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GoFundMe?

hal_cpt

Wandering South African in Gelderland
Camino(s) past & future
Past: Frances (2013),Portugues (2017)
Future: St Olav (Norway) (2019), VF (2022)
Gosh, this topic has inspired some heated discussion. I'm reading with interest because I'm planning a full VF for a couple of years' time, when I finish my PhD. This will probably be the only time before retirement when I can take that amount of time off -- and it comes at the end of a period where I'm earning just enough to get by - so although I can save probably 70-80% of what I need, the thought of trying crowdfund the remaining 20-30% had occurred to me.

It would certainly never occur to me to expect people to just pay for my time out and get nothing in return. So if I go that route it'll be more a patreon-style arrangement, where they received something for their contribution.

Some people seem to firmly think this is "unacceptable" -- I wonder what they would make of the life of St Francis and his troupe of merry eccentrics and holy grifters.
 

hal_cpt

Wandering South African in Gelderland
Camino(s) past & future
Past: Frances (2013),Portugues (2017)
Future: St Olav (Norway) (2019), VF (2022)
Do you have any ideas about what that something might be? If so please post.
It's very speculative / tentative for now -- we're still looking about 3 years ahead. But since I write and photograph, something along the lines of a book of reflections or a calendar - some way to share the experience with people who made it possible. Video would possibly also be involved. Maybe also postcards from the route...

It may end up quite unnecessary and I would far rather not rely on a method like this, but life is full of uncertainties; for example I'm finding myself taking a bigger share of some family obligations that I had necessarily anticipated -- which is fine, but I just don't want to close off possibilities.
 

Rebekah Scott

Camino Busybody
Camino(s) past & future
Many, various, and continuing.
it is interesting to me to see how the Haves (those who have money) feel obliged to judge the character, motives, and worthiness of the Have-Nots (those who need money). I am most intrigued by people who refuse to give to someone because they cannot control what is done with the donation -- the presumption they will spend it on drugs or alcohol, or admin!
Being a responsible steward of one´s resources is fine. But using charitable giving to control the behavior of others? Nope. IMHO that´s not "giving." That´s manipulation. And damned arrogant, too.
 

Robo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
it is interesting to me to see how the Haves (those who have money) feel obliged to judge the character, motives, and worthiness of the Have-Nots (those who need money). I am most intrigued by people who refuse to give to someone because they cannot control what is done with the donation -- the presumption they will spend it on drugs or alcohol, or admin!
Being a responsible steward of one´s resources is fine. But using charitable giving to control the behavior of others? Nope. IMHO that´s not "giving." That´s manipulation. And damned arrogant, too.
Wise words.

It reminds me of some of the guys selling the 'Big Issue' in Sydney.
Basically it's a magazine that homeless people buy for say $1 (not sure) and resell at $5.
That way they are not 'begging' and it gives them a greater degree of dignity I guess in seeking support.

I've had some amazing conversations with some of those guys, most of whom have suffered awful circumstances to end up where they are.

We are often too quick to judge others. Myself included :(
 

lizlane

Small Town Girl, Small Town World
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2019
I find this totally unacceptable. Go Fund Me sites are intended to support people who are experiencing unforeseen situations and tragedies in their lives; NOT to finance activities.
Well sadly in America, teachers are expected to fund classroom projects from their own pocketbooks. I have a friend who teaches Special Education and she and another teacher used GoFundMe to raise monies for a much needed piece of playground equipment that benefited their class and everyone that has come after. At that time, I could not afford to give. While it is more blessed to give than to recieve, to have the means to give is indeed a blessing and being so blessed comes with duty and responsibility. So I think it is good that we can have a forum to exchange ideas about when, why and how without controversy. Since writing is the only way we can share our experiences we do run into the "boasting" area the OP didn't care for.

