- Time of past OR future Camino
- I have walked part of the Camino Frances one and a half times. I ended in Sahagun in April 2019.
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Any particular place you drank this?I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
Where did you get unpasteurized milk?I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful!
ONLY DRINK BOTTLED WATER FROM HORNILLOS DEL CAMINO TO CARRION DE LOS CONDES TO MORATINOS.
Latin is spreading!Post hoc ergo sum hoc
Sorry to hear that you got very sick. I hope you have recovered.I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
Thank you for thatA lot if pilgrims has stomach problems on the Meseta. It seems to come from tap water on the Meseta and particularly around Burgos, Boadillo del Camino and Carrion de los Condes. So it is probably a good idea to buy bottled water close to the industrial farming areas on the Meseta between Burgos and Astorga.
Yes, it was at my hotel’s breakfast buffet. I am not mentioning the name because I don’t want to hurt their business — might just be a one-off problem.Any particular place you drank this?
Are you sure about the source of your food poisoning? We walked last September-October and a very large number of pilgrims (including me) became very ill in or around that area. There were many different theories about what had caused this. A lot of people believed that the water in the area was bad and those who had consistently drunk bottled water has escaped the problems. Hope you are well now.I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
It was available on the unattended breakfast buffet. It tasted very good but the earthy cow smell was the dead give-away. I put about 3-4 ounces into my coffee.Sorry to hear that you got very sick. I hope you have recovered.
Never mind the water, that’s become ““common““ pilgrim knowledge and I doubt that the reason or source will ever be found.
So I take it that you were offered raw untreated milk (cow or other animal?). Was it from a farm or some albergue or bar with a particular emphasis on health or ecological food? No names necessary, just a general description.
I’m curious as I can never find what I’d call fresh milk in a supermarket cooler in this part of Spain. All they seem to have is UHT milk.
I’d run a mile from raw milk, btw. Don’t like the taste, whether truly raw or cooked to boiling point. Had it as a child. Still loathe the taste and look of it.
So sorry for your illness. Every time I’ve gotten food poisoning I felt like “carrion”. Hopefully we can all learn from this and be careful. How can we tell if the milk or milk product is pasteurized?I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
I was feeling bad within a couple of hours but did not start vomiting for another 7 hours. Then the diarrhea started a few hours after that. The hotel proprietors took me to a clinic where I got hooked up to an IV drip. I spent the next day or so rehydrating and trying to eat so that I could take the train from Leon to Bilbao and then back home.How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?
Unpasteurized milk is creamier in appearance and taste plus it has a distinctively EARTHY (cow) smell which I find slightly revolting. I have never been sick from drinking it before, but all of my alarms will go off in the future at that aroma.So sorry for your illness. Every time I’ve gotten food poisoning I felt like “carrion”. Hopefully we can all learn from this and be careful. How can we tell if the milk or milk product is pasteurized?
It was hot enough for good cafe con leche caliente but it did not burn the lips.How long after you drank it did you have symptoms? How 'caliente' was the leche?
Maybe you were lactose intolerant. Can happen anytime. How fresh? Cow to you. That's how I like it, and I only order if that is possible. I'm sorry. You help me watch myself. In PakistanI became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
I agree. I always pay for bottled water in Spain. My friend Luis from Madrid does not recommend that foreigners drink their water even though it’s processed.Vanozza: Sorry to hear about your sickness. Unpasteurized milk is always risky for those of us whose stomachs are not accustomed to the additional bacteria. However, if the milk was heated to the correct temperature for enough time, it may have been something else. In the past I have read and kept a note to ONLY DRINK BOTTLED WATER FROM HORNILLOS DEL CAMINO TO CARRION DE LOS CONDES TO MORATINOS. May or may not be necessary, but better safe than sorry.
I have never been lactose intolerant, but the doctor in the clinic was talking about that incessantly. I did not follow the discussion very well in my near-death state and my intermediate level Spanish.Maybe you were lactose intolerant. Can happen anytime. How fresh? Cow to you. That's how I like it, and I only order if that is possible. I'm sorry. You help me watch myself. In Pakistanunpasteurized milk gives people fatty tumors, not dangerous, lumpy, scary. I don't know how much or often one has to drink it??
This is true, but I am skeptical about there being raw milk served in the first place. I had understood that outside of Catalonia, all milk has to be pasteurized. Maybe there is someone with a better understanding of this matter who can advise on this.''Seeing the cow being milked'' is no insurance against illness or disease either . Brucellosis or Undulant fever also historically named Malta fever is contracted from unpasturised milk from infected goats and cows , a dreadfully painful affliction with long lasting symptoms guaranteed to bring anyone's Camino to a halt.
