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The only rules are those for earning a Compostela, and its value is only to the recipient.If cheating does exist it only exists in youre own mind!! Define cheating? What are the "rules" who defines them ?
Its prob inertia from youreself and you need to ask youreself why are you doing it or for whom ? Rules need not apply once you accept the real reasons and forget about everyone else!! Be a bit recalcitrant and enjoy
I agree but rules , earning and value are ambigious to every person and are very strong words also ,when considering a pilgrimage each individual has theyre own perspective and so they should!! Whats important to one isnt as important to another! And who is the authourity who has defined the rules values and earnings? Its a personal thing with which i think the "rules" are dependant on what one wants to achieveThe only rules are those for earning a Compostela, and it value is only to the recipient.
I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
If one took a bus or taxi during the last 100 km, and asked for a Compostela I suppose that would be "cheating", or rather lying if they told the Pilgrims Office that they had walked the entire 100 km. However they wouldn't be cheating me out of anything. They are only cheating themselves.
I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
It's a ridiculous concept in this situation, because if someone gets a certificate fraudulently, the spiritual consequences will be unavoidable.
When it's people who bus across the (nonvexistant) 'boring' bits, maybe we can stop calling what they're doing 'cheating' and call it 'cherry-picking' instead? That word's less likely to make people angry than 'cheating' does. Whatever. It's the same thing, no matter what you call it - and if you're doing it, you're the only one it affects.
The tradition of "walking all the way" is a relatively modern concept from around the late 1970s early 1980s. However since there is no official start then "walking all the way" is pretty meaningless.
Think carefully and hard. Imagine you are back in the 11th or 12th century. You are walking your camino in sandals and a tunic, with a staff and gourd. As you are toddling along, a farmer in a wheeled ox-driven cart pulls up. You exchange pleasantries. He offers you a ride to the next village. You have walked hundreds or thousands of kilometers from your home far away. You are tired, cold (or hot) thirsty and hungry. Do you seriously think this would be wrong to accept this charitable offer of a ride?
Everyone has their own Camino. We should be grateful we have the ability walk. That we have the strength to continue. The character to do it in the correct manner.I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
It's a ridiculous concept in this situation, because if someone gets a certificate fraudulently, the spiritual consequences will be unavoidable.
When it's people who bus across the (nonvexistant) 'boring' bits, maybe we can stop calling what they're doing 'cheating' and call it 'cherry-picking' instead? That word's less likely to make people angry than 'cheating' does. Whatever. It's the same thing, no matter what you call it - and if you're doing it, you're the only one it affects.
I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
Oh dear...are we doing this again? I am an older man with a bad back who has been to the Camino five times including walking from Roncesvalles to Santiago. Prior to my last Camino, I was struck by a car while crossing the street. I was able to get up and move on with my life. However, since then there have been various parts of my body that don't like me very much.
I walked for three weeks, last time, and had to transport my pack about 50 percent of the time. To not do this would have meant not walking the Camino. To not walk would have deprived me of a great deal of camaraderie from fellow pilgrims, and once again that uplifting spirituality of this walk. I felt the trade off was worth it. I did not go anywhere near the Sarria to Santiago corridor. Had I not gone, I would have cheated myself. Let us not do this to each other.
On my first camino, I didn't "cheat".
Then on my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th and 7th caminos I thought to myself ... "In medieval times, if a pilgrim was offered a lift on the back of local farmer's cart, would he have said "No!"???
So ever since then I have taken a bus whenever the need arose. So be it!
Agree! Everyone on this thread seems to agree about "cheating." The thread started as a lament about other people who don't understand. They are probably not reading this.Much ado about nothing.....
The tradition of "walking all the way" is a relatively modern concept from around the late 1970s early 1980s.
Well yes and no -- prior to the invention of public transport in the 16th Century though, there typically was no other choice. And even then, not everyone could afford that public transport 'til it was fully industrialised during the 19th Century and subsequent.
To my knowledge there is no rule book or guideline that states taking a bus, taxi, forwarding a pack or one that defines a specific town as a starting point. These, imo, are ways we try to make ourselves seem better than others who choose to do the Camino differently than we walk ours. Even on the Camino, some of us bring invented biases.