Kickstarter is another on-line site that is used more for launching businesses, finishing projects, etc. Successful Kickstarters DO offer something in return and usually different things at different levels of giving. In either site, no matter what size contribution you ask for, you are required to meet the goal in a certain length of time or you get nothing. The teachers got the playground equipment but as another member pointed out she wasn't able to help sway the cost of cremation for her mother. Was it a failure to give? Or a failure to care?

I donated recently to Peacable Projects, directly as a result of this thread. I'm sharing, not boasting of this, because after years of reading hundreds of threads of which Rebekkah Scott has been involved with, I know she is ethical. I know she has organized people and gone out and picked up toilet paper and trash along the Camino and I TRUST what was given will allow her donativo to continue doing good work for pilgrims and keeping the Camino clean and green. I wish it could have been more.

We are given the seeds to sow. That's the easy part. The hard part comes when the garden needs weeding. We all love a harvest. Celebrating the harvest is a universal theme throughout cultures and aeons. People still need a reason to celebrate. It's why we have birthdays, anniversaries, weddings and even pilgrimages. But my dad gardened and he loved tending it. Pulling the weeds out, taking off the bad fruit, every aspect. I found much of what I learned boring at the time but still he showed me. My favorite job was picking the veggies and the fruit because I knew eating them was right behind that. Daddy knew I was impatient, knew I didn't like the growing/maturing process but he sowed anyway. Why? Because he knew I would be an amazed wondrous girl at the harvest. It is the same with our heavenly Father/Mother/Creator. One day the seeds become ours. How we spread them is up to us. Spread them too thinly, you risk nothing germinating. Lay them too thick and nothing can grow.

Personally I think we need to realize that it's not about the Haves/Have Nots. In giving, there is only the Cads/Cads Nots. And even if the person asking you to give is a Cad, imagine how impoverished you have to be ask someone else for money, even if you don't need it, ESPECIALLY if you don't need it. So sew a seed or two or three. It won't break your bank and if you have any conception of heaven, you will never know what your giving gave birth to until the after-life. We will see then how the Divine Intelligence, the entity I choose to call God, used my mistakes and right choices for good.

My long-winded point is this. We are all stewards. We can give/not give. We can cause the rain to fall or not. I will give. I believe in the goodness of people despite evidence to the contrary. That's not wisdom. That's hope.

And I still wouldn't contibute to the Camino of someone who has seen it and walked it. I would rather figure out how much wine I might drink on my Camino and give that instead to the donatavios.

I
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
And I still wouldn't contibute to the Camino of someone who has seen it and walked it. I would rather figure out how much wine I might drink on my Camino and give that instead to the donatavios.
But the wine comes free with pilgrim meals and you can't get the money back if you decide not to drink it.
 

davebugg

"When I Have Your Wounded" - Dustoff Motto
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances...
Sept. 2017: SJPdP to Burgos
Sept./Oct. 2018: SJPdP to Santiago de Compostela
Hi @davebugg,

I really like your super logical approach to giving, I must admit mine is far more scattergun- lifeboats because they rescued my dad when he was young, the blind as my mother lost her sight in old age etc. One thing you may want to consider though, which I was certainly ignorant of, or rather hadn't though about, is the headline "percentage of every dollar is used to fulfill their stated mission." is not in and of itself a measure of value.

A good friend of mine who has worked almost her entire life in the charity sector as well as running a charity of her own pointed out to me when I raised the question of how much of a donation goes directly to the cause that just as you spend time deciding where a dollar would be best used, charities must do the same and this requires some admin. To this end a charity may take a bigger percentage in admin costs but still deliver a bigger bang for your buck than those who are less judicious with their spending. Ugh, long sentence.

Anyway just a thought,

Rob.
Thanks for that thought, Rob. I am sensitive to the issue of overhead from one of my first jobs after college, which was as a Volunteer Coordinator staff person for the American Cancer Society.

One of the many things I learned from being there is similar to what you stated, which sort of boils down to 'it takes money to make money'.

