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This doesn't appear to be a fine, rather the rescue service and other agency fees for mounting the rescue. There is still the service fees for the medical helicopter deployed by the health services to come, along with any fine.5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...
http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/
That is about 25,000 Brasilian Real...The 5360 € are to pay for : the use of the rescue helicopter and 12 hrs work for 11 people. The 450 € are to pay 4 people for 3 hrs work and the use of a land vehicle
You beat me to the quote. Maybe we need a sign at the start of the Napoleon Trail inviting those attempting to cross when its closed to fill out their "Darwin Award" nominations.or at least a nominee for a coveted Darwin Award!
So how insistent will the Spanish or provincial authorities been on enforcing the payments?? I ask just so that anyone else who reads this will know what they are really up for. I don't think travel insurance covers you for being a stupid fool!!Not a fine. The 5360 € are to pay for : the use of the rescue helicopter and 12 hrs work for 11 people. The 450 € are to pay 4 people for 3 hrs work and the use of a land vehicle.
Still to come: fees for medical care and use of medical helicopter for both rescues.
This will be charged by the Health Dpt.
@Saint Mike II, I don't see how seeking cost recovery for the rescue is 'coming down real heavy' - that is just business - a charge for the use of the resources consumed. What might give an indication of how the appropriate judicial authority see this will be the level of any fine, should it transpire that they have actually broken the law as well as being reckless.Congratulations also to the local authorities for coming down real heavy
Agreed, my wording was incorrect. I fully support pay per use fees as the Spanish people certainly don't deserve to pay for the mistakes of people who ignore their rules and laws.This doesn't appear to be a fine, rather the rescue service and other agency fees for mounting the rescue. There is still the service fees for the medical helicopter deployed by the health services to come, along with any fine.
That raises several interesting questions.
When I embarked on the CF in January the staff at the Pilgrim Office made it abundantly clear that Napoleon was closed and Valcarlos was the ONLY option. They backed this up by marking the route on the map they handed out to everyone with huge red X's along the Napoleon. Their final step was to literally stand at the last intersection where one could choose Napoleon vs Valcarlos in the morning as we left and gently guide everyone to the right road to head up the Valcarlos route. The French staff are really to be commended for their efforts in this. As such, if anyone purposely connived their way around all this warning and directives, I honestly don't believe another sign on the road would deter them. In the end we must all be responsible, morally and financially, for our own actions. In this instance it was a minor miracle for these people to be alive. Were it not for the skill and efforts of the SAR teams it would be well possible to read much, much worse news last week.That raises several interesting questions.
Did they actually break any laws?
If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?
Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).
I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.
Agreed. But not everyone stops in the pilgrim's office.When I embarked on the CF in January the staff at the Pilgrim Office made it abundantly clear that Napoleon was closed and Valcarlos was the ONLY option. They backed this up by marking the route on the map they handed out to everyone with huge red X's along the Napoleon. Their final step was to literally stand at the last intersection where one could choose Napoleon vs Valcarlos in the morning as we left and gently guide everyone to the right road to head up the Valcarlos route. The French staff are really to be commended for their efforts in this. As such, if anyone purposely connived their way around all this warning and directives, I honestly don't believe another sign on the road would deter them. In the end we must all be responsible, morally and financially, for our own actions. In this instance it was a minor miracle for these people to be alive. Were it not for the skill and efforts of the SAR teams it would be well possible to read much, much worse news last week.
That raises several interesting questions.
Did they actually break any laws?
If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?
Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).
I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.
But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.View attachment 24617
There are already signs at the intersection where both routes begin outside of SJPP.
It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty. A fine. More like a civil matter. I suppose if the fees weren't paid, the matter could become criminal (contempt of court, etc) same as here in the US.That raises several interesting questions.
Did they actually break any laws?
If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France? 2) Is there an obligation on the part of the level of government passing the law to provide adequate notification in the form of language-independent signage?