The only rule, in order to earn a certificate as a walker, is to walk the last 100 km's and have a passport that shows where you stayed.
Ultreya,
Joe
This year I heard some say that pilgrims who stays in hotel, whether it’s big or small family one’s or pilgrims who are not carrying their backpack are doing the “cupcake-Camino”I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
I was accused of cheating in the 1980's by an old woman in SJPDP because I had not walked from my home town. I didn't think so at the time but I now tend to agree with her.
The one who used to be the pilgrims' receptionist, from her home ?
She was a formidable character ...... and a true Camino Angel.
Madame Debril is a legendary figure. And so are you if you started walking from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port around 1984! I guess many tears would be shed by today's rookie pilgrims if she were still aroundYes she's the one. I don't know about being an Angel, but she was formidable.
I can't remember what year I was there, probably around 84. I can't even remember how I found out about her or even the pilgrim route pre internet days, but somehow or other I was told that she was the one to go and see and she would give me the guidance and blessing for my pilgrimage.
This year I heard some say that pilgrims who stays in hotel, whether it’s big or small family one’s or pilgrims who are not carrying their backpack are doing the “cupcake-Camino”I was really sad ☹ to hear that
Everybody do their own Camino
I agree but rules , earning and value are ambigious to every person and are very strong words also ,when considering a pilgrimage each individual has theyre own perspective and so they should!! Whats important to one isnt as important to another! And who is the authourity who has defined the rules values and earnings? Its a personal thing with which i think the "rules" are dependant on what one wants to achieve
I remember when I was on Camino or in SdC (I can't remember which) back in 2016 hearing that completing a Camino was the kind of thing that young Spaniards would put on a resume to increase their chances of getting a job. I don't know, maybe it was seen by employers as evidence of the person's ability to stick through something despite hardships. If people are making such claims fraudulently and using Compostelas to back them up, that cheating would reduce the value of a Compostela in proving similar claims.Some friends of mine are very wealthy. A few years ago, their daughter got into a very prestigious university that is now at the center of the cheating scandal that involves parents who paid to have their children admitted to prestigious universities even though their children did not academically qualify for admission. My friends and their daughter are now subject to rumors that they "bought" their daughter's way into this prestigious university. I know that is not true, but the cheating has diminished the value of her degree in the minds of many.
I would argue the same can be true for a Compostella. Rampant cheating on the last 100 kilometers diminishes it's value to others. I would like my Compostellas to be worth something. As such, I am not a big fan of the taxigrinos who turn Sarria to Santiago into a complete joke.
Just to add to this that it is only "cheating" in the last 100 km if one intends to ask for a Compostela. If there is no intention to ask for a Compostela, the last 100 km are no different from any preceding parts of the journey (except, perhaps, for being slightly more crowded).There is no such thing as cheating, UNLESS you fail to walk the final 100 km (20 if cycling) into Santiago. ANYTHING you do before that is of little consequence except to you. It literally means NOTHING in terms of qualifying for a Compostela.
Multiple times, while walking a long, wet, cold day, my get up and go, simply ran away. I have found myself 16 km into a 24 km day, wet, cold, and exhausted. Yes, I and many others here have called a taxi or taken a bus or accepted a ride into the next town where they had a reservation or were planning to stay. The ONLY time I just suck it up and press on is if I am within that 100 km threshold. That would be "being brave..."
THIS IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT CHEATING. It is being smart. One of the 'isms 'I have coined is that "...when on the Camino there are days to be brave and days to be smart." On a cold wet rainy or snowy day, outside the 100 km threshold, and IMHO, it is smart to skip ahead, especially if it may avoid illness or injury.
Think carefully and hard. Imagine you are back in the 11th or 12th century. You are walking your camino in sandals and a tunic, with a staff and gourd. As you are toddling along, a farmer in a wheeled ox-driven cart pulls up. You exchange pleasantries. He offers you a ride to the next village. You have walked hundreds or thousands of kilometers from your home far away. You are tired, cold (or hot) thirsty and hungry. Do you seriously think this would be wrong to accept this charitable offer of a ride? Using my 'ism' that would be "being smart."