That is my experience as well, but the fact that some of us have avoided becoming unwell does not prove there is no problem.Walked through there 3 times and ate.and drañk everything
I never got sick on the Caminos It remains one of my favorite towns I took food down to the river at the back and had a lovely picnic
So sorry your experience was so different.
Completely off-topic but I have to correct you so we won't spread false information. The stretch without any fuente after Carrion you are mentioning is long ca.17km and in Calzadilla de la Cueza you can find a lot of potable water be it from fuente, tap in the bar or bottled from the store. In peak season roughly halfway in a shade of a few trees by the road there can even be a camper van with snacks and drinks....
Also, and this is something others might consider, I lash an extra 1.5 liter water bottle to my rucksack coming out of Carrion. There will be a lot of other pilgrims who "did not get the memo" about sketchy groundwater supplies. There is at least 30 km with nil potable water from Carrion.
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Yes, but in my mind's eye they're picking over the carcass of a long departed plgrim.The thing about gastroenteritis is that it is hard to know when and how you ingested something tainted. Some germs show symptoms within an hour, others take a few days and a few take over a week to become symptomatic. This being said, I have noticed several (anecdotal) posts over the last couple of years from people getting sick in or shortly after Carrion de Los Condes. I'm also wondering if there is a water issue in that area.
(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)
Never mind the water, that’s become ““common““ pilgrim knowledge...
...There will be a lot of other pilgrims who "did not get the memo" about sketchy groundwater supplies....
That is a very negative way to say that their English was not good enough to be of adequate service to you.. It usually means that they speak/understand a little or a lot, and are willing to try to speak it with you.When people day they speak English, they usually do not.
It was hot enough for good cafe con leche caliente but it did not burn the lips.
I was feeling bad within a couple of hours but did not start vomiting for another 7 hours. Then the diarrhea started a few hours after that. The hotel proprietors took me to a clinic where I got hooked up to an IV drip. I spent the next day or so rehydrating and trying to eat so that I could take the train from Leon to Bilbao and then back home.
I have lived for almost 13 years in the area described. I drink the water, I eat the food, I walk the trail. I am not sick, most of the time.
Water is tested, kitchens are inspected, thousands of pilgrims pass through without any ill effects. But some people get sick, and get on the internet, and find romantic tales from years past of "bad water on the Meseta." It is so much more dramatic than "gastro germs spread among travelers living in crowded conditions." They buy into the myth, and it lives on.
If the water was bad, we ALL would be ill.
The water is fine. IMHO, if there is a "locus of infection," it's a lot more likely to be an albergue bathroom somewhere up the trail.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
(BTW, it is illegal in Spain to sell or serve raw milk in any commercial establishment.)
I have lived for almost 13 years in the area described. I drink the water, I eat the food, I walk the trail. I am not sick, most of the time.
Water is tested, kitchens are inspected, thousands of pilgrims pass through without any ill effects. But some people get sick, and get on the internet, and find romantic tales from years past of "bad water on the Meseta." It is so much more dramatic than "gastro germs spread among travelers living in crowded conditions." They buy into the myth, and it lives on.
If the water was bad, we ALL would be ill.
The water is fine. IMHO, if there is a "locus of infection," it's a lot more likely to be an albergue bathroom somewhere up the trail.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
(BTW, it is illegal in Spain to sell or serve raw milk in any commercial establishment.)
I had put two quotation marks around common and I said in the same sentence that I doubt that the reason or source will ever be found. I thought it was obvious from the way I put it, also in view of a number of other comments, that I am not convinced that there is something wrong with tap water in Spain and that includes the part of the Camino Frances that goes through the Meseta.Perhaps I'm reading this wrong (?) however, this is the first I'm reading about water issues so it's not 'common' pilgrim knowledge.
I'm not familiar with the legal situation in Spain but I would be extremely surprised if raw milk was offered at a breakfast buffet in a hotel and without being clearly marked as such.It was available on the unattended breakfast buffet. It tasted very good but the earthy cow smell was the dead give-away. I put about 3-4 ounces into my coffee.
I find it tiresome, hearing this slander every year.
