- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2018
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I agree overall with what you are saying, Jill, but the emotional state of each woman is different, the potential perpetrators are all different, and the customs of the countries are all different. I would like to "think" I could react with your confidence in such a situation, but have no idea if it would be possible for me to display that kind of self assurance. A self defense type class could probably help.
I agree with Camino Chrissy's sentiment.
Quite frankly, I don't know if I would take the time, nor would I have the emotional resources or energy to do what you're suggesting. I have literal trauma in my body from past experiences. I'm really tired of having conversations about how women need to handle men in these cases. Tired tired tired. I'm tired being the firm, reasonable one and goodness we don't want to humiliate the harasser, do we? I don't want to handle them with kid gloves anymore. This doesn't mean I'm going to kill, attack or whatever, just means my emotional labor is tapped.
He tried to offer me a room in his house. I just told him I had a reservation elsewhere and kept walking...That old man in Castrojerez followed me and pinched my butt.
You beat me to it. I'm beginning to see why you get credit for my best work here.Is there such a thing as wanted harassment?
To the OP - I'm impressed by your experience but I wonder if it works for everyone and in every culture I don't think I'd be able to strike that perfect balance to reprimand without humiliating, or push back without escalating.
Is there such a thing as wanted harassment?
It wouldn't surprise me if flying customers around does require pissing people off sometimes. Things happen. Despite best efforts, departures can get delayed or flights can even have to be cancelled. You may try and compensate people to reduce the amount that they are pissed off, but the company's finances may not support compensation to the level where nobody will be pissed off. So you try and reduce it as much as possible so that it only happens when it is completely unavoidable. What's left is necessarily pissing people off.Similarly, in 2013, Ryanair's CEO, Michael O'Leary resolved to try not to "unnecessarily piss people off" ... as if flying customers around required some degree of pissing people off.
I like your argument.It wouldn't surprise me if flying customers around does require pissing people off sometimes.
I agree with Camino Chrissy's sentiment.
Quite frankly, I don't know if I would take the time, nor would I have the emotional resources or energy to do what you're suggesting. I have literal trauma in my body from past experiences. I'm really tired of having conversations about how women need to handle men in these cases. Tired tired tired. I'm tired being the firm, reasonable one and goodness we don't want to humiliate the harasser, do we? I don't want to handle them with kid gloves anymore. This doesn't mean I'm going to kill, attack or whatever, just means my emotional labor is tapped.
@Elizabeth Cheung: If you are currently or soon walking in Spain or Portugal and find yourself unexpectedly in one of the situations described, in what ways do you think your advice will be of immediate help?My advice: how about the men start holding the men accountable for bad behaviour. Women don't need advice on how to manage a bad situation. Women need men to stop acting entitled to it in the first place.
Of course that is totally unacceptable.This is about a world where we are expected to run into this crap and deal with it. That, I find, is unacceptable. My advice: how about the men start holding the men accountable for bad behaviour. Women don't need advice on how to manage a bad situation. Women need men to stop acting entitled to it in the first place.
It's not just women. Every one of us is responsible for how we react to a difficult situation.women are responsible for how they react to a difficult situation
This plays right into the underlining misogyny that dictates "oh that's just the way men are" and places all responsibility for morality, reasonability and diffusion of a situation squarely on women's shoulders.
'They shouldn't be that way,' or 'I shouldn't have to do this,' is a pointless response when that's what's actually happening here and now. I don't disagree with the substance of what you're saying and completely share your frustration. But resenting unfairness and getting angry at the way the world is wastes a ton of energy. And when you try to change the way things are from a place of anger and resentment it just makes people turn away and roll their eyes. And that's not the point, right?My emotional labour on a trip - or just being in this world - should not have to be taken up navigating space men feel entitled to control. And yes, that angers me.
It's not just women. Every one of us is responsible for how we react to a difficult situation.
It's never what's happening outside that makes us suffer, it's how we respond that does that.
Thank you for that suggestion. I have, more than you presume to know.You might want to explore the degree of privilege a response like that conveys
I don't either, David. And being stoic and having equanimity are two vastly different things...I know that if I were a proper Stoic, I could face the death of my child with complete equanimity and not suffer at all. I am not that person. I'm not sure I want to be that person
Which is not at all what I am suggesting, and I think this may be where Elizabeth and I are speaking past each other. All I am trying to say is that if we add our own inner reactivity to what is already painful, it compounds the suffering.But when people do things that can be reasonably expected to cause suffering, I don't think we can take them off the hook for that suffering and put it all on ourselves. It strikes me too much as a "blame the victim" approach.
Me too.I've been of two minds about whether to attempt to contribute to this discussion.
I have been privileged in many significant ways. Does this disallow me as a woman (unprivileged) from expressing contrary opinions about this issue?You might want to explore the degree of privilege a response like that conveys...
I'm not so clear what message you're referring to, @Kathar1na , so I can't say for sure.Is this a premise for this discussion or not? I have difficulties in relating this discussion to the Camino/pilgrimage environment and experience.
As if it's stopped me, @C clearly?I have been privileged in many significant ways. Does this disallow me as a woman (unprivileged) from expressing contrary opinions about this issue?
