Camino Stories or Myths

[Stephan the Painter]

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino.

An example would be the chicken story from Santa Domingo de Calzada. I have this link about that story:

The Chickens of Santo Domingo de la Calzada

The town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada was bound to be one of my favorite stops on the Camino Frances, because I’m a sucker for a town with a good story, and Santo Domingo’s is a Camino clas…

caminotimestwo.com

The only other traditional story that I have heard is the one about how the body of Saint James was brought to Santiago. A stone boat...?

If anybody has any links that explain that story in more detail or wants to expound on it, I would appreciate it. Or more detail to the chicken story.

And especially any other traditional stories that I haven't heard, or suggested resources. Thanks!

 

[JabbaPapa]

The stone boat story is usually explained as St James' disciples travelling with his relics for a while, until eventually bringing them to Galicia where he had preached and founded a Christian community.

There is circumstantial evidence from Astorga as being a 1st Century Christian community.

 

[Pafayac]

Padron-galicia-st-james.html

 

[Pafayac]

Najera (Roland vs Ferragut): legends-of-the-camino-de-santiago-the-battle-of-roland-and-the-giant-ferragut-no-236
Sahagun (battle of Carolus Magnus): https://compostela.co.uk/mythology/miracle-lances-sahagun/

 

[lalaone]

If you can read French, this book is a nice resource.

For the story about the boat, it cites "The Golden Legend" written in the 13th century by the Dominican Jacques de Voragine, according to which Theodore and Anastasius first took St. James's body by boat to the port of Jaffa, and after many adventures and challenges finally delivered it to Galicia. I need to spend more time with the story to make sure I understand it properly, but maybe somebody here is familiar with the details.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Najera (Roland vs Ferragut): legends-of-the-camino-de-santiago-the-battle-of-roland-and-the-giant-ferragut-no-236
Sahagun (battle of Carolus Magnus): https://compostela.co.uk/mythology/miracle-lances-sahagun/

Thanks for all three links. Very good. And it looks like there's other interesting information on those two websites.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

If you can read French, this book is a nice resource.

For the story about the boat, it cites "The Golden Legend" written in the 13th century by the Dominican Jacques de Voragine, according to which Theodore and Anastasius first took St. James's body by boat to the port of Jaffa, and after many adventures and challenges finally delivered it to Galicia. I need to spend more time with the story to make sure I understand it properly, but maybe somebody here is familiar with the details.

I cannot read French, but judging from the title, it sounds perfect. Too bad there's not a E-book version that I could use translating software for.....

 

[JabbaPapa]

From the other end, the Chanson de Roland, whilst being a heavily politicised narrative regarding the retaking of Navarra, Roncesvalles, Logroño, Pamplona, and Zaragoza, does have a basis in more verifiable historicity ; that the poem of course takes great liberties with.

 

[Pafayac]

If you can read French, this book is a nice resource.

Thanks, I just ordered it.

For the story about the boat, it cites "The Golden Legend" written in the 13th century by the Dominican Jacques de Voragine, according to which Theodore and Anastasius first took St. James's body by boat to the port of Jaffa, and after many adventures and challenges finally delivered it to Galicia. I need to spend more time with the story to make sure I understand it properly, but maybe somebody here is familiar with the details.

According to The Golden Legend:
1) James goes to Spain but without too much success (9 disciples and 1 conversion). He leaves 7 disciples then and goes back to Judea where Herode Aggripa kills him by decapitation.
2) The 2 disciples take its corpse and bring it in Galicia.
3) In Galicia they ask the queen Lupa (wolf) where they can bury the corpse. She first try to put them in a trap (wild bulls, dragon...). But the disciples are victorious, then she convert to christianism.

 

[Pafayac]

From the other end, the Chanson de Roland, whilst being a heavily politicised narrative regarding the retaking of Navarra, Roncesvalles, Logroño, Pamplona, and Zaragoza, does have a basis in more verifiable historicity ; that the poem of course takes great liberties with.

Yes, the Chanson de Roland was written during the XIth century, 3 centuries after the "facts" it is supposed to give the story.
Furthermore, a sequel has been added later: Roland and Ferragut, the battle of Sahagun, and the whole story of Charlemagne and Santiago was written even later, during the XIIth century (it is part of the Codex Calixtinus)

 

[JabbaPapa]

According to The Golden Legend:
1) James goes to Spain but without too much success (9 disciples and 1 conversion). He leaves 7 disciples then and goes back to Judea where Herode Aggripa kills him by decapitation.
2) The 2 disciples take its corpse and bring it in Galicia.
3) In Galicia they ask the queen Lupa (wolf) where they can bury the corpse. She first try to put them in a trap (wild bulls, dragon...). But the disciples are victorious, then she convert to christianism.

Good stuff !!

 

[Tincatinker]

A “stone boat” is possibly a mistranslation/ miss understanding. A boat “in stone” would be a boat carrying only passengers and ballast. No cargo. No profit other than the fare paid by the passengers. If Santiago’s disciples brought him to Galicia in a stone boat they did so at great expense or with considerable influence

 

[Pafayac]

A “stone boat” is possibly a mistranslation/ miss understanding.

In Muxia, another legend tells about another "stone boat": Nuestra Señora de la Barca is the name of the Virgin Mary appeared in a stone boat in order to confort James in his mission.

Muxía and the secret of its stones - Let's Teach Europe

The Camino de Santiago does not always end in Santiago. Since the Middle Ages, many pilgrims have decided to continue their journey beyond Santiago… Read more

www.letsteacheurope-erasmus.site

 

[Harland2019]

Zubiri is Basque for “Village of the Bridge”; it was believed that this Gothic bridge over the Arga River was able to rid animals of rabies by driving the livestock three times around its central pillar – hence why the bridge was also known as the Puente de la Rabia (Bridge of Rabies).

 

[Tincatinker]

In Muxia, another legend tells about another "stone boat": Nuestra Señora de la Barca is the name of the Virgin Mary appeared in a stone boat in order to confort James in his mission.