Regardless of whether there is an actual law, I suggest that the various confraternities all contribute to supporting a set of signs that indicate whether the Route Napoleon is open or closed. When closed, these could redirect people towards the Valcarlos route. One set of signs would be on the road out of SJPdP, and another leading out of Orrison. If well designed, it would solve the problem of those who don't stop in the SJPdP pilgrim office, as well as those who have a language barrier (I recall a number of the 2013 rescues were South Korean and had a legitimate language barrier).
I for one would be willing to contribute to such a cause directly or through APOC.
5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...
http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/
But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.
5,800 Euro fine for those caught in the storm last week on the Pyrenees but helicopter charges are still pending. Expensive lapse of judgement...
http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/
It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty. A fine. More like a civil matter. I suppose if the fees weren't paid, the matter could become criminal (contempt of court, etc) same as here in the US.
In the US to disregard a warning or detour sign like that could indeed be a criminal offense. A low end misdemeanor. On the level of a traffic ticket, but a criminal offense nonetheless. You see it all the time in the US in events where there is major flooding, yet people still attempt to cross flooded roadways in their cars and get swept away. Often times those roadways have been closed already and signs and barricades put up, yet sometimes people disregard them, drive around them and get swept away or trapped and a rescue is initiated. The fine for disregarding the barricade would be around $500.00 US maximum, but the reimbursement for the helicopter that plucked them off the roof of the car could be several thousand dollars. Those babies don't fly cheap.
I experienced it as an LEO in the US. We had very bad flooding once, and three major highways had swift water running over them from the rivers and creeks. So many people were disregarding the signs and barricades that we had to set up personnel at those points 24/7 until the waters receded and the roadways could be reopened. Unfortunately that would be the best option in SJPdP on dangerous weather days in the nearby Pyrenees. You can only truly control the situation by posting someone to redirect at the crossroads of the Napoleon and ValCarlos from about 5:00 am to about 1:00 pm.
Language barriers, naivety and irresponsibility are always a factor when dealing with large numbers of people in that situation.
You cannot sue anyone for bad weather. ???? And privat bad advices.I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day when the path is actually opened but there is bad weather...
A pilgrim hasn't listened to the local advice before setting off, either because he can't be bothered or because he doesn't speak French/Spanish/English....
He dies....
The family sues and wants compensation 'There was NO sign" "he or she didn't understand the language".
What next? "I fell into a ravine because there was NO sign actually warning me there was a ravine?
When I raised the matter of whether or not they had broken the law, I wasn't contemplating that failing to comply with the regulation closing the pass would necessarily be a criminal matter. Certainly here is Australia there are a range of offences against regulations, etc that are not crimes.It doesn't appear to me that the fees for reimbursement are a criminal penalty.
I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day when the path is actually opened but there is bad weather...
A pilgrim hasn't listened to the local advice before setting off, either because he can't be bothered or because he doesn't speak French/Spanish/English....
He dies....
The family sues and wants compensation 'There was NO sign" "he or she didn't understand the language".
What next? "I fell into a ravine because there was NO sign actually warning me there was a ravine?
Sorry for the rant but I believe it's Health and Safety gone mad. (iMO)
It is not the United States. A lawsuit is quite unlikely; a successful lawsuit nearly impossible.I am just concerned now that the locals will be sued one day
i might add - it not only "costs" them - it places well being and life at risk of others ! it's not always just about the cash involved ... [end of my 30 seconds on the soapbox]They did it "their" way and it cost them. [Please note lack of sarcasm]
Darwin Awards are awarded posthumously, so hopefully the evacuees learned something, but also hoped they survived....or at least a nominee for a coveted Darwin Award!
As you can see on the left side of this message, I'm European. Your question made me giggle.Did they actually break any laws?
If so, then 1) Are the laws consistent between Spain and France?
Very good!
Apart from the avalanche bit, in 6, very like the guidelines for sailing.
Thank you for clarifying this.There are no legal restrictions on the track in France. The legal restrictions start at this point: 43°3'2,02"N and 1°16'6,04"W and they are fixed under Spanish law. If you walk there as a pilgrim on the camino during November-March, you can even be fined, up to 12000 EUR (on the basis of articles 60 and 61 of Ley Foral 8/2005 of 1 July). That's in addition to the risk of being billed for the cost of a rescue operation. Oh, and it's infracciones leves which Google Translate renders as minor offenses.