I find this whole thread troubling. The belief system here is that women are responsible for how they react to a difficult situation that involves men behaving in entitled and agressive ways. Is advice on how to mitigate these encounters helpful - yes. Is showing up and telling women (again) helpful in dealing with this level of entitlement? No. This plays right into the underlining misogyny that dictates "oh that's just the way men are" and places all responsibility for morality, reasonability and diffusion of a situation squarely on women's shoulders. I get the intent here. I do. What I don't get is why as women, we think its a badge of honour to walk around in the world tough enough to look a man in the eyes yet in control enough to defuse or cajole him into de-escualting. As someone who has done that for years and convinced myself that "I" have the solution to not getting harassed, I can tell you there is cost to that. It's exhausting. It means as a woman, I am constantly doing the work to keep my surroundings safe in a way men never have to consider. It means that the part of myself that really could and should exist in a place of compassion, freedom, empathy, etc are muted in exchange for being the "tough by not too tough gal" who can "handle anything". My emotional labour on a trip - or just being in this world - should not have to be taken up navigating space men feel entitled to control. And yes, that angers me. It should anger every woman. As for the nice guys? In my experience, the nice guys don't need me putting in more emotional labour to bring them into the fold to do the right thing. They step up and do the work themselves because its the right thing to do - not because I, or any woman, was "nice" to them.
I really appreciate your contribution, thank you.I've been of two minds about whether to attempt to contribute to this discussion. I generally try not to (except to respond to other men posting who provoke a response). It isn't my place, as a man, to tell women how they should respond or feel or think in these situations. On the other hand, if the discussion is purely left to women to participate in it reinforces the perception that these issues are not men's problems and they should be left up to women to solve. I don't believe that, which is why I am typing now. I fully agree that the best way to address the issues of sexual assault and harassment is generally to alter the behaviour of men rather than women. (I say "generally" because, while it is much more likely that the victim of sexual assault or harassment is a woman, it is not universally the case.) The best and most just solution is not for women to do X, Y and Z to avoid being assaulted but for men not to assault. That doesn't mean women should not do or think or feel whatever works for them in this world were men are not universally stepping up and providing that best and more just solution. And I'm not going to presume to say what that should be.
While I am here, I can't resist responding to a bit from VNwalking's post above. She writes:
This really speaks to me. I've always been particularly fond of Stoic philosophy. I absolutely agree that we are each responsible for how we act, and that includes how we react. But looking at the second sentence, I think we also need to acknowledge that we are all human and not all capable of that level of self-control all the time. I know that if I were a proper Stoic, I could face the death of my child with complete equanimity and not suffer at all. I am not that person. I'm not sure I want to be that person, despite my leanings towards Stoicism. If someone were to kill my child, I don't think it is unfair to say that they caused my suffering rather than that I caused it myself. In summary, I agree that we are responsible for our actions and reactions. I agree that the attitude and approach we bring to our experiences can affect what we get from them and how much we suffer. But when people do things that can be reasonably expected to cause suffering, I don't think we can take them off the hook for that suffering and put it all on ourselves. It strikes me too much as a "blame the victim" approach. That said, if the Stoic approach works for you in these cases, more power to you. As I mentioned above, I'm not going to presume to tell you what solutions should or shouldn't work for you.
A self defense type class could probably help with insecurities.
The state of mind you describe and its subconscious effect, upon both you and anyone who is looking out for a woman to intimidate, terrorise, or attack, can make the difference between personal danger and personal empowerment.
Many of us have trodden the path from fear and submission, through resentment to outrage ... and for many women, in the 70s and 80s, our response was to work together on a political level (in the sense that “the personal is political”) and, at the same time, to ‘arm’ ourselves with the self-defense skills that would give us the confidence to manage the world as it actually was ... as opposed to the way it should be. (eg the WAVAW conferences)
I can't imagine how we get from here to there in the world as it is today, and I know I'm hardly alone in that. Hence the emphasis on what to do to deal with harassment and to avoid assault - and our inner responses to whatever arises.I fully agree that the best way to address the issues of sexual assault and harassment is generally to alter the behaviour of men rather than women. (I say "generally" because, while it is much more likely that the victim of sexual assault or harassment is a woman, it is not universally the case.) The best and most just solution is not for women to do X, Y and Z to avoid being assaulted but for men not to assault.
The first message. The one that started the thread. The one that says: "culturally celebrated in stories, jokes and song".I'm not so clear what message you're referring to, so I can't say for sure.
Oh, my memory! It wasn't macho I was thinking of, it was mcp of course.the word macho tries to describe that was coined in the late 60s elsewhere
Yes. However, what is referred to in the first message are "uncomfortable situations (and these are far, far more likely to happen than violent attacks)".In Spain there are quite a few foreigners involved in violence against women cases (inmigrants and tourists ).
They also might stop being an issue if we stop taking your oh so politically correct and 'open' view about this kind of behaviour - its just wrong and totally unacceptable. And if you were a woman you might just understand that. Or do you think its OK for men to behave in this way because of gender and historically thats just how it is?Of course that is totally unacceptable.
But the reality check is that people who are jerks will not stop being that way just because we're tired of it. Demanding that the world be different than it is is useless and exhausting.
But things might begin to change if we take the energy of that outrage not to preach, but to open the hearts of the good men out there to the pain that's under the outrage. Messages delivered with anger don't get heard as well as the ones that work through emotional connection - and strong but respectful clarity works better than demand.
They also might stop being an issue if we stop taking your oh so politically correct and 'open' view about this kind of behaviour - its just wrong and totally unacceptable. And if you were a woman you might just understand that. Or do you think its OK for men to behave in this way because of gender and historically thats just how it is?
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