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Tsk,tsk,tsk, Berlin to Saint Jean de Luz is roughly 2000 km, how long would you need to walk the distance, and that's only one way, not counting the way back, plus there's still the matter of going all the way from Saint Jean de Luz to Compostela and back.Three and a half months on the camino, and asking for money? I'd be inclined to suggest to him that it was time to go home.
Sorry if i've misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that walking the Camino Frances is a "super cheap holiday". It might be for you, but it certainly wasn't for me. I saved what i could from my low paid job for years, to be able to afford unpaid leave to go.Does it really matter if they are scammers or not?
What will cause you to lose more sleep? Not giving a few €, if that, to someone who really needs them (and then some while you are on a super cheep holiday) or being scammed out of them?
Because I don't think you will sleep outdoors, or stick to bread for dinner vs a pilgrim menu and bottle of red, because you've given a few €, if that.
If you give money to beggars, it just fosters begging as a viable economic option. Here in London, I get approached by beggars several times a day - sometimes two or three on the train and a couple in the street, on my way to and from work. I never ever give money. I work with former homeless people and they support my stance on this. Indeed if I meet a particularly noteworthy scammer (like the guy who cuts his own arm every single day and pretends he needs taxi money to go to hospital), my colleagues will usually know them. Here in London we have a situation where all beggars are 'professionals', simply because the competition is such that if you don't have a good story, you won't get money. I participated in a thread on this topic before and got given a hard time initially, but I won't accept criticism from people who don't live in places where they get begged from every single day. Beggars and scam artists no doubt see pilgrims as a soft touch, and they are right. Living in a little bubble of small good deeds and niceness, makes it hard for the peregrino to say no to their demands, and they know it. Beggars are also often controlled by pimps who take nearly all their money - do you think the 'deaf and dumb' girls are free to stop begging and get a job? They are probably trafficked and controlled and the money goes to criminal gangs. So sorry to break your illusions of doing good deeds, or it not really mattering.Does it really matter if they are scammers or not?
I dont believe in mooching. I worked very hard for my sheckles and those who want money should work hard too. If they cant, there are many welfare programs that have been funded by money extracted at the point of a gun from me and other hard working people so the answer is NO. and if they tell a long story to make you think they are your friend i am offended by that tactic. it is very low.I was chatting with a pilgrim who was sitting next to the entrance of St. Jean de Luz's church the other day, and asked him how long he had been walking. He said three and a half months. I was quite impressed until he asked me for some money.
Has this kind of begging become fashionable or is it a one off?
If you give money to beggars, it just fosters begging as a viable economic option.
Tsk,tsk,tsk, Berlin to Saint Jean de Luz is roughly 2000 km, how long would you need to walk the distance, and that's only one way, not counting the way back, plus there's still the matter of going all the way from Saint Jean de Luz to Compostela and back.
Of course I was half joking: the joke is in the assumption that "a camino" is a month long enterprise at the most. We know next to nothing about the person! And, as a general comment, the OP asked whether such incidences - begging pilgrims or what looks like begging pilgrims - are common but many answers go into a very different direction.I take it that you are half-joking, but I have thought about your post, and have looked up the location of St. Jean de Luz and I still don't understand. The OP said the guy was German; she didn't say he had walked from Germany. I still think it was time he went home!
He said he had walked from Hannover, Germany.I take it that you are half-joking, but I have thought about your post, and have looked up the location of St. Jean de Luz and I still don't understand. The OP said the guy was German; she didn't say he had walked from Germany. I still think it was time he went home!
He said he had walked from Hannover, Germany.
Then the timeframe of 3 and a half months is entirely credible.He said he had walked from Hannover, Germany.
Post like yours and @notion900's but also others (and hopefully mine) should not be regarded as political because they inform about or are relevant for what we see - if we look - along the caminos/chemins to Compostela and foster mutual understanding among peoples; it's actually an aim of the Cultural Routes, an often ignored aspect of the modern Camino de Santiago. Unfortunately, posters frequently use the occasion to express their general political views, often sourced mainly from newspapers reports, with little effort to research actual facts or background. Pity."We are not supposed to post messages that are political so will understand if the moderators feel this strays over the edge of what is allowed.