Muxía and the secret of its stones - Let's Teach Europe

The Camino de Santiago does not always end in Santiago. Since the Middle Ages, many pilgrims have decided to continue their journey beyond Santiago… Read more

www.letsteacheurope-erasmus.site

Ah yes, except that is our boat. The boat that would take us across the sundering seas at the end of our days. The boat that is broken. The reason that I and mine walk West along the thousand roads. And one day I will arrive and the boat will be whole and I will know my journey is done.
Fantasy, myth, faith. Does it really matter?

 

[Harland2019]

In the Middle Ages there was talk of the miracles at San Antón since many pilgrims were cured of “St. Anthony’s fire”. The poisoning was actually caused by a parasite on rye, which usually ended in death. The disease occurred however after a poor harvest when bad corn was then used to make bread. They found out that the “miracle” simply came from the fact that pilgrims stopped eating the poisoned bread made from rye. As they walked across Spain towards Santiago where they grew wheat rather than rye they started eating bread made from wheat and consequently got better.

 

[Tincatinker]

The monks at St Anton are also held to have been remarkably skilled surgeons for the time. Able to remove afflicted limbs thus halting the spread of gangrene without killing the patient in the process ( “the operation was a successful, unfortunately the patient died” a quote, not a joke)

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Zubiri is Basque for “Village of the Bridge”; it was believed that this Gothic bridge over the Arga River was able to rid animals of rabies by driving the livestock three times around its central pillar – hence why the bridge was also known as the Puente de la Rabia (Bridge of Rabies).

Very interesting.

In the Middle Ages there was talk of the miracles at San Antón since many pilgrims were cured of “St. Anthony’s fire”. The poisoning was actually caused by a parasite on rye, which usually ended in death. The disease occurred however after a poor harvest when bad corn was then used to make bread. They found out that the “miracle” simply came from the fact that pilgrims stopped eating the poisoned bread made from rye. As they walked across Spain towards Santiago where they grew wheat rather than rye they started eating bread made from wheat and consequently got better.

Also, very interesting. Any sources for that (his)story? I tried looking online a bit and couldn't find any connections between Saint Anton's fire and Camino pilgrims. Makes sense, though.

 

[Harland2019]

Very interesting.

Also, very interesting. Any sources for that (his)story? I tried looking online a bit and couldn't find any connections between Saint Anton's fire and Camino pilgrims. Makes sense, though.

I read it in the Rother Walking Guide to the Camino de Santiago

 

[lalaone]

Too bad there's not a E-book version that I could use translating software for.....

Absolutely wish the same! I picked this up at a used bookshop in Provence years ago, with a wish to read it in the future, and only rediscovered it among my books recently.

Thanks, I just ordered it.

Hope you enjoy, Pafayac! I will be reading it too. In the meantime, here is the boat story in French.

 

[Tincatinker]

Let’s get some things right, St Anthony’s fire isn’t a parasite it’s the result of Ergot poisoning. A common affliction in the long, cold, damp years of the mid- Middle Ages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism

That the surgically exact brother-hood would dangle the results of their excisions for all to see was the closest anyone got to advertising in those days.

 

[Harland2019]

St. Anthony's Fire

St. Anthony's Fire (SAF) is an illness brought on by the ingestion of fungus-contaminated rye grain causing ergot poisoning (ergotism). The disease's common name derives from the medieval Benedictine...

www.worldhistory.org

"St. Anthony's Fire (SAF) is an illness brought on by the ingestion of fungus-contaminated rye grain causing ergot poisoning (ergotism). "

 

[lalaone]

As far as I can tell on St Anthony's Fire...you're both right, Harland2019 and Tincatinker. Both a fungus and a parasite, so to speak. The first in fungal form (grains) and the second in its function outside of grains (the "parasitic fungal disease" of ergot). The connection to San Anton is super interesting. I would love to know more.

 

[dbier]

Not Camino specific...but Mary was also reported to have appeared to James in the course of his mission at Zaragosa, and translocated the pillar of stone that Christ was tied to and scourged to that location. Thus, Mary of the Pillar Cathedral in Zaragosa, and why girls in that area of Spain used to be given the secondary name Pilar.

What I find fascinating about the stories surrounding St James is that they all agree that he was a near total failure in his mission. Also, while relics of St James the Greater, the Son of Thunder with his brother John, may be found in various locations, his tomb ( as far as I know) was not to be found in Jerusalem when St Helena did her inventory in the 300s.

Back to Camino stories...on the Frances, there is reportedly a bridge into a town that was defended by a " knight" against all challengers for love of a woman. Sorry, I'm in Salas now, so no source to hand.

 

[Pafayac]

Let’s get some things right, St Anthony’s fire isn’t a parasite it’s the result of Ergot poisoning. A common affliction in the long, cold, damp years of the mid- Middle Ages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism

Sorry, this is a bit out of topic, but not only in the Middle Ages: in Pont-Saint-Esprit (south of France), in the 1950's, a strange affair is often related to ergotism:

Ergot Poisoning at Pont St. Esprit

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[TaijiPilgrim]

Not Camino specific...but Mary was also reported to have appeared to James in the course of his mission at Zaragosa, and translocated the pillar of stone that Christ was tied to and scourged to that location. Thus, Mary of the Pillar Cathedral in Zaragosa, and why girls in that area of Spain used to be given the secondary name Pilar.

What I find fascinating about the stories surrounding St James is that they all agree that he was a near total failure in his mission. Also, while relics of St James the Greater, the Son of Thunder with his brother John, may be found in various locations, his tomb ( as far as I know) was not to be found in Jerusalem when St Helena did her inventory in the 300s.

Back to Camino stories...on the Frances, there is reportedly a bridge into a town that was defended by a " knight" against all challengers for love of a woman. Sorry, I'm in Salas now, so no source to hand.

I believe that story relates to the bridge entering Hopital de Obrigo. Jousting tournaments are still held there as part of a Middle Ages festival.

 

[Pafayac]

Yes, Hopital de Obrigo:
"One notable and special account is that of Suero de Quiñones, who in 1434 established the Passo Honroso ("Pass[age] of Honour") at the Órbigo bridge in the Kingdom of León (today's Castile and León in Spain)."
Pas_d'armes

 

[David Tallan]

Najera (Roland vs Ferragut): legends-of-the-camino-de-santiago-the-battle-of-roland-and-the-giant-ferragut-no-236
Sahagun (battle of Carolus Magnus): https://compostela.co.uk/mythology/miracle-lances-sahagun/

And, of course, Roncesvalles is also pretty important in the story of Roland. They used to have a number of his relics there.