A high level of staff and salaries, by itself, does not indicate a problem with a charity or its mission. The indication is the rate of return for the Administrative overhead. If it costs $2.5 million a year in overhead, but the return is $4 million in donations, that is money well spent. In the world of charities and their missions and objectives, the percentage of donations being used to fulfill the mission is one key. The other key, and this is where your observation is in play, is how much leverage can the charity get out of each dollar.

Example: Two charities with identical objectives decides to buy the same quantity of powdered milk. Charity One has a 10% rate of overhead. Charity Two has a 25% rate. However, Charity One spends $10,000 dollars for a single cargo container of the powdered milk, while Charity Two manages to get not one, but two cargo containers of powdered milk for the same amount of money.

So, who is giving the best bang for every charity dollar? The above example is a large part of what one needs to examine. Great job for pointing this out, Rob. 👍
 
Camino(s) past & future
2015 Frances, 2017 Frances, (2019 ???)
Without malice but as a point of personal observation, I view that type of GoFundMe as Social Media Begging.

For some things -- like medical care bills -- it can be a Godsend as an avenue for fund raising. However, for a lot of the 'personal fulfillment desires' that are begging for funds, it is no different in my mind, than someone who is standing on a street corner, signs displayed, asking for money. Or of beggars seeking money along the Caminos.

It is legal, as is some allowable street side begging, so it is what it is. Let the taxing authorities decide if this is considered 'income' or not. :)
S
 
Camino(s) past & future
C. Frances (Sept-Nov 2016)
C. Frances (Sept 2019)
it is interesting to me to see how the Haves (those who have money) feel obliged to judge the character, motives, and worthiness of the Have-Nots (those who need money). I am most intrigued by people who refuse to give to someone because they cannot control what is done with the donation -- the presumption they will spend it on drugs or alcohol, or admin!
Being a responsible steward of one´s resources is fine. But using charitable giving to control the behavior of others? Nope. IMHO that´s not "giving." That´s manipulation. And damned arrogant, too.
Couldn’t agree more and thank you for saying this.
 

Dorpie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago to Finisterre to Muxia 2013
Camino Frances May 2015
Camino Frances July 2017
it is interesting to me to see how the Haves (those who have money) feel obliged to judge the character, motives, and worthiness of the Have-Nots (those who need money). I am most intrigued by people who refuse to give to someone because they cannot control what is done with the donation -- the presumption they will spend it on drugs or alcohol, or admin!
Being a responsible steward of one´s resources is fine. But using charitable giving to control the behavior of others? Nope. IMHO that´s not "giving." That´s manipulation. And damned arrogant, too.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, it's eminently possible to be judicious without judging. It's not (at least for me) a matter of controlling what people do but rather deciding where my pretty limited funds can be best used. In making that decision I have to make some choices, that's just the reality in a world of need.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago and beyond (own way + voie de Tours + CF + Gulf of Biscay + English Channel)
it's entirely possible to be judicious without judging. [...] I have to make some choices, that's just the reality in a world of need.
I agree. And I see two strands in this thread: People sharing about their charitable donations (or lack thereof) and their own reasons for doing so. And people trying to impose their ideas about the ethics of charitable donating on others (you must not mention it at all, you must not mention any sums, you must not question what the recipient might do with a donation). I learn from the former and it makes me sometimes reflect on what I'm doing or not doing or could be doing. As to the latter, it just reinforces my strong will to be independent of their prteaching. ☺
 
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amocatnerak

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances April 2018
I have no issue with making charitable contributions, be it time or money. However, I would not give money to a random stranger to fund what is essentially their vacation. I have enough trouble trying to fund my own vacations!
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese.
I am interested in what happens to money I give to the extent that I do not want that donation to do evil - and I'm not talking about moral judgements or self destructive behaviours, but obvious evil.