Then the timeframe of 3 and a half months is entirely credible.
I don't know a lot about social security systems and the charity sectors in Spain and France
but I, too, still cling on to the belief that nobody in these countries and surrounding countries needs to beg for money on the streets.
I was chatting with a pilgrim who was sitting next to the entrance of St. Jean de Luz's church the other day, and asked him how long he had been walking. He said three and a half months. I was quite impressed until he asked me for some money.
Has this kind of begging become fashionable or is it a one off?
I was chatting with a pilgrim who was sitting next to the entrance of St. Jean de Luz's church the other day, and asked him how long he had been walking. He said three and a half months. I was quite impressed until he asked me for some money.
Has this kind of begging become fashionable or is it a one off?
I had to think of the same story. Here is another link:About two weeks ago, I read the following article on beg-packers; tourists begging for money to fund their travels. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Western-backpackers-begging-fund-trip.html
As to today's "mendicant pilgrims": I must admit that I am in more than two minds about people who choose to lead a poor person's or moneyless life for just a limited time.
That is what the story of the German pilgrim sounds like. He has run out of money and doesn't want to go home to get back to work.
Wanting to correct a perception that is common in our culture, that those who have fallen on hard times are 'lazy'...there but for the grace of god....There really is no place for begging nowadays.
Generosity is a topic very close to my heart as my entire life is built around giving and receiving. A gift from the heart, and with no agenda as to how it is used is (for me anyway) a source of lightness and joy. But the wisdom of the gift is also important.In giving, I am learning, I have to give with an open hand.
Very true, JabbaPapa--but that's their problem and their karma, not anyone else's, yes? We can ignore them if we think they are fakes, after all.those who seek to live "as if they were penniless" despite the contents of their bank accounts aren't just lying to others, they're lying to themselves, and they're ruining their own pilgrimages.
A mendicant pilgrim won't ask for what he doesn't need.
I understand - at least I think I understand - the concept of mendicant pilgrims in Buddhism / Asian traditions and cultures. I know a thing or two about mendicant pilgrims and mendicant missionaries and mendicant monks in the Middle Ages or earlier. I went back to the website quoted above and see that they have the following categories:A mendicant pilgrim
Social support in many countries is slowly being reduced over time and this causes people to seek out help and support from new sources. The Camino, for those close by, could be one of the places favoured for begging although I haven't seen very much of it to date.
My attitude is if you can and are happy to give them give.
If you really can't help then don't feel guilty.
But, if you won't help for a reason such as 'I don't support scammers' or 'I earned my money the hard way and I'm not going to hand it over to some lazy low-life' then you really haven't understood what the Camino and pilgrimage are all about and maybe you're in the wrong place and should go walk some place else.
Just my grumpy old man speaking but no apologies.
looks like alot of important thoughts are coming from this begging question.I had to think of the same story. Here is another link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/backpackers-begging-money-should-ashamed/
That is what the story of the German pilgrim sounds like. He has run out of money and doesn't want to go home to get back to work.
Is it morally correct of him to depend on
My moral barometer says he should return home because pilgrms shouldn't beg
To be honest, as a tourist, I had little pity for him but this is my own opinion.
I met the German from Hanover in Hontanas. He "said he was a pilgrim" and had walked from Germany 3 months before. Our group spent the evening drinking with him. We never saw him openly beg and he never asked us for anything but we did share our wine and he got the last empty bed for free at 9pm when it rained. One of our group spoke German and translated his story - it wasn't pleasant. He'd lost everything and just started walking. We never thought of him as a beggar. He might be a scammer but he was pleasant, and caused no trouble...unlike the scammers around Burgos Cathedral!!He said he had walked from Hannover, Germany.