In general, I would recommend (again!) Gitlitz and Davidson's The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago: A Complete Cultural Handbook, which has most (if not all) of these stories for the Caminos Frances and Aragones, and a lot more.

A few examples:
From Pamplona:
CC [Codex Calixtinus] Miracle 6 relates what must have been an all-too-common abuse: With his wife and two small children seated on a horse, [a] pilgrim arrived at the city of Pamplona. However, when his wife died there, an evil innkeeper nefariously took the goods that the man and wife had brought with them. The pilgrim, deprived of his wife and completely fleeced of his money and the horse on which he was transporting his children, began his journey again, bearing his children in his arms with great suffering. [CC: Book II; trans. Coffey et al., 70–1] The story, however, has a semi-happy ending. The pilgrim is befriended by Santiago himself, who lends him a donkey and who appears to him at journey’s end to report that “your wicked innkeeper in Pamplona is about to fall headfirst from his seat and die … [and] be condemned for all eternity.”
From Obanos:
Guillermo, a duke in Aquitaine, made a pilgrimage to Compostela with his sister Felicia. As they were returning, Felicia declared her desire to become a hermit in Amocain (near Elia, in northern Navarra). Guillermo, angered that she would not return to the French court, tried to take her from the hermitage by force. Raging at her rejection, he killed her. Instantly contrite, he returned to Compostela to pray, and on his second journey homeward he decided to remain in Obanos, where he wept for his sister until his death. He was buried in the Ermita de Nuestra Señora de Arnótegui, located south of Obanos.
From Estella:
Legend has it that in 1270 a Greek Santiago pilgrim fell ill in Estella’s Hospice of San Nicolás. He died, and, when he was buried in the pilgrim cemetery in San Pedro’s cloister, the grave glowed. When it was opened, the astonished clerics discovered the fragment of the lignum crucis and the bone of St. Andrew, as well as the pilgrim’s crosier and gloves, revealing that he was not a common pilgrim, but the bishop of Patras.

 

[Steven Dwyer]

Not on the Camino, but somewhat related because Santiago is involved, the mythical battle of Clavijo where he appears as Santiago Matamoros. Historians now find no evidence the battle took place.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

And, of course, Roncesvalles is also pretty important in the story of Roland. They used to have a number of his relics there.

In general, I would recommend (again!) Gitlitz and Davidson's The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago: A Complete Cultural Handbook, which has most (if not all) of these stories for the Caminos Frances and Aragones, and a lot more.

CC [Codex Calixtinus] Miracle 6 relates ....

I do have a copy of Gitlitz and Davidson's book. In terms of stories and myths, the problem is that the book is so dense unless you know what you're looking for you have to go over the book paragraph by paragraph. I had an e-book version with me on the Camino, and I found it interesting when I was standing in front of the things they were discussing, but I found it a tough read when I just sitting at home with no context! You are right, if you really want to know, that's the source!

I found this PDF posted on the Yale Alumni website which purports to be that Codex Calixtinus. Since you have a hard copy translation, does this appear to be the entire book? Or is it a truncated version?

https://alumniacademy.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2020-07/Codex%20Calixtinus.pdf

Although it's my sense that the Codex is actually an illuminated manuscript, correct? Is their a facsimile translation available?

Thanks for the input!

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Yes, Hopital de Obrigo:
"One notable and special account is that of Suero de Quiñones, who in 1434 established the Passo Honroso ("Pass[age] of Honour") at the Órbigo bridge in the Kingdom of León (today's Castile and León in Spain)."
Pas_d'armes

He sure did not sound like a pleasant fellow! I wonder what the purpose was for challenging each knight?

 

[Stephan the Painter]

What I find fascinating about the stories surrounding St James is that they all agree that he was a near total failure in his mission.

Our hero......

 

[Pafayac]

Here is a translation of Codex Calixtinus Book V:
ZF2.04.gui_Murphy_en.htm
You can order a translation of book IV:

https://www.amazon.fr/Chronicle-Pseudo-Turpin-Calixtinus-Medieval-Renaissance-ebook/dp/B00OZPWFB8

 

[t2andreo]

A “stone boat” is possibly a mistranslation/ miss understanding. A boat “in stone” would be a boat carrying only passengers and ballast. No cargo. No profit other than the fare paid by the passengers. If Santiago’s disciples brought him to Galicia in a stone boat they did so at great expense or with considerable influence

It is my understanding after speaking one-on-one with the Cathedral historian - through a translator - several years ago, that the the "stone boat" was actually a boat engaged in the commerce of transporting uncut and finished stone (e.g. Carrera marble) from Italy to Roman lands all around the Mediterranean, where it was sculpted. Finished works were similarly transported by these boats to customers at Roman port cities all around the "Roman lake" (aka the Mediterranean).

Following his death by decapitation in AD 44, the two traveling companions of James, Thaddeus and Athanasius, made off with his remains to Jaffa - present day Haifa - back in the day, Jaffa was a bustling commercial port. The two followers of James obtained passage - with James' remains - on a boat.

I accept this much as fact. Up to this point, it is my understanding that much of this is chronicled by the first century Roman historian Josephus.

However, my version of the facts varies from this point, and suggests that this boat was engaged in the stone commerce and captained by a convert to Christianity. It could not, logically, have been a boat constructed of stone.

I have done a little blue water sailing in the Atlantic. Nope, not a boat made of actual stone. A wooden boat, loaded with stone for cargo and or ballast - yup.

This is similar in context as we refer to a ship engaged in transporting fruit from one continent to another as a "banana boat." The transliteration is easy to understand.

After this the plot gets murky. There is a logical route explanation: the boat engaged in stone comerce let the party off in Tarroca (present day Tarrgona) on the eastern shore of the Iberian peninsula after making several intermediate stops at Roman ports between Jaffa and Tarroca.

