I have attended. I found if I went to the Mass early I could get a "good seat" but then in the last few minutes before the Mass would start getting pushed and shoved by late arrivals. Who are these people?
Good point! Very rude howeverThey are also Pilgrims.
Pelgrims? ??? , but very rude as Biarritzdon stated .They are also Pilgrims.
I agree, particularly in light of the difficulty of retaining traditional routes like the Camino Ingles if a longer distance were to be required.We are glad too to see that the Dean announced that 100kms will still be the distance for a Compostella.
And this seems to me key to making sense of what might otherwise be the confusion created by the incorrect reporting of the situation in the original post. The cathedral has effectively said to anyone contemplating proposing a change to the minimum distance that this is cathedral business, and the cathedral authorities don't see the need to change it.OMHO the pilgrimage is to the Cathedral of Santiago, so it is up to the Dean and Canons to make decisions and not other groups
I am sure the many good people who represented the various associations will be disappointed by this turn of events. But it also seems to me that if they had taken appropriate soundings about how the cathedral bureaucracy might respond to this, they could have developed a different approach that might have avoided this antagonism. If it had been clear that the cathedral bureaucracy would respond badly to having this raised openly in the press, that could have been avoided in favour of an approach based on quiet diplomacy and negotiation to address the issues. Perhaps that was their intent, and having the press focussed on this was not their intention. Only those who were there would know how they saw this being progressed, and clearly most of us didn't have that luxury.however much they may contribute to the wellbeing of pilgrims and the infrastructure of the Caminos.
Yup, and 10 days ago there was noone honouring the tomb of Saint-James. I remember when you had to be quick in your prayer by respect for others in line behind you to kneel down for their own prayer. It is not about St-James anymore I'm afraid. At least from the actions I see taken.This is an interesting discussion. I don't agree with the Cathedral on this issue. For centuries, until some 30 years ago, the only qualification for receiving the Compostela was arriving at the cathedral with the intention of honouring the tomb of Saint James.
There are now about 8 rows on each side reserved for pilgrims with their compostela. Which means that if you have not walked the last 100km you don't get to sit there. It's for somewhat tired pilgrims ;0)Reserved seating for "Pilgrims with a Credential" this has never been my experience in a dozen plus masses I have attended. I found if I went to the Mass early I could get a "good seat" but then in the last few minutes before the Mass would start getting pushed and shoved by late arrivals. Who are these people?
Unless you observed for twelve hours, I am not quite sure of your factual basis for saying that!10 days ago there was noone honouring the tomb of Saint-James.
Enforce the pietatis causa, and the demand for Compostelas will drop! Demand a Catholic vow before issuing it.
The Chapter of this Holy Apostolic Metropolitan Cathedral of Saint James, custodian of the seal of Saint James’ Altar, to all faithful and pilgrims who come from everywhere over the world as an act of devotion, under vow or promise to the Apostle’s Tomb, our Patron and Protector of Spain, witnesses in the sight of all who read this document, that: Mr/Mrs/Ms…………………has visited devoutly this Sacred Church in a religious sense (pietatis causa).
With 8 Compostellas I am not going to be in line for more. I will do like some of my camino-Friends from Spain: Stop just before the last 100 km and avoid the "Compostella-runners"I wish people would start appreciating their credencials more and then possibly want or need the Compostella less, that way the part they walk, no matter where it starts or ends, would be of the same (immeasurable) value. Standing in line for a piece of paper that has significance only for believers, seems a bit silly for non-believers or those of a different faith. That surely would reduce the congestion from Sarria and spread pilgrims and wealth all along the trail. We have our Compostellas on the wall, I'll admit, but it's the map and two full credencials that have pride of place and bring back memories every day.
Should I then say that because I was not there all the time in my 2 other visits in Santiago I couldn't comment on the huge number of people queuing ;0) What are the odds that every time I popped in people just vanished, and vice versa for past visits?Unless you observed for twelve hours, I am not quite sure of your factual basis for saying that!