Conversely, there are those who design their Camino making use of cars, buses or trains to cover as much distance as possible using the least number of actual physical steps as possible. I have seen this too. But the same paradigm applies. Outside the 100 km threshold for walking pilgrims, or 200 km for bicycling pilgrims, you can do pretty much whatever you feel like.
I hope this clarifies this point.
Responding to trecile's statement: "The only rules are those for earning a Compostela, and it value is only to the recipient."
Better to say "The only rules are for qualifying for a Compostela....". It is pretty clear who makes the rules for what is required to qualify for a Compostela - the people handing them out. Since it is their gift to the pilgrim, they get to make the rules about to whom they wish to give it. I may not agree with those rules, but I don't deny their right to set them.
Of course, those are the rules for receiving a Compostela, not for doing a Camino or for being a pilgrim.
Some albergues also have rules determining to whom they will offer hospitality. In general, I would say that is also their right. But those are also not rules for doing a Camino or for being a pilgrim.
However those rules are in themselves artificial. To me, the real point of any pilgrimage is to make a journey with the willingness to learn something about yourself along the way. I've learned while travelling across Brazil on local buses, by hitch-hiking across Europe when I was 17, By walking British long distance footpaths. When you are dependent entirely on your own resourcefulness to cope with what you encounter, you learn and grow.The tradition of "walking all the way" is a relatively modern concept from around the late 1970s early 1980s. However since there is no official start then "walking all the way" is pretty meaningless.
The rules for the compostela only apply to the last 100km and it's a bit sad that some feel the need to cheat on such a short stretch to gain a piece of paper, what is gained by doing so I don't know, but each to their own
Sir Dromengro, KBE, FRS, MA, PHD, BSE, ANED.
It is sad when people judge. We are all different and we do the Camino the way we can.I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
After reading this post the guilt is setting in. I think I "cheated" in a different way on my first Camino Frances. I used the GPS on my phone and strategically planned the timing of my arrival in Santiago de Compostela to find a Mcdonald's a few kilometres off the path and enjoy a Big Mac, fries and a coke rather than have another pilgrim's menu. I do apologize to any pilgrim purists but another dry bocadillo just wasn't going to suffice. That Big Mac tasted like a culinary masterpiece. Before I left the restaurant to arrive in the Cathedral square, I asked the manager if she had a stamp and she gave me a big hug - best "Buen Camino" ever!
Ok, again the guilt is still flowing, I also "cheated" on my second and third Caminos from Portugal.
I think it's all a part of one-up-manship that some people participate in. People make themselves feel better about their pilgrimage by diminishing other people's choices and other people's experiences. There are all kinds of things people can measure about their pilgrimage to compare to others: how far they've walked in total, how many km/day they average, that they've never used a pack transport service, that they attend mass, that they only stay in alberques, that they learned Spanish before coming... And comparison is one thing - it is natural to compare yourself against your peers to see how you stack up. It is the other side of comparison that is the problem - the judgement when people find others wanting. I always figure that those who accuse other pilgrims of cheating or not being real pilgrims are really just exposing something within themselves - some sort of personal insecurity.
If I might suggest that some people are cheating themselves of a certain degree of experience on the Camino, it is neither to diminish those people, nor to make myself feel "better", nor to cover up for any "insecurity", nor engage in any "one-up-manship", nor to be "judgmental". Indeed, to suggest that it might be any of those things is, rather ironically, a put-down in itself.
McDonald’s is off limits prior to receipt of Compostela; not within spirit of pilgrim culinary suffering and a slight to bocas.
Methinks you should be forced to build your own stocks next to the shadow pilgrim in Santiago.
Be placed in them upon completion.
Then be forced fed dry bocadillos until....
And, your Compostela revoked!!!
Actually, and NOT trying to provoke dissension here, but ANY COMMERCIAL stamp that establishes the location, and which can be annotated with the fecha / date, is legitimate for credencial purposes. On some routes, notably the Invierno, we would have LOVED to have encountered the twin arches, if only for the sello...and perhaps the baños...
Also, and as regards entering Santiago, if coming from the north, like, off the Ingles, past the McDonalds at that end of town, getting that sello would be as legitimate as getting one from the adjacent service station. I have obtained sellos from gas stations before on various routes...