If you check a map of Roman roads in Iberia, you will see that is more or less a straight shot on Roman roads directly to Astorga. My understanding is that Thaddeus and Athanasius obtained an animal drawn cart and traveled direct across Iberia, on Roman roads, to the region of Astoria. From there, it was as short distance to the present day Santiago de Compostela.

Then, there is the long-popular and accepted mythology. This is the myth as I understand it. The same two followers made their way to the coast - let's stipulate Jaffa - for brevity. There, a boat made of stone awaited to load them and their precious cargo.

This boat then sailed directly, in a more or less east-to-west line, across the entire length of the Mediterranean Sea, exited into the Atlantic Ocean at the Strait of Gibraltar, then made a 90 degree turn to starboard (right). The boat, ostensibly made of stone, then sailed several hundred more kilometers, up the Iberian coast, to enter the Muros River system and tributaries, until it sailed up the river as far as Padron. There, it docked. The disciples moved St. James remains from Padron to interment at the present day Santiago de Compostela.

The very beginning, James' martyrdom and journey to the coast is documented and not in dispute. True too, the very end, where the owner of the first century estate provides one of the family crypts to interr James' remains is also not in dispute.

It is only the middle bit, insofar as I know, that remains in flux. Just how DID James' remains get from Jaffa, to the region of the present day Santiago de Compostela?

Everyone has their own thoughts on this. I am not trying to force one version or the other. I am merely sharing what I have learned along the way.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[JabbaPapa]

Not Camino specific...but Mary was also reported to have appeared to James in the course of his mission at Zaragoza,

Well, it's Camino specific in that the Camino goes through there, as it is a major Jacobean site.

It is also known as the only Marian Apparition during her life.

What I find fascinating about the stories surrounding St James is that they all agree that he was a near total failure in his mission.

Yeah, that detail always gives me a smile -- though the Christian community at Astorga is supposed to have been founded in the 1st Century, so maybe not a total failure ?

 

[Stephan the Painter]

It is my understanding after speaking one-on-one with the Cathedral historian - through a translator - several years ago, that the the "stone boat" was actually a boat engaged in the commerce of transporting uncut and finished stone (e.g. Carrera marble) from Italy to Roman lands all around the Mediterranean, where it was sculpted. Finished works Were similarly transported by these boats to customer s at Roman port cities all around the "Roman lake" (aka the Mediterranean).

Then, there is the long-popular and accepted mythology. This is the myth as I understand it. The same two followers made their way to the coast - let's stipulate Jaffa - for brevity. There, a boat made of stone awaited to load them and their precious cargo. This boat then sailed directly, in a more or less east-to-west line, across the entire length of the Mediterranean Sea, exited into the Atlantic Ocean at the Strait of Gibraltar, then made a 90 degree turn to starboard (right).

The boat, ostensibly made of stone, then sailed several hundred more kilometers, up the Iberian coast, to enter the Muros River system and tributaries, until it sailed up the river as far as Padron. There, it docked. The disciples moved St. James remains from Padron to interment at the present day Santiago de Compostela.

Great and clear information for me. The myth and some documented stories.

Although the question I have is why his two disciples would've gone through all the trouble to bring his remains to the Iberian peninsula. That of course, was a multi-month or longer journey in that era. So why?
Thanks, Tom.

 

[dimdog]

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino.

An example would be the chicken story from Santa Domingo de Calzada. I have this link about that story:

The Chickens of Santo Domingo de la Calzada

The town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada was bound to be one of my favorite stops on the Camino Frances, because I’m a sucker for a town with a good story, and Santo Domingo’s is a Camino clas…

caminotimestwo.com

The only other traditional story that I have heard is the one about how the body of Saint James was brought to Santiago. A stone boat...?

If anybody has any links that explain that story in more detail or wants to expound on it, I would appreciate it. Or more detail to the chicken story.

And especially any other traditional stories that I haven't heard, or suggested resources. Thanks!

Hi, the story of the " hidden pilgrim" in SDC, an amazing play of light, with a beautiful story....

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino.

An example would be the chicken story from Santa Domingo de Calzada. I have this link about that story:

The Chickens of Santo Domingo de la Calzada

The town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada was bound to be one of my favorite stops on the Camino Frances, because I’m a sucker for a town with a good story, and Santo Domingo’s is a Camino clas…

caminotimestwo.com

The only other traditional story that I have heard is the one about how the body of Saint James was brought to Santiago. A stone boat...?

If anybody has any links that explain that story in more detail or wants to expound on it, I would appreciate it. Or more detail to the chicken story.

And especially any other traditional stories that I haven't heard, or suggested resources. Thanks!

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino.

An example would be the chicken story from Santa Domingo de Calzada. I have this link about that story:

The Chickens of Santo Domingo de la Calzada

The town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada was bound to be one of my favorite stops on the Camino Frances, because I’m a sucker for a town with a good story, and Santo Domingo’s is a Camino clas…

caminotimestwo.com

The only other traditional story that I have heard is the one about how the body of Saint James was brought to Santiago. A stone boat...?

If anybody has any links that explain that story in more detail or wants to expound on it, I would appreciate it. Or more detail to the chicken story.

And especially any other traditional stories that I haven't heard, or suggested resources. Thanks!

The story of the "hidden pilgrim" in SDC, who only appears at night, a wonderful play of light...

 

[SusanSmyth]

Sorry, this is a bit out of topic, but not only in the Middle Ages: in Pont-Saint-Esprit (south of France), in the 1950's, a strange affair is often related to ergotism:

Ergot Poisoning at Pont St. Esprit

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I can’t remember where I saw it, but about 12 years ago a tv documentary showed extreme cases of Ergot poisoning. The patients were convulsing and incoherent. The documentary said that Ergot poisoning was or could be the source of a lot of the cases of demonic possession during the Inquisition. They said the number of condemnations by the Inquisition rose each year there were bad harvests, precisely in the regions affected by Ergot.

 

[Pafayac]

The story of the "hidden pilgrim" in SDC, who only appears at night, a wonderful play of light...

It's a very sad story. A man meet a woman on the Camino: they were two pilgrims and walk together until Santiago... But, when they arrived, the woman told the man that she will enter in the benedictine's convent, just behind the cathedral. Since, the ghost of the pilgrim come back near the convent each night...

