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Alto de Perdon might be a ridge, but its local prominence (nearly 300m) and absolute height (790m, >600m or 610m in the UK) both qualify it as a mountain. Over 3/4 of English mountains are lower.tyrrek said:It's just a ridge - not really a mountain
*Sigh*. OK it's a mountain then. It doesn't feel like a mountain though. It feels like a ridge to me.dougfitz said:Alto de Perdon might be a ridge, but its local prominence (nearly 300m) and absolute height (790m, >600m or 610m in the UK) both qualify it as a mountain. Over 3/4 of English mountains are lower.tyrrek said:It's just a ridge - not really a mountain
Clearly, its a mountain.
Regards,
dougfitz said:Alto de Perdon might be a ridge, but its local prominence (nearly 300m) and absolute height (790m, >600m or 610m in the UK) both qualify it as a mountain. Over 3/4 of English mountains are lower.tyrrek said:It's just a ridge - not really a mountain
Clearly, its a mountain.
Regards,
Robindra said:Can one walk north towards Cizur Maior instead of SE, and walk to Urtega bypassing the Alto?
But when I took a good look at the trail going steeply down at the other side – horror! – steep descents are certainly not for me! – So instead I took the road to the right – peaceful, no traffic at all – and manouevred to Uterga, where I again was on the camino. It may have added an estimated 4 km, but then I had also previously read about the sprains others have contracted going down.
Margaret and Annelise, thanks for these alternatives! We'll be starting our first camino in Pamplona and with our weak knees we're nervously thinking of the Alto de Perdón as our own mini-Pyrenees that we'll have to cross on our first or second day. :-]
Annelise, can you clarify the "road to the right" by which you found your way to Uterga? Looking on Google Maps I'm seeing NA-6056 which leads to NA-1110. Was that it?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7348212,-1.7468998,1116m/data=!3m1!1e3
*Sigh*. OK it's a mountain then. It doesn't feel like a mountain though. It feels like a ridge to me.Buen Camino!
Alto de Perdon might be a ridge, but its local prominence (nearly 300m) and absolute height (790m, >600m or 610m in the UK) both qualify it as a mountain. Over 3/4 of English mountains are lower. Clearly, its a mountain.
The opinions concerning the statues on Alto de Perdon aresharply divided - I love them! A first time pilgrim should make the attempt to climb and see them to form your own opinion, there is a small access road shown on better maps if one should decide to leave the Camino and go around, it is also used by the guy who is usually there and who will sell you a sandwich or a cold cup of coffee from his thermos.
S.
Its a ridge, trust me
Pano (Switzerland)
You're perfectly correct, @PANO, but you seem to have missed the semantic point. I suspect @tyrrek might originally have been making the point that the Alto de Perdon does not require technical mountain climbing skills. It is not rugged, craggy bare rock. So for those of you blessed with that type of mountain - the rugged, craggy bare rock versions - it might not feel like a mountain. But local prominences are named mountains not because of some subjective view of how rugged, or craggy, or bare they might be, they are named mountains on the objective measure of their height above sea level and local prominence. My point is that the Alto de Perdon qualifies to be called a mountain on that basis. It might also qualify in terms of steepness as well. The climb up to the top of the ridgeline appears to be about 6.5% on average (depending, of course, on where one measures it from), and the slope on the descent is nearly 10%. It clearly is no gentle hill!Its a ridge, trust me
Pano (Switzerland)
Even if you stop every ten meters to rest, it will be faster to walk over the Alto than to go around!we're nervously thinking of the Alto de Perdón
The first time I was there I had one of my more meaning full Camino moments and came to new terms with myself and big G.though the Alto del Perdon had 'no perdon"
Ahhh Doug, you’re absolutely right of course, as always >>>You're perfectly correct, @PANO, but you seem to have missed the semantic point. I suspect @tyrrek might originally have been making the point that the Alto de Perdon does not require technical mountain climbing skills. It is not rugged, craggy bare rock. So for those of you blessed with that type of mountain - the rugged, craggy bare rock versions - it might not feel like a mountain. But local prominences are named mountains not because of some subjective view of how rugged, or craggy, or bare they might be, they are named mountains on the objective measure of their height above sea level and local prominence. My point is that the Alto de Perdon qualifies to be called a mountain on that basis. It might also qualify in terms of steepness as well. The climb up to the top of the ridgeline appears to be about 6.5% on average (depending, of course, on where one measures it from), and the slope on the descent is nearly 10%. It clearly is no gentle hill!