It would take about 15 weeks which is 3 1/2 monthsTsk,tsk,tsk, Berlin to Saint Jean de Luz is roughly 2000 km, how long would you need to walk the distance, and that's only one way, not counting the way back, plus there's still the matter of going all the way from Saint Jean de Luz to Compostela and back.
Yes, that's an interesting aspect. I guess it's all about trade-offs. We pay for and buy meals all the time at restaurants without blinking an eye, and considering that we're paying for someone's rent and living expenses.Although this wasn't begging we did encounter a couple helping fund their walk by cooking dinners in albergues for fellow pilgrims. They were asking for a tenner for three courses of fairly basic cooking if I remember correctly. It was by all accounts a very serious endeavour for them but I had some mixed feelings about it. I have no issues contributing to a communal dinner but I don't go on camino to fund others walks.
Pilgrimage now - not in the Middle Ages. I think I understand those pilgrimage periods better than today's.
We never saw him openly beg and he never asked us for anything
Interesting you should mention that. I've just got back from 10 days in Florence. While there I went to Lucca for the day. At 2 churches there were elderly people standing at the church entrances asking for money. I did decline but donated instead to the church. Why is the question....force of habit? Finding people begging irksome? Prefer to donate to an organisation? I'm not sure but it still bothers me.I've not met begging pilgrims, or what looked like people dressed as pilgrims, but was surprised to see people sitting in church portals in France and asking visiting tourists as well as church goers for money. Since then, I've also seen it elsewhere. It struck me as something "new".
I agree. He also said he needed another 3.5 weeks to reach Santiago.
About two weeks ago, I read the following article on beg-packers; tourists begging for money to fund their travels. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Western-backpackers-begging-fund-trip.html
The article went right through my mind as soon as he asked for money. Please remember I was a tourist in St. Jean and not a pilgrim although eighteen of us (mostly Swiss) had walked the section between Pasaia and San Sebastian two days before and were very aware and in awe of the pilgrims we had talked to (who were mostly German speakers as well.)
Thank you for this. It is the first evidence on this thread that our German was indeed 'a pilgrim' and not someone walking a pilgrimage route, on holiday, and expecting others to fund it for him. I can fully understand that, being beset with difficulties - you said he'd lost everything - he felt the need to walk; I've been there myself - beset with difficulties not of a financial nature - and guess I was fortunate enough that I was able to pay my own way on the camino. Indeed, there but for the grace of God...I met the German from Hanover in Hontanas. He "said he was a pilgrim" and had walked from Germany 3 months before........his story .....wasn't pleasant. He'd lost everything and just started walking.
A decade ago the Washington Post conducted an experiment. They had Joshua Bell, one of the world's best musicians stand outside a subway station incognito in street clothes playing for 43 minutes six pieces of the world's most beautiful and difficult to play music on his Stradivarius violin worth perhaps 3 million dollars and made when Stradivarius was in his prime and had access to the best materials. The post counted 1,097 people go by. The violin case was open for donations. Discounting the contribution of one woman who came late and recognized him, Bell, who can get paid $1,000 a minute for his performances, made $32.17.I survived on the streets as a busker (street musician) for a long time. I was good, very good and I made bank. But it is haaard work people.
That's why i try to stick to Spain, France and surrounding countries and experience around camino trails and not dwell on what I saw, learnt from locals or how I reacted in Morocco, New York, India, Jordan and Nepal.I just want to point out to this well travelled group the dangers of taking home values to other countries and cultures. Begging is a different game where ever you roam.
That is not what I am saying. The man has had a pilgrimage of 3,5 months. Lots of people have to save money for years and are happy if they manage to find 4 weeks to walk. They don't let others pay for their Camino.So you're saying the Camino should be reserved for the wealthy and the employed ? This is the touristification of the Camino in a nutshell ...
Triple like this and the rest of your post, obinjatoo. Thank you.Compassion is what we are called to offer. And that is my measuring stick of how I'm doing today.