 

[dbier]

He sure did not sound like a pleasant fellow! I wonder what the purpose was for challenging each knight?

He was in love with a woman, and wanted to prove himself as being worthy of her, as I remember.

 

[dbier]

Great and clear information for me. The myth and some documented stories.

Although the question I have is why his two disciples would've gone through all the trouble to bring his remains to the Iberian peninsula. That of course, was a multi-month or longer journey in that era. So why?
Thanks, Tom.

Actually, that's probably easier, although speculative. The apostles and disciples that remained in Jerusalem were being killed as criminals. These two disciples were from Iberia, so it's said, and decided to return with him to a *marginally * friendlier place. Also (this part is quite speculative), they had probably heard from him the early teaching on resurrection from the dead, and wanted to give his body a shot at it. Being from a colder climate, they may not have shared the " plant em or burn em quick" practices that you see in hotter climates.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Here is a link, in Spanish, that has more detail about the stone boat story and the "Pedrone" stone in the town of Coruñesa de Padrón.
As I understood it, this seems to be the stone that the boat that came from the holy land with Santiago's remains was first tied to.

El Pedrón de Padrón. Donde todo comenzó. – Otra Iberia

otraiberia.es

 

[t2andreo]

As to the issue of James' success - in that he is reported to have only made 9 convents in the entire 8 - 9 years he preached in northwest Iberia, consider that:

During the Roman Empire, slaves and servants were property of the master or estate owner. It is a long-established historical fact that the servants and slaves followed whatever religious practice their master did. This was true across the entire Roman Empire. If the master worshiped Jupiter - so did the staff, etc.

So, and according to my Cathedral historian source, when the records or myth states that James converted only nine "people," those people were likely the rulers, masters or owners of estates, farms, wineries, or regions. Hence, and according to Roman tradition (if not law) all the hundreds of staff, servants, and slaves would have also followed their master's lead and converted to Christianity.

This practice is historical fact and practice throughout the Roman Empire - not just as it applies to James the Greater and his mission to Iberia, post-Pentacost. So, following the logic, each of those nine "people" likely represented hundreds of converts in each instance.

We will never know the actual number. In any event, it was likely in the thousands in total, not the single digits, as the myths hold.

Hope this helps clarify,

Tom

 

[tpmchugh]

Not Camino specific...but Mary was also reported to have appeared to James in the course of his mission at Zaragosa, and translocated the pillar of stone that Christ was tied to and scourged to that location. Thus, Mary of the Pillar Cathedral in Zaragosa, and why girls in that area of Spain used to be given the secondary name Pilar.

What I find fascinating about the stories surrounding St James is that they all agree that he was a near total failure in his mission. Also, while relics of St James the Greater, the Son of Thunder with his brother John, may be found in various locations, his tomb ( as far as I know) was not to be found in Jerusalem when St Helena did her inventory in the 300s.

Back to Camino stories...on the Frances, there is reportedly a bridge into a town that was defended by a " knight" against all challengers for love of a woman. Sorry, I'm in Salas now, so no source to hand.

A bit off topic but 'Total failure' is debatable. He converted a few people during his short time in Spain but then over the next 2000 years, the millions of pilgrims is a success. How many followers did Jesus have during his ministry but now has millions. Failure and success depends on the length of time you measure it. Back on topic, I read something about butterflies flying ahead of you as the souls of pilgrims of old. I have no reference for that, just a vague memory of reading it somewhere. There is a myth in Ireland about butterflies and souls but don't know the details. Galicia and Ireland are supposed to be linked in Celtic culture so maybe that links the myths

 

[David Tallan]

I found this PDF posted on the Yale Alumni website which purports to be that Codex Calixtinus. Since you have a hard copy translation, does this appear to be the entire book? Or is it a truncated version?

It does seem to capture what is in the Melczer edition and is not truncated, but it is paraphrased in many locations, although that could just be different translation styles.

 

[David Tallan]

He sure did not sound like a pleasant fellow! I wonder what the purpose was for challenging each knight?

To prove his courtly love for his lady, of course. Although he wasn't successful and was spurned, driving him to pilgrimage to Santiago.

 

[Pafayac]

It does seem to capture what is in the Melczer edition and is not truncated, but it is paraphrased in many locations, although that could just be different translation styles.

It is a summary of book V.
I have a french translation of the Codex Calixtinus (2847340297): more than 700 pages.
Book IV ("Pilgrim guide") is about 40 pages.

 

[lalaone]

Here is a fascinating preview about ergotism and the monks of St Anthony on the Camino de Santiago. I have requested the paper and will share it here if I manage to receive it. It sounds like the monks might have performed surgery in earlier times, but that after the year 1130 they were no longer allowed to perform operations (like removing limbs for gangrene) and had to contract with barber surgeons. It also sounds like the monks had impressive herbal treatments whose recipes have been lost.

A "Part 2" of the paper is available in full online, about artistic representations of ergotism in the latter Middle Ages.

 

[t2andreo]

Great and clear information for me. The myth and some documented stories.

Although the question I have is why his two disciples would've gone through all the trouble to bring his remains to the Iberian peninsula. That of course, was a multi-month or longer journey in that era. So why?
Thanks, Tom.

In the Roman Empire, executed criminals (like James, then under the local laws and whims of the King) were disposed of on the garbage pile outside the city walls and gates. So, someone who was executed would have their bodies simply cast upon this pile for the animals to scavenge. Ordinarily executed criminals were not permitted burial. This was a part of the cruelty and horror of law enforcement and capital punishment in the Roman Empire.

At this point, many people say WHOA! What about the Crucifiction, Death, and Burial of Jesus Christ in AD 33? Well since you ask, there is a simple explanation, and one documented by Josephus, the First Century Roman historian:

Jesus, an observant Jew, was executed on a Friday. Joseph of Arimathea, a devout Jewish follower and supporter of Jesus, went to Pontius Pilot and requested the body of the slain Jesus to give him a proper Jewish burial before the Jewish sabbath started at sundown Friday. He offered a tomb owned by his family. The other two criminals executed to either side of Jesus Christ would likely have been tossed on the garbage pile when they finally expired and were taken down.