Take your poles, and be sure you are well acquainted with their proper use; they'll be an enormous help. If you are still worried, perhaps consider having your packs transported ahead that day. Buen Camino......... we're nervously thinking of the Alto de Perdón
But for some of us Western Australians, every big hill seems like a mountain.....We have very little high places here in Perth where I live.....just saying..Lol, for most continental Europeans, like me, that barely qualifies it as a low hill ;-) SY
Well, not really. I was thinking that it only takes a couple of hours to get up and down it, and that it has wind turbines and a burger van at the top. And it's ridge shaped.
Talk about elevation challenged.....Pity the elevation-challenged state of Florida:
Sugarloaf Mountain is the highest point in peninsular Florida at 312 feet (95 meters) above sea level. It is in Lake County, near the town of Clermont. This compares to 345 feet (105 meters) above sea level for the highest point in the entire state, Britton Hill, located in the Florida Panhandle.
The Washington Monument is 555' high...
Agreed - it's a bit not to be missed. If nothing else, it will teach you about microclimates: how can it be so cold going up, super windy on the 10m wide ridge, and so hot and arrid just across the road? Our planet is fragile, and no part of it exists in a vaccum, let these 50 meters of Spanish territory demonstrate that.I would not let trepidations about this portion of the Camino make anyone seek an alternative -- the silhouettes of the perigrinos have become such an icon of the Camino ...
We have similar inconsistencies here in Australia. On the east coast, 700 m is generally accepted as the height at which a local prominence can be named a mountain. In my home state of Western Australia, hills of much lower overall height attract the name.Pity the elevation-challenged state of Florida:
Sugarloaf Mountain is the highest point in peninsular Florida at 312 feet (95 meters) above sea level. It is in Lake County, near the town of Clermont. This compares to 345 feet (105 meters) above sea level for the highest point in the entire state, Britton Hill, located in the Florida Panhandle.
The Washington Monument is 555' high...
I get the wind turbines and the statues and the ridge shape, but there was no burger van at the top when I walked. I am now so disappointed!Well, not really. I was thinking that it only takes a couple of hours to get up and down it, and that it has wind turbines and a burger van at the top. And it's ridge shaped.
What! I don't doubt you for a moment tyrrek but have never seen one. Then again I walk up from Zariquieguiri at daybreak in early May. What a shame! It would spoil the moment for me. But that's just my opinion.Well, not really. I was thinking that it only takes a couple of hours to get up and down it, and that it has wind turbines and a burger van at the top. And it's ridge shaped.
That's the problem @Al the optimist, I can't remember. It was very late and the owner of the casa rural came and collected us from Cizur Menor. I was so tired I did not take much notice and the next day the owner just pointed us in the right direction and we followed a path all the way up the hill.
In MMDD there is a Casa Rural to the North of the way Kanga at Astrain , Casa Rural Carpintero , owned by Fernando
Paths ?? shown to the Alto on map
Kanga, do you think this is the route?
View attachment 15844
Kanga, do you think this is the route?
View attachment 15844
I think you may have found it. Has anyone else walked this, and seen the lovely statue?
Felt like Everest to me. My avatar was taken half way up with about six inches of snow behind me and six inches of mud in front of me. By the time I got to top I was no longer smiling and at the bottom reached Uterga and felt like lying down and dying seemed like a good option. It was my first day walking having started in Pamplona. Would I change it and avoid Perdon if I could turn back time? No way, it was tough but this old 64 at the time fit for nothing pilgrim made it and on other tough days thoughts of mud slide mountain made them seem somehow easier*Sigh*. OK it's a mountain then. It doesn't feel like a mountain though. It feels like a ridge to me.Buen Camino!
My advice to new pilgrims regarding the ascent and decent of the Alto de Perdon, or any other section of the Camino de Santiago is this:
start where you start, follow the yellow arrows, don't over-think, be adventuresome and accept what happens.
The Camino is your pilgrimage ....it is there to provide you opportunity to live outside your comfort zone.
Looks like you are right Prentiss, thank you. Below is what it looks like on Flashearth.comKanga, I thinks this confirms the location of your statue. It's a screenshot from an Open Street Map app, and the star marks an "imagen de Nuestra Señora del Perdón."
View attachment 16153
(This particular app is PocketEarth for iPhone but I think the statue is there in any Open Street Map viewer.)