The clearest example I can give is the horrible trade in children in Cambodia, to fill orphanages. That trade has arisen because of well-intended donations by wealthy westerners. "Some Cambodian orphanages purchase local children from economically disadvantaged families and subject them to malnutrition and unclean living conditions in their facilities for the purpose of attracting and profiting from charitable donations"; 2018 Trafficking in Persons Report - Cambodia.

Then there is the question of whether it is better to give to a charity (which may entrench a problem) or to a body, such as a political organisation, that is committed to overcome the basic causes of that problem.

It is pretty easy to give pocket money to beggars and pan handlers! No questions asked.
 

Philip Hartney

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2018 - first time
I walked my first Camino last year, from SJPdP to Santiago in 30 days.
I raised GBP 17k for cancer related charities, being close to my heart as I have a terminal prognosis.
I never asked one person on my journey for a contribution.
All the money went straight to the charities.
I paid all of my own costs.
I have no issue with this.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2006) portugues(2013)San Salvador (2017)
My thoughts on gofundme for a camino? Not on my list of donations. Unless for someone raising money for a charity, yes. I would consider firstly the people I know personally, then people known by people I know personally, for national charities for specific health related realities. As a frequent responder says, hope this helps.
 

Robo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
[QUOTE="davebugg, post: 717101, member: 67185"
My family gives a lot of money each year to 501c3 charities. We are pretty strict about the number of charities that we donate to. Jill and I evaluate which 5 charities to invest in during October for the coming year. Even charities that we've donated to in the past. We examine their performance both in projects or goals completed, the progress toward the same, and what percentage of every dollar is used to fulfill their stated mission.
Hi @davebugg,

A good friend of mine who has worked almost her entire life in the charity sector as well as running a charity of her own pointed out to me when I raised the question of how much of a donation goes directly to the cause that just as you spend time deciding where a dollar would be best used, charities must do the same and this requires some admin. To this end a charity may take a bigger percentage in admin costs but still deliver a bigger bang for your buck than those who are less judicious with their spending. Ugh, long sentence.

Rob.

[/QUOTE]

This is always a bit of a struggle for me. I have spoken to a lot of people in the charity 'industry' and in the case of some of the really big ones, as little as 30% gets through to those in need. Overheads, marketing, people rattling tins dressed up in Koala suits etc etc.

A few years ago I found a charity organisation that guarantees that every cent given goes to those in need. It's all audited. And they have access to projects all over the World.

But the big guys still need support too I guess.
 

Dorpie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago to Finisterre to Muxia 2013
Camino Frances May 2015
Camino Frances July 2017
[/QUOTE]
A few years ago I found a charity organisation that guarantees that every cent given goes to those in need. It's all audited. And they have access to projects all over the World.
[/QUOTE]

That seems patently impossible. How do they deliver whatever they give to whoever needs it? how do they print documents? how do they pay for the audit????
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I am learning from all the many sides of this discussion and don’t have anything well formed to say on the topic yet. But I did want to point out that for those of you concerned about how the money you donate is spent, Charity Navigator is a well-established and respected organization that rates charities based on their audits of the books of thousands of organizations.

I first used it years ago when someone told me that the group I was using to make donations in honor of grandkids’ births had a really bad rating, spending a very high % on salaries and administrative costs (like lavish fundraisers that don’t recoup the costs). I got on the site and found the International Rescue Committee, which does essentially the same thing and has a **** rating.

 

Robo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
A few years ago I found a charity organisation that guarantees that every cent given goes to those in need. It's all audited. And they have access to projects all over the World.
[/QUOTE]

That seems patently impossible. How do they deliver whatever they give to whoever needs it? how do they print documents? how do they pay for the audit????
[/QUOTE]

Indeed I wondered the same thing when I joined 6 years ago. But they fund the overhead from:

  1. Supporting Business Partners, who pay a membership to join (I'm one). This gives them access to almost 1,000 charities have that have been fully audited and gone through a strict due diligence process. (ensuring all donations go to those in need)
  2. Direct Donations from some major corporations.
  3. And the CEO is a well known coach and motivational type speaker who earns money that way to assist in keeping things running.
It was basically set up for small business owners who wanted to divert part of their business income to charity, and have the option of choosing many different causes to support.