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.
Understanding that experience does not have to be our own in order to be didactic. We CAN learn from others' bad decisions!
Edit: They were from Brazil, and obviously weren't prepared for snow in the Pyrenees. Had probably never seen snow. So we should not come down hard on them as such. But of course, they were putting other people (rescuers) at risk, and in my opinion, they should pay.
But I may be harsh and judgemental due to my knowledge of winter and bad weather; knowledge which people from other parts of the world do not possess.
Yes! It is something about our humanity, our generosity of spirit, and even perhaps our own sense of survival that we do these things, and even put ourselves at risk in the process. As for your assessment of their productive capacity, I am appalled you and others seem to have made such a damning assessment based on one incident. Many years ago, my nation spent perhaps millions of dollars finding and rescuing Tony Bullimore and Thierry Dubois from the Southern Ocean, two solo round the world sailors, putting at risk the many airmen and sailors involved in that operation. If you and others don't think that a single human life is worth saving, I cannot feel anything but that you have all lost some perspective on this matter.But really, do we need to send all these people, and choppers, out to save such poor gene producers?
Very well said, Doug, thank you.Yes! It is something about our humanity, our generosity of spirit, and even perhaps our own sense of survival that we do these things, and even put ourselves at risk in the process. As for your assessment of their productive capacity, I am appalled you and others seem to have made such a damning assessment based on one incident. Many years ago, my nation spent perhaps millions of dollars finding and rescuing Tony Bullimore and Thierry Dubois from the Southern Ocean, two solo round the world sailors, putting at risk the many airmen and sailors involved in that operation. If you and others don't think that a single human life is worth saving, I cannot feel anything but that you have all lost some perspective on this matter.
But, if I don't speak/read English, French, or Spanish, that sign is useless to me.
And if one is not walking down that specific street, they'll miss it. I'm simply suggesting signage that is on the road that can't be missed as one leaves SJPdP and starts up towards Orisson, and that does not depend on familiarity with a limited set of languages.
EDIT: I looked up the map, and that location is pretty much a choke-point along the route. There's no easy way to miss that intersection.
I think the 7 Ps would applyGood decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.
Today if you ignore the rules or signs and have to be rescued, you will get a bill for your rescue and now days may face legal action by the authorities. Good luck with a law suit.It is not the United States. A lawsuit is quite unlikely; a successful lawsuit nearly impossible.
In the Navy you substituted The Chief for captainAvalanche precautions are for mountains.
As for sailing, my teacher at my skipper school had a very good rule:
"If you are in doubt, act as if there is no doubt." It has avoided many accidents. Also:
And
"You are never wrong in slowing down."
Major rules at sea:
Rule 1: The captain is always right.
Rule 2: I the captain isn't right after all, then rule 1 automatically applies immediately.
As a former public servant all I can say is that you just go out and do it. You don't think about why the person did what they did. The only thing you think about is the task at hand. Sure, the people are in that situation many times due to just plain stupidity, but that's not a factor in aiding them.Unless it is made mandatory for albergue to breif pilgrims, or for the pilgrim office to relocate to the junccion point, Darwin misses will go up the dangerous way. But really, do we need to send all these people, and choppers, out to save such poor gene producers?
and add in coffee cup and cigarette....In the Navy you substituted The Chief for captain
I understand your point @koilife but with some 6500 languages in the world, where and how can this be done? Do we analyse the demographics of who received a Compostella? What nationalities fly in and out of Spain? How could this really work? I agree with many of the posters here that these people likely just did not have the life experience to be out in the snow but shouldn't it still be the responsibility of a visitor to adequately prepare themselves? When I travel I do a lot of research about what the local conditions are, what vaccinations I may need, medicines, local customs, foreign language phrases travelers should know, etc. Brazilians may not have ever seen snow but surely the most basic search of walking the CF in March on the internet will find heaps of information about the danger of walking over the Napoleon route. I've lived too often in the glass house myself to throw stones but I feel more and more signs is a crutch that will get out of control.Precisely the point of why I think a language-independent (translation: graphical/symbolic) sign is valuable. In 2013, one day after I went over, it snowed heavily and a number of Korean's ended up needing rescue. From what I understand, none of them spoke a language other than Korean. And trying to dig out a dictionary to decipher every sign along the way is a lot harder than following the yellow arrows. And, I'll bet many or most had never seen snow before.