The purpose of the sellos, writ large, is to place you on a continuous line-of-march in the direction of the Cathedral, and in a logical chronological progression. The actual content of the sello is nearly of no consequence. Admittedly, some are more artistic and intgersgting than others... but they all do the trick at the counter...
Then again, someday, someone will produce a credencial with a sello from a "gentleman's club..aka a strip club...or worse." Ah, there goes Rule One, everyone does there own Camino, and mine is not to judge... Just sayin... Nothing, but nothing, surprises me anymore...
Hope this helps...
That's the one next door to the old people's home? You know, if I had to go into an old people's home, that's the place I'd go. Because its next to the Camino, and for NO OTHER REASON. OK?Mmmmm, the Way passes though the car park of a large strip club on the VDLP. I'm sure that more than one pilgrim has a sello from there! Not me though, I was going to ask, but I chickened out at the last moment! And have you seen the price of accommodation there? Nearly 50 Euro an hour! And no cooking facilities!
Davey
Actually, and NOT trying to provoke dissension here, but ANY COMMERCIAL stamp that establishes the location, and which can be annotated with the fecha / date, is legitimate for credencial purposes. On some routes, notably the Invierno, we would have LOVED to have encountered the twin arches, if only for the sello...and perhaps the baños...
Also, and as regards entering Santiago, if coming from the north, like, off the Ingles, past the McDonalds at that end of town, getting that sello would be as legitimate as getting one from the adjacent service station. I have obtained sellos from gas stations before on various routes...
The purpose of the sellos, writ large, is to place you on a continuous line-of-march in the direction of the Cathedral, and in a logical chronological progression. The actual content of the sello is nearly of no consequence. Admittedly, some are more artistic and intgersgting than others... but they all do the trick at the counter...
Then again, someday, someone will produce a credencial with a sello from a "gentleman's club..aka a strip club...or worse." Ah, there goes Rule One, everyone does there own Camino, and mine is not to judge... Just sayin... Nothing, but nothing, surprises me anymore...
Hope this helps...
No, it was very funny. It's just that @t2andreo bit the humor hook and went in the other direction with it .I guess it was just a “bit”.
Do you accuse other pilgrims of cheating though?
I think it is a question of individual choice. I set out to walk from SJPP and was determined to walk it all and I was 70. I have no problem with people making personal choices I just didn’t want to.I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
I am curious as to your source for this. I have never heard it before. Certainly, I've heard that you need to confess your sins, repent, and go to mass and receive communion in Santiago de Compostela to receive the indulgence, but not every town along the way. Every little village or every town over a certain size? Each one that you pass through, or just the ones where you spend the night? Where are these rules written?If you want to be a purest , to receive your indulgence , you must go to mass in every town along the way and received communion.
I call that being a d!ck.Is it cheating to take a bus to the next albergue so you can spend the afternoon at the beach and later see pilgrims turned away for lack of room? This appears very common on the Norte. Is it cheating to take a taxi to a small.albergue to insure you have a room at the detriment of a pilgrim who spent hours walking?
Not bothered but astounded.I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
Would it be cheating to ask for mayonnaise for your bocadillo?After reading this post the guilt is setting in. I think I "cheated" in a different way on my first Camino Frances. I used the GPS on my phone and strategically planned the timing of my arrival in Santiago de Compostela to find a Mcdonald's a few kilometres off the path and enjoy a Big Mac, fries and a coke rather than have another pilgrim's menu. I do apologize to any pilgrim purists but another dry bocadillo just wasn't going to suffice. That Big Mac tasted like a culinary masterpiece. Before I left the restaurant to arrive in the Cathedral square, I asked the manager if she had a stamp and she gave me a big hug - best "Buen Camino" ever!
Ok, again the guilt is still flowing. I also "cheated" on my second and third Caminos from Portugal.
The bocadillo is suppose to be dry that way you have an excuse to drink beer and wine all afternoon
I am continually astounded by people who accuse others of “cheating”!
I started in Pamplona. I would think Spanish pilgrims would not have gone back to France to start...but I don’t know the facts.
Also “cheating”...taking a bus or taxi to the next town.