So, the short answer is that permission was given by the local authority to remove Jesus from the Cross and bury Him in the Jewish tradition.

No such request or consideration occurred when James was executed 11 years later. He had only his two followers and traveling companions, Thaddeus and Athanasius to provide assistance.

By law and custom across the Roman Empire, removing an executed person from the garbage pile made you unclean, and subject to punishment for interfering with the final punishment leveled on all executed persons - denial of burial and being scavenged by animals. Once Thaddeus and Athanasius removed James from the garbage pile outside Jerusalem's walls, they were criminals. They had committed a serious crime and had to leave. This explains why they went directly to the coast, and got out of the region.

This all explains why they had to leave the region fast after obtaining James' remains. As to why they took him to Iberia, one can only surmise that it was likely a place near and dear to James. It is where he spent his time of ministry. He had friends and converts there. His remains / relics would be treated with more respect than in Jerusalem. Plus, Thaddeus and Athanasius were hunted criminals. They needed to flee.

We also are not certain of where Thaddeus and Athanasius were from. If they were also originally from the area James preached in, this might explain their familiarity and attraction to Galicia. In either event, they decided that they needed to put a lot of distance between them and the rulers in Jerusalem.

I think that about does it.

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I think that about does it.

Hope this helps,

Tom

Very thorough and clear, thank you.

 

[JesperK]

A bit off topic but 'Total failure' is debatable. He converted a few people during his short time in Spain but then over the next 2000 years, the millions of pilgrims is a success. How many followers did Jesus have during his ministry but now has millions. Failure and success depends on the length of time you measure it. Back on topic, I read something about butterflies flying ahead of you as the souls of pilgrims of old. I have no reference for that, just a vague memory of reading it somewhere. There is a myth in Ireland about butterflies and souls but don't know the details. Galicia and Ireland are supposed to be linked in Celtic culture so maybe that links the myths

I wouldn't be so fast saying millions of pilgrims. Just today at a "diner" 5km from O podrouzo I heard a fairly large group of people making fun of the religious aspects of pilgrimage itself - claiming it is a hiker path. A young spanish man tried telling them to have more respect for traditions but to no avail. To be honest: where have the religious aspects gone? 4 times I have had people question why I read the bible in the evening. Another pilgrim told me that he was close to going home because of the same experiences. Nevermind - just a little rant.

 

[t2andreo]

I wouldn't be so fast saying millions of pilgrims. Just today at a "diner" 5km from O podrouzo I heard a fairly large group of people making fun of the religious aspects of pilgrimage itself - claiming it is a hiker path. A young spanish man tried telling them to have more respect for traditions but to no avail. To be honest: where have the religious aspects gone? 4 times I have had people question why I read the bible in the evening. Another pilgrim told me that he was close to going home because of the same experiences. Nevermind - just a little rant.

Do not worry. One day, eventually, they will have to answer to the highest authority for their sacrilegious behavior and statements.

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do..."

Keep on reading the Bible, without interruption - except to do Pilgrimage.

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[tpmchugh]

I wouldn't be so fast saying millions of pilgrims. Just today at a "diner" 5km from O podrouzo I heard a fairly large group of people making fun of the religious aspects of pilgrimage itself - claiming it is a hiker path. A young spanish man tried telling them to have more respect for traditions but to no avail. To be honest: where have the religious aspects gone? 4 times I have had people question why I read the bible in the evening. Another pilgrim told me that he was close to going home because of the same experiences. Nevermind - just a little rant.

I am thinking of almost 1300 years of pilgrimage. The estimate is in the millions. The religious aspect has really only reduced in the last 10 years when the Camino became a collectable hiking trail. I am not a hiker as such and can't fathom why anybody would want to walk 800km unless for religious pilgrimage. I certainly would not do it if not for religion. But that's just me

 

[t2andreo]

The beauty of the Camino is that you can do it with any reason at all in mind. Even though it started in the mid-800s AD, it remained largely a Christian / Catholic thing until recent decades, when popular culture and media "found" it.

Then, when UNESCO proclaimed it a "World Hertiage Site," people sat up and paid attention. The rest is history.

The Camino has enough to offer to suit everyone's taste. About the only thing it is not is a remote, wilderness, through-hike. In this regard, it is more akin to Swiss or Nordic hut-hiking, as the essential walking model to to proceed from village to village.

Because the Camino is first and foremost a pilgrimage, part of the question is that there will necessarily be other people around. Depending on your personality and needs, this is either a positive or negative thing.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[KJFSophie]

A “stone boat” is possibly a mistranslation/ miss understanding. A boat “in stone” would be a boat carrying only passengers and ballast. No cargo. No profit other than the fare paid by the passengers. If Santiago’s disciples brought him to Galicia in a stone boat they did so at great expense or with considerable influence

A Brother in the Monastery in Samos told me that there is a belief that 'stone boat' meant a boat made of old petrified wood, crude, as it was not wood they could easily bend to form. Would this theory make sense ? More likely as it would have been considerably less expensive?
Thank you for your explanation...the mystery continues

 

[JesperK]

The beauty of the Camino is that you can do it with any reason at all in mind. Even though it started in the mid-800s AD, it remained largely a Christian / Catholic thing until recent decades, when popular culture and media "found" it.

Then, when UNESCO proclaimed it a "World Hertiage Site," people sat up and paid attention. The rest is history.

The Camino has enough to offer to suit everyone's taste. About the only thing it is not is a remote, wilderness, through-hike. In this regard, it is more akin to Swiss or Nordic hut-hiking, as the essential walking model to to proceed from village to village.

Because the Camino is first and foremost a pilgrimage, part of the question is that there will necessarily be other people around. Depending on your personality and needs, this is either a positive or negative thing.

Hope this helps.

Tom

I like your take on this. Having walked Oslo-Trondheim & kongsleden in sweden it's a good comparison - though I definitely. followed my own path and only a few times ventured into a village/or hut. It required more gear/supplies but I was never limited as to where to sleep etc.