There are some who clearly do not exercise common sense. There are others who genuinely start with a deficit of experience and communication. It is to these later that I suggest a different approach to signage would be of aid.
New Navy. No smoking on ships anymore. Can't cuss or drink either.and add in coffee cup and cigarette....
Perhaps you'll disagree, but with simple symbols, almost all women find their way into women's restrooms and men into men's restrooms, and we don't need 6,500 words on each door.
With signage that doesn't require familiarity with the language or language dictionaries, even a very modest reduction of 10% in the number of rescues seems worth it, since the cost of the signage is almost certainly less than the cost of even one average rescue. I highly doubt the rescue teams are looking at rescues as a profit-driven business, which means the reduction would probably be very welcome, not to mention that it reduces the chance for serious injury or even death for them.
For the record, I'm not defending the Brazilians at the start of this thread, nor are they the ones that I am thinking of when I posted my suggestion about the signs. To go as a diabetic without sufficient nourishment, in my mind, speaks volumes about the carelessness of what they did. Moreover, they should have been able to read the signage that was up.
That being said, I think that it is a relatively simple thing to increase the effectiveness of the signage for those that would benefit from it. That was the point of my post; whether or not people agree with it is another matter. On the other hand, it would be easier and cheaper to simply nominate the lot for a Darwin Award and let God sort them out.
If these people are able to find there way to the little village of SJPP, surely they are savvy enough, if not to know what this sign says, at least to wonder what it says and go "uhhmmm...". Or do we have to start seeing signs or the highway in 280 languages and dialects? I don't see that on immigration forms, airports, etc.Right under the word. "fermé" it says "closed"
In aviation: there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.my teacher at my skipper school had a very good rule:
Dates?! Another can of worms: what is 01/11/2016 to you? November first or the 11th of January?
As one of those involved in rescues in the Blue Mountains - agreed!Very pleased to see that the user pays system is alive and well in Spain. We could do with a bit more of it here in Australia. The Search & Rescue teams are always out rescuing fools who should not be out there. They put too many other lives at risk.
You'd think if anyone did an iota of research and stumbled upon this site they would have seen all the info about the closed route Napolean. But, you never know I guess. I'll be in SJPDP in a week and look forward to checking out any such signs.Since many pilgrims arrive in SJPdP by train from Bayonne multilingual closure notices/signs should be prominantly displayed in the Bayonne and SJPdP rr stations. Furthermore such signs should be at the camino gates, ie the Port St. Jacques and the Port d'Espagne.
When I used the word should in the post above I meant ought to in the future, not that I knew such signs to be in place this winter. However I am curious as to what was in place and where at the time of the acident.You'd think if anyone did an iota of research and stumbled upon this site they would have seen all the info about the closed route Napolean. But, you never know I guess. I'll be in SJPDP in a week and look forward to checking out any such signs.
Dates?! Another can of worms: what is 01/11/2016 to you? November first or the 11th of January?
Well, as someone who lives in Montreal, a Canadian city where people,switch back and forth between English amd French, I can tell you from experience that writing dates like that does create a lot of confusion.no can of worms: in europe and almost all other countries on this planet:
Day first , Month , Year
"While this European date format is unusual for visitors, it is actually the US date format which is different with the majority of the countries in the world using European date format over the American counterpart. The only countries that do not share the European date format in fact are the US, Philippines, Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia, Canada and Belize."
No apology necessary, domigee. Well, me too--in terms of travel I totally agree with you and Joe about sensible ways to prepare for travel to a place where language is a challenge. And...sometimes signage needs to cater to the 'lowest common denominator'I agree with the above, sorry Viranani
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