If pilgrims wish to avoid the dangerous slippery climb up and down the Alto de Perdon due to deep mud they might consider this 'walk around' which I have often followed along back roads and eventually the end of the Camino Aragonese . From Cizur Menor walk SE on NA6000 roughly 14k to Campanas, then on NA121 SE to Muruarte de Reta on NA601 to join the Camino Aragonese. Continue W 10k to the splendid circular Romanesque church at Eunate and 4k further to Puente la Reina on the Camino Frances.
Buen Camino,
Margaret Meredith
Right on, John! I think a lot of prospective pilgrims get scared when they read the accounts of a few who have had problems with one hill or another on the Camino. In fact, tens of thousands of others have crossed these places with little (or at least acceptable) levels of trepidation and discomfort. Granted, there are those who have physical issues that make steep ascents or descents an issue, but anyone with reasonable levels of fitness and conditioning -- including septuagenarian geezers like me -- can walk the Camino by, as you say, simply following the yellow arrows wherever they lead you. Sure, sometimes it's hard and it takes a lot of huffing and puffing, but just take it slowly and carefully, and soon you will be past it and feel a real sense of accomplishment. Poles are your friends in these places, especially on the downhill side.My advice to new pilgrims regarding the ascent and decent of the Alto de Perdon, or any other section of the Camino de Santiago is this:
start where you start, follow the yellow arrows, don't over-think, be adventuresome and accept what happens.
The Camino is your pilgrimage ....it is there to provide you opportunity to live outside your comfort zone.
As an example, it has become standard in the Forum to stop at Orisson! The other 28,000, or so, make it all the way to Roncesvalles.I think a lot of prospective pilgrims get scared when they read the accounts of a few who have had problems with one hill or another
Hi Margaret - I had seen the earlier thread and may have suggested a similar route there. As I recall, yours went through Campanas and used all paved roads, so I tried to find something shorter (more easily doable in a day) and perhaps less busy. I noticed Meson del Camino in Eneriz (I think from a sign in street view), but when I tried clicking on a link in your thread it was dead. ....
The link in my post above works!
No menu as such. However the site does mention casera o regional.I see very little info - is there a hidden menu?
Thank you. I will take those directions with me. If it is wet I may do that.If pilgrims wish to avoid the dangerous slippery climb up and down the Alto de Perdon due to deep mud they might consider this 'walk around' which I have often followed along back roads and eventually the end of the Camino Aragonese . From Cizur Menor walk SE on NA6000 roughly 14k to Campanas, then on NA121 SE to Muruarte de Reta on NA601 to join the Camino Aragonese. Continue W 10k to the splendid circular Romanesque church at Eunate and 4k further to Puente la Reina on the Camino Frances.
Buen Camino,
Margaret Meredith
Here in the colonies we would call that a foot hillAlto de Perdon might be a ridge, but its local prominence (nearly 300m) and absolute height (790m, >600m or 610m in the UK) both qualify it as a mountain. Over 3/4 of English mountains are lower.
Clearly, its a mountain.
Regards,
Really! I don't know about that. After all, the US has mountains of the dizzying heights of Sugarloaf Mountain in Florida or Storm King Mountain in New York, both of which are towered over by the Alto de Perdon! Mind you, it is one thing where Australia has real bragging rights. Mount Wycheproof in Victoria is the world's acknowledged smallest mountain.Here in the colonies we would call that a foot hill
I have to get this in before you can correct your typo!! But at 421m your Mt Whitney will still be in the shadow of the Alto de Perdon. Surely you have something you might really call a mountain to use for comparison. Perhaps a fully grown Mt Whitney?Actually Dougfitz I have not walked the French route yet, soon though. I live on what we refer to as the eastern slopes of the Sierras with mount Whitney at 421 meters being the tallest point. I live and train at 1371 meter ergo foot hills. Buen Camino
OpsI have to get this in before you can correct your typo!! But at 421m your Mt Whitney will still be in the shadow of the Alto de Perdon. Surely you have something you might really call a mountain to use for comparison. Perhaps a fully grown Mt Whitney?
Here in the colonies we would call that a foot hill
Mea culpa. Nevertheless Dom Elias Valina of yellow arrows fame in his early Pilgrim Guide referred to climbing the Alto and did not mention the Sierra. ...Thus if I have erred in using the term Alto it is from following his most distinguished footprints.
Yes, you willDoes anyone know the current condition of the Alto de Perdon. I will be there next week and wonder if I will encounter a lot of slippery mud.
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