@Rebekah Scott's and @Margaret Butterworth's comments prompted me to go back to see what was said then. While we did get to a similar position where the unjustified blaming was addressed much more quickly, very similar points have been made. For those who want to understand why @Rebekah Scott and others amongst us find it a little tiresome to see this raised again, the thread in question is here.This was the subject of my very first post on this forum. I wanted to warn others about this restaurant. The moderators took exception to my "naming and shaming"
Not to get off track with your point but there are important time/temperature conditions for pasteurization. At ~145°F it would require about 30 minutes of sustained temperature contact time. Not all coffee/milk preparations or consumption habits would fulfill the conditions necessary.Then it is unlikely to have caused food poisoning. Raw milk heated to 145 F /62.7 c will effectively 'pasteurize' the milk. It does not have to be held at that temperature indefinitely, so a lot of establishments will typically heat it to that temperature and then either hold it at a lower temp, or store it refrigerated to serve later.
When working for public health, it was required for local food establishments that used raw milk to do that very thing.
''Seeing the cow being milked'' is no insurance against illness or disease either . Brucellosis or Undulant fever also historically named Malta fever is contracted from unpasturised milk from infected goats and cows , a dreadfully painful affliction with long lasting symptoms guaranteed to bring anyone's Camino to a halt.
Not to get off track with your point but there are important time/temperature conditions for pasteurization. At ~145°F it would require about 30 minutes of sustained temperature contact time. Not all coffee/milk preparations or consumption habits would fulfill the conditions necessary.
So did you ever see or have you ever been offered raw milk in Spain???Right. In Spain I use only UHT milk even though it can taste cardboardy. Why take chances?
Maybe it was "agua no tratada"?... I remember at least one fountain in a village - perhaps Trabadelo? - where it said something like "this water is not controlled" or similar, I don't recall the exact words. In other places I've seen public fountains that are clearly marked as no potable (not safe to drink), either in words or picture.
No, it was definitely something like "not checked" or "not under control“. We saw similar wording elsewhere. My guess is that it‘s mainly about nitrate content anyway. Which has become a problem in rural areas in Europe and elsewhere where there is intensive agriculture or cattle raising.Maybe it was "agua no tratada"?
I had bad diarrhoea last year in Carrion and because of other health issues ended up in hospital for the day. Lots of tests. Doctors said nothing seriously wrong just a seasonal virus that comes each year. It was October. Others became sick before or at Carrion. My wife started vomiting a day or so later. Many blamed water or food and the medical advice from the local doctors it wasn’t the cause.I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
I love that town too. It’s so beautiful.Walked through there 3 times and ate.and drañk everything
I never got sick on the Caminos It remains one of my favorite towns I took food down to the river at the back and had a lovely picnic
So sorry your experience was so different.
I think this is a misunderstanding. While the EU drinking water directive does not cover bottled mineral water, it doesn't mean it is not controlled. Quite the contrary. The bottled water industry is one of the most controlled sectors in the food and drink business. Also, in contrast to the UK and the US for example, around 80% of bottled water in the EU is natural mineral water, not spring waters or bottled drinking water.You do realise that bottled mineral water has a lower standard than municipal water? According to the EU water directive ...
I don't know how long this warning appears in the guide books. Maybe only 10 years, maybe 20?
Why it has to be repeated again and again and again ...
You can also find that warning for the first 2/3 of Via de la Plata and other arid zones in Spain.
The water from the tap is controlled, purifified (with UV light) and chlorified all over Spain! For that reason it does not have any bacteria and tastes bad. In the meseta it may contain more fertilizer, nickel, lead, ..., than usual, but it is still good enough for humans. People with reduced health defence (from heat, sun-burn, bad sleep, different food) may already show an reaction, but you'll never really know the origin.
If people drink water from the few fountains there is always more risk. In Galicia you will find warnings if the water is "not controlled", but in other places I saw only "no potable" for probably very bad water and mostly no sign at all.
Summary: If you feel uncomfortable with tap water buy your liquids or take a filter with you. With the latter you can drink from any pond or puddle.
I don't know how long this warning appears in the guide books. Maybe only 10 years, maybe 20?
Why it has to be repeated again and again and again ...
You can also find that warning for the first 2/3 of Via de la Plata and other arid zones in Spain.
The water from the tap is controlled, purifified (with UV light) and chlorified all over Spain! For that reason it does not have any bacteria and tastes bad. In the meseta it may contain more fertilizer, nickel, lead, ..., than usual, but it is still good enough for humans. People with reduced health defence (from heat, sun-burn, bad sleep, different food) may already show an reaction, but you'll never really know the origin.
If people drink water from the few fountains there is always more risk. In Galicia you will find warnings if the water is "not controlled", but in other places I saw only "no potable" for probably very bad water and mostly no sign at all.