I won't mention the name of the organisation. The only point in raising it was to point out that there are other models out there.
 

Dorpie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago to Finisterre to Muxia 2013
Camino Frances May 2015
Camino Frances July 2017
A few years ago I found a charity organisation that guarantees that every cent given goes to those in need. It's all audited. And they have access to projects all over the World.
That seems patently impossible. How do they deliver whatever they give to whoever needs it? how do they print documents? how do they pay for the audit????
[/QUOTE]

Indeed I wondered the same thing when I joined 6 years ago. But they fund the overhead from:

  1. Supporting Business Partners, who pay a membership to join (I'm one). This gives them access to almost 1,000 charities have that have been fully audited and gone through a strict due diligence process. (ensuring all donations go to those in need)
  2. Direct Donations from some major corporations.
  3. And the CEO is a well known coach and motivational type speaker who earns money that way to assist in keeping things running.
It was basically set up for small business owners who wanted to divert part of their business income to charity, and have the option of choosing many different causes to support.

I won't mention the name of the organisation. The only point in raising it was to point out that there are other models out there.
[/QUOTE]

So they use donations that have a monetary value but are in the form of services. Sounds like a distinction without a difference.

Sorry, not trying to get at you, just understand how it works.
 

Thornley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances x 2 , Norte x 2 , Le Puy x 3 , Portuguese x 2,
Mont St Michel , Primitivo .
It reminds me of some of the guys selling the 'Big Issue' in Sydney.
Basically it's a magazine that homeless people buy for say $1 (not sure) and resell at $5.
I give then $2 Robo , their commission for each , and don't take the magazine.
They are very special people
 

J F Gregory

Portugal Central - October 2019
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (March-April,2016) finished, (October 2019) Portuguese Central Route.
I have worked in the 'human services' field for 47 years. I have seen all sorts of needy people, some asking for assistance and others never would because their pride wouldn't allow it. We now live in a society of people who believe they are owed everything with out earning it. "Go fund me' is another way of communicating need or wants. I would never use it, I am 68 and still working, so I save my money to travel. In the last 18 months I have been to Poland, Czech Republic, Iraq and Liberia West Africa. I am planning my next Camino for this coming October. Yet, if I feel there is a legitimate need to help someone I will even if they need assistance to walk the Camino.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/?/Invierno ('19)
That seems patently impossible. How do they deliver whatever they give to whoever needs it? how do they print documents? how do they pay for the audit????
It's called generosity. An auditor who works for free. People on the ground who are dedicated volunteers, who pay their own way - taking no salary beyond the joy that results from doing something to benefit other people.
Such organizations do exist, @Dorpie .

And @Robo's example is another way to go about it, on a bigger scale than can be done with a few (or several) volunteers.
With generosity at its core...
the CEO is a well known coach and motivational type speaker who earns money that way to assist in keeping things running.
 

Dorpie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago to Finisterre to Muxia 2013
Camino Frances May 2015
Camino Frances July 2017
It's called generosity. An auditor who works for free. People on the ground who are dedicated volunteers, who pay their own way - taking no salary beyond the joy that results from doing something to benefit other people.
Such organizations do exist, @Dorpie .

And @Robo's example is another way to go about it, on a bigger scale than can be done with a few (or several) volunteers.
With generosity at its core...
We're so far off topic now I should really just drop this but my desire to feel right (even if I'm not) is getting the better of me. Please forgive me.