Mostly folks younger than me. Luckily I do not feel bothered by this!
I call that being a d!ck.
Jim the Camino is just like life, and life is not always "fair ".Remember Matthew 20:1-16 it ends The last will be first and first will be last. (not unlike beds in the albergues)Is it cheating to take a bus to the next albergue so you can spend the afternoon at the beach and later see pilgrims turned away for lack of room? This appears very common on the Norte. Is it cheating to take a taxi to a small.albergue to insure you have a room at the detriment of a pilgrim who spent hours walking? Seen this multiple times on the Frances. You can always justify you conduct no matter how atrocious.
Jim the Camino is just like life, and life is not always "fair ".Remember Matthew 20:1-16 it ends The last will be first and first will be last. (not unlike beds in the albergues)
If you want to be a purest , to receive your indulgence , you must go to mass in every town along the way and received communion.
If you want to be a purest , to receive your indulgence , you must go to mass in every town along the way and received communion.
I thought the former comment for some reason was made tongue in cheek.That is not true.
I had a memorable encounter on my second Camino with a German parish group travelling by bus to Santiago. One woman got quite heated and told me that people like me who walked solo to Santiago were not pilgrims but hikers and tourists. She and her friends travelled together on a bus in a church-sponsored group with a priest to say mass daily, hear confessions and lead meditations. Their journey was a pilgrimage. So my journey clearly was not...I walked into my accommodation in Estella only to be "abused" by an older man telling me that I was an idiot for carrying my backpack. So you can't win!!
the Pilgrimage originated Back in the medieval times it was a way of a person to be forgiven of sins or some wrong doing they have done. They embarked on a pilgrimage without much, in hopes that others would be kind, forgiving and merciful. They relied on food donations, rides, places to stay, and kindness!
If you walked to Finestre you received an extra indulgence.I thought the former comment for some reason was made tongue in cheek.
Unless you walk a mile in someone else shoes, you don't know where they have come from or what suffering they have endured. If you go around , accusing people of cheating, look at your conscience and ask yourself "Are any you different from those who persecuted Jesus"?I did the Frances in 2017 and copped the 'cheating' thing from the puritans for getting my backpack transferred and for taking a bus on a couple of days. It took all my restraint to bite my tongue when the same people caught buses a couple of weeks later. My response to them all is....my camino, my way.
I had a memorable encounter on my second Camino with a German parish group travelling by bus to Santiago. One woman got quite heated and told me that people like me who walked solo to Santiago were not pilgrims but hikers and tourists. She and her friends travelled together on a bus in a church-sponsored group with a priest to say mass daily, hear confessions and lead meditations. Their journey was a pilgrimage. So my journey clearly was not...
I am sure you took great care, not come across patronizing or judgemental, with these good German pilgrims.There will be always someone looking at the world upside down, "bless their innocent minds"
Ultreia
Ernesto
No, it was very funny. It's just that @t2andreo bit the humor hook and went in the other direction with it .
There is cheating in life as well as on Camino and it is when one lies to others about what one has done .. if one says one thing yet has done another that indeed is surely cheating?
As for those who accuse others of cheating on Camino due to where they start ... well, it is illogical isn't it? If you take the premise to the logical conclusion anyone who doesn't walk from their front door is cheating ... which makes it terribly difficult for overseas pilgrims.
As for leap-frogging the Camino ... well .. this is a difficult one isn't it - I make no judgement here and we all go on Camino for different reasons - 240,000 pilgrims? 240,000 reasons and 240,000 ways of doing it ... but as mentioned above, if it is a deep personal pilgrimage then every step is important .. injury, exhaustion, etc are all an intrinsic part of a deep pilgrimage ...
...
I thought the former comment for some reason was made tongue in cheek.
Bavarians, @Bradypus, they were Bavarians. It’s an important element of this story.I had a memorable encounter on my second Camino with a German parish group travelling by bus to Santiago. One woman got quite heated and told me that people like me who walked solo to Santiago were not pilgrims but hikers and tourists. She and her friends travelled together on a bus in a church-sponsored group with a priest to say mass daily, hear confessions and lead meditations. Their journey was a pilgrimage. So my journey clearly was not...
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