If you give money to beggars, it just fosters begging as a viable economic option. Here in London, I get approached by beggars several times a day - sometimes two or three on the train and a couple in the street, on my way to and from work. I never ever give money. I work with former homeless people and they support my stance on this. Indeed if I meet a particularly noteworthy scammer (like the guy who cuts his own arm every single day and pretends he needs taxi money to go to hospital), my colleagues will usually know them. Here in London we have a situation where all beggars are 'professionals', simply because the competition is such that if you don't have a good story, you won't get money. I participated in a thread on this topic before and got given a hard time initially, but I won't accept criticism from people who don't live in places where they get begged from every single day. Beggars and scam artists no doubt see pilgrims as a soft touch, and they are right. Living in a little bubble of small good deeds and niceness, makes it hard for the peregrino to say no to their demands, and they know it. Beggars are also often controlled by pimps who take nearly all their money - do you think the 'deaf and dumb' girls are free to stop begging and get a job? They are probably trafficked and controlled and the money goes to criminal gangs. So sorry to break your illusions of doing good deeds, or it not really mattering.
If someone is really in trouble, you can offer them practical help, like making phone calls or buying a sandwich. The career beggar won't be interested in this, and will make excuses and a sharp exit.
Bit isn't that the point? That no "evidence" should be needed for someone to show a bit of empathy and generosity?Thank you for this. It is the first evidence on this thread that our German was indeed 'a pilgrim' and not someone walking a pilgrimage route, on holiday, and expecting others to fund it for him.
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looks like alot of important thoughts are coming from this begging question.
I believe that the most beautiful thing about freedom is the ability to do with the fruits of your labor how you choose. sometimes others will disagree with what you do and that is fine. I appreciate the nice forum to discuss this subject.
I think it is important, it can have ramifications if the wrong decision is made,but i believe individual charity is much better than standardization,even with its flaws. In other words each case is different and each person can assess how to handle that case, too much and a wave of beggars may show up,to tight and the love dries up. what a smarty i am, im just feeling bloggy today.
Well said. I live in the Washington, DC area and when I lived in the city, begging was ubiquitous. I rarely give money to beggars, exactly for the reasons you've stated. Our area has enormous resources for the truly needy, and I prefer to donate to worthy charities and do some volunteering work rather than unwittingly funding someone's habit. It's hard sometimes, but as you suggest, you're not helping by enabling professional cheats.
Indeed, a smile or a kind word costs $.0.I too prefer to give to the charities, but whether we give or not - I think we can acknowledge the person as a individual, greet them and answer them. Just like we would anyone else who takes us out of our day, to ask for the direction or the time. Maybe this thread, is just a conversation to make us more aware in our daily lives.
Let us not go there ... I'm already so proud of myself that I did not react in any shape or form to an earlier unveiled reference to the current socio-political situation in Germany, and now we are on the verge of entering the frightening arena of discussing US politics. Don't you feel the breath of the moderators in your necks?Germany probably has one of the best welfare systems in the world. So if he ...
I keep a ziplock bag filled with spare change on the table where I get ready in the morning. When I get dressed, I pull a handful of change out of the bag and stick it in my pocket. When someone asks me if I have any spare change, I pull some of the change out of my pocket and give it to them.
We didn't come across any beggars on the Camino, just givers. It was a gift to be the recipients of so much kindness.
Before walking the Camino, I would not have thought to intentionally fill my pockets before I left the house just in case I came across someone in need of spare change. It really is a life-changing experience.
I think the German pilgrim has given us a gift as well.
Buen Camino.
... - no pilgrim will go hungry on my watch ...
Definitely, up to a point. And everyone needs to decide for himself where that point lies. I recall giving with empathy and generosity to beggars on the way to Santiago whom I now believe were frauds. That does not bother me as I was, and still am, happy to give back a little of what I received. That does not mean that I am going to accept, unquestioningly, every story that I hear from someone asking for a hand out.Bit isn't that the point? That no "evidence" should be needed for someone to show a bit of empathy and generosity?
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