Summary: If you feel uncomfortable with tap water buy your liquids or take a filter with you. With the latter you can drink from any pond or puddle.
Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.It is interesting the we (collectively) are avoiding a level of self reflection, and seem to be ignoring those who have suggested other explanations that don't blame the food and water.
We may not be able to tell what caused @Vanozza or anyone else's GI issues. What we have established, though, is that it is almost definitely not for the reason originally stated - raw milk. It is also extremely unlikely to have been tap water, and pretty unlikely to have been food served and consumed in a restaurant or bar.
So what is left? Quite simply, us and our observance or lack thereof of good food and personal hygiene practices.
I see all of these practices both in day-to-day life and saw them regularly on the Camino. I took some of these risks myself, And I knew that if I did have an upset stomach or loose bowel, I needed to be more careful. I was far more likely to be the cause of my own problems than anything else.
- If you buy a bocadillo in the morning to eat for lunch, not doing something to sanitize your hands before you remove it from its wrapping puts you at increased risk.
- If you buy a salami from the cold section of a supermercado rather than find one hanging un-refrigerated from a rack in the deli, and leave it it your pack for a day or so, you are taking a greater risk.
- If you choose a soft cheese because they are just so yummy, and keep a bit for Ron, that is also going to be a greater risk than choosing one of the many, almost equally delicious, hard cheeses.
- Each time you go into a toilet, and only give your hands a cursory rinse, you are more likely to be carrying a pathogen, and the same is true when you don't wash your hands before you have any meal or handle food in a kitchen.
As for collecting and consuming ground water without any treatment, I once would have thought that no reasonable person would have ever contemplated that. If you are inclined to heed the advice of those who say you only need to carry a couple of 500ml bottles, consider carrying one of the readily available water treatment tablets. A slide of 25 Micropur Forte tablets can treat 25 litres of water, and in a small ziploc bag weighs less than 10 g. In 30 minutes, you will have water treated for bacteria and viruses (but not giardia, which requires two hours of contact for treatment).
Outside of Catalonia, all milk is pasteurized by law. This was confirmed by @Rebekah Scott in an response earlier in this thread.Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.
Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.Filters do not filter out pesticides and other chemicals
Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.
Just curious: how did you arrive at this almost definite conclusion: “it is almost definitely not ... raw milk”.
If we did that, there would be nothing left except those microscopic squigglies that cause us to barf and poop uncontrollably as we toil across the endless, boring mesetaWouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide. Most people don't seem to appreciate the dangers of this chemical compound to our daily lives. And it is in all our water. See https://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for why we should be working on this more urgently.
Oh but they can! Another use for the dry bags.Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide.
I wouldn't drink unpasteurised milk even then, you can't tell by loking at the cow whether it is carrying TB, brucellosis or several other very nasty diseases. Even the herds in the UK which are very carefully kept and inspected so that they can sell unpasteurized milk occasionally test positive for various things. To me it's not worth the risk.Where did you get unpasteurized milk?
To me, being careful would include not drinking unpasteurized milk at all unless, maybe, if I saw the cow being milked on the spot.
A metal plate should do it. Though the size needs to accurate, they are easy to find pretty much everywhere - called in everyday English a 'cap.'Wouldn't it be good if they could filter out di-hydrogen monoxide.
Unpasteurized hard cheese is not a problem because the aciditiy and the bacteria that turn it into cheese also suppress most of the unwanted bacteria.
Aging and maintaining the right salinity and acidity can reduce the risk apparently, but don't eliminate it completely.Unpasteurized hard cheese is not a problem because the aciditiy and the bacteria that turn it into cheese also suppress most of the unwanted bacteria.
Mostly by drowning. But one would look seriously ridiculous if they walked the Camino wearing a PFD.Don't laugh , di- hydrogen monoxide kills many thousands of people worldwide each year.
Trabadelo. "Not guaranteed". Peg and I just came down from the Pradelo (?) route and she was ahead of me and drank about half a liter by the time I got to the fountain. "This water is great. Want some?" "No" I said as I poured the water out and pointed to the sign. Peg got really worried as she had earlier gotten very sick near Carrion. A local woman came up with bottles that she filled at the fountain and told us the water was fine. If towns put up similar signs on the fountains they can get away with paying for periodic water testing.I remember at least one fountain in a village - perhaps Trabadelo? - where it said something like "this water is not controlled" or similar, I don't recall the exact words.