This is an interesting discussion. I don't agree with the Cathedral on this issue. For centuries, until some 30 years ago, the only qualification for receiving the Compostela was arriving at the cathedral with the intention of honouring the tomb of Saint James. Historically there was never a qualification that there had to be a prescribed type of journey by foot or on horseback or on a bicycle. Of course it can be argued that the issue only arose since the invention of mechanised transport but that happened some considerable time before the introduction of the 100 kms rule.
I'm a traditionalist in this and I believe that every person who makes the journey to venerate the tomb of Saint James no matter how they travel should receive the Compostela - just as they always did. All the Compostela is is a certificate issued by the cathedral recording that the pilgrim walked at least 100 kms or rode at least 200 kms by bicycle for a pious cause. It bestows no privileges, there is no remission of sins, it is simply a certificate. Give it to everyone I say and stop the Sarria - Santiago pilgrim motorway.
Given the history it seems to me that the Cathedral's refusal to consider changing the rule may be for reasons other than religion or tradition. However as has been said, it is their certificate and they make the rules!
*8*!!! I am humbled. I will be amazed, delighted and satisfied if and when I receive mine. Let the Walking begin (Aug 3)With 8 Compostellas I am not going to be in line for more. I will do like some of my camino-Friends from Spain: Stop just before the last 100 km and awoid the "Compostella-runners"
I don't think any of this conversation has been about just reducing the numbers for the sake of reducing them but rather that there is a pressure on the "system" in the last 100km, especially on the CF, that is likely to become too much in terms or road safety, water consumption, trash and quality of life for those poor people that have us walking through their fields, farms, forests, villages. To me that is the real concern - "noise and sight pollution" from all these people I need to find to deal with internally.To require the very young, the very old, the infirm, the unfit, or the poor to walk 300 kilometers to get their Compostela is wrong. Its like telling them to go away, don't come back, your not welcome here. What really bothers me is that what I'm hearing is "yes, 300 kilometers so few people will walk the Camino".
Happy Trails
I don't quite agree with you. Any local authority that comes up with a little certificate (Muxia and Fisterra have, Salvador has) can have an impact on this especially since visiting the tomb, being Catholic, etc. is apparently not quite a big deal for som many walking out there.This discussion has run the course, it really matters not what our views are on the compestella. As it will be the church who determines the rule, & if we pray we can ask for Devine solutions. I am not Catholic but I don't feel I have to be. This issue will be maintained by the church, as they are the guardians working by grace of the Holy Spirit.
So let's soften our hearts & pray.
God bless you all
Keith
I don't think any of this conversation has been about just reducing the numbers for the sake of reducing them but rather that there is a pressure on the "system" in the last 100km, especially on the CF, that is likely to become too much in terms or road safety, water consumption, trash and quality of life for those poor people that have us walking through their fields, farms, forests, villages. To me that is the real concern - "noise and sight pollution" from all these people I need to find to deal with internally.
And what about spreading the wealth of the bocadillo and bunkbed market to areas outside of the last stretch (I have to say, that from Lugo to Melide I did not see any additional traffic, except at the Lugo albergue and that's 100 km).
I have to stay I quite like saying I have completed a full Camino in one walk (Primitivo). I assume those with a certificate from Muxia or Fisterra feel the same way. As do those that walk the Salvador. Would special certificates for the different routes help relieve CF pressure and spread the wealth?
The Dean will do as he pleases, regardless of what those who bring him pilgrims things and need apparently, but I'm just thinking out loud.
Yup, and 10 days ago there was noone honouring the tomb of Saint-James. I remember when you had to be quick in your prayer by respect for others in line behind you to kneel down for their own prayer. It is not about St-James anymore I'm afraid. At least from the actions I see taken.
Actually the rows are reserved for pilgrims with credencial, not with compostela. So it is not necessary to have received acompostela before attending.There are now about 8 rows on each side reserved for pilgrims with their compostela. Which means that if you have not walked the last 100km you don't get to sit there. It's for somewhat tired pilgrims ;0)
In fact there's a lot of interesting maths in statistics. For example, the famous bell curve, aka the 'normal distribution', is defined by a non-trivial function you can read about in Google. It is quite amazing that such an apparently arcane mathematical formula is so accurate in describing the probability distribution of many naturally occurring phenomena. Oh dear, off topic again.Thank goodness; I was afraid there was math in statistics.
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