Without knowing the exact nature of the charity in @Robo's example it's hard to provide counterpoints so instead I'll use an example that I think would apply to a large proportion of all but the smallest charities. Even though as a charity you're providing some good or service to the benefactor for free you still have a duty of care; if you're providing food it mustn't be poisoned, if you're doing medical procedures they should not be done negligently, if you're giving people electrical goods they mustn't short circuit and burn a building down. So.....pretty much any charity of any size needs to have liability insurance. I'd be shocked if there's an insurance company on earth that's prepared to provide millions of dollars, pounds, euros worth of insurance for free. I was volunteering for my cousin's charity in South Africa a few years back when someone in one of the other volunteer's care was run over, an accident, but an accident ultimately down to us, without insurance it would have been game over for the charity.

So maybe, just maybe it's possible for a charity to work with zero running costs but I'd have to be convinced that it was a good way to operate.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/?/Invierno ('19)
Even though as a charity you're providing some good or service to the benefactor for free you still have a duty of care
Fair enough, @Dorpie, but direct financial support requires no insurance.
Donations can be channeled directly to recipients, with voluntary work to effect that flow and to monitor it. This isn't a hypothetical example, but an actual thing - a whole lot of things can get built and done this way.
 

Robo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
Fair enough, @Dorpie, but direct financial support requires no insurance.
Donations can be chanelled directly to recipients, with voluntary work to effect that flow and to monitor it. This isn't a hypothetical example, but an actual thing - a whole lot of things can get built and done this way.
Exactly. Sorry I raised it............ :oops:
It's always fraught with danger raising the issue of charitable giving, as we expose ourselves to critique over our motives and why we mentioned it in the first place.
But in the end, it's about those who have the means, helping those in need. Period........
It's just a good thing to do.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/Francés ('16)
Baztanés/Francés ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/?/Invierno ('19)
Sorry I raised it............ :oops:
It's always fraught with danger raising the issue of charitable giving, as we expose ourselves to critique over our motives and why we mentioned it in the first place.
But in the end, it's about those who have the means, helping those in need. Period........
It's just a good thing to do.
Thank you for raising it, @Robo. You can hold you head high.
Being generous and sharing how to be generous should not be a fraught topic.
And if people critique your motives, well, that's their issue, and their problem. Nothing to do with you.
🙏
 

David Tallan

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (1989 and 2016), Portugues - from Porto (2018)
I have no issue with making charitable contributions, be it time or money. However, I would not give money to a random stranger to fund what is essentially their vacation. I have enough trouble trying to fund my own vacations!
I can see where you are coming from. For some, however, I think "vacation" is not the word I would use to describe their Camino. I can think of situations where I would absolutely fund the Caminos of strangers and not think of them as essentially vacations. To provide just one example - supporting veterans on Caminos. In this case, I think it ends up being more therapy than vacation.

On the other hand, I could imagine seeing a plea for some senior citizen who had worked 60 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year for their whole life without a vacation and being willing to contribute to their first vacation. I've had plenty.
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
I can see where you are coming from. For some, however, I think "vacation" is not the word I would use to describe their Camino. I can think of situations where I would absolutely fund the Caminos of strangers and not think of them as essentially vacations. To provide just one example - supporting veterans on Caminos. In this case, I think it ends up being more therapy than vacation.

On the other hand, I could imagine seeing a plea for some senior citizen who had worked 60 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year for their whole life without a vacation and being willing to contribute to their first vacation. I've had plenty.
@David Tallan
I agree. The camino walk for veterans with PTSD whose caminos I helped to fund was arranged by another veteran, at that time a forum member, who had walked the Frances and found it helpful for his own recovery from some of his experiences in the military. I think that I am willing, though not always able, to help to fund arranged caminos for persons whose handicaps make it impossible for them to go on their own and may not be able to pay for the range of services needed. I go as a pilgrim and have been blessed by the experiences which I had, so I consider it a good deed to help others to share this experience, who might be physically or mentally unable to do so without support. But for me this is a different issue from just not being able to get the money together to go when they want to.
 

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