There was a flu going around at that time. Both my friend and I (and room mates and many others) had a 24 hour flu. It pays to be careful about what you eat and drink. Not everyone has been reading these postings for a while, so I do think it is fair to warn people. Fore warned is fore armed. There is nothing fun about being ill while walking the Camino. Nothing. Thanks for letting folks know.Are you sure about the source of your food poisoning? We walked last September-October and a very large number of pilgrims (including me) became very ill in or around that area. There were many different theories about what had caused this. A lot of people believed that the water in the area was bad and those who had consistently drunk bottled water has escaped the problems. Hope you are well now.
I think a french bloke called Pasteur was advised that wine was the safest drink.Or vino tinto....
It's why many of us hiking the trail in 2017 referred to it as "Vulture Town." In the same way we referred to Zariquiegui (before Alto del Perdón) as, simply, "Z Town." All seemed to understood what was being referenced.The thing about gastroenteritis is that it is hard to know when and how you ingested something tainted. Some germs show symptoms within an hour, others take a few days and a few take over a week to become symptomatic. This being said, I have noticed several (anecdotal) posts over the last couple of years from people getting sick in or shortly after Carrion de Los Condes. I'm also wondering if there is a water issue in that area.
(ps - does anybody else picture a buzzard/condor feeding on roadkill (dead animal) when they hear the name "Carrion de Los Condes"?)
Weird. I got sick on the Camino too! Two days after leaving Carrion. I didn’t want to believe it because my stay there was absolutely blessed, but right before I left I purchased a little loaf of bread with a sausage inside at the bakery across from the park next to the church of Santa Maria. Two days later I was vomiting in the backyard of an albergue. I blamed the meal at the albergue, but now I’m wondering if my gut (no pun intended) was right and it really was the sausage.On my first camino, I was very sick indeed after eating trout at a restaurant in Carrion. This was the subject of my very first post on this forum. I wanted to warn others about this restaurant. The moderators took exception to my "naming and shaming". Over the five or so years since then, I have heard of many such gastro incidents in the area of Carrion and Terradillos. Perhaps it doesn't originate in one particular restaurant, but there is obviously something dodgy about the water in this area. I will be there again in a week's time and intend to be very careful what I eat and to drink only bottled water.
Absolutely, Doug,I could find nothing but UHT milk when I walked and having had an involvement in food safety control issues in a previous life, the causal effects of such illnesses really need a lot more work. However I’m a bit disturbed at the faith some people put it bottled water. There has been quite extensive testing here at least and I understand elsewhere showing that bottled waters in many cases simply don’t meet the standards healthwise of tap water, and are often not “free” of the various contaminants people are concerned about. In a recent case, the only product which complied with health standards was Fiji water, which was also the most expensive and tested exactly thecsame as tap water so one could speculate on its source!That is my experience as well, but the fact that some of us have avoided becoming unwell does not prove there is no problem.
Unfortunately, it would require a pretty detailed analysis of where and what we ate and drank compared to those who became unwell to start to isolate potential sources. None of individually can do that, which makes suggesting that the cause lies in something particular mere speculation. Or, as @falcon269 observed earlier, we are at risk of falling into a post hoc fallacy.
Does this refer to the Spanish/EU market or to other markets? I've seen Fiji water in the United States and perhaps in a fancy restaurant here in Europe once or twice but have never noticed it in supermarkets and certainly not in Spain.In a recent case, the only product which complied with health standards was Fiji water, which was also the most expensive and tested exactly the same as tap water so one could speculate on its source!
The problem is with natural mineral waters/untreated spring waters and “in their natural state” is a possible cause for concern. Frequently they are promoted as “free” from various contaminants which are nonetheless present as trace elements or even in some cases at levels well above those permitted in town water supplies.Does this refer to the Spanish/EU market or to other markets? I've seen Fiji water in the United States and perhaps in a fancy restaurant here in Europe once or twice but have never noticed it in supermarkets and certainly not in Spain.
I see that 95% of the bottled water sold in Spain is natural mineral water - that's definitely different from tap water. The other 5% is spring water and treated water which is similar to tap water.
Interesting figures that are floating around the net: Spain ranks fourth in the EU in terms of production of mineral water, behind Germany, Italy and France, and third in consumption per capita, after Italy and Germany. About 60% of people in Spain prefer bottled mineral water because they don't like the taste of their tap water (there's nothing wrong with their tap water as such).
And the claim (where I don't know whether it's true or not) that "Europe has one of the world's most effective and strict legal frameworks which ensures that naturally sourced waters reach consumers in their original state."
I became very sick after drinking some “fresh” (unpasteurized) leche caliente. Be careful! This put an end to my hike through the Meseta.
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