 

[Pafayac]

A Brother in the Monastery in Samos told me that there is a belief that 'stone boat' meant a boat made of old petrified wood, crude, as it was not wood they could easily bend to form. Would this theory make sense ? More likely as it would have been considerably less expensive?
Thank you for your explanation...the mystery continues

I do not understand why some people want to explain myths and legends.
We now know that many events belonging to "History" are not actual facts. Nevertheless they have an actual impact on the facts. For instance, the battle of Alesia (Vercingetorix defeated by Jules Cesar) belongs to History, but many details belongs to legend. However, it is among the founder myths of France.
Regarding Santiago, it is the same: some parts of its story belongs to myths or legends. Nevertheless, it has a great impact two thousands years later, we of course know this impact.

 

[David Tallan]

The religious aspect has really only reduced in the last 10 years when the Camino became a collectable hiking trail. I am not a hiker as such and can't fathom why anybody would want to walk 800km unless for religious pilgrimage. I certainly would not do it if not for religion. But that's just me

While I agree with your assertion that over the hundreds and hundreds of years of its existence probably millions of pilgrims have walked the Camino for religious purposes, I would put the increase in non-religious walkers for at least twenty years, possibly thirty or more. And I would certainly dispute the assertion that those who are not walking it for religious purposes are walking it as a "collectable hiking trail". I think the posts on this and other forums and the statistics collected by the cathedral (when they collected people's reasons) tell a very different tale.

 

[lalaone]

A Brother in the Monastery in Samos told me that there is a belief that 'stone boat' meant a boat made of old petrified wood, crude, as it was not wood they could easily bend to form.

Petrification - really interesting! The brother's story strikes me for a parallel with the apostle Simon becoming Peter, "the rock on whom I will build My church." Perhaps that could also be called petrification. Perhaps a poetic parallel exists for the building of Christ's church, in which Saint James was also so important, with his boat (rather than his name) implying a transformation into precious stone. I am certainly not implying a direct connection, but it is interesting to ponder if earlier audiences would have drawn special meaning from the implied transformation of one material into another, stone especially.

 

[Bala]

.....However, my version of the facts varies from this point, and suggests that this boat was engaged in the stone commerce and captained by a convert to Christianity. It could not, logically, have been a boat constructed of stone....

....This is similar in context as we refer to a ship engaged in transporting fruit from one continent to another as a "banana boat." The transliteration is easy to understand....

Banana boat / Stone boat ....

I love every one of the "pious legends" (as my pastor calls these tales ) around the boat, but this one actually makes sense. Banana boat, cod fleet, lumber truck - no problem understanding any of them. So why not Stone boat?

We'll never know exactly what got St. James to Iberia, but I'm definitely adding this to the mix! Thanks Tom.

 

[aswansonsr]

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino.

An example would be the chicken story from Santa Domingo de Calzada. I have this link about that story:

The Chickens of Santo Domingo de la Calzada

The town of Santo Domingo de la Calzada was bound to be one of my favorite stops on the Camino Frances, because I’m a sucker for a town with a good story, and Santo Domingo’s is a Camino clas…

caminotimestwo.com

The only other traditional story that I have heard is the one about how the body of Saint James was brought to Santiago. A stone boat...?

If anybody has any links that explain that story in more detail or wants to expound on it, I would appreciate it. Or more detail to the chicken story.

And especially any other traditional stories that I haven't heard, or suggested resources. Thanks!

Iberia by James Michener. The last chapter is about the Camino. Extensive background on the lore of the Camino.

 

[Kathar1na]

See Galician legends about miraculous sea-voyages in stone boats: Some Irish and Breton parallels. The article lists and discusses numerous legends of saints travelling on water in stones boats. These are boats made of stone. There is also on interesting observation about where stories with this motif originate and how they got to Galicia.

See quote about James by Roman scholar and historian Flavius Josephus: he writes about a James "brother of Jesus" who was put to death by stoning in Jerusalem around the years 60-70 AD. Whereas the Compostela James was put to death by beheading in Jerusalem around the year 44 AD; he is not mentioned by Flavius. Not a single word in his twenty-one volume Antiquities of the Jews.

 

[Pafayac]

Flavius Josephus was not very interested by the beginning of christianism (we know since Voltaire that the Testimonium was added, or at least modified, later). Therefore, nothing surprising he did not write about apostles.

 

[Kathar1na]

Flavius Josephus was not very interested by the beginning of christianism (we know since Voltaire that the Testimonium was added, or at least modified, later). Therefore, nothing surprising he did not write about apostles.

Which is why an earlier statement made in this thread with reference to the apostle Saint James ("I accept this much as fact. Up to this point, it is my understanding that much of this is chronicled by the first century Roman historian Josephus") has been made in error.

In the Middle Ages, the various Jameses - Major, Lesser, Just, author of the epistle - often got mixed up, and this confusion is frequently still reproduced.

 

[Kathar1na]

I'm interested in reading about or researching some of the traditional stories (or facts, depending on your point of view) about the Camino

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for. I recently discovered that a book that has been occasionally recommended on the forum can be read online. It is T.D. Kendrick, Saint James in Spain, published in 1960. The first two chapters ("The Santiago Creed" and "The Creed in Controversy") summarise the basic myths about Saint James in Spain, their importance for Spain, and when these myths appear for the first time in written documentation that survived the centuries, and how and when these myths were developed over time.

The book is already 60 years old but I think that it still accurately reflects the current state of knowledge and research. I found the author's style entertaining and easy to read.

St James in Spain : Kendrick : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

PS: The website belongs to the WayBackMachine and I did not know until recently that one can read (some) books there in the context of their Internet Archive. The blurb says: The Internet Archive, a 501(c)(3) non-profit, is building a digital library of Internet sites and other cultural artifacts in digital form. Like a paper library, we provide free access to researchers, historians, scholars, people with print disabilities, and the general public. Our mission is to provide Universal Access to All Knowledge.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for. I recently discovered that a book that has been occasionally recommended on the forum can be read online. It is T.D. Kendrick, Saint James in Spain, published in 1960. The first two chapters ("The Santiago Creed" and "The Creed in Controversy") summarise the basic myths about Saint James in Spain, their importance for Spain, and when these myths appear for the first time in written documentation that survived the centuries, and how and when these myths were developed over time.

The book is already 60 years old but I think that it still accurately reflects the current state of knowledge and research. I found the author's style entertaining and easy to read.

St James in Spain : Kendrick : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

PS: The website belongs to the WayBackMachine and I did not know until recently that one can read (some) books there in the context of their Internet Archive. The blurb says: The Internet Archive, a 501(c)(3) non-profit, is building a digital library of Internet sites and other cultural artifacts in digital form. Like a paper library, we provide free access to researchers, historians, scholars, people with print disabilities, and the general public. Our mission is to provide Universal Access to All Knowledge.

Thank you! That's an excellent website, I discovered it during the pandemic and used it to read all sorts of wonderful books. I added that book to my favorites and read a few pages just now. You're right, it does seem like the author has a straightforward and readable style. I'm sure it will help with my research.

I quickly checked my local library because they can often get books from one of the many universities in this part of the US. They did have books by that author on the Druids, and the Vikings, but not the one on Saint James.

 

[VictoriaAria]

As far as I can tell on St Anthony's Fire...you're both right, Harland2019 and Tincatinker. Both a fungus and a parasite, so to speak. The first in fungal form (grains) and the second in its function outside of grains (the "parasitic fungal disease" of ergot). The connection to San Anton is super interesting. I would love to know more.

I think accuracy in these things is irrelevant since all myths and legends form in different versions exactly because of people retelling stories as they understood them, adding or forgetting things and through time stories change, even get updated, but stay always alive and relevant.

 

[VictoriaAria]

A bit off topic but 'Total failure' is debatable. He converted a few people during his short time in Spain but then over the next 2000 years, the millions of pilgrims is a success. How many followers did Jesus have during his ministry but now has millions. Failure and success depends on the length of time you measure it. Back on topic, I read something about butterflies flying ahead of you as the souls of pilgrims of old. I have no reference for that, just a vague memory of reading it somewhere. There is a myth in Ireland about butterflies and souls but don't know the details. Galicia and Ireland are supposed to be linked in Celtic culture so maybe that links the myths

In Greek mythology the soul (in greek Psyche) was made immortal by Zeus at the request of Eros (Cupid, son of Aphrodite) who was in love with her, and gave her butterfly wings (hence the famous statute of winged Eros and Psyche with butterfly wings in an embrace). For some reason many Irish legends have common elements with Greek myths.

 

[Kathar1na]

For the story about the boat, it cites "The Golden Legend" written in the 13th century by the Dominican Jacques de Voragine, according to which Theodore and Anastasius first took St. James's body by boat to the port of Jaffa, and after many adventures and challenges finally delivered it to Galicia. I need to spend more time with the story to make sure I understand it properly, but maybe somebody here is familiar with the details.

FWIW, the Golden Legend by Voragine is a collection of 153 stories about saints. It was apparently widely read in Europe during the Late Middle Ages. Also apparently the most often printed book in Europe between 1470 and 1530. A massive bestseller in other words. Seven volumes.

The complete work is available online and in English on a website of the Fordham University:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/goldenlegend/

The Saint James legend is in volume 4 - about 40 stories in one file but the stories of Saint James and Saint Dominic can also be read separately:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/goldenlegend/GL-vol4-jamesgreater.asp

NB: It's a legend and of historical interest as a legend and its influence in the Middle Ages. It's not a historical account of events in the 1st century AD or later.

 

[Kathar1na]

The Saint James legend is in volume 4
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/goldenlegend/GL-vol4-jamesgreater.asp

When I read through the legend of Saint James as described in the medieval bestseller "The Golden Legend", I noted that the journey is described as follows:

When the blessed S. James was beheaded, his disciples took the body away by night for fear of the Jews, and brought it into a ship, and committed unto the will of our Lord the sepulture of it, and went withal into the ship without sail or rudder. And by the conduct of the angel of our Lord they arrived in Galicia in the realm of Lupa.​

No mention of a stone boat!

Legends can be seen as narratives of miraculous events or as entertaining and delightful stories. When I started to be interested in the cultural-historical background and significance of the Saint James narrative I was initially confused by the timelines. I then realised that there are actually two different timelines: one of them is the timeline of the content of the legend and the other one is the timeline of the emergence of the legend. I am now tempted to say that, in many cases, the legend appears fully formed, as it is presented to us today, approximately 300 years after the period where the miraculous event is said to have taken place.

I got interested in finding out when the stone boat feature became widely known for the first time but no success so far. No stone boat is mentioned in relation to Saint James in the Golden Legend book and no stone boat is mentioned in the Codex Calixtinus either. The Golden Legend narrative describes, however, a miracle related to stones, after the boat with the body of Saint James, without sail or rudder and guided by an angel, had arrived in Galicia:

And by the conduct of the angel of our Lord they arrived in Galicia in the realm of Lupa. [...]. And then the disciples of S. James took out his body and laid it upon a great stone. And anon the stone received the body into it as it had been soft wax, and made to the body a stone as it were a sepulchre. ​

 

[Kathar1na]

I quickly checked my local library because they can often get books from one of the many universities in this part of the US. They did have books by that author on the Druids, and the Vikings, but not the one on Saint James.

Depending on how far and deep your interest goes , you may find the following book interesting which I am sure you can get through a library network:

https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Saint-James-Translations-Renaissance/dp/1599104172?tag=casaivar02-20

Description:

"The Miracles of Saint James" offers the complete text of Book II of the Codex Calixtinus, the twenty-two miracles associated with St. James, including the famous miracle of the hanged boy, who revives when his father returns from his pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. The introduction analyzes the types, places, and recipients of the miracles and discusses the appearances of St. James himself in these stories. This volume also presents the chapter 17 of Book I, the Veneranda dies sermon. This is a contemporary description of the necessity, the ways and means, and the dangers of making the Compostela pilgrimage. The author's diatribes against the abuses common on the route give the twentieth-century reader a fascinating view of life on pilgrimage. ​

I have the Kindle edition ($25.00). Note that the content of the Veneranda dies sermon (Book I, chapter 17 of the Codex Calixtinus) is different from the content of the so-called Pilgrim's Guide (Book V of the Codex Calixtinus).